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primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Reductionism |
Greetings. I have only recently discovered this site and I'm impressed. I have read many of the postings old and new and found a lot of worthwhile questions and discussions. After spending 15 years as a 'pukka' BK I staggered off to try and work it (life) out again - back to the proverbial drawing board. It wasn't fun but fortunately I wasn't burdened by guilt - after 15 years of busting my guts for god and kingdom I figured it just didn't work. And if I still deserved to be tortured by dharamraj after all the effort that I made, well, it just had to be unjust. So then I decided it would be useful to just go and find out what is known for a fact - as opposed to taking a wish-list based belief system for fact (aka truth). So I went off to do a psychology degree. Very interesting! One of the many things I learned is actually how people think. The vast volumes of research that has been done in the name of psychology and sociology is stunning - and it can be taken seriously. As a BK, psychology was dismissed as silly because god had told us all about mind, intellect and sanskars and so that, in effect, was that. Interestingly, psychology presents us with empirical data, that continues to grow, and it mentions a wee thing called reductionism - the tendency of human beings to reduce information to fit a simple theory. It is in the way we think, and we all do it. When we are presented with a new fact, or new information, we will make it fit our existing world view or belief system. Thus we can take a very tiny theory on life, such as the one the BK's present as 'gods knowledge' , and then make all incoming information fit. The BK philosophy is so limited (7 one hour lessons and there you have it) that it is almost impossible to find contradictions - there is just not enough content for material to clash. It is so nebulous and non-specific that it becomes quite flexible - you can answer almost any question on life with it. Thus our tendency to reductionism is very dangerous (to ourselves) - we can explain our life experience and life in general far too easily. We can even explain why we are not happy (although we found god and got a ticket to heaven and are the most important people in the history of time) - the burden of karma, "o how impure this soul must be!". Too easy, too simple, and in fact, too stupid. But then, this is the process of all cults. Yes, I do believe, in retrospect, that the Brahma Kumaris is a cult. It fits the cult profile and I know 4 BK's who have suicided that unfortunately didn't work that out. Does anyone remember BK Ranjana Patel from London? One of the pukka surrendered sisters who read murli in London class back in the early 80's - she spent 3 months on a slab in a morgue before some astute BK saw her dead body advertised in the paper captioned 'does anyone know this person?' Within a couple of years, her very sweet brother Sharad threw himself under a train on the London underground. Welcome to the Brahma Kumaris. They will seperate you from everyone you know and love and then abandon you if you can't carry on anymore. Never mind - for everyone that leaves ten more will come (quote from the murli, in case that line has been edited too). This is cult behaviour! And just a footnote - in answer to questions raised in the forum - it is Rajubhai who edited the murli (I assume he still does) a role he was given by Manohar Didi, who was given the role by Brahma Baba. Who obviously wasn't always happy with what he had said! Thus the muli goes from destruction in 50 - 60 years, to 60 - 70, and now will change to 70 - 80. It is also half the original length. And we only get the last 5 years of sakar murlis. Officially, this is because all the knowledge had been 'delivered' by 1964 when Mama died of cancer at 42. Unofficially, it is because for most of the sakar years everyone, including Brahma Baba, believed he was god. Now Rajubhai would have had fun editing that out wouldn't he!
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Reductionism |
Hi P.L., Thanks for that meaningful first post! I hadn't heard about R's brother... sounds awful. Their parents must have been devastated, whatever problems they must have had themselves..... Trains have been a popular way to end one's life in Japan in a culture with high expectations on behavior and absent the ability or culture to accept (and hence to feel welcome to reveal) aspects of oneself that do not fit those expectations. What really irked me about R's case was learning that she had tried desperately to get an audience with Dadi Janki, who had for some reason (????) refused to make time for her. And then neither D.J. nor others around seem to have the honest pain or reflection about events to talk publicly about what happened, to admit their failures, to say how BKs could be more supportive, or at least to admit our inadequacy to meet with emotionally honesty those individuals who are deeply disturbed and to recommend their getting skilled help. So what is up when the public face of a group is more important than the well-being of its members? Well, I asked that 12 years ago, and am now happy to have been away from the group as long as I was with them. Now I'm glad the method didn't "work" for me... this failure--and recognizing it--seems to me to have been a success, a kind of hitting rock bottom, to borrow the 12-step language. Funny how the contradictions and cognitive dissonance in the group stand out like a throbbingly broken thumb to me now, yet the great cadre of foreign BKs whose intellects I so admire(d) can accept it all, sweep it all under that inexhaustibly capacious Karma Carpet(tm) and come out with smiling pearls of positive thinking. Karl Marx famously called religion "the opiate of the people" yet neither his followers nor the so-called 'capitalists' representing the apparent polar opposites of his followers, nor the leaders of any church of mass popularity, nor anyone who has approached the halls of power seems to have been able to avoid this necessity: to conceal the ugly details and put on a happy face for the masses, offering simplistic solutions. Perhaps rather than rocking on my "This is WRONG" hobby horse, I should be more philosophical,... that such behavior is inevitable, human, mammalian... even seems to work in uniting people in mass action. Well, glad to hear you have got a life. Welcome and I hope to hear more.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: Welcome PL |
Primal.Logic, The ironic twist in giving one such high praise/promise and then discarding the value/memory of such a dear soul...is daunting. Primal.Logic
Quote:
One of the pukka surrendered sisters who read murli in London class back in the early 80's - she spent 3 months on a slab in a morgue before some astute BK saw her dead body advertised in the paper captioned 'does anyone know this person?' Within a couple of years, her very sweet brother Sharad threw himself under a train on the London underground. Welcome to the Brahma Kumaris.
As Joel states below the Senior SS's dismissal of those that have served is truly a painful experience. How easily one is dismissed/discarded when not in formation regardless of years served. Would a true mother not have time for her "CHILD" regardless of the fact that the "CHILD" no longer lived in her house? Joel,
Quote:
What really irked me about R's case was learning that she had tried desperately to get an audience with Dadi Janki, who had for some reason (????) refused to make time for her.
Regards, Tete
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
Welcome to the forum Primal Logic.
Quote:
And just a footnote - in answer to questions raised in the forum - it is Rajubhai who edited the murli (I assume he still does) a role he was given by Manohar Didi, who was given the role by Brahma Baba. Who obviously wasn't always happy with what he had said! Thus the muli goes from destruction in 50 - 60 years, to 60 - 70, and now will change to 70 - 80. It is also half the original length. And we only get the last 5 years of sakar murlis.
As some of you know I am still in lukewarm terms with BKs, they've not "banned me" (yet ). I happened to go to the centre on Saturday as there was an open public event, picked up the murli on the day. In it, it mentioned that when celebrating Shiva's birthday (as it is time of Shivrarti/ShivJayanti), you celebrate Shiva's 70th birthday, because it was 70 years since Shiva came (1936-2006). This is clear that some editing had been done. I actually asked how this could be and was told that because in some murlis, Baba used to mention names of children and some BKs got offended and so murlis are edited. OK, they can remove names of people previously mentioned who no longer apply now, but to add one's own comments (whether accurate or not) just means tampering with the original words of Shiv Baba/Brahma Baba. Whose words are whose in the murlis ?
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Reductionism |
primal.logic wrote:
we only get the last 5 years of sakar murlis....because for most of the sakar years everyone, including Brahma Baba, believed he was god.
I have never heard this before, but it would explain a lot of things Welcome to the forum primal.logic
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Reductionism |
howiemac wrote:
primal.logic wrote:
we only get the last 5 years of sakar murlis....because for most of the sakar years everyone, including Brahma Baba, believed he was god.
I have never heard this before, but it would explain a lot of things Welcome to the forum primal.logic
Probably if the stuff that happened to Dada Lehkraj happened to me, I would start thinking I was God, too.
bluewing Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 21 |
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: welcome... |
Primal.Logic welcome welcome to this supportive enlightened friendly chain !!! (needless to say that I agree w/ your post and that Australia for us in Brazil - like 18 years ago - was a 'perfect example' of how Bks should be, regarding system, happness, service...when the world comes trumbling down, you make the best of what still around...(by Sting)) Bluewing
primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
It is good to be in this forum and thanks for the interest in my posting. It seems that 'fiddling' with the murli is a sore point for many of us - if the murli was gods words why would there be any adjustment required? It is also interesting to see how sanitised the Bk history has become - in the '80s, as far as I was aware, that we only read the last 5 years of the sakar murlis was common knowledge. And that the murli was 'edited' in Madhuban was always okay because it was sanctioned by baba and therefore it must be 'beneficial' - accurate according to shrimat. Which brings me back to the original topic of reductionism - or 'reductive reasoning' - how natural it is to reduce information to fit the theory (philosophy), especially when there is an existing emotional need to believe it. I have become very interested in the mechanics of human thinking and how our processes lead us into a belief - in a divine god or money or whatever else we make our god - and how we un/consciously define our world by that belief, and ultimately limit our world by that belief, as BK's do, Al Queada do, as everyone does in one form or another. We all need an explanation of ourselves and the world, and we will all come to some type of conclusion, for better or worse. That we can adopt the explanation that the Bk's offer, and believe it, and live it despite the obstacles and grief, is entirely dependent on us being reductive in our reasoning. We have to, very intelligently and cleverly, make the facts fit the theory. Or it would be beyond belief. As an example, I remember when I started with the Bk's trying to get my head around a 5000 year cycle. All my powers of reductive reasoning were used to bring myself to the conclusion that it was acceptable as a theory and therefore as a fact!?! I actually made a decision to believe it. In reality, arguing that the world is 5000 years old is like arguing that the earth is flat. Hard facts fly in the face of a 5000 year cycle - you only have to research the history of language and text to see history is very different to the history presented by the Bk's (in one hour). With my powers of reductive reasoning finely tuned I was able to change fantasy into truth from then on. It also enabled me to take correlations and convert them into causes, which effectively gave desired meaning to random events. In Psychology it is so taboo to link correlated events and suggest one is a cause of the other, yet this is such an integral part of human thinking that is so detrimental to clear understanding - a classic example is the Bk philosophy of karma. I spoke angrily to a bank clerk on monday and on thursday I lose my credit card. Must be karma - "these things seem related and since I believe in karma it must be true", or at the very least we fear it to be true. (So we promise we won't be angry with bank clerks anymore, feel guilty and deserving of the punishment, and a spiritual loser because we broke shrimat and got angry in the first place. Damned to the Silver Age!) Actually, the correlation = cause is all in our heads, according to our faulty thinking processes and embellished by our imagination. The data is, the facts are, I got angry with a bank clerk (sorry) and on a seperate unrelated occaision I lost my credit card. Two seperate facts. No correlation exists except in our heads. And correlation never equalled cause in the first place!!! Der. How magnificently reductive do we have to be to pull this one off? So I guess the next question is why I/we so desperately needed to believe something that we were prepared to sacrafice everything and be inculted in the first place?
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
Quote:
So I guess the next question is why I/we so desperately needed to believe something that we were prepared to sacrafice everything and be inculted in the first place?
This question has come up several times before, expressed with varying degrees of anger and bewilderment. Spiritual fatigue, maybe? Or a romantic fascination with things Eastern? It's good to have a psychologist in the house! Thanks for the postings. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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