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Common Sense Guest |
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:03 am Post subject: Still blaming "Mummy"? |
Dear friends, I came across this chat by chance, as I was surfing the internet. For a long time I chose to be actively involved with the BKs. At present, not any more. During that time I met many wonderful people with whom we became lifelong friends; I also met cranky freaks, fundamentalists or simply people that I didn't want to hang around with. With those I kept my distances. The choice was mine, as it still is with the people I meet everyday. I read many messages in this chat, mostly those sent by ex BKs. Their experiences are very interesting and to some I can relate. Yet, I cannot refrain from wondering: why don't you carry on with your lives? All these complaints and discussions about whether the murlis are being properly revised, whether Shiva is together with Brahma in Dadi's Gulzar body, or even whether Dadi Gulzar wears. a diaper (!!!!), are signs of persons who still react to the idea of undertaking the responsibility of the self and "need" to be saved by someone else. It's like the complaints of a child because "mummy was not good enough". OK, so "mummy" did not act according to our expectations or maybe she was indeed "bad". But now, supposedly, we are grown-ups. So what do we do? Do we return and get stuck in childhood trying to "fix mummy" or do we carry on with our lives, enriched by the realizations and the lessons of the past? Seeking for the absolute truth that will make us "live happily ever after" may be OK for Cinderella, but she did not live in the real world after all. PS. From this chat I also found out about the PBKs, lead by "a poor farmer's son" (I guess he doesn't have financial problems anymore), who says that he is the incarnation of Dada Lekhraj's business partner. Well, I guess even the movement of the Brahma Kumaris did not escape the law of entropy (all things move from a state of order to a state of disorder). Still, I was relieved by the thought that I met the BK movement at its pure state and that Dada Lekhraj's motives were genuine (he was a respected figure in the Sindh society and very rich anyway - he didn't need to become a guru to make a living).
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
Interesting choice of name 'common sense'. I once worked for someone who used that term as a subtle put down. The only thing was her common sense was not the same as anybody elses who worked there. For you to not understand why people want to discuss these matters is a sign to me of your narrowness of accepting all kinds of people. Just because you don't understand doesn't make it irrelevant. You say you was in the yagya in the pure state, when was that? You speak of PBK,but do you know how long PBK has been around? I'll take a guess and say PBK was around before you became familiar with BK. Yes i agree we have to take responsibility for ourselves, but also we need help.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
Common Sense wrote:
Seeking for the absolute truth that will make us "live happily ever after" may be OK for Cinderella, but she did not live in the real world after all.
Yeah who's to say there is any kind of 'absolute truth' as the BKs claim? I certainly very much doubt it
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
Quote:
but also we need help.
What help are you searching for? By remaining fixed on the inadequacies of the BK's to give you what you needed, how is that going to help you? The only thing you can change is your own mind, yet, as 'common sense' says, you choose to hold on to something that you claim to have no empathy with. You are obviously angry, and you choose to hold on to that too. You actively feed that anger by coninually focussing on the so called 'bad things' that have been done to you. You really don't have to play the role of a victim anymore. My suspicion is that, subconsciously, you know that you haven't finished learning from the BK knowledge just yet, and that's why you hang around. with love wahl
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
Hi Wahl You said
Quote:
You actively feed that anger by coninually focussing on the so called 'bad things' that have been done to you.
Not sure what you mean by continually focussing on bad things? I don't think ive posted any bad things that have been done to me except in a mention in a reply when I was asked a question. My post to 'common sense' was to defend a right for anyone to post freely on the forum. When I said 'we all need help' I meant from some greater being or source of spiritual knowledge to understand things.
Quote:
as 'common sense' says, you choose to hold on to something that you claim to have no empathy with.
Are you getting confused or mixing up postings? Common sense addressed his post 'dear friends' he wasn't talking to me I just jumped on. I've never said I have no empathy with BK.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
Hi John, I think I was really aiming my posting at all of the many other negative postings by some other BKs, and I just got carried away in support of 'common sense's' viewpoint. Looking back on your postings, I truly apologise for aiming it at you. However, my posting does still stand.............you know who you are. om shanti wahl
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
Ok apology accepted But please try and keep your eye on the ball
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Still blaming "Mummy"? |
Common Sense wrote:
Dear friends, I read many messages in this chat, mostly those sent by ex BKs. Their experiences are very interesting and to some I can relate. Yet, I cannot refrain from wondering: why don't you carry on with your lives? All these complaints and discussions about whether the murlis are being properly revised, whether Shiva is together with Brahma in Dadi's Gulzar body, or even whether Dadi Gulzar wears. a diaper (!!!!), are signs of persons who still react to the idea of undertaking the responsibility of the self and "need" to be saved by someone else. It's like the complaints of a child because "mummy was not good enough". OK, so "mummy" did not act according to our expectations or maybe she was indeed "bad". But now, supposedly, we are grown-ups. So what do we do? Do we return and get stuck in childhood trying to "fix mummy" or do we carry on with our lives, enriched by the realizations and the lessons of the past? Seeking for the absolute truth that will make us "live happily ever after" may be OK for Cinderella, but she did not live in the real world after all.
C.S., This is the second posting I've seen from you, the first being the recent response about the person who ended her life. One thing you may not realize, C.S., in your rush to conclude posters here (and how you generalize!) are trying to 'fix mummy' is that many of us are getting on in our lives. Posting here for us may be leisure, or pleasure, or therapy or comradery. We lived many years with a code of silence where we didn't trust ourselves to speak our true thoughts and feelings. Many of us, if you took the trouble to read, have been in therapy. Many of our interactions with the BK family have taken abusive forms. Many of us took years to unwind ourselves from the idealogical/emotional tentacles that enmeshed in our brain like some alien fungus. One of us, who has a family and career, has been out of the BKs for years, took the trouble to pressure the group to acknowledge that children are subject to abuse within the organization, just as in any environment including the family home. Keeping secrets is a sign of the taboo of a toxic family system. Simply to write about things as they were, as we experienced them, is liberating for many of us. Personally, I like to write, and my time with the BKs is part of my history, just like my childhood. "Remember the days of your childhood!" Not every day was love or the joy of a party. And second, from my own leaving and from being with BKs who've left, I appreciate the trauma that many of us have gone through in deciding to leave. I have seen the manipulative cobwebs of BKs, trying to pull people back to the group in ways.... Did you see the poster of the five vices, C.S? Attachment was a woman holding a child all covered with spider webs. BKs love to talk about what a vice attachment is. Someone finds it hard to continue life with the BKs and leaves, and guess what? The BKs won't let her alone! Keep calling her, sending letters, sending photos, projecting all the old expectations and guilt: We will love you, but conditionally, if you conform to what we want you to be. Loving that has hooks in it, or judgment or self-hate embedded in it, is toxic love. Unhealthy attachment that can't let go of someone, probes for a vulnerability. Continues to judge and to hurt. Many of us are here because we or our loved ones are going through a difficult recovery. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you get on with your life, whether with people or teddy bears or Cinderellas.... or possibly, with the BKs. If you'd like to be here with us, be welcome. Feel free to share the stories that you never felt comfortable to share with the BKs. Even the good ones. The anonymous Administrator who runs this site has never kicked anyone off for telling their story. Some who proselytize shamelessly, arguing gyan and never revealing themselves, have been banished from our little garden party. Of course, they are always welcome to read.
common sense Guest |
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: Reply to Joel |
Thanks for your reply, Joel. I can see your points (I think). You are right, I generalized a lot in my post. Yet, what I had in mind when I wrote it, was something that a French psychologist, Francoise Dolto, used to say: that if a child's needs at a very young age have not been satisfied, there is no point in trying to satisfy them in the same way when the child is grown up (i.e. you don't give a 10-year old the bottles of milk you failed to give him as a baby; you rather give him the love and the attention a 10-year old needs). This idea worked for me (as a... limbo repellant!), that's why I thought to share it with "fellow-xBKs". I never thought it would upset anyone.
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Reply to Joel |
common sense wrote:
Thanks for your reply, Joel. I can see your points (I think). You are right, I generalized a lot in my post. Yet, what I had in mind when I wrote it, was something that a French psychologist, Francoise Dolto, used to say: that if a child's needs at a very young age have not been satisfied, there is no point in trying to satisfy them in the same way when the child is grown up (i.e. you don't give a 10-year old the bottles of milk you failed to give him as a baby; you rather give him the love and the attention a 10-year old needs). This idea worked for me (as a... limbo repellant!), that's why I thought to share it with "fellow-xBKs". I never thought it would upset anyone.
C.S., I understand this idea of age-appropriate love in abstract (I think) but could use an example how it has helped you as an "xBK", if you feel comfortable talking about your experiences. Pardon my ignorance, but I can't seem to even begin to imagine what a 'limbo repellent' might be. Can you explain why you have wanted to repel something in connection with meeting your love needs?
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: XBK talk |
Hi, I agree very strongly with much of what Joel says. We XBKs really do need a place to share our stories with others who will understand, and it does take time and talking to get past a trauma. However, there are many XBKs who talk so much about BK dogma that I wonder if they are really as X as they think they are. If we are XBKs why do we need to talk about the nature of Shivbaba or if the 5000 year cycle is really true, or does the law of karma really exist? I do not exclude myself from this analysis. I have started some topics on these exact subjects. But why do we do this? Sam.
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
Quote:
why do we do this?
We set out to discover the truths of the self, the world, the universe etc, but somehow it hasn't worked out....not yet. So however experienced you are/was as a BK, PBK, or as a spiritual being.....once you've set out on your journey, your mind is already a seeker. Regarding about 5000 years, karma, etc, our past knowledge of half-truths are not completed. Well maybe it's all down to ego. If you accept it, you accept it. If not, not. Call it blind faith. Call it knowledge. You ask a 4 year old the earth is flat and she'll agree. Not much ego there. Possible ego is the greatest hurdle in all spiritual endevours.
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: seeking |
Bansy wrote
Quote:
.....once you've set out on your journey, your mind is already a seeker.
Yes, you are right. Now I have started there is no turning back, BK or XBK.
common sense Guest |
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
Joel wrote:
Quote:
I can't seem to even begin to imagine what a 'limbo repellent' might be. Can you explain why you have wanted to repel something in connection with meeting your love needs?
By "limbo" I mean a state of numbness; you don't make any moves, you just wait for something to change, for... drama to become more "auspicious", to be properly taken care of (by people or "God"). A "limbo repellent" (hi! hi!) would be a strong realization that may bring you out of this situation of self-confinement. For instance, such a realization might be: "Hey, this is my life and I can run it better than anyone else! So let me go for it NOW!" Interactions with others become richer and easier when I don't expect them to respond to my needs in the way I feel fit and, especially, when I don't hold them responsible for my happiness or unhappiness... A really nice book I read a few years ago is "The Hero Within" by Carol S. Pearson. It talks about the Six Archetypes we live by (the Orphan, the Wanderer, the Warrior, the Martyr and the Magician). You may find it interesting. C.S.
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
common sense wrote:
Joel wrote:
Quote:
I can't seem to even begin to imagine what a 'limbo repellent' might be. Can you explain why you have wanted to repel something in connection with meeting your love needs?
By "limbo" I mean a state of numbness; you don't make any moves, you just wait for something to change, for... drama to become more "auspicious", to be properly taken care of (by people or "God"). A "limbo repellent" (hi! hi!) would be a strong realization that may bring you out of this situation of self-confinement. For instance, such a realization might be: "Hey, this is my life and I can run it better than anyone else! So let me go for it NOW!" Interactions with others become richer and easier when I don't expect them to respond to my needs in the way I feel fit and, especially, when I don't hold them responsible for my happiness or unhappiness... A really nice book I read a few years ago is "The Hero Within" by Carol S. Pearson. It talks about the Six Archetypes we live by (the Orphan, the Wanderer, the Warrior, the Martyr and the Magician). You may find it interesting. C.S.
Thanks for the recommendation. I am getting quite a bit of Archtypal Resonance(tm) at the moment from the writings of Victor Hugo, as acute an observer of human language, behavior and tradition as Shakespeare, or at least in the same class, IMO. On one hand he talks of the soul in language that would please the most ardent BK, on the other, full of wonder at that miraculous phenomenon, romantic love. Glad to hear you have a key to be able to take responsibility for and to motivate yourself, C.S. Me, sometimes I am the windshield, sometimes the bug.....
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