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whitecandy Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 10 Location: Singapore |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: In a relationship with a BK, and confused |
Hi all, I'm new here. This is my first post. I'm Candy, and when I went to UK last year to visit some relatives on holiday, I got offered to join BK's meditation a couple times, by a friend of a relative. I attended the meditation sessions but didn't join BK because I wasn't sure that it was the right thing for me. Now I'm back in Singapore, and met this wonderful man, who..turned out to be a devoted BK member. He wakes up every morning at 4, meditate regularly and attends BK activities/meetings on a frequent basis. I can sense that he is in confusion now. He loves me, but he's also attached to BK. He told me that he already swore in front of the BK seniors that he shall never marry. But, since we get closer and closer, he even initiated physical intimacy. Sometimes I ask myself "Is it relevant to swear not to marry and stay celibate, but then still have physical intimacy with member of the opposite sex?" I don't know how he handles the guilt so far. But, our relationship has become more serious and commited. The things is, his sibblings (one younger brother and a sister) also joined BK because they were fascinated by his devotion. They also swore to keep celibacy and never marry. My boyfriend told me stories about the Golden Age and encouraged me to join him, participate in ruling the world when the time arrives. He also took me to a few meditation sessions at the Singapore centre, which I attended, but hesitate to join. He gave me plenty of BK literatures (books, moduls etc) and BK songs. Hoping that I will "see the light" perhaps. But I'm not the type who can easily be lured into these things, perhaps because I'm more logic. Lately, he's been having health problems, easily catches colds (due to lack of sleeping and vegetarian diet) and infections. I don't know where this relationship is going to, honestly. He doesn't want to let me go, but he also didn't want to marry. He never introduced me to his friends (because they are all BK people) and family (because his sibblings are devoted BK members too). He wants to rule in BK's upcoming Golden Age, but still has physical intimacy with me (what an irony!). I tried leaving him, 3 times already. But he always begs me to come back. I know, perhaps on the back of his mind, he sensed that something could be wrong with BK, but he didn't know what to do or how to explain it to me. If he's completely brainwashed by BK then, he would have cut ties with me long ago and agreed when I decided to break up. He's getting more involved in BK, and has more responsibilities in the organization now. I wish there is a way that I can open up his eyes and make him see, that he's in a cult, that in the end, will drain his mental and physical capacities, or brainwash him completely into a denial zombie. The reason why we are still together is probably, he's not completely 100% brainwashed, and like I said before, he might have doubts about BK which he couldn't tell me or anyone in BK about it. Any advice on what I should do in this situation? It's a delicate yet frustrating situation. I know, if I let go of him (leave him again), then he might become 100 % brainwashed by BK and I might lose him forever. And I think, he knew that too, deep down inside. That's why he clinged to me. Living a double life outside BK.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
Does your partner feel he is being brainwashed? It's all a matter of perspective...someone who believes might feel they are being transformed for the better, someone who doesn't believe will say it is brainwashing. I think we are brainwashed by society at large..propaganda from governements...media..advertising...so someone on a spiritual path could say they are de-brainwashing themselves. As for leading a double life - Yes you are right, but also it takes a long time for a person to become 'pure'. I'm not sure if the senior sisters,who have been in BK for 70 years are totally pure....It is not an easy task.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: Re: In a relationship with a BK, and confused |
whitecandy wrote:
Sometimes I ask myself "Is it relevant to swear not to marry and stay celibate, but then still have physical intimacy with member of the opposite sex?"
The BK definition of celibacy doesn't allow physical relationships of any sort - whether you actually marry or not is irrelevant, if you are lovers, then he is living a lie. In my experience, he cannot remain within the BK organisation, and accepted by them, and remain intimate with you, other than by leading a double life - as you indicate, that will put him in torment one way or the other. He is dealing with very pure and very powerful spiritual energies which will burn him up if he continues in this double life - you will see his physical and/or mental health disintegrate in front of your eyes. Unfortunately it seems like he is enmeshed in the BK organsation - caught up in the 'name and form' of the thing, ie status within the organisation. His family being involved does not help the situation. You must look out for yourself. He is no advert for the BKs, and I am not surprised you are resisting his call to get involved. I don't think the BKs are the problem here - it is his attachments, both to you and to them, that is the problem - he should be attached to neither, if he is following the BK teachings accurately. By being attached to both he will get torn apart, as they are not compatible. In my opinion there is nothing wrong in having a loving relationship with a fellow human being, and that is one reason I am no longer a BK. But from a BK point of view, what he is doing is very wrong, for him and for you. If he won't be honest with the BKs about his situation, then I think you should leave him before you get more hurt. Even if you stay, and he leaves the BKs, you will have an awful lot of pieces to pick up.. Luckily you will find this forum an excellent resource of information and links to help you deal with your situation. I believe there is at least one active member in this forum who has been (is still?) in a very similar situation.. dig around, and best of luck.
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
whitecandy, A warm welcome to XBKchat. Thanks for sharing so openly. Your post reminds me of a post by Anova in the XBK only forum. You should have a look at that topic "Help!" Here is the link: http://xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewtopic.php?t=99 Tete may be able to give you some sound advice also, as she has been in a relationship with an XBK for some time. Ditto for catlady. howiemac wrote:
Quote:
He is dealing with very pure and very powerful spiritual energies which will burn him up if he continues in this double life - you will see his physical and/or mental health disintegrate in front of your eyes.
howie, Don't you think that's a bit dark and extreme? After all, Shiv Baba himself said "I never curse anyone". Sure, as long as he is sitting on the fence and conflicted, the poor brother will suffer - but that inner turmoil will be the result of his own indecision and ambivalence. It is not something that is inflicted by the BKs or their supposed "power". Besides, when the "knowledge" has been shown to be so full of holes, just how "pure and powerful" is the source? Of course, a deceptive source may also have power. Back to whitecandy. Tell your boyfriend this: Shiv Baba himself has said that one of the things he likes about foreigners is that they are either completely in the path or completely out of it. Having tasted the forbidden fruit / flesh, your friend has already fallen down the five flights of stairs, so he has no future to talk about in BKdom. It is ironic that you are better than him at breaking off your relationship and being (somewhat) detached. Perhaps you should give him an ultimatum: "Make up your mind by X date or Sayonara." Best wishes.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
Atma wrote:
howie, Don't you think that's a bit dark and extreme? After all, Shiv Baba himself said "I never curse anyone".
fair comment - i did wonder if i was pitching it a bit strong - but in my short period with the BKs i have seen people really lose the plot when playing 'fast and loose' with this sort of stuff.. whether through exposure to high spiritual energies or just through their own guilt trips- the BK path is very very demanding, even when followed 'straight and true'. I honestly predict mental meltdown from the sort of behaviour described by whitecandy... just my honest opinion and gut reaction, which may of course be quite wrong: every individual is unique, as is every situation. I did not mean to imply that the BKs let alone Shiva/God will attack this soul in any way, rather that his own mind will attack itself.
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: |
Hello whitecandy, It seems that BK life fills in the gaps you cannot give him, and you fill in the life BKs don't give him. You're in a love triangle. These triangles hurt all parties. Sorry girl, dump him. Be in a relationship where a guy loves you outright. Why choose less ? You're competing with his "God". Unless you make his "God" also yours, then you can both be BKs and have a shared understanding of a BK life as a BK couple. Relationships are about sharing, not about taking.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: In a relationship with a BK, and confused |
WC, I met my husband over 17 years ago. I met him at a centre for no more than 2-3 hours at most. I won’t go into the details of my first meeting here, perhaps at some later time in the XBK only section. When he did leave six months later he left on his own accord. He later moved out to my respective state, called a friend and asked about me. Our relationship was a mental exchange which went on for several weeks prior to physically meeting. When I met him I was also celibate and on my own spiritual journey (not looking for a mate). Most of our connection was about what we wanted in life (children), hopes (idealistic ideas of saving “Earth”) and service (talked about serving humanity via a mission upon retiring or slipping it in while on a journey together). He didn’t mention the fine details of the BK’s and only recently did I find out about the beliefs. We dated for almost three years before I married him. I thought I knew all there was to know (In the loving, caring, idealistic ideas and mutual respect I did.) about him. Throughout the years I have had many surprises with the major one being last year. Yes, even years later things can pop up and surprise you. You are one step ahead in that you are here and people are willing to support you as well as him. My husband knows I come here for support, guidance, clarity and a sense of community as I choose not to have any more secrets between us. He knows who writes me and who I confide in. My friend laughed when she saw my family given name here (My family has shared in the happy moments and the sad. ) so I have nothing to hide from them. They love me and my family regardless. I did break it off after almost a year when I realized that some BK’s expected him back. Like a little sabbatical of sorts? I view the idea of competing with a person’s God as not a good idea. You must be willing to let go and if the link is there, he will return of his own accord. It is best that he makes that choice independent of you. You don’t want negative luggage to carry forward in any relationship. He must make that decision, don’t let him place any guilt upon you. If you do it will only lead to failure as you will have many other challenges ahead that you don’t even know about or can conceptualize. Two haves don’t make a whole. Read EROMAIN's report (I found things in it that were in my life and didn’t even know that they were part of the BK beliefs.)a must read for significant others. Read the classics posts there you will find many of the jewels on this site. Seek posts by members that write with passion, wisdom, knowledge and yes even spirituality. Good luck on your journey and remember that love/marriage is a work in progress always growing, changing and most wonderful when shared in true spirit. Regards, Tete
whitecandy Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 10 Location: Singapore |
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: |
bansy wrote:
Hello whitecandy, It seems that BK life fills in the gaps you cannot give him, and you fill in the life BKs don't give him. You're in a love triangle. These triangles hurt all parties.
That's what I realize when I think about these gaps. He was a workaholic all of his life, with an excellent career track. All the effort he put on this, consumes his time, energy and desire. He has no room for a healthy social life, and dating, as his career made him travel constantly. When he already reaches a certain position in his career, and manage to settle his life, he turned to BK to fill in the gaps. Perhaps, he got the sincere social relations he looked for, from his BK friends. He even encouraged his sibblings to join BK, which they willingly did. (What surprises me, his sibblings took the celibacy lifestyle very seriously) When I entered his life, the romantic gap is filled. Also the desire for physical intimacy, and having a special someone you can share life with. Whenever we're together, I never ask about sensitive stuff, such as "You have vowed/swore to keep celibacy, then why go through this with me?" I just let things flow, naturally. After years of never eating food at restaurants (because of BK), he asked me out to dinner a few times, at restaurants, of course, ordering vegetarian dishes only. Yesterday we had dinner and when his phone rung, he lets the machine answer it. Turned out it's from a BK member. We both say nothing about it. I saw changes in him. Maybe he wants to go back to his normal lifestyle, the life before BK, but is too afraid to make a move. I love this man, and if I have to wait, then I shall wait. I don't want to lose him. I prefer to keep the relationship flowing naturally, without demanding anything.
whitecandy Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 10 Location: Singapore |
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: |
Thank you for the responses I will read the board more throughly, and sort things out. If you still have any suggestions/advice, feel free to post it here White Candy
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: Women who love too much. |
whitecandy wrote:
bansy wrote:
It seems that BK life fills in the gaps you cannot give him, and you fill in the life BKs don't give him. You're in a love triangle. These triangles hurt all parties.
That's what I realize when I think about these gaps. Yesterday we had dinner and when his phone rung, he lets the machine answer it. Turned out it's from a BK member. We both say nothing about it. I saw changes in him. Maybe he wants to go back to his normal lifestyle, the life before BK, but is too afraid to make a move. I love this man, and if I have to wait, then I shall wait. I don't want to lose him. I prefer to keep the relationship flowing naturally, without demanding anything.
Hi Candy, I read your post and I have to say it rang very loud alarm bells for me. I really feel for the position that you are in with all my heart. Be very careful and protect yourself. It is tough love but I think the big girls here, Bansy and Tete, are quite right in what they say to you. Likewise Howiemac is absolutely spot on about the guy tearing himself apart. You have no need to hold back or pull your punches on that one Howie. Even if he does chose to leave Raja Yoga, it will be a long time before he is ready or able to have a proper relationship. There are other sentiments that I am picking up from your posts that I think you ought to consider from your own point of view. If you are not aware of them, I would recommend Robin Norwood's books on " Women who Love Too Much ". Some of the scenarios she documents are more extreme that yours but the dynamics are the same ; loving someone that is unavailable, hoping they will change, loving them more so they do, being used and ultimately being hurt. It is an issue she says that can arise from childhood / parental influences and may be one that comes back time and time again. She writes about co-dependent relationships. This is something that I would much rather prefer to handle privately but for the sake of others who might be in the same situation; your friend is doing wrong. You ought to kiss him one last time and run far away. if you want to test his love, lay an ultimatum down; 6 months / 9 months no contact with Raja Yoga / no sex with others. Sure, if you are a bad girl and the sex is good then what the hell, wind things right up until they explode. But if you are sensitive and have feelings you have to get out. He is using your energy. What he is doing, as other have said, is deeply dishonest to both sides and you need the courage to be able to discuss this matter. It is part of growing up for you. I believe in the saying that " where there are lies there cannot be love ". I am writing from a male perspective and looking back at the time when I made the transistion out of Raja Yoga. The relationships I had and how I treated others. I would say it was probably a good 2 or 3 years from the point of when I " broke the principles " and " left " until when I complete fell apart and had to remake my life. They often say that a man who has two lovers is actually a weak man supported by two strong women. In this case, your man is weak and has to be confused to need propping up by two entirely exclusive, contradictory and opposing forces; Raja Yoga and you. And from the Raja Yoga point of view, you are nothing but a sinful evil come to tempt him and lead him away from God. However nice they might be externally, that is how you will be viewed. Now, of course, may be they are right and may be there is just something in kinky, forbidden sex you like in the same way, say Italian Catholics or politicians do, but I dont get that feeling from you. At best, may be there is something in you that wants to love and have sex with someone that is not available so you wont get trapped? you want to disassociate that sexual activity from your life as he does. I don't know. But, lastly, from the B.K. Raja Yoga point of view, he must go to his senior sister and confess what he has done and what he is doing. You can tell him this, it is Shrimat. They will ask him, find out, if he wants to stay or go. If he wants to stay they will tell him not to see you and cut off entirely. No contact. He will have lost all respect from them and your face with be dirty in their eyes. He wont be able to go on pilgrimage for may be a year or more, will be expected to make additional visible sacrifices and wont be entirely trusted to do service. [ Of course the issue of hypocrisy within his family and what family pressures he is involved with is another. ] Are you ready for that? Eromain's long posts were a relevation to me. I never realised he went off and had sex in the middle of his B.K. career; and strangely chose his child sex abuse campaign to publically confess this. From a B.K. point of view that would explain why he fell from such " heights " and was spun so far out of orbit. I think we have the material to write another book here girls, " Women who Love Cult Members ".
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
Hi I just wanted to add something. One of the dangerous things about doing Raja Yoga is that it makes one more attractive to others and the opposite sex. It does charge you up with energy. Many women find the combination of maleness and spirituality very appealing; in an age where men can be so limited and two dimensional. Likewise, certain sort of men are attracted to the soft unconditional love the sisters represent; in an age where women are becoming more masculine. But it is wrong to use that energy to seduce others because, in my opinion, it is conditionally given by the so called Shiva and the establishment. And the first conditions are " no using it for sex ". I would suggest that what others, like you Candy, are falling in love with is not just the man you see but those spiritual energies behind and around him. You may even be being "seduced" in the broadest sense by them. When they go, which they will if one continues to have a sexual relationship, you will be left with something quite different. I'd be very cautious that you are not being drawn in psychically by the spirits involved in B.K. Raja Yoga. In truth, a B.K. is already a married person. What advice would you give to a friend who was having an affair with a married man?
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: Women who love to much |
Ex-London, You are so correct in what you say. I have always believed that the sisters within looked upon me negatively even though he left of his own accord. Funny you mention Women that Love Too Much as that is the very book I bought last year?????? Well, mystic you. EX-L wrote:
Quote:
I think we have the material to write another book here girls, " Women who Love Cult Members ".
The book can start with a good story teller....know any? Regards, Tete
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: Women who love too much. |
Ex-London, I didn’t see the revelation as strange as he was in essence pointing out some very succinct flaws in the system, one that shockingly/shamelessly blames the victim (A CHILD). So, what better way then to be truthful, in true humility (willing to face judgment just or not) and in absolute transparency make his points which he knows to be true. After all most individuals that bring forth such sensitive matters are often attacked personally so why not diffuse the distractions from the point at hand (Child Abuse). I was personally touched as a mother that some one would care for my child and others in WORLD the way that he did by taking the time, time from his life to give to others he didn’t even know. That is the essence of what GOD is in its most true form….to love others as you would your own, to protect others as you would your own. I was also impressed with his sense of responsibility to the child that wrote him, he was his teacher and in the end the lesson is that he showed this young man that he was a true teacher (worthy of his trust in the system or out) and in my eyes a reflection of the essence the very essence of GOD. What a lesson to leave a student! If you look further in his report http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm you will find some truths for those that have left and the many obstacles they face, the over indulgence, being to trusting or not trusting anything/anyone any more. I have seen this first hand and it was a truth I knew. So, look beyond the sensation, look closer at the message he has left for those that come along, lost, hurting, in spiritual pain, confused spouses and troubled parents seeking clarity. ex-london wrote:
Quote:
Eromain's long posts were a revelation to me. I never realized he went off and had sex in the middle of his B.K. career; and strangely chose his child sex abuse campaign to publicly confess this. From a B.K. point of view that would explain why he fell from such " heights " and was spun so far out of orbit.
I say this to you (EX-London) with all the respect and love in my heart as I know you know him and would hope that you see what a weight of responsible he took on. We must be thankful that such souls exist and realize what challenges he faced in order to speak/protect those that can not defend or speak for themselves. Tete
whitecandy Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 10 Location: Singapore |
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: |
Hello, I've been busy a bit with some work at office. I want to add some updates about me and my BK boyfriend. He has enrolled me into a 7 days BK retreat at Mount Abu, Rajasthan, India. This is a shock for me! This guy even got his research proposal granted by his company and he'll be leaving to Rajasthan for 1 year to complete his research project. I don't know what to say Honestly, I'm still thinking, whether I should go or not. Perhaps, any of you who have attended this retreat can enlight me. White Candy
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: |
whitecandy wrote:
Hello, I've been busy a bit with some work at office. I want to add some updates about me and my BK boyfriend. He has enrolled me into a 7 days BK retreat at Mount Abu, Rajasthan, India. This is a shock for me! This guy even got his research proposal granted by his company and he'll be leaving to Rajasthan for 1 year to complete his research project. I don't know what to say Honestly, I'm still thinking, whether I should go or not. Perhaps, any of you who have attended this retreat can enlight me. White Candy
Hi White Candy, God may say one thing, but millions of years of mammalian and human history means something too, and a person with a heart and eyes to see the warmth and beauty of another will be attracted.... So your boyfriend wants to be "good", and yet something about being with you also seems undeniably good to him. I remember the first time I fell in love after 12 years as a celibate BK. We hadn't slept together or anything, but the feeling of attraction just to be together was so strong and so fulfilling that all my BK education notwithstanding, I couldn't find fault with those feelings, nor find an objection to pursuing them further. It took me some time to learn to trust those feelings after having been conditioned to think of them as destructive. So I can sympathize with your boyfriend's conflicted feelings. Especially that he wants to look like a good BK in the eyes of his family and friends, who are also BKs. Probably he is hoping that if you become "spiritual" by going to Mt. Abu and meeting God through meditation and BK teachings, you may choose celibacy or somehow God will make everything right. Probably he is still hoping there will be an easy way out, some way he can have both you and his BK life. One thing I can tell you is that if you want to stay with him during your retreat in Mt. Abu, you should insist on getting a hotel room in the village. It won't be easy to stay together in the BK ashram. Most ashrams in India do not allow men and women to sleep together. Personally, I don't see why you should have to hide your feelings toward him, addressing each other formally and never holding hands in BK public unless that suits you. If you have to do that with him in Singapore, it will be the same in Mt. Abu. Of course after you leave the ashram, you are free to live however you like. Many people do have spiritual experiences there. Someone I later came close to never became vegetarian nor gave up alcoholic drinks, nor really believed the BK teachings, but while she was in Mt. Abu she was filled with energy. She hardly needed to sleep more than a couple hours, and coming back home she had the experience of being a witness to her surgeries (she is a doctor) -- that her hands were being moved by God. So if you're interested in following a spiritual path or finding inner peace or experiencing something through silence, you may find it there. Anyway, it's only a week. India has much to offer that you could enjoy in his company. I'm sure he would enjoy traveling with you free from the eyes of other BKs. As for your relationship, I think it's up to you to decide if you can have the cooperation and understanding you want from him. Because if he wasn't in that group, you would certainly expect him to meet you halfway. Wishing you the best.....
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