| XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris
FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups
Profile You have no new messages Log out
BKation - BK on Vacation Goto page Previous 1, 2
| XBK Chat Forum Index -> BK / XBK Dialogue
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author | Message
--- | ---
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
No, I am saying be honest and open and be your true self. And if that honesty brings an adverse reaction from others then what is the value of being there?
very good point! has anybody ever said 'well I'm not doing that or I can't follow that' to an SS and what has been the reaction?
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
Joel - i was giving my opinion based on high principles, but not so high as (or certainly no higher than) those the BKs ostensibly espouse. You do seem to indicate that you realise that happiness comes from self realisation, not the regard of others... but the 'judgement of others' that you are avoiding should not be there in the first place. Yes, nobody is perfect, but why hang out with people who wear the mask of being close to perfection while concealing underneath a decaying mess of worms? The lack of open-ness within the BKs, and the double standards clearly being employed, have driven me (and i think many others) far away. Yes - I may go crawling back in future, vowing to keep my true self secret from the SS, as anything can happen.... but the way i see things now i would rather be a shudra and just be me.
Hah hah! I didn't get that SS abbreviation first time around. Thinking first about Hogan's Heroes (incidentally Bob Crane was a notorious womanizer. btw, is that show a cultural icon where you live?) Not everyone in the BKs wears a mask of perfection, and it's possible to love people for who they are even tho they wear something of a mask. I can think of several people who are BKs without conflict, and not appearing to wear a mask. Gabby, who I was first responding to, wrote that she still feels a connection and attraction to the BKs while also pursuing intimate and worldly interests, so the issue of having integrity while relating to BKs is real for her. It is real for me, too. Those I spent years with are still around, some still practicing. I liked them then, and still like them. And to my surprise find myself contacting someone after ten years away (yippee), find myself delicately circumspect the subject of my relationships, although by the end of the conversation she mentions the name of my partner, and I realize that telling one BK is like telling many. I'm okay with them knowing, I just prefer not to rub it in their faces. Am still conflicted about whether to I want to visit their big spiffy new (high-rent!) center. Will I be subjected to getting small portions of food or sweets given with eye-staring self-importance? Will I be passive, diminishing into nothingness in front of their courtship displays of God, my own stories vanishing into muteness? Or am I large enough to accept them, enjoy their company without getting put off by their rituals. If you think about it, many people go to church for social reasons, too, and church services aren't really invasive either. Problems of getting entangled with the BK family come when a person places themself in a position of dependence on his or her seniors, which of course the BKs do solicit and encourage, believing it is to be the key to progressing. Some parallels with Christian confessing. High functioning people like the Dalai Lama and some UN people (I think of James Jonah) have satisfying relationship with the BKs while retaining their personal privacy and integrity. Anyone can, the BKs are not all bad. Nor are their practices so strange.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
Joel wrote:
Not everyone in the BKs wears a mask of perfection
very true, and i didn't mean to imply that - there are many fine, honest and genuine souls within the BKs, but unfortunately there are also many who are 'wearing a mask'. There are many souls i met in my BK days who i would like to see more of, but if I can only see them within the contact of the autocratic BK setup (and that restiction is their choice, not mine), then i can live more happliy without them... i have already tried too often to 'go back' and play their game, and it doesn't work for me.
Quote:
it's possible to love people for who they are even tho they wear something of a mask
yes indeed, and we should all strive to love everyone, regardless of their weaknesses. Doesn't mean it is beneficial to keep regular company with them. Joel, I do appreciate what you are saying, and in particular i relate to your thoughts regarding returning to the fold.
Quote:
If you think about it, many people go to church for social reasons, too, and church services aren't really invasive either
and there is very little real spirituality left in most churches.... they have become social clubs.. this is what i see happening to the BKs, they are losing their way and forgetting their own teachings, watering everything down into a devotional form of Brahma-worship, and trying to turn a spiritual furnace into a social club. I encountered a great deal of body consciousness, fear, judgement, and physical attachment from BKs - it was exhausting to deal with on a daily basis and i feel very light and happy now in comparison to when i was with them. If you keep putting your hand in the fire, you keep getting burned, and eventually you learn to keep your hand out of the fire.... yes you can warm yourself by the fire, but keep a suitable distance.
Quote:
High functioning people like the Dalai Lama and some UN people (I think of James Jonah) have satisfying relationship with the BKs while retaining their personal privacy and integrity.
I agree - they are not BKs or XBKs and it is easier - they never took the whole thing on board. I don't think it is the same for us - the BKs expect us to become like them again if we go back.... or so it seems to me..
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: |
Code:
but unfortunately there are also many who are 'wearing a mask'.
SS had said in Muralis many times he couldn't help some BKs in coming out from vices or someting like that as he see they are dishonest. The mask is that they imagine themselves perfect souls and they gone into so deep that they themselves dont try to recognise about their reality even when it is obvious. In subtle sense I think most of them would be having this problem as it is difficult to recognise it in normal procedure. Honesty for me is something to be honest to self. When I know my self how it is and all its sins, its negative thinking (I dont believe in opening these to others) then I am sure I will have clear picture of what should be my effort. Then honest to SS is automatic. Also we would never find any mask of being high in our image more than what we are and trying to fake the things. I suspect people who have strong tendency to look for followers rather than friends usually have this sort of mask. Anyways there are many people like this I came across and the main reason in my opinion is not having honesty in their self. thanks satish
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject: BKs, with and without masks |
howiemac wrote:
joel wrote:
High functioning people like the Dalai Lama and some UN people (I think of James Jonah) have satisfying relationship with the BKs while retaining their personal privacy and integrity.
I agree - they are not BKs or XBKs and it is easier - they never took the whole thing on board. I don't think it is the same for us - the BKs expect us to become like them again if we go back.... or so it seems to me..
Yes, in their words, "to serve the old ones who have left (but not forgotten) Baba." Sincere enough to them, but possibly condescending to the ex- or vacating BK. Interesting to remember when the situation was reversed, and I was the one who felt that I was adjusting to the wayward ex-BKs by speaking in an ordinary fashion, hoping for a chance to talk about what "mattered," an opportunity to "serve" them. In retrospect, those people were there for human contact, and it was *that* element that really mattered. To reiterate, some BKs really do relate as people. Those who are called "serviceable" are usually able to combine human interaction with some hinting or expostulation of their spiritual beliefs. Sr. Sheelu, probably one of the top movers and shakers at Mt. Abu, an effortlessly comfortable speaker and interpreter, a main teacher for retreats, and 100% dedicated to Baba, always seemed friendly to me. I never thought she had a mask. She emcee'd cultural programs with tact and real delight. I always believed (maybe stars in my eyes) that if she weren't so busy with the yagya, she'd like nothing better than to enjoy the pleasure of my company. Dadi Janki, tho brilliant, seems to live with some shadow. Dadi Kumarka seems to have none at all. Dr. Nirmala, too, I credit with outstanding personal qualities. So maybe it's mostly the younger ones in BK years who wear masks and tighten the screws of expectation. My own attraction to the BKs was rooted in the outstanding personal qualities I saw in the many many talented people dedicated to the yagya. In time, I believed, I too would become as charismatic as they were. If anything, that was my "original sin" since in most cases charisma comes by being yourself, rather than overlaying yourself with a poorly fitting set of behavioral responses that you mentally associate with being charismatic--what I actually did while I imagined I was re-creating myself.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:24 am Post subject: Re: BKs, with and without masks |
Joel wrote:
Sr. Sheelu.... I never thought she had a mask.
yes - I found her inspiring and very real, and if more BKs were like her (or Kumarka, Gulzar, Jayanti, i could name others, senior and junior), i would still be there.....
Quote:
Dadi Janki, tho brilliant, seems to live with some shadow
yes - i don't want to point a finger at any individual, as i see the problems as being institutional rather than at a personal level, but Janki (though "brilliant" as you succinctly put it), certainly has a problem with souls in male bodies.. hardly what you might expect from one portrayed as the top spiritual leader on the planet... she sits at the top of the heap, she is responsible now (after BapDada) for the whole sorry mess... ok so the BKs are not all bad by any means, but as they set themselves up as the pinnacle of mankind (or you might say BapDada has set them up!), is it not reasonable to expect much higher standards from them than from the world in general, and this has not been my experience. I encountered more disrespect and plain cussed behaviour from BKs, some of them very high ranking, than I have encountered in many more years in the outside world...
Quote:
So maybe it's mostly the younger ones in BK years who wear masks and tighten the screws of expectation.
thats not what i found, many older ones, including some dadis were very poor advertisments for "God's family". In fact the younger members tend to start off being themselves, ie real, and then have it 'beaten out of them' by the bitter elders... that is what i saw... and it disturbed me, all the more when i felt it happening to me too... on a lighter note, and to maintain balance, many of the most beautiful experiences in my life of interaction with other people, have been with BKs, in male and female bodies, old and young, long in gyan , and brand new to it... There are definately two sides to the coin... It is a powerful conundrum, and i guess that is a reason why there is a need for this forum, as we try to make sense of what we have experienced..
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
but Janki (though "brilliant" as you succinctly put it), certainly has a problem with souls in male bodies.. hardly what you might expect from one portrayed as the top spiritual leader on the planet... she sits at the top of the heap, she is responsible now (after BapDada) for the whole sorry mess
Do you like to say on board what was your bitter experience with Dadi Janaki?
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: |
Satish - i experienced minor problems with dadi Janki on the last few occasions i encountered her, such as - refusing to give me toli - pointedly ignoring me, and making me sit in the floor in front of her waiting for her signal, while she attended to a number of sisters who had been in the queue behind me. I should have got up and left, but did not want to show disrespect to her... - pretending she doesn't know who i am - yet she has met me several times, i was the only BK around with a beard, and every time we have met she would gave me penetrating stares from a distance. Several brothers have speculated that the beard is the problem she has with me.. which would be gross body-consciousness. - when meeting her she would not meet my eye, ie would not give drishti, yet in classes or amrit vela I would receive very powerful drishti through her (ie from 'Baba'). I have not encountered this refusing to give drishti from any other BK. But several brothers long in gyan have confimed that they have received the same treatment for many years, and that they know of many other brothers who are also treated this way by dadi Janki: apparently, it is a recognised problem in London, but no fuss is made so as not to "rock the boat" (anyway you know how Dadi would react to criticism - ie she would ignore it). I believe she was playing mind games, presumably in the belief that she was teaching me a lesson. The lesson i took from it was "don't waste your time with dadi Janki".
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: |
Quote:
when meeting her she would not meet my eye, ie would not give drishti, yet in classes or amrit vela I would receive very powerful drishti through her (ie from 'Baba').
Is she not what she is while in amritavela or classes.Do you think is she occupied by Shivababa when giving drishti that time? Its because even I had powerful experience while sitting in yoga when she was on dias. However it is not good to have bitter experience like that. But from my experience I remember she is like trying to tell something to me when giving a speech. And morely I felt she was able to read my thoughts. When I was looking on her with feeling that whether she was able to read me, amazingly she herself in speech told that some of them asks her question that can she read the people before her and she went on saying that it is not unusual to read as it is just matter of recognising the five vices one have and continued explaining how five vices are involved in a person. And I did come across the same point in murali once. Mostly when I looked her closer she is bit childish at heart though she is aware of everything around. Well but your experience with her is different. Also I heard of some who had such bitter experiences and now they are PBKs.. thanks satish
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
I have not encountered this refusing to give drishti from any other BK. But several brothers long in gyan have confimed that they have received the same treatment for many years, and that they know of many other brothers who are also treated this way by dadi Janki:
So she still hasn't change...what a surprise(not).
Quote:
Also I heard of some who had such bitter experiences and now they are PBKs..
Satish, do you mean from Dadi Janki or other SS......Just maybe.. it's a Blessing in disguise
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
Quote: Also I heard of some who had such bitter experiences and now they are PBKs.. Satish, do you mean from Dadi Janki or other SS......Just maybe.. it's a Blessing in disguise
John I am saying about Dadis..well usually all PBKs have complaints on Dadis..many here know that. Also they were BKs before and had such bitter experiences. May be you are right, that was some kind of blessing. At end truth is something within. And whoever it is, whether it is SS or Dadis, we need not care as long as we stick to point of truth within. However I never came across any bitter experience from BK world. I might have seen BKs whom I can give complaints..but aim and purpose of being there is something I would concentrate on. Its just few minutes in morning I think I just have to be there and that too for free thanks satish
Display posts from previous:
| XBK Chat Forum Index -> BK / XBK Dialogue | All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2
Page 2 of 2
| You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group