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Beyond belief
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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:18 am Post subject: Beyond belief |
om shanti This is an extract from a Buddhist book that I read recently. I liked it, thought someone else might too. Parable of the raft. One of the best-known of all Buddhist parables is that of the raft. It concerns a man living in a terrifying land, a land full of horror and danger. He is fleeing this land, knowing that on the other side of a vast expanse of water there lies a land of peace and love. On arriving on the shore he has to find a way to cross the water, so he builds a raft, a crude structure constructed from whatever is to hand, and with great effort eventually makes it across the water to freedom. After telling the parable, the Buddha wants to know if, having completed such a journey, it would then be proper for the man to strap the raft to himself and take it wherever he went. When he receives the answer from his listeners that it would not be proper to carry the raft, he poses a second question. Should the man moor the raft and, unencumbered, continue on his way? To this question his listeners, a group of monks, reply 'Indeed! That would be the best course for him' Thus the Buddha gives the monks the highest of his teachings, then encourages them to unerstand it is something to let go when the time is ripe. extract from A Deeper Beauty - Paramananda. _________________ om shanti wahl
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: |
Nice parable Wahl Wisely, you used the raft; unwisely (perhaps) I "became" the raft Ever read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: i love budha |
buddha must have been a good studant of shiva omshanthi
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: |
Hi Gy, I am retreating to the hills of Italy for a couple of weeks. If I can get hold of a copy in time I will look forward to reading it. Thanks. om shanti _________________ om shanti wahl
assandhari Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: up the creek... |
But of course we know that in reality the Budda did not experience 'the land of truth' . He continued to take rebith in the 'land of untimely death' . Who do you know that has crossed over to the 'land of peace and love'? Nobody whatsoever. Just more stories from the kindergagarten of the path of bhakti....... _________________ the universe... a hall of mirrors....reflecting, inner beauty..
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: up the creek... |
We dont " know " anything. You write that as if you really have the authority of knowledge or experience to state it as an objective fact. But all you can really say is that, " I was told such and such ". You could say that " we postulate that ... " but it remains just one theory amongst many. In truth, we have no clue. All we can do, mostly, is parrot what we have heard. The problem with Brahma Kumari " knowledge " is that not all of the equation works out. When one bit is wrong, unproven, changes; the rest is drawn into question. Of course, much the same applies to any other faith. We can though see the psychological effect in the consciousness of the individual recipient of the Brahma Kumari re-programming. It quite quickly assumes a position of almost absolute superiority over all other mystics, philosophers, intellectuals or scholars, considering themselves to be higher and deeper and broader on the basis of what is actually a very simplistic mantra; a kind of " all of creation " in 20 words or less. And this despite the lack of any personal achievement, whether worldly, intellectually, morally or spiritually. Indeed, it even acts a total shield against any logical criticism whether from outsiders or ex-adherents. This is one thing that is interesting about eromain's experiment, quoted elsewhere in this discussion board, where in a fairly important institutional issue ( child sex abuse ) an ex- or outsider was right ( as in " God " took their side ) where the seniors were wrong and opposing. That ex-BK by definition of the same Source being " lower than the lowest of the low ". Does that mean the seniors were even lower in this aspect? What other aspects then? My question is, if this " Source " or its agents are not consistent or right on fairly central issues of its " knowledge, how can you parrot some other element of it as " knowledge ", e.g. " I know ... ". We don't know. We can't know. All we can be sure of, as sure as our bodies will one day die, is that we can be deceived. The human mind is gullible, fallible, suggestible by default. [ Never mind its hungry ego ]. Some more suggestible, other better at manipulating. It is a wonder that the BKs - along with one of some other religion - have not Trademarked the word " Knowledge [tm] " as it seems to have been given a whole new meaning by their practise.
assandhari wrote:
But of course we know that in reality the Budda did not experience 'the land of truth' . He continued to take rebith in the 'land of untimely death' . Who do you know that has crossed over to the 'land of peace and love'? Nobody whatsoever. Just more stories from the kindergagarten of the path of bhakti.......
Yup, I was once more enlightened than Buddha by 100% and more loveful and compassionate that Jesus by about 125% too ... so watch out!
assandhari Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: Are you experienced? |
>>You write that as if you really have the authority of knowledge or experience to state it as an objective fact<< The greatest authority is that of your own experience. I experience myself to be a bodiless being. Once experienced, you can never go back to the old understanding given by corporeal beings. The 'knowledge' given by ShivBaba over many years simply corroborates that experience, for me anyway. Are you experienced? _________________ the universe... a hall of mirrors....reflecting, inner beauty..
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Are you experienced? |
assandhari wrote:
>>You write that as if you really have the authority of knowledge or experience to state it as an objective fact<< The greatest authority is that of your own experience. I experience myself to be a bodiless being. Once experienced, you can never go back to the old understanding given by corporeal beings. The 'knowledge' given by ShivBaba over many years simply corroborates that experience, for me anyway. Are you experienced?
That is all utterly subjective. Subjectivity is a great defence from further inspection. For all you know, you could just be having a chemical experience, you could just be being given a psychic experience by these other entities; what does " The Knowledge [tm] " corroborate? I would not argue with the dualist view of body and soul but we are talking a little bit more about specifics here. The impact and implications of that " Knowledge [tm] " on people's lives. And what is that Knowledge? Does it all add up? Has it been consistent?
assandhari Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject: |
<<That is all utterly subjective.>> Yes, indeed. However, human beings posses a quality whereby feelings and experiences can be communicated. It is called empathy, feelings, catching the vibe, you know what I mean, man. <<For all you know, you could just be having a chemical experience, you could just be being given a psychic experience by these other entities; what does " The Knowledge [tm] " corroborate? >> Well I guess it corroborates that other beings, utilising some mind /body interface are having similar experiences. The experiences being communicated through speech, written media, visual presentation, attitude. You say 'just a psychic experience' as though it is a meaningless event. Everything is a psychic experience, is it not? The fact that we are communicating on this forum corroborates my own experience. Something about the 'knowledge[tm]' has touched you, has it not? <<The impact and implications of that " Knowledge [tm] " on people's lives. >> I can only really vouch for the impact and the implications the ''knowledge[tm]'' has had on my own life. Good, better, best. I'm perfectly at ease with the ''knowledge[tm]'' . And everything going on around me. You cannot be specific about 'people'. People, are in fact made up of individuals. You are not a spokesperson for 'people' nor are you responsible for 'people' . Trying to work out the implications and impact of anything on people is like tying to plan and predict some covert 'psy ops' Are you a goverment spy? 'People' are unpredictable and predictable. I have no idea what 'people' think. I really don't care what 'people' think. <<b]Does it all add up?[/b]>> It adds up. It subtracts. It multiplies. It divides. You can perform any equation you like. The answer is for you alone. _________________ the universe... a hall of mirrors....reflecting, inner beauty..
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
It quite quickly assumes a position of almost absolute superiority over all other mystics, philosophers, intellectuals or scholars, considering themselves to be higher and deeper and broader on the basis of what is actually a very simplistic mantra; a kind of " all of creation " in 20 words or less. And this despite the lack of any personal achievement, whether worldly, intellectually, morally or spiritually. Indeed, it even acts a total shield against any logical criticism whether from outsiders or ex-adherents.
I couldn't agree more. I remember the day at one retreat when I was told the BKs were "the elite" of the spiritual world, which, as this person said "seems egotistical . But then we have the only true answers so we can afford to be!" Hehe. I'll never forget that one "truth" is indeed subjective IMO
Mr Green Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 41 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
i find it dis tasteful that bks come on here and 'attack' the innocent coments made by innocent people that have made the decision to try and break away from indocrination, can't you just get on with your liberation in life and leave us alone.........................or do we need 'serving'
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: |
Hmmm....yes you'd think so huh But trying to steer us away from our evil "blasphemy" and "back to the fold" with Baba IS in fact, what some BKs call godly service. I have been told this in no uncertain terms. and they're not going to stop unless you pull away first and then have no further contact. That's my experience with those who have kept attempting to 'make me see the light' lol
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:25 am Post subject: |
assandhari said
Quote:
The greatest authority is that of your own experience.
I think the essence of the above quote is very valuable. We can't be sure about what we have been told, but we can be sure of what we have experienced because it is real. Imagine, throwing out all of the ideas and philosophies that have bombarded you in the past and focus only on what you have felt, regardless of how small that experience may be. Don't look out, look in. This is an incredibly powerful starting point if we can get our heads around it. with love wahl
Mr Green Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 41 |
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
zhukov wrote:
Hmmm....yes you'd think so huh But trying to steer us away from our evil "blasphemy" and "back to the fold" with Baba IS in fact, what some BKs call godly service. I have been told this in no uncertain terms. and they're not going to stop unless you pull away first and then have no further contact. That's my experience with those who have kept attempting to 'make me see the light' lol
your comments are very refreshing
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