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Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: |
Isabel and gyaniwasi, Thanks for sharing some of your Abu experiences. Perhaps, I can share some of mine. To condense things, let me say that I came in gyan a long time ago. After the initial intoxication and involvement in service etc, things gradually petered out and that "high" feeling became flat. A certain cynicism crept in, which was caused partly by observations of hypocrisy, double talk, double think and double standards. So, after a little over three years as a committed BK, I drifted off from the path. I had "mentally detached" from it for some time before I outwardly left. I visited Abu twice. The first time was during my initial period of involvement. It was not a pleasant experience. The train trip was very long, and second class seats are hell. Added to that, my stomach reacted badly to the food and water. Those were the days of the "footprint" style toilets....LOL After many years of being out of the path, I started to feel a need to go back and complete some unfinished business with the BKs. I therefore got involved again - this time in a more detached way, and with eyes WIDE open - no illusions. After the required period of "purification" and preparation, I returned to Abu. I understood that I had taken all from the path that I could, and also given all that I had to give. So, even though I told no one, I KNEW that this second and final trip was going to be my last....a sort of farewell and wrapping up of things. I am glad I made the trip. It went very well and, ironically, the experience was much better than my first visit. When the time came to listen to Baba in the massive Diamond Hall, I was mentally and spiritually prepared. The system has changed a lot from the old days. Because of the crowds, there are very few personal and group meetings. Now, people file past and take a second's drishti, in an assembly line manner. Anyway, when the chance came for me to do that, this is what I was repeating in my mind: "I make my peace with you. I take my leave from you. I make my peace with you. I take my leave from you." Baba was smiling and holding his right arm up, bent at the elbow, open palm forward...slowly rocking it back and forth, in the "blessing hand" gesture. So that was my last memory of him. Not a bad last memory eh? Just thought that I would share this with you all....in the spirit of the discussion.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:50 am Post subject: |
Thanks Atma! You sound as though you've managed to heal completely - that's enviable! It would be nice if you can share with us your experience of healing and what kind of lifestyle you now enjoy. What have you taken from the path that contributes to your new wholeness or foundation and what new perceptions are particularly useful to maintaining balance and contentment? We need so much to hear from you wise 'oldies'. Care to share? _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
Wow, Atma. What a beautiful resolution. I also like what you had to say about going back a second time to the B.K.s -this time with your eyes wide open. Maybe that's a good way to negotiate a resolution for xbks stuck in a sort of netherworld like myself. I too would like to hear more about how you've negotiated your spiritual path since. Please do share if you feel comfortable.
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:17 am Post subject: |
[quote="Atma"][b][color=darkblue]Isabel and gyaniwasi, with eyes WIDE open - no illusions.] DO YOU MEAN YOUR 3rd EYE ? THE EYE OF KNOWLEDGE? _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
isabel wrote:
Sue, I think that is the central issue. But I fear this realization lands one in a netherworld of contradictions. Raja Yoga is not a 'take-what-you-want-and-leave-the-rest-faith'. Yes, one isn't expected to believe everything all at once, but it is fully expected that one's doubts will wear away over time. I think some of the other posts have pinpointed the issue nicely; what makes the Brahma Kumaris unique is that they believe their knowledge is spoken directly from God. 'The show' MUST therefore be God. The follow through from that is that all that is taught and done must be correct and there can be no place in the organization for 'halfsies' because this would contradict the internal logic of the teachings. But then what are those who find themselves somewhere in-between to do?
this is somewhat how i feel. while i try my best to take on the practises of the BKs (the ones i feel make sense to me and i can see the benefit) i have gotten over the guilt and fear of God punishing me because i was not perfect (the murli often says if your not pure you will receive a lot of punishment) that was instilled in me from reading murlies etc about not following all the principals etc . i feel the same that there is no place for me within the BKs because I dont want to be a diety queen in the next cycle and have everyone wait on me and do all my chores, sometimes i got a bit annoyed at always feeling like it was a carrot being dangled in front of me and i wasnt interested in being royal etc and i certaintly dont feel that my friends and family are any less because they are not BKs, they are still good people and do their best always to be happy and make others happy and follow a good lifestyle. To think that in the end they will all die a painful death at the end because they were not brahmins horrifys me. (also in the murlies) I just wanted to be close to God, do my best for myself and others around me and enjoy the experience of being in this body. Its only now that Ive finally stopped beating myself up and feeling guilty because I have a boyfriend and that we can still have love for each other and be good people and happy even if we are sleeping together, i dont see that my relationship with God is any less powerful or forfilling. just means if descruction comes i wont be part of the advance party although my thoughts will always be with God right up until the last breath. i think some of things i learnt through the bks helped enhance my life. i found it a very lonely lifestyle when I was fully involved for so many years. i think now ive found a sense of peace with myself and i still have friends at the centres and i still go now and then Ive finally rid myself of the guilt of living my life in a different way to how they wanted to me too. thank you for letting me have my say - kyra
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:16 am Post subject: |
kyra wrote:
Quote:
i feel the same that there is no place for me within the BKs because I dont want to be a diety queen in the next cycle and have everyone wait on me and do all my chores, sometimes i got a bit annoyed at always feeling like it was a carrot being dangled in front of me and i wasnt interested in being royal etc and i certaintly dont feel that my friends and family are any less because they are not BKs, they are still good people and do their best always to be happy and make others happy and follow a good lifestyle. To think that in the end they will all die a painful death at the end because they were not brahmins horrifys me. (also in the murlies) I just wanted to be close to God, do my best for myself and others around me and enjoy the experience of being in this body. Its only now that Ive finally stopped beating myself up and feeling guilty because I have a boyfriend and that we can still have love for each other and be good people and happy even if we are sleeping together, i dont see that my relationship with God is any less powerful or forfilling. just means if descruction comes i wont be part of the advance party although my thoughts will always be with God right up until the last breath.
Dear kyra, First of all, let me wish you a warm welcome to the XBK forum. I am sure that the other XBKs would join me in saying a hearty "welcome" to you. What you wrote resonates with me. In the first page of the the topic "Why I left the Brahma Kumaris" I dealt with the issue of "Fear in the BK movement". I are glad that you are here and, from what I have seen so far, I know that you are going to be a good and interesting contributor. Once again, welcome to the forum!
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:33 am Post subject: |
Kyra, it sounds like you've really come along way on your post B.K. spiritual path! It's inspirational to read. I am glad you bring up the issue of guilt. Yes, the murlis also made me feel guilty and ashamed for being human and for not being fully content as a brahmin. I also felt anger on some level. These judgements were unfair towards myself and towards like you say, the very good people in my life. This anger would usually lead to more guilt. I once asked a senior sister about this, why did the murlis seek to cultivate this guilt. I was then told that the majority of people did not feel this, that most people saw the speaker of the murlis as only loving and supportive. The sister then told me there must be something wrong with me, something in my past that would make me interpret the murlis that way. More guilt. Though I've been able to distance myself from much of this, I haven't been able to rid myself of all the guilt. I still carry around the wretched burden of thinking my spiritual growth will be stunted if I'm in a relationship. This is something I definitely need to work through... Other than that the path towards reaccepting my humanity has been a joyous one. Recovering my feelings of enjoyment for earthly pleasures, not having having to interpret my spiritual experiences through b.k. paradigms, having the freedom to develop my own set of truths by which to live life has been wonderful. Look forward to hearing more from you, Kyra!
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject: |
Welcome kyra Looks like you have the right stuff Isabel and gyaniwasi, thanks for the compliments. I would definitely like to share more. In fact, we can all share. I have started a topic called "Life after the BKs" in the new "XBKs only" forum that Admin created for us. To hop across there to see my post just click on this link: http://www.xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewforum.php?f=5 Looking forward to interacting with you all there...
casa Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 12 |
Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Post-BK spiritual growth |
[quote="isabel"] As a B.K., spiritual growth is easy in some senses becuase it's a follow-the-recipe approach. Adhering to B.K. precepts means significant meditation time is always built into one's day, a dose of food for thought is handed out at 6:30am each morning, and there's a standing list of virtues to be cultivating. Yes, yes, I know; we have to find our own answers now. Mustering up the energy and the discipline to do this requires tremendous inner resources . I also buy into the notion that following a spiritual path alongside other people is easier because this facilitates the manifestation of spiritual energies and beings. In going it alone one looses access to that communal spiritual energy boost as well. quote] It's interesting Isabel, as a current bk but not a rule stickler, i have so many of the same challenges that you articulate. I'm long over the guilt of not being up at 3.45 each day or attending class at a centre. I haven't totally given up but i certainly don't beat myself up over it. I am very much enjoying the mature company of a diverse group of bks who love to discuss deeply the murli. REcently however i was at a more traditional centre and I felt like i had gone back 10 years... all the trite 'points' and inappropriate joking about destruction. I am very much involved in my bk life. I think the challenges of a new routine etc. can come whether current or xbk. Ideally we'd do stuff because we love it and understand the benefits. However a lot of bk adherence to the guidance is out of fear or hope. I have this sense that we equate the early days 'bliss' with rule following. However as the bliss wears off, we keep following the rules, not getting the results. We have to face this disconnect in belief sooner or later otherwise it leads to all sort of distortions - whether you stay or leave. At some point i reckon many of us go through a crisis of faith and have to find our way through to love and regard for ourselves and the lifestyle rather than need for approval - from god, seniors or bk community. i love your postings Isabel... so real, so kind and authentic. travel well
administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48 |
Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:09 am Post subject: |
Here are two posts which were made by Bhagirath in the XBKs only forum. They were transferred here because, at the time these posts were made, Bhagirath was not cleared to post in the exclusive forum. Permission has now been given to Bhagirath to post in the "XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY" forum First post: om shanti, i am very happy to be able to talk with other ex bks, and so grateful to the creator of this site for all of this. I need to ask if you still beleive the knowledge as i am xbk and still have faith in knowledge but lost faith in the brahmin family. I am concerned to read of the spiritual void which has manifested in mind of some xbks, this is not so good. I do understand very well how difficult it can be to return to the old age without the sustenence of murli and avyakt bapdada. However, i also think that to be able to stand as a true individual is worth so much more than struggling in brahmin life which has become the best example of spiritual heirarchy and politics under the guise of peace and purity, this is my opinion of course. It is very subtle, subtle power games, subtle hostilty etc amongst the brahmin family which is very sad. What i did was to go and revise the knowledge given and think with clarity again. Knowledge now seems to me to be universal truth and if we are all self respecting individuals it will be possible for us to actually help ourselves and others wherever we are and whatever we are doing. You have all the power that you will ever have, no one can give it to you and no one can take it away, shivbabas duty is to remind us all, this is why we feel so grateful to shivbaba, there is no curse if you do not stay in brahmin life, all this soul power and god power is available to you all the time. I think the problem for me was to cloud the simple truth in issues all relating to brahmin life, what the dadis say, not feeling good enough to live that kind of life, all of that is so damaging to the mind. We are all resposible only for ourselves, in gyan we are told we were never created and will never die. ok, so why am i relying on brahmin life to give me everything, even brahma baba is no longer in body. Every day in murli the points are all of knowledge, time , eternity, power of peace etc. It is very easy to come into the gathering and feel wonderful, but remove the gathering and do we still feel wonderful? I think that this is the challenge of post bk life. To remain stable and with self respect come what may. It should not matter about what is going on around us, we are eternal beings, this is good, no? How much freedom is there in eternity? Of course, you may not believe in eternity any more. I would like to know what other xbks think of knowledge now in xbk life? I say eternity exists only at this moment of time, not in future golden age, not is past kaliyug, but now, this is our freeedom to live with peace and the awareness of NOW gives you all the power you need. Second post, made April 26, 2004:
Quote:
thanks for removing my post, i am certainly NOT a pbk and am also trying to re-adjust to life after living brahmin life. I just thought i was sharing what i had thought independent of bks.
Last edited by administrator on Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:57 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
It's interesting Isabel, as a current bk but not a rule stickler, i have so many of the same challenges that you articulate. I'm long over the guilt of not being up at 3.45 each day or attending class at a centre. I haven't totally given up but i certainly don't beat myself up over it. I am very much enjoying the mature company of a diverse group of bks who love to discuss deeply the murli. REcently however i was at a more traditional centre and I felt like i had gone back 10 years... all the trite 'points' and inappropriate joking about destruction. I am very much involved in my bk life. I think the challenges of a new routine etc. can come whether current or xbk. Ideally we'd do stuff because we love it and understand the benefits. However a lot of bk adherence to the guidance is out of fear or hope. I have this sense that we equate the early days 'bliss' with rule following. However as the bliss wears off, we keep following the rules, not getting the results. We have to face this disconnect in belief sooner or later otherwise it leads to all sort of distortions - whether you stay or leave. At some point i reckon many of us go through a crisis of faith and have to find our way through to love and regard for ourselves and the lifestyle rather than need for approval - from god, seniors or bk community
I find what you say very interesting, Casa. Coming out of a center where doubts were never really discussed, I had the feeling that I was the only one who felt the way I did. Yet looking back, levels of participation differed considerably among the old-timers. No one discussed what they had taken on board and what they hadn't. I just assumed they were all dutifully up at 4am meditating. It seems such a pity that there isn't a more open forum within the B.K.s to discuss how to selectively incorporate knowledge and to disucss spirituality in non-strictly B.K. terms. I recognize, however that it would take a lot of guts on the part of a B.K. to participate honestly in such forum as the mere mention of doubts sends one tumbling towards siver aged status in the eyes of ones fellows. But as you say, one shouldn't let onesself be bothered by that, hard as it might be. It sounds like you've found sympathetic comrades though AND that there really is a geography to the degree of dogma practiced at different centers.
casa Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 12 |
Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 8:32 am Post subject: |
Isabel thanks for your thoughts... yes I am lucky i have found some 'comrades'. I remember being in Madhuban year before last and waiting to say goodbye to Dadi J. A brother I know from another country came and sat with me and asked me how my stay had been. I said that I had been on a journey to the heart of doubt! "What" he exclaimed. "After more than 10 years you still doubt Baba!?". I remember being a bit shaken but then thinking that while I carry this trait/sanskara of relentless truth seeking, it is a good thing and in the end I will arrive at MY destination because it's true, and real and because I have made it my own. Right now here in my home town, there is quite a bit of meeting and conversation - open forum - about change. I don't believe the holders of the status quo really want change - don't see the need for it really... genuinely don't - but at least there is the opporutnity for the dialogue. Mostly I am concentrating on getting my act together with god... i'm feeling more and more that the political arena in any org whether 'spiritual' or 'worldly' is a major distraction from the main game. All blessings to us both Isabel as we travel toward truth and love.
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