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jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: A N O M A L I E S AND I N C O N S I S T E N C I E S |
A word of thanks firstly to those who set up this much needed site and also to the many inspiring contributors. Came into RY back in 1983. Why did I join? Probably for some of the same reasons as you all did. The philosophy appeared to be quite unusual, original and convincing, initially. There were no fees involved and the elders were not swanning around in Ferraris, lording it over the hoi polloi. The social aspect was welcoming, people were very friendly and decent, and the ideals within the movement appeared to be the highest possible, with God apparently behind it all. And with not much else out there in an at times depressing and empty world, RY offered self-preservation in this life and beyond. I felt special and very lucky. In the beginning I found the philosophy re cycle, karma, God etc quite ingenious with unlimited potential, totally unlike any of the vacuous nonsense I’d heard before. I was enthralled by it and it appeared water-tight, and I was greatly encouraged by the fact that the teacher giving me the class seemed quite open to discussing anything and everything. The whole skeleton of the cycle seemed eminently plausible with just the finer details to be ironed out. But as the years went by and the intermittent murli attendances were chalked up I gradually realised that the gaps were not going to be filled in. We were going to have to make do with our own fanciful speculation. The seniors were either inaccessible, disinterested in discussing certain issues, or too busy disseminating information on the vaguer stuff. The deity himself apparently, couldn’t be bothered addressing any of the issues or commenting about any of the anomalies. Disappointment and frustration set in and since I wasn’t getting mind-altering experiences in meditation I began to drift further and further away. Here are the main issues that bothered me right from the start which I perhaps foolishly let go: 1. The ridiculously short cycle, the history of which obviously cannot be stuffed into so small a box. Unless the Minoans were silver-aged, and the Atlanteans, and when one considers the size of the Assyrians kings’ list, and the dynasties of the Pharaohs, and the Chinese pre-Taoist kingdoms, and the history of Israel from Abraham to Jesus, including wars with Syria, Babylon and Rome, the fall of the first and second temples, the captivity in Babylon until the emancipation by Cyrus, the reign of Saul and Solomon and all the kings after Jeroboam, the disappearance of the ten tribes, the long prophetic period, the early Talmudic period leading up to Jesus………….you just can’t fit it all into less than 500 years from the end of the Silver age. It would appear to me that Brahma who came from a very poor village had little education and had little knowledge of ancient history, had just conjured up the figure himself, it simply tied in with some of his Hindu beliefs. I’ve never come across any scientific writings (apart from a small section of musings by Velikovsky) that would allow for such a short cycle. I’ve always thought that a 10,000 year cycle would sound reasonable, but a 5,000 year one was just plain daft and simply not credible. It contradicts almost everything that we know, historical, archaeological and cultural evidence. I was always puzzled as to why the deity never spoke on the issue, and was never questioned on an issue that is so fundamental. It’s almost as ridiculous as saying that the cycle is a few hundred years old. Out of thousands of murlis (most of them repeating the same old points in the same old boring fashion) with not one word on the issue. I can’t be the only one who has been troubled by such silence. I was always told from the start that the scientists will gradually come round to cyclic time, that all the evidence is moving in the BK direction, it’s only a matter of time, alas not so. To quote a guest on this site: I was always busy - from the beginning - in researching all the science in it. I always thought it was a matter of time before I would hit on some plausible theories ... they never came. 2. I remember sitting in front of Gulzar/Shiva having being told that if I wanted to ask any questions in English they would have to be translated into Hindi so that “God could understand!!!!!!!!”........yeah, right! Periodically this one used to really bug me. 3. Throughout approx. 10 years in the institution I never really got to find out much about this inscrutable God person. What exactly does he do apart from a bit of lecturing/teaching? Too many simple questions were never answered about the being. Does he meet souls each time they die? What does he do for people of all the other religions or the non-religious? Is he responsible for miracles?. Is he little more than a warm fuzzy feeling that we sometimes get in life? Does he communicate with souls in the soul world? Does he tell each non-bk at the end of the cycle that they happen to not belong to the elite and they can now say bye bye to heaven? If he loves us all what does he do for us all, how does he show that love? This Shiva might give some kind of introduction but the introduction for me was, and is, minimal. For 2,500 years he says he does nothing but as regards the other half I’m no wiser. What involvement does he have in other religions, does he intervene in people’s lives, does he put ideas into people’s heads, does he answer prayer, does he know everything, does he know what I’m thinking, why is he so revered, what has he ever done for mankind, according to the BK’s he never even made the world. It’s tricky trying to think about someone all day long when you don’t know much about them. I think if most BK’s were honest they would say that their best meditation experiences occurred when they visualised idyllic scenes/interactions i.e. the experiences were of their own making and not due to any mystical interaction with a deity. Similar experiences can probably be got elsewhere in other faiths or practices. Also the logistics of meditation are never explained fully by the BKWSU. Souls cannot think or act outside the body, yet Shiva who is identical in form apparently can. In order to become pure it is necessary to visualise God as a form of light and a point of energy. Somehow this is meant to bring magical and cleansing results, whereas other forms of contemplation of God as practiced by other faiths e.g. sincere prayer, are deemed to be quite ineffective and worthless. Apparently the moody deity only responds when you call him by his correct name, he is strangely peeved and hard of hearing when someone gets his name wrong or is confused as to his real identity. Also the obscure wavelength of communication with Shiva is strangely only one way. Even when the mind is made still and peaceful rarely do you hear of BK’s honestly describing God contacting them. I remember myself sitting in front of “God”, locking into the experience and waiting to be hit by a thunderbolt of love/peace/ecstasy/whatever, I couldn’t have been more focussed or more soul-conscious, but nothing happened, what an anti-climax! On all the occasions I practised meditation I almost always felt that it was me creating my own experience, there was no outside force trying to get through to me. 4. Was always troubled by the lack of evidence of a Golden Age. Everything associated with it appears to have conveniently disappeared, everything totally destroyed, palaces and vemans vaporised! And again at the end of the Iron Age all evidence is wiped clean again, how? And with such destruction going on twice every cycle, how does anyone survive to propagate the species. I never got any answers on this kind of stuff. Is the ocean of knowledge more pond-like in nature? I once was told that everywhere on the planet from A to Y gets pulverised at the end of the Iron Age. Those living in Z then migrate to somewhere from A to Y (the animals probably following two by two). Then Z gets pulverised. As usual no more detail is provided to explain this convenient and childish stop-gap. 5. Those souls who suffer dreadful pain and deprivation in the early days of the Copper Age (lepers, for example) well, who are they? They couldn’t be new souls, and they couldn’t be BK’s since BK’s only start getting a hard time at the end of the Iron age, so who are they? One of the seniors I spoke to on the issue hinted that they fell into another category, but then clammed up completely and said that she didn’t want to elaborate. Next here’s a bunch of secondary issues, they never bothered me as much: 1. The dreadfully boring sakar murlis. Time after time I went to class with pen and paper, ending up with just a blank sheet. It’s puzzling how a Supreme Being can only come up with rather banal prose. I never went to class with any sense of excited anticipation as to what was God going to talk about today. It was just the same old rambling rhetoric, a hotchpotch of praise and threat, insights into Hindu trivia, and the 7 day course hammered and re-hashed again and again. I was told that the same murlis are recycled every 3 years (I’m not too sure about this). All the old writings are not available for BK consumption. This would mean that over 90% of God’s words between 1936 and 1969 are deemed by some authority to be not worth examining. My guess is that the sakars were the thoughts and ramblings of Brahma and/or a bodiless guide, and after a while he ran out of things to say and resorted to just repeating himself. I always thought they were ungodlike, needlessly repetitive, poorly structured and guilt laden. I don’t know much about Brahma’s life story but the naivety of his letter to King George of England telling him about the end of the world, the length of the cycle and the coming of God really beggars belief. 2. The waffly, rambling avyakt murlis - I couldn’t get much from them. And why are they so different from the sakars when they are meant to be spoken by the same person? And why the change of voice? Is it that the Avyakts are simply the ruminations of Gulzar or some other bodiless guide channelled through her, different from Brahma’s “guide”? An old xbk who wishes to remain anonymous described them once to me as follows: The Avyakts are classic carrot-and-stick operations. First you are praised to the sky, then you are undercut completely. You are the light of the world – but on second thought, there are three kinds of light, and the kind you happen to be is so filthy and rotten, that you are a light in name only. But there is still a chance for you – if you are perfect from now on and come to class every day – maybe. Meanwhile shut up and do what the Dadi tells you. To those who are the real lights of the world, love, remembrance and namaste, yours truly, God. Some of the Murlis do contain tantalizing hints of deeper information – but the promise is never fulfilled – and the Dadis will never follow up on the hints, and if you push them they’ll tell you you’re not pure enough to understand. 3. I could never understand why God only appeared or appears a few times a year, the visits over time, as far as I know, are becoming less and less frequent. With very little time left you’d think he’d be coming more regularly. Is he too busy to visit Madhuban? If the visits have simply diminished in frequency due to Gulzar’s health then it merely bolsters the case that Bapdada is only Gulzar 4. I’ve seen it stated in many murlis that:”there is no need to remember Brahma and no need to keep pictures of him”. Yet every centre seemed to make him overly prominent. 5. All the so-called trivia: flags on the moon and space probes finding their way back to earth; carnivores, insects, mosquitoes and venus fly traps in the GA……. Dinosaurs….reproduction by humans in the GA….reproduction by animals in the GA………..decay of animal carcasses in the GA…….the mechanics of Dharamraj…..purpose of sex organs in GA………karma for animals….whether trees have souls……….advance parties……..animals surviving destruction……..extinct species getting re-introduced………the planet speedily recovering from radiation poisoning….. aliens……ghosts………in-between body states…..the death experience……..profound differences between races - no clarification on any of this stuff, not even a brief comment. 6. Could never understand or get information and insight into the soul world (never mind the subtle regions)…..a world of peace and quiet…..does any thought exist there…..does any action occur there…..is it just a state of nothingness……never heard anything but the briefest of explanations. Again another filler-in. An ex bk describes it as follows: the soul world is perhaps an expedient solution to the problem of where do souls come from before they enter the cycle. Just a fix to make the whole cycle/tree philosophy work and from a reason/purpose point of view utterly useless. 7. 1976 controversy and the ‘Shankar party’, brushed under the carpet, nothing published by the institution on the matter, the plebs are again forced to speculate. 8. The trivialization of other faiths: Christianity, Buddhism, Islam etc. They have no place in heaven, they’ve had their day and are destined to just fizzle out at the end. 9. The BK philosophy is unpublished and generally speaking unchallenged as a result. If time is so short then what are they so afraid of? Is it that the 5,000 year cycle would be ridiculed by the scientific community? And why the sneaky covert approach, disguising it as some innocuous relaxation course? Why the subterfuge and the elaborate smokescreen? Why not make the whole philosophy transparent and let the media have a good look at it all? What have they got to lose? 10. The BK practice of not eating onions, garlic and eggs. Very wishy-washy reasons given for this. It would appear to be something just borrowed from an ancient custom of the Brahmin caste. 11. The unwillingness to answer questions and encourage a questioning mind and the fanciful speculation and dishonest manoeuvrings that dominate. To quote Atma on the dinosaur issue:
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I wish that BKs would have the humility and honesty to be straightforward and say: "We really don't know. We really don't have a feasible explanation for this issue". Instead, they either shrug it off as being inconsequential - which it certainly is NOT - or bluff their way by giving some pseudo scientific, unconvincing, hocus pocus answer. They know that those "answers" can't bear scrutiny. Hence, the total absence of BKs texts on the subject. In any case, with "God" as your source, why the need for conjecture and theory? He has been speaking to them for nearly 70 years. Surely he has had adequate time to give an answer to this question.....but he has not.
On inadequate responses - Gyaniwasi:
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What is important to recognize, however, is that having started on the path to salvation or "jeewan mukti" that first faith……must be able to accommodate and rationalise any contradictions that may arise as a result of our unfolding civilization. If it fails to do so then "as children" we have a right to ask our "Heavenly Father" for explanations or answers - just as a child in growing up deserves a better answer than "the stork dropped the baby from the sky" in response to questions about the origin of a baby. If the parent continues to give the same answer as the child grows older then the child would lose faith in the reliability and integrity of the parent and would go elsewhere for answers.
12. Trance messages. Permit me to quote Paul:
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The practice of offering bhog on Thursdays still goes on but the trance messages have been discontinued. I enquired discreetly and eventually found out that a directive was issued to discontinue the practice because some of the more junior trance messengers were giving 'mixed messages' - i.e. maya interference or putting their own thoughts and "spin" on the messages. Things like this make one wonder how 'perfect' is the source and the system. Surely, an all knowing entity would have foreseen this development and only appointed mature and accurate trance messengers. Anyway....where's the salt shaker?
13. Again to quote Paul:
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Gyan says that the language of the Golden Age was / will be Hindi. How can that be?!!! That would mean that Hindi precedes Prakrit and Sanskrit !!! Tell that to any Indologist, world historian or linguistic anthropologist, and you will be laughed out of court. Simply put, to say that Hindi existed and came before Sanskrit is ridiculous. It is just further evidence (as if more was needed) that the "knowledge" is nonsensical, unhistoric and illogical.
14. Then there’s the whole fear trip. Paul again:
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Fear of suffering for past bad karma that is not burnt off. Fear of punishment for displeasing Baba in one of innumerable ways. Fear of not measuring up to his impossibly high standards. Fear of not making adequate "effort" resulting in a low "status" in the Golden Age. Fear of not even making the Golden Age, and starting one's first birth in the less attractive Silver Age. Fear of failing the test "in the final moments". Fear of painful bodily suffering during the terrible time of world destruction by nuclear war and natural calamities. That "time of destruction" is hammered home in murlis and hangs like a malignant cloud over your head. Fear of punishment even after leaving the body - one begins to hear about the "Tribunal" that will review one's actions in this life, pass judgment and then dispense stern punishment. This, coupled with the 24/7 commitment and demands for constant "remembrance" and "service" begins to wear the soul down. After a while, the price of "going to heaven" seems to be a bit much.
15. The inequality of it all which has little or no effect on the Indians. Atma:
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I have a theory, and here I don't mean to upset anyone...just being frank, that's all. I think that because of the deep seated place of caste in Hindu history, culture, religion and psyche, Hindus are, for the most part, quite comfortable with a world view of human INequality. It has become ingrained in their nature. So much so, that they accept the inherent unfairness and inhumanity of the scheme as laid out in the knowledge. It doesn't trouble them in the least. They don't give it a second thought. They don't bat an eye.
16. The whole philosophy of karma is not explained. Just a brief reference to reaping what you sow, but again no detail. Do rapists become victims of rape in a future life? Do murderers get murdered? The mechanics of karma are not scrutinised. The deity appears to be indifferent to the debate and chooses to stay out of it. And the BKWSU have nothing to explain sickening and apparently pointless suffering. What does it achieve? Since all the religions of the world have been perplexed at various times by obscene levels of pain you’d think that an organisation with God as a living mouthpiece would have a bit more to say on the matter. Apparently no. 17. See elsewhere on this site the link to Eugene Romain’s epic on child protection, obligatory reading for anyone interested in knowing more about the BKWSU. 18. After 70 years the BK’s are not making a big impact in India and still have not made any real inroads in the West. In my own city I could question 1,000 people on the street and be lucky to come across just one person who had even heard of the BKWSU, never mind know something about their philosophy. There does not appear to be any Golden Age just around the corner. The cycle appears to be little more than an Indo-centric, myopic, naïve, romantic idea. 19. Lastly the incidental stuff: power trips, bullying, lack of acceptance of where others are at, hassling and hustling of students to get to class, get up early in the morning, do service etc., licking up to VIP’s, excessive and nauseating use of BK-speak, dadi worship, unnecessary adoption by Westerners of all things Indian e.g. gaddis, rituals, food, saris, baggy pj’s, shawls – most of this is to be expected as it’s simply down to over-eager, well-meaning or fanatical individuals. Since I became an XBK another major anomaly has surfaced. World population is now 6.4 billion. According to the BK’s the max figure is 5.5 billion. This gives a percentage discrepancy of over 16% way outside a 5% error which is usually acknowledged in standard statistics. Each day that passes world population grows making the BK’s definitive statistic even more untenable. The simplest argument is usually the correct one i.e. that the BK philosophy is just romantic thinking. That’s all the inconsistencies I can think of. I’m sure there’s many more, it’s been quite a few years since I’ve thought about these things. BKWSU revisited, I guess. Liz Hodgkinson in her book about the BK’s remarked that there were no skeletons in the cupboard within the movement. She can’t be serious. Please add to the list anything I might have left out or challenge any of the points made. Jim Brady
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: A N O M A L I E S AND I N C O N S I S T E N C I E S |
jim brady wrote:
[size=18] Please add to the list anything I might have left out or challenge any of the points made.
Additions perhaps; a ) The seniors of the Brahma Kumari Organisation being responsible for investing in mortgages, insurances and investment schemes when the end of the world was going to happen the week after next, *whilst* encouraging junior to give up their wealth, education, and careers and NOT to involvement themselves in the same or business because it would be " too much of a pull on the [junior's] intellect ". [ It ought to be noted that the India BKs were not as susceptible to following this advice as the white boys and it would be interesting to review the BK finances as it would be review how many BKs had a Life Insurance Policy. Does *ANY* BK know of when an accountable public report of institutional accounts were ever made to members? No? Probably " too much of a pull on one's intellect " and of no benefit to think of worldly things. ] b) Not just the complete lack of encouragement and support for individuals to manage their practical affairs [ e.g. career, finances etc ] but in fact the active discouragement from doing so [ e.g., give up career, lower ambitions, ignore financial planning etc ]. This applies mostly to younger individual at the start of their life heavily under the influence of the Brahma Kumaris. I'd like to underline the hypocrisy of the senior and middling BKs in sucking up and encouraging the sucking up to *ANYONE* with the merest hint of status or professional standing. On the one hand young BK were instructed to give up education, careers and aspiring to any sense of " worldly " excellence; on the other hand the BKs were all over and after anyone that had already achieved it. On the one hand BK were forbidded to directly profit financially in any possible manner from what they were taught; on the other individuals who already had a status in, for example psychology or management consulting were given license to exploit their " God " taken " Knowledge [tm] ". c) All the emphasis on perfecting one's sanskars to become perfect in every way and ready for the Golden Age *EXCEPT* the traits that allowed or forced the sisters to eat as much sugar and fat rich processed food that they became as fat and sick as stuffed factory farmed pigs. And a few brothers too. [ Presumably, this was so that their bodies would not be a pull on the intellect of the white brothers but it would have cause problems with the Hindis ... ]. Eating natural, whole or healthfood was " bhakti " - and what a word or condemnation, rejection and scorn that was / is. Organic was a waste of time because everything was impure and going to be destroyed anyway. A complete denial of any responsibility and relationship of good health management over the physical body *AND* the criticism and persecution of anyone that suggest a personal choice or interest in that direction, e.g. an interest in healthfood or exercise. d) The use of the word " bhakti " - which translates as all and any other religious paths except Raja Yoga [ including stuff like Tai Chi, Yoga, martial arts as well as the major and minor cult religions ] - as what a word or condemnation, rejection and scorn internally while externally the BKs sucked up to and organised interfaith programmes. e) Shiva's regular beef with that Islamic conqueror of India several hundred years before that used to come up regularly. What relevance did that honestly have to my spiritual develpment!?! I cant remember the name right now.
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
Quote:
e) Shiva's regular beef with that Islamic conqueror of India several hundred years before that used to come up regularly. What relevance did that honestly have to my spiritual develpment!?! I cant remember the name right now.
The 'culprit' is Mahmud Ghaznavi. Here is an extract on his exploits. This is taken from: http://orbat.com/site/cimh/kings_master/kings/mahmud_ghaznavi/Mahmud%20Ghaznavi.html
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Somnath & The Hindu Psyche The most famous and terrible invasion launched by Mahmud was his sixteenth, against the Somnath Temple in Gujrat, western India. This was an immense distance from Ghanzni, but one supposes by now he was so feared that he had easy passage. The Somnath temple was very famous for its treasures. There were one thousand priests to serve the temple. Hundreds of dancers and singers played before its gate. There was famous Linga, a rude pillar stone, adorned with gems embroidered with precious like stars, which decorated the shrine. The brave Hindu Rajputs came forward to defend the temple. Shouting 'Allah hu Akbar', the enemy tried to entered into the temple. The Hindus fought very bravely and the invaders could not damage the temple. The battle lasted for three days. After three days, the invaders succeeded and entered into the Somnath temple. Mahmud ordered his men to destroy the sacred idol, Linga. He looted the treasures of the temple. It is said that he got wealth worth 20-million Dinars, eighty times the already huge sum he had gained on his first invasion.
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
Wah wah Jim ! What a post! You have shared in spades - comprehensively - based on experience and observation. You wrote from the heart and from the head, and I commend you for that. You have given much food for thought and I will return to 'nibble' on some of the points you raised. For now, let me go off on a (slight) tangent and raise a related issue. By now, nearly 70 years from the begining of the movement, the "Anomalies and Inconsistencies" have grown to significant proportions. They have increased in number and importance. So much so, that they can no longer be ignored - especially when taken together. There is an elephant in the room. The Emperor has no clothes. We XBKs are cognizant of these issues. Indeed, they played a part in many of us becoming XBKs. What I am wondering about is this: Those who have invested (their beings) heavily in the BK world view, those who are still involved and commited - do you think that these anomalies penetrate their shield in any way? Do these things make even a slight dent in their awareness and certainty? And, as time goes by and the fallacies loom larger, will they gradually come to accept that there is something fundamentally wrong in the scheme that they so eagerly and whole heartedly embraced for so long? If they come to those crossroads, can you see a complete psychological meltdown happening? Would their psyches and sense of identity be totally devastated ? Would deep depression, pent up anger and suicide follow? Will they feel a deep sense of shame and betrayal? Could they ever recover? Could they ever heal? If not - weird as it sounds - are they not better off living in delusion and denial? Seriously. Once again "Kudos!"
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
Atma wrote:
Quote:
We XBKs are cognizant of these issues. Indeed, they played a part in many of us becoming XBKs. What I am wondering about is this: Those who have invested (their beings) heavily in the BK world view, those who are still involved and commited - do you think that these anomalies penetrate their shield in any way? Do these things make even a slight dent in their awareness and certainty? And, as time goes by and the fallacies loom larger, will they gradually come to accept that there is something fundamentally wrong in the scheme that they so eagerly and whole heartedly embraced for so long? If they come to those crossroads, can you see a complete psychological meltdown happening? Would their psyches and sense of identity be totally devastated ? Would deep depression , pent up anger and suicide follow? Will they feel a deep sense of shame and betrayal? Could they ever recover? Could they ever heal? If not - weird as it sounds - are they not better off living in delusion and denial? Seriously.
[My empahsis in italics] Good point Atma. Actually I think many have long chosen to live in delusion and denial. Some premanently so; others, until another experience replaces their present faith. [somehow, my thoughts run on the sudden shutdown of the Australian site, remember that?] The alternative is to live in what has been elsewhere described as "an existential void." That can be terrifying - that living in uncertainty. Like many of us have experienced, that kind of disillusion can lead to deep depression (like the morning heaviness that weighs you down in bed), pent up anger (remember young Kevin?), and even suicide (like the case of Wally, to whom tributes have been paid on this site). So the psyche has a way of protecting itself instinctively by denial or "blanking it out." I think sometime ago you tried to deal with this by opening a topic on alternative lifestyles but it didn't get very far. The problem is that counselling is required while a new lifestyle is being developed. Counselling is a special skill, requiring much empathy and I guess the closest we can get to that on this site is to share experiences in frank and open discussions like this one. Take care. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
onepoint Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 5 |
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:21 am Post subject: Fascinating... |
Fascinating posts... It would be ambitious even to attempt a coherent and comprehensive answer to these many questions. But i have copied these posts so that i can type my responses to them offline. If something suitable comes up, will respond. i came late to this party (the BKs) but i have spent over a decade here. i was an atheist before. It took me about 2 months to get a hang of the basics of the course but since then, its been good going. i find a lot depends on our perspective. And we deepen our perspectives by pondering about the information presented to us. i have always had difficulty in just accepting something at face value. Yet, i have also welcomed and appreciated alternate viewpoints. Everything can seem right from some perspective. And everything can seem wrong from another. We don't have to necessarily agree or disagree to different viewpoints. Understanding them however, is quite an enriching exercise. i personally enjoy the Sakar murlis for the depth they yield. And i also commonly hear the complaint that they are boring, repetitive and no value addition. The Avyakt murlis are simple and topical. Quite a tonic. ( BTW: i loved that perspective about how the Avyakt murli goes about... and brandishes a stick after dangling all the carrots... ) But the Sakar murlis are where i get insights into different aspects of life. So are the others all wrong, and i am just brilliant in deciphering the truth that is so unexplainably well hidden? Oh not at all. Each viewpoint is right in some sense...and what has been highlighted in this topic is practical experience by not one but many. All i can offer at this moment is my experience that it all matters on our perspective. And that people have different experiences even though the situation is the same. Thanks for bringing up these thoughts. i don't think there can be "answers". But i hope to attempt some responses one day. Enjoy your journey... Best Wishes, * _________________ Wonder what that point is all about...
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
While you're considering this topic from the point of view of perspectives buddy, consider also the internal and external logical consistency of what you arrive at: what is logically consistent within gyan should also be logically consistent with what is outside its boundaries in terms of progressive human knowledge and our experience of living in both worlds. God bless. Fraternally, Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
onepoint Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 5 |
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: |
Certainly Gy. Given that each theory should be falsifiable, the entire content of gyan is subject to question. At the same time, the entire content of what is considered progressive knowledge is also falsifiable. As long as a theory (whether its considered a fact by someone or not) seems to hold water while maintaining its basic assumptions, it is fair game. The basic assumptions should also seem to be reasonable in some context. (This is subjective, but i guess that's how assumptions are made). Ultimately human knowledge (my understanding fully included ) is limited. Experiences have their value but are subjective too and could be based on one's own mind games... So i tend to form perspectives that get refined or rejected with further study in course of time. Somehow, someday...i feel i'll finally get there. (That summit, like any other, will probably also mark the beginning of descent, but will handle that if and when it comes... ) regards, * _________________ Wonder what that point is all about...
Mr Green Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 41 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
as an xbk, reading these things is extremely refreshing, to know I am not insane, or a failed shudra entering into a special hell that is reserved only for those fools that divorce the father etc
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
Oh no! You're one of those malcontent shudras too LOL
jim brady wrote:
16. The whole philosophy of karma is not explained. Just a brief reference to reaping what you sow, but again no detail. Do rapists become victims of rape in a future life?
This is exactly what I was told by a BK sister. Word for word, in fact. Any victim of rape was invariably a rapist in "a former incarnation" This tidbit of information did untold torment to my head at the time, and I had no one to confirm its accuracy Another variation of old "they brought it all on themselves" guilt trip as far as I can see. Hey, even unconsciously. Now that's clever!
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
Atma wrote:
For now, let me go off on a (slight) tangent and raise a related issue. By now, nearly 70 years from the begining of the movement, the "Anomalies and Inconsistencies" have grown to significant proportions. They have increased in number and importance. So much so, that they can no longer be ignored - especially when taken together. There is an elephant in the room. The Emperor has no clothes. We XBKs are cognizant of these issues. Indeed, they played a part in many of us becoming XBKs. What I am wondering about is this: Those who have invested (their beings) heavily in the BK world view, those who are still involved and commited - do you think that these anomalies penetrate their shield in any way? Do these things make even a slight dent in their awareness and certainty? And, as time goes by and the fallacies loom larger, will they gradually come to accept that there is something fundamentally wrong in the scheme that they so eagerly and whole heartedly embraced for so long?
Dear Atma and all, The short and unhelpful answer is that some BK's will become XBK's but others won't, according to karma. Some will see an elephant and others won't. Anomalies are not going to affect those who are in a state of spiritual intoxication, and this spiritual charge may last one year, ten years or a lifetime. In terms of the BK organisation as a whole, it's like there are revolving doors, so while some members are lost to XBKdom, new souls are entering, hearing the knowledge for the first time, of which some will stay and become BK's and maybe later XBK's and so it goes on. Of course it will be interesting to see what happens in the longer term if we are still around. There are phases of growth in any new religious movement, for example early expansion then perhaps a plateau or decline, but it’s hard to say how BKWSU are doing in numerical terms – I guess we would need statistics to know this. The departure of Dada Lekhraj in 1969 is of course very significant in terms of a watershed but many of the first generation dadis are still here and so BKWSU is still quite young in terms of a religion. People have all kinds of metaphysical / religious beliefs which cannot all be true, and as many of these beliefs are unfalsifiable and things can't be proved one way or the other, we have a certain freedom to believe whatever we like. How could the BKWSU religion be proved ‘fundamentally wrong’? The end of the world is a future event so by definition it could still happen. I guess at some point it would become difficult to keep saying that the apocalypse is just around the corner. I don’t know what that point is but I don’t think we have reached it yet.
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If they come to those crossroads, can you see a complete psychological meltdown happening? Would their psyches and sense of identity be totally devastated ? Would deep depression, pent up anger and suicide follow? Will they feel a deep sense of shame and betrayal? Could they ever recover? Could they ever heal? If not - weird as it sounds - are they not better off living in delusion and denial? Seriously.
‘Denial’ suggests repression of doubt so of course this is not healthy and cases of 'psychological meltdown' have been mentioned on this forum. But I think there are many BK's who are genuinely happy and have no doubts to repress, because doubts do not occur to them. In other words I don't think that all BK's are necessarily in denial, but even if a BK is in denial we have to then compare this to other forms of denial, rather than no denial. I would say that most of the world live in delusion and denial of one sort or another, denial of mortality is a big one for me. I think it was George on 'Seinfeld' who said 'my whole life is a lie!' ‘Delusion’ I guess means having incorrect beliefs but then by this measure who else is deluded – Christians, Muslims, Buddhists etc? Anyway the whole subject of belief is very interesting and part of this is the stages of the path from total BK immersion to XBKdom.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
Uddhava wrote:
The end of the world is a future event so by definition it could still happen. I guess at some point it would become difficult to keep saying that the apocalypse is just around the corner. I don’t know what that point is but I don’t think we have reached it yet.
Well, Christianity has been Brahma Kumari view for a bit longer. On the other hand, " Christianity " did not have SUV burning petrol at 8 mpg and George W. Bush to help Armageddon on its way until the last few years ... Do a Google for " Millenarianism ". Its a strange thing but the " End of the World " scenario has been with us for all time. This alone has made me come to think that some individuals, beings or entities are consciously aware of the power of its suggestion over humanity and exploit this power. Just to put a spin on a common bit of B.K. propaganda : if it is true that have 1,000,000 individuals visualising Peace brings about a better more peaceful world, what does having 100,000 persistent and repetitive meditators visualising a bloody destruction of all India and Nuclear holocaust in the West do? Is it one rule for the former and one for the latter? Again, I have no idea, I just ask questions.
Uddhava wrote:
‘Denial’ suggests repression of doubt so of course this is not healthy and cases of 'psychological meltdown' have been mentioned on this forum. But I think there are many BK's who are genuinely happy and have no doubts to repress, because doubts do not occur to them. In other words I don't think that all BK's are necessarily in denial, but even if a BK is in denial we have to then compare this to other forms of denial, rather than no denial. I would say that most of the world live in delusion and denial of one sort or another, denial of mortality is a big one for me. I think it was George on 'Seinfeld' who said 'my whole life is a lie!'
Yup, there are lots of consciously dumb B.K.s [ Western escapees ] and sadly more than a few deliberately under-educated women. I am think of the Indian sisters, here, for whom Brahma Kumarism must be quite a grateful escape for being made into a housecleaner / cook / baby machine tied for life to a few hundred yards around their home. By reflection, being a B.K. must be quite glamorous and exciting. Not a factor to be overlooked in anyone's ovcerall assessment of the attraction of B.K.-ism. Join the B.K.s, escape arranged marriage and in-laws, travel the world, climb the caste system and meeting interesting foreigners - all in a clean, loving, unthreatening environment. I'd llike to finish this post with one important thought : In my opinion, it is not the component knowledge that is the problem. In many ways, whether the components of their " Truth " are right or wrong is a side issue, a distraction, a camoflague. We cannot really " know " one way or other until it is too late or over which leaves us merely with sophistry.
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Sophistry [n] : a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone [syn: sophism, sophistication]. derogatory : Idyll philosophical discussion of the same.
The problem, the main issue, is the practise. What is actually going on in the group and individual yogic practise? Especially during the " honeymoon period " when much psychic attention is heaped upon the new so call Brahmin, essentially addicting it the form. For sure - despite anyone's frustrated efforts whilst their were in Gyan - something is going on during that. Some sort of initiation, transmission, some sort of binding, some sort of opening up of deep within one's being and entering into is going on, psychic influence; by whom or what and for why are the questions I am asking myself. Again, I don't know. It might be benign, it might not. But it sure is, a) largely beyond our comprehension and, b) as illustrated above not what we are being told. As I wrote elsewhere, may be it is part of the make up of " human monkeys " that they have to be tricked, cajoled and frightened into improve themselves - and may be that is the decision out " superiors " have willingly made. It would be equally interesting if they actually do turn out to be " spiritual superiors " and this was their method. If it is not, the B.K.-ists are in trouble!
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: mysticism and misogynism |
zhukov wrote:
jim brady wrote:
16. The whole philosophy of karma is not explained. Just a brief reference to reaping what you sow, but again no detail. Do rapists become victims of rape in a future life?
This is exactly what I was told by a BK sister. Word for word, in fact. Any victim of rape was invariably a rapist in "a former incarnation" This tidbit of information did untold torment to my head at the time, and I had no one to confirm its accuracy Another variation of old "they brought it all on themselves" guilt trip as far as I can see. Hey, even unconsciously. Now that's clever!
Hi. I hope that B.K. ends up forced into child prostitution in their next life for such callousness. One of my biggest bugbears with not just the way Brahma Kumaris teach Karma but Hinduism and many Buddhist teachers as well, they seem to be either so full of themselves and their wonderful new discovery, or either just so stupid and slavish that no one seems to progress the thought in a way I could remotely call scientifically. OK, so if we accept the hypothesis which I generally accept, but for which few or no Gurus I know of has ever given a comprehensive " mechanism " ; that as you sow, so shall ye reap. Does that preclude the potential for individuals to perform *new* bad karmas - or indeed *new* good karmas? And is not the emphasis of most but not all schools to encourage *new* good karmas? If one was only even " reaping " then surely existence would run out? And if there is space and time to perform " new bad karmas ", would that not mean new negative actions or crimes against innocent individuals? To spell it out, that some of the victims of such vicious crimes are actually innocent and were actually wrongfully and criminally assaulted. Now, which one of you, or any Brahma Kumari that you know, is actually wise and clairvoyant enough to tell us which one was reaping old bad karma and which victim was being wrongfully and criminally violated? All they do is parrot what they think they have heard and what they have heard is not a factual answer but merely a simple kiddies level arithmetic " method " for shutting up pointless thoughts in the individual that is asking them. it is that roundabout of predestination versus personal will all over again. The slavish and infantile adoption of " Karma " would bind you to predestination only. Personal will would lead you to new creations good or bad. "Why did they die? why was I hurt? Why was it stolen? etc " a) who can tell? b) what benefit would it bring to know? c) is it good to encourage the mind to ask and be gratified over such questioning? So the Guru answer is; " hmmn .... Karma ... now shut up and meditate ". I would love to take the opportunity to whack straight in the face any little tinpot guru or sweet B.K. that was preaching karma in such a way and say, " OK, that is us quits then ". And see what they do after ... Your choice of herbal tea at my expense if any of the rest of try this before me! Get a grip. Do we not realise that the so called knowledge we were stuffed with, and that which is the currency of so much of Gurudom, is baby talk? And the so called wonderous, holy and noble Hinduism that brought us to us is the same Hinduism that believes in little blue baby Gods in beds of snakes transplanting the heads of men with donkeys just to prove the soul is in the heart not head, women going to the funeral pyre with their husbands, literal faiths in Elephant gods, all sort of lusty and dishonest demi-gods incarnating amongst humanity to trick it [ which may be a clue ], monkey armies and even literal human sacrifice. That is to say an unlimited, nigh psychedelic amoral mindset that is just about capable in believing anything at anytime even if it is entirely contradictory to something else it also believes at the same time, which is almost entirely unschooled and one in which the status and treatment of daughters and women is and has been institutionally and misogynistically execrable for thousands of years. One which merely overwhelms any individual trying to grasp its extent ... that is not the same as truth! So no; child abuse and rape the like is very serious not nice stuff and not to be discussed, less dismissed lightly. Just stop and think any women that had been violently raped or individual that had suffered child abuse feels when they read what they write. In the West we have been very luck to be served, and consider, " the jewels " of Indian philosophy in beautiful exotic settings. In truth they have been picked out of open sewers of ignorance. I am not say the West is right and India wrong, I am just saying that just because you were once given a beautiful little gem stone, dont go diving indiscriminately into open sewers with your mouth open.
double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden |
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:01 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
Quote:
What is actually going on in the group and individual yogic practise? Especially during the " honeymoon period " when much psychic attention is heaped upon the new so call Brahmin, essentially addicting it the form. For sure - despite anyone's frustrated efforts whilst their were in Gyan - something is going on during that. Some sort of initiation, transmission, some sort of binding, some sort of opening up of deep within one's being and entering into is going on, psychic influence; by whom or what and for why are the questions I am asking myself.
I had never thought about this period of the brahmin life in those therms... In the other hand what happened to me was that I had a strong relationship with God before I found the BK's. I had had experiences and my own realizations. Many of them were very similar to what BK knowledge was teaching, so the intoxication when I found the BK was huge... In the other hand as soon as all the rules were coming (the small silly rules that come all the time) it started to grow guilt feelings (for not being able to live up to all the small rules) and I started to grow apart from God more and more... In the end I actually think it was only the guilt left and that together with the fact that there is so much that just doesn't match inside of that organization just gave me more and more alienation... But I think your question is quite interesting. You mean that besides all BK humans some other entities (not God) would be behind the organization manipulating whoever comes there? Somehow it makes sense for me and it sure explains lots of things that happened in the individual and group level... _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:38 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
To spell it out, that some of the victims of such vicious crimes are actually innocent and were actually wrongfully and criminally assaulted. Now, which one of you, or any Brahma Kumari that you know, is actually wise and clairvoyant enough to tell us which one was reaping old bad karma and which victim was being wrongfully and criminally violated? All they do is parrot what they think they have heard and what they have heard is not a factual answer but merely a simple kiddies level arithmetic " method " for shutting up pointless thoughts in the individual that is asking them. it is that roundabout of predestination versus personal will all over again. The slavish and infantile adoption of " Karma " would bind you to predestination only. Personal will would lead you to new creations good or bad.
Excellent points ex-london. Something else while we're on the "karma bandwagon" lol - not only are those victims of such crimes innocent, this "theory" really lets the perpetrators off the hook as regards responsibility for their actions, doesn't it, if its ultimately all the victims fault??
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