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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:59 am Post subject: source of love |
Hi Kevin, Meditation is still important to me for the process of change .... You asked me to prove this. I am not sure how I can prove it because it is only my experience but I can have a go at explaining it. If I think of my mind like an 'etch a sketch' or a tray of sand, and I want to draw a new picture, I need to start with a clean slate or smooth sand. If I don't then the previous images will keep interfering with the new one. Meditation provides the clean slate on my mind. If I have the habit of stilling my mind on a regular basis, I can easily set the scene for creativity in my thoughts.........a personal and natural creativity that emerges without effort, when all the other noise has stopped. love wahl
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: source of love |
Hi Kikas, Can I just ask you, what do you think happens after living happily ever after. Sorry, I don't understand the question? love wahl
Kikas Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21 |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:15 am Post subject: |
Hi Wahl, It is a simple question. You say that you think that the meaning for life is hapiness. So once you have that goal achieved what do you think will happen next, or you have never thought about it before?
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
kevin and babbit have put it perfectly. the murli is full of controlling crap. as for the dalai lama, he is a spiritual moron. this is my opinion.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: source of love |
Hi Kikas,
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It is a simple question. You say that you think that the meaning for life is hapiness. So once you have that goal achieved what do you think will happen next, or you have never thought about it before?
When is 'next'? Nothing stays the same. When we are creating happiness then we are destroying sorrow at the same time, and vice versa. There is no beginning and there is no end, happiness, sorrow, happiness, sorrow, happiness, sorrow, it goes up and down and it goes on and on and on and on and on and on........for ever and ever......we can't get off. Love wahl
Kikas Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21 |
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
Hope one day you find the way out and that there is a way out ... until then, lots of love and inner wisdom for you.
Guest |
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
wahl, proof should be very simple. Lots of people practice meditation, so lots of people should show inner transformation as you say. Nonetheless, this is not the case. Indeed, it brings peace in your mind, but that's not fundamental enough. Only understanding can bring real transformation. Kika's argument in relation to hapinness is very simple. When one has attained pure hapinness (if that's possible), what is there left to do? We, humans, are always moving forward (or backward ) because we are driven by our own incompletness. Hobbes made the comparison with a perpetuum motion machine. So again, how do you see a day or a life, let alone a full age of pure hapinness? Would this work out?? Would we even realise that we are happy at all ... and if not, can we still say that there is something as "hapinness" at all. I think there is nothing wrong with feeling unhappy at certain periods. It teaches you a lot, it is a part of oneself. Bk philsophy and murli talk always fail. They are not realistic.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: source of love |
Hi Kevin, .
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Bk philsophy and murli talk always fail. They are not realistic.
My frame of reference is not BK, by the way. I left shrimat behind ages ago and have no regrets whatsoever.............."I can see clearly now...." (well, clearer at least). I know all about the Bk organisation, it's heirarchy, psychological control and agendas. That is why I left. However, the practice of meditation and the philosophies of karma, entropy, spiritual energy, yoga, reincarnation etc., are not to be rendered invalid just because the BK's advocate them. That would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The only thing that I can't explain, but is nevertheless real, is my attraction to the murli. I feel something good in there and it captivates me. Don't quite understand it myself, but it is definitely real to me? That's just how I honestly feel and I would be lying if I said otherwise. Anyway, I still really like the idea of being happy Kevin and too much talk about BK this and Bk that can't be helpful for that can it?
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Only understanding can bring real transformation.
I think you're dead right about this but I think that understanding is just the beginning. The fundamental is experience. Meditation............ The intellect understands and then directs the mind to to visualise it (say, for instance, peace), and then it becomes an experience. If we experience something often enough it eventually becomes who we are........our personality. Tansformation is taking place.
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We, humans, are always moving forward (or backward ) because we are driven by our own incompletness.
Aboslutely agree with this.........this is the on and on and on and on that I am talking about. Happiness perpetuates sorrow and sorrow perpetuates happiness. It is always fleeting and there is no point of attainment, at least not for long, because that is the point at which the pendulum changes direction. So, yes, we are always moving in one direction or another. Lots of love, Wahl
Guest |
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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However, the practice of meditation and the philosophies of karma, entropy, spiritual energy, yoga, reincarnation etc., are not to be rendered invalid just because the BK's advocate them. That would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I do not say I render them invalid. I often experience "instant karma" as they call it. The thing is: how much of an understanding is there really? It's all so superficial and simplistic ... almost worthless. What is 'spiritual energy'? Is there even such a thing? Why would you be busy with reincarnation? We are so limited in our humans ways. My feelings and experiences say I have had many lives, but can I trust my feeling about this? I think it is just the art of life to be satified with what today brings, regardless how it came to be. There is in my experience nothing more difficult than to capture "the moment" in all its simplicity and letting go all philosophical beliefs.
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My frame of reference is not BK, by the way. I left shrimat behind ages ago and have no regrets
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The only thing that I can't explain, but is nevertheless real, is my attraction to the murli. I feel something good in there and it captivates me. Don't quite understand it myself, but it is definitely real to me? That's just how I honestly feel and I would be lying if I said otherwise.
Okay, I have said this already in the past: we can't really talk about "bk" in general ... too many different people with different aims and kinds of interpretations in that group. For me you are a true bk if you are attracted to murli and are still captured in its melody. I know exactly the feeling you describe. I'll tell you honestly, I don't think it is any good. There is something about it that makes your intellect dull without even realising so. The "magic" of the murli is real, but I'm convinced it is not positive. When I read a murli now, I break the magic spell so to speak (which takes effort), and it is a totally different speech appearing. Which one is the real one? I think we all agree that we find our own experience is the correct one Isn't it great to observe how limited we all are?
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Only understanding can bring real transformation. I think you're dead right about this but I think that understanding is just the beginning. The fundamental is experience.
Why would it only be the beginning? Can there be any positive experience when there is misunderstanding instead of understanding?
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The intellect understands and then directs the mind to to visualise it (say, for instance, peace), and then it becomes an experience. If we experience something often enough it eventually becomes who we are........our personality. Transformation is taking place.
You are just describing the process of conditioning your mind ... what makes you so sure that transformation is taking place? That is my point in fact: look at people who have been doing this for decades: I can still see in their eyes that they haven't changed scratch. One great example is dadi janki. I say true benefit is understanding who you are. It's a cliché but it's still true. And is there a point in transforming you "darker" side ... it's a part of you, IT IS YOU. Forcing it to go away causes great harm to yourSELF. Look at most bk's and pbk's, they need serious pscychological help. Furthermore, why is it that so many bk's have psychological problems to begin with? I have witnessed this everywhere. That surely tells something about the "qualities" of murli.
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Aboslutely agree with this.........this is the on and on and on and on that I am talking about. Happiness perpetuates sorrow and sorrow perpetuates happiness.
I don't think you agree. This is an ongoing process ad infinitum. There can't be one "age" where one of the two is missing or sleeping -- it would take away meaning, tonality and colour. You can't be happy if you haven't been unhappy -- the simple cyclic model of the murli is fundamentally wrong. It is childish. It is however a great symbolic feature that can be deduced from nature itself. It would be wrong to give it a historical value. I like the cycle idea, always have, but isn't it more important to have a philosophy of life that actually brings benefit each and every day? We all go through cycles each and every day, even physically as we are revolving around the sun. It is again a great art to make out every day a special one, even after having gone thousands of time through the same pattern.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: source of love |
Thanks Kevin, You have made so many points, don't know where to start with a reply! It's good to get food for thought. Spiritual energy.........yes I do think there is such a thing. The proof of the existence of any type of energy, is it's ability to cause something to happen. That is obvious in the physical world. In spiritual terms, I would say that thoughts are the carriers for spiritual energy............in it's most basic form that energy would be identified as emotion, negative or positive. The more subtle the spiritual energy the more powerful it is. Love is spiritual energy as is hatred. Love/hatred/jealousy/joy..........take any one of these, you can't see it, hear it, smell it etc.,..........but you can feel it. someone can smile or scowl at you, causing you to laugh or cry, be jealous, be compassionate........energy has been transferred from one soul to another.
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I think it is just the art of life to be satified with what today brings, regardless how it came to be. There is in my experience nothing more difficult than to capture "the moment" in all its simplicity and letting go all philosophical beliefs.
I love what you are saying here.........yes. Freedom. The murli and it's 'captivation'........I have some thoughts/ideas going on with this subject and will probably come back to you at some later date.............need time to think.
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Why would it only be the beginning? Can there be any positive experience when there is misunderstanding instead of understanding?
Point taken, but, conditioning of the mind...........yes it is, that's the whole point. I am not saying that there should be any force, just the choice to gentle redirect it. If I sit in front of the telly every night, I think that would be allowing my brain to be washed and I choose not to do that!
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I don't think you agree. This is an ongoing process ad infinitum. There can't be one "age" where one of the two is missing or sleeping -- it would take away meaning, tonality and colour. You can't be happy if you haven't been unhappy
How on earth is that disagreeing? love wahl
Guest |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
The problem is that energy is a very difficult concept from the exact sciences which requires a lot of mathemetical background in order to grasp it. Who are we to use this off-hand and give it a "spiritual" meaning like it's all that simple? It's basically just name dropping. Equally, to compare the law of gravity with the law of karma is absurd. Even as an analogy.
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The proof of the existence of any type of energy, is it's ability to cause something to happen.
A force has also the ability to make something happen, yet a force is not the same as energy and is well-defined within physics. For the simple form of the gravitational law F = m.g That's why I caution for such "models" -
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someone can smile or scowl at you, causing you to laugh or cry, be jealous, be compassionate........energy has been transferred from one soul to another.
It is true that we affect each other in many ways, but how does this work? I won't buy superficial "spirtual" mambo jambo models based on borrowed terms used in a way which makes clear that there's little understanding behind them.
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yes it is, that's the whole point. I am not saying that there should be any force, just the choice to gentle redirect it. If I sit in front of the telly every night, I think that would be allowing my brain to be washed and I choose not to do that!
I think you are mixing things here. There is a big difference between making choices WITHIN your capabilities (i.e. your potential) and TRYING to impose choises on yourself which are OUTSIDE your capabilities. This is where I see that practically everything in the murli philosophy is flawed. I don't consider my with-drawle from it as a defeat -- the defeat is inherent in the system itself which is in conflict with our true potential. If my potential is a circle, then bk's try to be a square. I don't believe we are different in this aspect --and no bk whom I've met has proved my otherwise -- and we are all circles so to speak.
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How on earth is that disagreeing?
I am talking about a condition, you are talking about an evolution (throughout ages). You should consider the logic behind this condition which is basically the same as the yin-yang philosophy. If you step out of this logical frame, then you'll need to provide a different one. But let us not be tempted by a black-white vision on life, because as we all should know, most truths are in the grey area. In science they talk about probabilities - the Booleaan logic has almost disappeared. Our world is in a state of fuziness and so do we operate. Yin-yang, the cycle, etc are stong symbols but they are a simplication of the reality. There must surely be an assymetry in our Self ... I'll need to do more reading on this though.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
No no no!. I don't think this is absurd at all and I defend this vigorously. The term 'spiritual' has a lot to answer for! I think that the law of karma governs absolutely everything. Science doesn't properly acknowledge the difference between the mind and the brain and so 'thoughts' are not yet considered as energy, but if they were, then there would definitely be a formula or equation applied. Only the electrical signal that the thought is responsible for is acknowledged scientifically. 'Matter' and 'thought' are on extreme ends of the spectrum of vibrations, ie they are both forms of energy, and the difference between them is just a matter of frequency or refinement or density. The law of karma works on all levels, physically and mentally, effecting every level of vibration, (even the ones that we are unaware of). In terms of music, for example,................Mozart has an abstract 'idea' for a symphony. At this point there is nothing physical about the smphony. He converts the idea into thoughts about how to get it on to paper, he writes it down, the orchestra learns the notes(non-physical) and plays it to an audience, the audience hears it (physically), loves it (non-physical or even spiritual if I can dare to use the word!) and they applaud. This is the chain of events and, as I said before, the energy has been transferred. The 'engraving' of the synapses on the brain of Mozart and his audience are physical but they have all been created by and originated from Mozart's non-physical abstract thought. The physical and non-physical (spiritual) are intertwined and can't be separated. Everything is connected to everything else, physically and mentally/spiritually/non-physical. No thing exists alone.
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I won't buy superficial "spirtual" mambo jambo models based on borrowed terms used in a way which makes clear that there's little understanding behind them.
Please enlighten me about my lack of understanding?
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I am talking about a condition, you are talking about an evolution (throughout ages).
No I'm not. Time or place, history or geography don't come into it. 'Space' is a more apt word for it because it is less limiting ..........ie, 'space in your mind'. I was probably simplifying things a bit by saying "happiness, sorrow, happiness, sorrow" and you took me literally. There are always degrees and, as you say, grey areas. There has to be a seed of sorrow in a state of happiness and vice versa otherwise there would be no change..........inertia (and that is not the case). So, Karma rules. I really do agree with what you are saying but I think you are subconsciously thinking of me as defending the BK philosophy. Please read my postings again and imagine that neither one of us have ever heard of the BKs.
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I think you are mixing things here. There is a big difference between making choices WITHIN your capabilities (i.e. your potential) and TRYING to impose choises on yourself which are OUTSIDE your capabilities.
You are probably right about not knowing the boundaries of our capabilities and I do agree, that within the BK environment, we allow ourselves to have choices imposed upon us. Not healthy at all but, in the end, you get out or go mad.
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There must surely be an assymetry in our Self
If there was such a thing as a universal camera that could take a complete and all encompassing picture of the universe, at one very specific point in time, then it would still be impossible to work out the next move (of everyone and everything in the entire universe) because it can only be a probability. Maybe if God was taking the picture, He might be certain of the outcome? love wahl
Guest |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: |
I would like you to give me your definition of energy: what is energy for you and based on what.
Guest |
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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There has to be a seed of sorrow in a state of happiness and vice versa otherwise there would be no change..........inertia
I'm sorry, what does inertia have to do with this? As far as I know it is one of the laws of motion that states that a body in motion will have the tendency to remain in motion unless it is stopped by something (friction etc.)
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: source of love |
I am talking in much broader terms than physics. By 'thing' I mean everything that can exist, physical or non physical. You name it, it is a 'thing'..........e.g., an atomic particle.........an ice cream (lots of atomic particles)..........a song (a conglomeration of lots of energies is responsible here, see 'Mozart' reference)............a feeling of outrage............etc etc etc.......all things. Energy is any force that has the ability to move and change something. Without energy nothing can 'happen' at all. Energy pervades everything. Every 'thing' has the ability to be changed or moved by some other 'thing'. Is there anything at all in the entire universe that is totally independent and therefore not subject to change? Inertia is the opposite of the above. There is no 'thing' that is inert because, if it has the ability not to be effected by some other 'thing', than it must have a stronger force to resist the other 'thing' and that resistance then has to be recognised as energy and therefore not inert! Energy is everywhere constantly moving and changing. love wahl love wahl
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