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Life outside the Body
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John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:28 am Post subject: Life outside the Body |
I have a BK book called 'Eternal drama of souls, matter and GOD'. Written by BK Jagdish Chander. In it is a quote from God Shiva and part of that quote reads. "The soul can move and act without a body as a bird can fly out of a nest or a cage, or a man can walk out of a house, or even as a driver can move out of a vehicle" Has anybody any experience of this or been told of any? Does a soul need a body to still have consciousness? John
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
Actually, the minute the soul leaves a corporeal body upon death, it immediately enters a foetus so as to take another birth. However, during the split second when it leaves to enter a foetus, the soul can have experiences which it might remember when/if it re-enters the same corporeal body (if it is finalised that there is no death for that moment). Otherwise, a soul cannot leave a corporeal body. When we have out-of-the-body experiences, the soul does not leave the corporeal body. Only some of the energies of the soul leaves to have the experience. Our intellect is able to go out of the corporeal body to get information etc which we seek but the soul does not completely leave the corporeal body during that time. Even such experiences are gained during a spilt second. At subtle level, no time is experienced. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
So what is the meaning of the above quote? Where have you got your ideas from. John
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
John quoted
Quote:
:"The soul can move and act without a body as a bird can fly out of a nest or a cage, or a man can walk out of a house, or even as a driver can move out of a vehicle"
I'm not an expert or much experienced in this but it seems to be a reference to what is commonly called "astral travelling." BK knowledge does not go into esoteric details of the capabilities of the human soul but there is a vast resource of knowledge on these matters elsewhere such as in mystical societies. BK knowledge, like the "Christian path of Bhakti" written in the four Gospels, concentrates on Faith as the basis for spiritual accomplishments. In contrast to this, it is well known that the major religions each have an esoteric level of expression. In Christianity, it is the mystical schools of thought like the Rosicrucians and Freemasons who also draw on Jewish and Eastern schools of thought for their knowledge; in Islam it is the Sufis; in Hinduism it includes Kundalini Yoga etc. The main point in all this is that as humans we seem to have tremendous possibilities and we seem to be subject to a progressive evolution into higher beings with unimagined potentials. RY alludes to this by making the image of Laxhmi/Narayan your "aim and object" and the method of attainment summarized in the advice "Man Mana Bhav." In Christianity, the Christ Jesus advised "seek ye first the kingdom of God and all else will be added unto it." The kingdom in this case seems to be the kingdom within which refers to development of man from ordinary to deity status - which is the goal of various mystical paths also. Jesus seemed to allude to his attaining this God-like status when he declared "if you see me you see the Father, for I and the Father are One" i.e. in perfect "yoga" or equivalent to a fully accomplished state of "Man Mana Bhav." In Gnostic Christianity, that kind of accomplishment is considered the result of years of effort on the part of Jesus, during which time he studied and practised various mystical arts in ancient cultures until he became the Christ, the perfect expression of God's Love incarnate. It is that kind of power that is said to have enabled him to materialise and dematerialize on several occasions during his ministry. So, to sum it up, it would seem that the soul is capable of the feats described by Shiv Baba. What Bkry was referring to was the technique of "extending or projecting the consciousness outside the body" much like an elastic band can be stretched and returned to its original position. If the band is severed then "death" occurs and there is usually no return; otherwise it can retract or be retracted and return to life within the body. But BKs do not go into these details, although they might allude to "visiting" students and places astrally ..... Hope this helps you John. Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
celticgyan Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 43 Location: New Zealand |
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
Just a comment about Jesus. I was always taught that it takes two Souls to start a religion and it was the Christ Soul that was born in the forehead of Jesus (there then being two Souls at the one time) that gave him enlightenment. Jesus probably took this Soul to be that of God since it was so pure and new - straight from the Soul world. This also gave him protection - he could walk through the angry crowds and nobody could touch him. When Christs mission is finished the Chirst Soul leaves the body of Jesus and takes re-birth leaving Jesus the man and his Soul unprotected -he can then be crucified. The Chirst Soul must stay with the religion he founded until the end of the cycle (when he makes his comeback - in a body of course - he may be a Pope or some senior religious leader throughout the whole period). The Sould of Jesus the man also takes rebirth but he will become a Brahmin (not sure about the last bit though). There were quite a few Jesus conscience BKs as I remember who though they were the same Soul. I have experienced so-called Astral Travel during lucid dreaming and its rather nice. I remember floating above my body trying to get back in and zooming off somewhere. Also meeting some interesting Souls including what appeared to be extra-terrestials. No point in me telling the BKs that though as it doesn't fit in!! Om Shanti
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
bkry wrote:
Actually, the minute the soul leaves a corporeal body upon death, it immediately enters a foetus so as to take another birth. However, during the split second when it leaves to enter a foetus, the soul can have experiences which it might remember when/if it re-enters the same corporeal body (if it is finalised that there is no death for that moment). Otherwise, a soul cannot leave a corporeal body.
And what of the wealth of stories, beliefs, doctrines from all over the world - and, dare I say, anecdotal experiences - that relate to other spiritual realms, dimensions, spiritualism, ghosts even. Where do they fit in? [ Other than to be mere dismissed in one word as " Bhakti " ? ] What are your sources? How can you " know " so surely ? I don't know. From a quasi-scientific point of view there are so many anomalies to your theory or " rule " - in truth just another belief that questions arise. How can we know this? I don't even remember it as a specifically B.K. point of view. Secondly, we have the problem of space, time and relativity. In the human condition we are bound by space, time and matter. Outside of the human condition we may not be. So who is to say " how much time they spend ", what space they travel or " where " they are. It is not a possibility. And what of ghosts and spiritualism? Are those spirit souls still attached to some body somewhere? As I say I don't know anything except that easy answers don't fit well and all we can do at best is guess rather than support beliefs as if they were football teams.
celticgyan Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 43 Location: New Zealand |
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: |
About Ghosts. The BK explanation I was given was that some souls had Karma that was so bad that they could not be re-born into the womb. They therefore floated around looking for a host until they coudl take re-birth after they retirn to the soul-world (eventually). Some of these souls take birth (by invitation - Karma again) in the foreheads of others - so-called possession. I heard that near the end of the cycle some peopel will have many such souls besides their own. They have the right to be there since they are invited and are Karmically linked in some way. I even heard that BKS have special meditations to get of such souls but this is un-confirmed. Om Shanti
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:36 am Post subject: |
Quote:
all we can do at best is guess rather than support beliefs as if they were football teams.
haha beautifully put.
Quote:
I even heard that BKS have special meditations to get of such souls but this is un-confirmed.
In Brahma Babas Biography it is put that he meditated to get rid of ghosts at My Abu, when they first arrived.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
I don't know much about ghosts entering the corporeal bodies of others. But I know that attachment, unsatisfied desires etc can make a soul remain around in the subtle form instead of immediately entering another corporeal foetus. I am not sure as to how the soul is able to do this, especially since it does not have a corporeal body anymore. Maybe, it is still living the life which has just ended. Thus, it has not packed up the old life (role/part in the drama) to move into the next new role/part in the drama. Anyway, in the 1980s, when I was not in gyan yet, I had tried to have an out-of-the-body experience. I had gone within (become introverted) and then I had kept telling myself to subtly move out the corporeal body and then to subtly move around the house and to observe what everyone was doing in the house (which I stayed in). Since I was experiencing fear, I did not subtle move out of the corporeal body at that point of time. I was afraid because, sometimes, if we indulge in these kind of out-of-the-body experiences, we might lose control and then we might find ourselves out of the corporeal body even though we did not instruct ourselves to leave the corporeal body. Even though I did not leave the corporeal body to subtly move around at that point of time, I had done it later. Later, as I was waking up from sleep, instead of waking up, I subtly came out of the corporeal body and I subtly moved around in the house which I was staying in and I had observed everything that everyone was doing and I had then gone back into the corporeal body. I was walking through doors when I was moving around subtly. I had a subtle body which looked just like the corporeal body which I was in then. I had done what I had instructed myself to do (as I had earlier on). Only this experience did not take place as soon as I had given the instructions. It had happened later and so I got very frightened and repeatedly told myself not to do it again. This instruction not to do it again was also followed. After I had got up from the bed (through using my corporeal body), I had walked out of the room to see if the people in the house were doing what I had subtly seen them doing and they were doing exactly what I had subtly seen them doing. I began to wonder if they had seen my subtle form and so I asked them if they had seen me earlier on. They were puzzled and asked me if I had been dreaming because they did not see me earlier on. I laughed and said that maybe I was dreaming. However, in my heart, I knew that I did have an out-of-the-body experience earlier on. Actually, when we give instructions to ourselves (while in an introverted state), we are instructing our "mind, intellect and memory bank" to carry out this task of astral travelling and recalling of facts. Non-BKs would say that we are instructing our sub-conscious mind to carry out the task. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
bkry wrote:
Actually, the minute the soul leaves a corporeal body upon death, it immediately enters a foetus so as to take another birth..
not so IMHO, having read many descriptions of near death experiences, following one I had, there is a remarkable consistency in the experiences described., from many different people from all over the world, from different books and authors. Not one backs your statement up: this is a standard BK statement I have heard many times and, as with many others, it does not ring true. Souls can remain in the subtle world, often long term. What about the soul of Brahma Baba? Did it 'immediately re-enter another foetus?'. And what about all BapDada's descriptions of BK souls who have left the body, eg Jagdish, who Baba said specifically in an avyakt murli at the time, was not being reborn in another body, but would remain in the subtle region to perform special tasks there? IS there one rule for 'special' BKs and a different rule for every other human soul? It is not helpful to simply repeat 'party lines', as if they are known fact. This type of attitude is widespread in the Brahma Kumaris (and I dare say in most other cult religions) and it was certainly instrumental in pushing me (and many others I believe) out of the door...
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
... this is a standard BK statement I have heard many times and, as with many others, it does not ring true. Souls can remain in the subtle world, often long term
And given that you mean " The Subtle World " [tm] as talk by the B.K. as one of " The Three Worlds " [tm] and three worlds only, is it possible that the simplification of there being only three worlds is also not right? The B.K. also teach that " The Subtle World " [tm] only exits at the Confluence and folks have been dying and going out of the body for a lot longer than just the last 60 - 70 years. So the two don't entirely add and up we need new theory or fact.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: |
Quote:
" The Subtle World " [tm] as talk by the B.K. as one of " The Three Worlds " [tm]
I have not seen this before, what does [tm] mean here? with Love wahl
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: |
Quote:
Actually, the minute the soul leaves a corporeal body upon death, it immediately enters a foetus so as to take another birth..
The above quote is a only a general rule but there are a lot of exceptions to this general rule. This is how I understand it. It is my view that most souls leave to take another birth but then some (or many) don't do that immediately. Thus, one has a lot of other experiences which can vary from soul to soul. In the subtle region, I have seen a soul leving one body to enter another body immediately and this experience strengthens my believe in the general rule. Anyway, spiritual life is a learning process. Today, I may accept this general rule but later, I might change it according to my spiritual experiences etc. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
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