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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:12 am Post subject: Response to "the bottom line" |
My response in that thread was deleted, but the admin suggested to open it as a topic here. I don't remember my reply exactly and it's lost unfortenately. I wanted to reply in that topic because imo, things got a bit twisted there. Firstly you have to understand the deepness of faith in all aspects of life. Secondly, hanuman was not threated correctly. He is asked to show what his proof is for having faith in murli's, shiva, the whole thing. As he has shown, he is not just someone and certainly not the typical bk. So, I understand the need/curiosity to ask him: why, why why? May I ask in response: How do you know that you are for real? That your life is real? It's already a fact that your brain simulates the world around you. You don't know how it "really" looks, if there is really anything around you (cf. matrix ) You need faith for this. As your are part of the system, according to Gödel's incompleteness theorem, you can't know everything of that particular system. Some things, you just take for "real" or "true". But, there is for example the possibility that you are not living the kind of realness you think you are. You could be living a dream, an illusion or being part of something you don't know. Somebody might be manipulating your actions, etc. .... nobody can't live a meaningful live with such attitude, yet the acknowledgment of that possibility won't do you harm. So we get to the point: what proof would possibly be good enough to proof that SB is really god? If you could choose, you can give it here. But, be sure that I can disproof it as being any final proof. The incompleteness theorem is ever present and stands as final proof to object anything that tries to represent something as final truth or proof - there is no summum that you can explore. The bottom line is that everyone has faith in fundamental things. You can't expect people to rationalise this, nor asking the fundament of that faith. It's an inner feeling that says: Yes, it's right. That's it!
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: The Bottom Line |
Kevin, That's great. The idea you are proposing and the question you ask. Believe it or leave it, even in science there has to be faith. The scientist has to have faith in his/her hyoptheses and the hypotheses of others. The faith in science is based on objective aspects of the Scientific Method and the subjective aspects of human thinking and being. Each and every minute, according to cognitive neuroscientists such as Professor Richard Gergory, we are formulating and testing hypotheses as part of our perception. We see and we hear and we feel as specific abject. We formulate a hypothesis about the identity of the object. We did the same hypothesis testing when the idea of SB was introduced to us. Scientists did the same with the atom. Only now with high powered microscopes in the nanometer range of resolution can science show images of atoms and molecules. For the last fifty plus years we have been accepting atoms based on faith and the Scientific Method. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:21 pm Post subject: |
Om shanti! Bahais! faith and trust is important. We use it everyday from paying our electrical bill to driving on the street. Now of course this is a little bit different but faith not blind faith is important. How do we get this from experience and knowledge. Take Care,
administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48 |
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: Post by celticgyan |
celticgyan made this post in the exclusive "XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY" forum today, under "The bottom line" topic which was started by Paul. Since celticgyan has not been invited - and so does not have permission - to post in that exclusive forum, we have transferred his post to this forum Admin Now here is celticgyan's post: These are interesting questions that you pose. If only I could have had permission to ask these to the seniors! The reason I became so involved with the BKs is that when I first met them back in the 1970s in Kilburn London there was such a feeling of peace that I had never experienced before. I knew there had to be something special about the place and the organisation. I later found out that they had been channeling God! This was quite a lot to take in of course - especially as I was such a doubting person with a scientific technical background. No way could I accept the cycle - it did not make sense though for Souls (if there was such a thing) to have a cycle made some sense - we loose energy through our births and this needs to be re-charged - seemed quite simple to me and reinforced by the very fact that it appeared to work when you meditated. But was there really such a thing as a Soul or if there was, did Shiv-Baba exist or is he who he says he is? The reason I dod not think Shiv-Baba is God is simple - he (she) does not carry any scientific information of any sort, the messages are purely spiritual in nature. I remember the famous Physicist Richard Feynman had compiled a list of questions for such circumstances, simple questions but ones that surely a God would know. For instance I may want to ask what is the natural frequency of the hydrogen atom or whatever. Of course you cannot ask such questions of Shiv-Baba you will all say - but why not? Do you remember the Star-Trek film where Kirk and his crew have been hijacked and taken to a planet where God is supposed to exist? To Kirk's surprise, there is indeed a 'God' who dwells there and most of the crew accept him for what he claims to be. However Kirk begins to ask some questions and Bones proclaims "Jim,you don't ask God for his ID!" Or is Shiv-Baba holding back on us? So here is what I think. I believe Shiv-Baba is for real. Maybe the chariot he uses determines how much he can reveal ie the intellect and cultural background of the chariot. Maybe if Baba came through a Scientist other information would be revealed. I still remain to be convinced that he is the one 'God' however, though I do admit that his teachings are benevolent and that I would trust the BK organisation with my life, they are so genuine (although ia few individuals may not always be). I am not saying that Shiv-Baba is from 'outer-space' either, but consider what may happen if we were to go back in time thousands of years and try and help society with its troubles. The people would surely treat us like Gods if he had our technology and medicine (or witches!). So Shiv-Baba is a pan-galactic super-being for lack of a better term! My other point is 'does it really matter whether he is God'? The teachings are benelovent. I just wish it wasn't messed up with the cycle thing. If there was a cycle then surely God would clarify all the obvious stumbling blocks - dinausars, fossil evidence and do so in a way that would be scientifically acceptable. I do suspect though that if you drive a sports car that the performance of the driver is ultimately limited by how good the engine is. It can have beautiful seats but if the engine is poor you will never win. It is interesting that other sisters in the BK's used to channel Baba besides Dadi Gulzar. In the early years after Braham Babas departure, the practice used to be quite common - then only Dadi was allowed to do so. It would be interesting to look at the Murlis obtained from these other chariots. Om Shanti
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:20 pm Post subject: |
Hi celticgyan, welcome to this forum! You raise some interesting questions yourself. About the vibrations of the centre: there's an arcane science called thaumaturgy (I think) whereby the elements of a thing often used by someone become imbued with the imprint of their personality. It can happen to your room, for instance. If you meditate there daily and treat it as a sacred place it will begin to feel that way not only to yourself but to others who enter. It is a universal principle. You may experience it in churches and shrines. As you purify your thoughts your body will begin to emit the same kind of vibrations and people around you will feel this. It is said that the aura of Jesus was visible to many. No doubt the same may be said for the Buddha etc. The point is that it is a universal principle demonstrating the nature of thought power (to put it in the most simple and basic terms). The English novelist and poet D.H. Lawrence once expressed it in a short and beautiful poem which I recall as something like this:
Quote:
Things men have made with wakened hands and put soft life into are alive for many years with transferred touch and retain their glow. And for this reason some old things are lovely warm still with the lives of forgotten men who made them.
When we attend the centre (or church, mosque or synagogue for that matter) with the most sincere thoughts in our hearts we invest its atmosphere and elements with our Faith that it is God's house. Conversely, if we go to these places as a routine then we add nothing to those vibes but, rather, replace them with 'impure vibrations'. You might recall the stipulation about attending the centre at least 6 months before you are allowed to visit Madhuban. The BKs understand that principle. On the question of "God" being limited by the sanskars or abilities of his medium, I can't agree with that view. The whole authority of the knowledge rests on the faith that God Almighty Himself descends once every 5000 years for the express purpose of renewing the world. It is difficult to understand Him choosing to do this through an inadequate medium or His being unable to clarify knowledge of occurrences on the cycle, especially when questions of such deficiencies are like recurring decimals from his children. I don't think that if asked a question on the nature of the hydrogen atom God would necessarily answer in scientific jargon. Our understanding of the constitution of matter is essentially limited by the nature of our bodies and souls (our instruments of preception) while His is most likely beyond our imagination. [As I understand it, that is why the Christ soul used parables to explain the kingdom of heaven; we exist on different levels of consciousness.] Even within our earthly knowledge we seem to have different terminologies for what is apparently the same thing: I'm thinking here of the ancient concept of the akasha - the essential element pervading all space - and the modern concept of the universe as a hologram. Both concepts acknowledge the instantaneous interconnection of everything, especially through thought power. Indeed, a well known ancient term for the akasha is 'God's Book of Remembrance' because it is said to contain the inscriptions of every thought of every soul that has ever existed. A highly developed mystic can tell us amazing things by attuning to the akashic records - but does that make him or her God? To someone unfamiliar with such arcane sciences it would seem so - just like the analogy you used about travelling back in time. It is possible then, that SB or BB is an arcane phenomenon beyond our experience or present understanding (but possibly quite clearly understandable to a developed mystic). You seem to sense this in your post on the Ascended Masters to which I attempted a preliminary reply. Rest assured that the BK's "gyan" reflects some aspects of a vast corpus of arcane knowledge but - as far as I can see - by no means does it disclose all that is available to mankind. To argue (as is often done both within and without gyan) that we do not need to satisfy the inquiring nature of our evolving souls is to deny the inherent qualities that create the very technology by which we live and on which rests the materialization of Swarg. One other thing: you ask and comment
Quote:
... 'does it really matter whether he is God'? The teachings are benelovent
Actually, it does matter. Stamping something with the authority of God puts a full stop to all independent inquiry - and misplaced faith can create a long term damage to your psyche. From the inception we were told that there are two authorities: God and the Scriptures. A similar thing occurs in Christianity when one is asked to endorse the Chicago Doctrine of the Inerrancy of the Bible. By subscribing to a faith that the Bible is the Word of God one is effectively made a captive. A great poet once said "the mouth is muzzled by the food that it eats". Hence, you are required to 'churn the knowledge' but not question its veracity or its integrity. If you get indigestion then it was not made for you or a popular BK antidote for your doubt is 'the milk of the lioness can only be held in a golden chalice'. Well, perhaps it is better to regurgitate, feel better, and cook something more suitable for the growth of your constitution. God loves honesty. Welcome to our little 'kitchen' friend. Gyaniwasi PS. I made this reply before I noticed Admin's correction so I merely copied and pasted it here. Haven't read any other responses to it yet. Gy. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:29 am Post subject: Response To "The Bottom Line" |
To Celticgyan, Gyaniwasi and Papaya: Trust is necessary as stated by Papaya. However, we must remember that Science or Natural Philisophy is the creation of humankind and originated from mysticism or vitalism. In other words science originated from Silence. It is based on Logic developed by the Greeks and the Scientific Methoddeveloped by Sir Francis Bacon. Sir Issac Newton, Sir Robert Boyle, Sir Robert Hooke and even Hepatya in Egypt, all grand architects of Modern Science were first and foremost mystics and in the eyes of the lay public and clerics natural philosophers or scientists. Science is a language developed from Silence. The knowledge of the language of science is generated by hypothesis testing in a laboratory. Experimentation remains the method of testing hypothesis. If God, The Lord of Silence wishes to answer a question on a human created language such as science, He will. If, of course He feels it is important for Him to answer the question in the language, science, in which it was asked. Edgar Casey a great American mystic, did not have a PhD, DID NOT COMPLETE HIGH SCHOOL. He was only a medium and healer. Yet he in a trance state could answer highly technical questions which only a physician or scientist could answer. Where was the source of his knowledge? It was definetely not from his lokik schooling. He never had a tertiary education. Gyaniwasi your response represents a synthesis of many important mystical concepts which are universal. Your quotation from D H Lawrence etc, has been corrobated by cultural anthroplogists who use the term manna to describe the influence of thought power on physical objects. It is for that reason on a personal level, I do not allow anyone to write with some of my pens. There is much more to the writing of a person than the letters on paper. There are the impressions. I always reserve a few pens which I use exclusively. In fencing I usually fence with my own swords. My personal swords after many years of my personal use are imbued with my spiritual energy. That for any fencer can be documented by Kerlian photography. I once dated an expert on hand writing analysis. In her analysis of a love letter I wrote her, she concluded that my hand writing indicated that there was some degree of violence in my personality. I informed her that I was a martial artist and that the warrior sanskars were the source of what she detected in my hand writing. The relationship did not last long and I was happy it ended on good terms! _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject: |
Ahhhhhhh.....Hanumanbhai : Trust is indeed the crux of the matter. One day you might decide to consider its significance and power as thoroughly discussed in a work like The Guru Papers by Kramer & Alstad. Gy. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:32 am Post subject: |
Dear brothers and sisters, Omshanti. I have gone through the discussion on the above mentioned subject which seems to be very interesting. I would like to briefly give my views on various points raised by various members. As regards the knowledge given by SB through the corporeal chariots being limited to the knowledge of the corporeal chariot, I wish to say that based on my knowledge of murlis and Avyakta vanis and the experience of listening to the knowledge given by SB through a corporeal medium, which the BKs do not accept, I can say that although SB can and does give extraordinary knowledge, but he humbly limits himself to a certain extent to the knowledge of the corporeal chariot. But that has not restricted him from giving a lot of new knowledge which was not mentioned in the scriptures or which is an advanced knowledge than the scriptures. He says in the murlis that the knowledge will keep refining and changing till the end. Although that changing and refining has not taken place through the knowledge being narrated by the soul of BB through Gulzar Dadi, but it is definitely taking place through the corporeal chariot which the PBKs have faith in. SB even says in murlis that sometimes the chariot also speaks in between while He is narrating the murli. Sometimes he says that even if anything spoken by the chariot causes any apparent harm to the children then he will transform it into a benefit. So that means that many a times the chariot also speaks in the absence of SB. But in the case of Gulzar Dadi, it is only the soul of Brahma Baba, who enters into her body who speaks. Gulzar Dadi does not know anything that is going on through her body, until the soul of BB departs. Arjuna
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:11 am Post subject: The Bottom Line |
Gyaniwasi, Thank you for the book info. I'll check out the Guru Papers. Arjuna, I'll keep an open mind about the sources of the murli gyan. I have been investigating, for more than two decades and a half, the origins of Medicine. Like Science it originated from Silence. The fundamental question for me has always been this: Did Science and Medicine have their origins from the Silence present in the Supreme and from souls at a time confluence? _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Guest |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:20 am Post subject: |
Dear Errol bhai, Omshanti. I feel that there is certainly a connection between science and spirituality. Many things or acts which science can or cannot perform have been performed by persons with a high spiritual energy. There are innumerable examples of such feats across the world and especially in India. If one goes through the book "An autography of a yogi" by Paramhansa Yogananda or such similar books including the experiences of many BKs and PBKs then one can only wonder how such things or incidents could take place. But it is for real. Only disadvantage is that such incidents or things are not recognized by the scientific community. Arjuna
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:49 am Post subject: |
Errol: In the original thread for this topic - the bottom line - ifegenia did us a wonderful service by introducing us to The Guru Papers. I have since obtained a copy and have been reading it over time. It is a very thorough, well constructed work and is part of a larger work-in-progress called Control. Because I have been referring to it from time to time and because you raised the issue of trust I thought it would be useful to quote an excerpt here, moreso because in many ways it can be an interpretive mirror for us all.
Quote:
The Assault on Reason To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the ways people can build trust in themselves. Self-trust is built by utilizing one’s own personal first hand experience as feed-back. It is also built by sharpening mental and perceptual tools and frameworks in order to process, integrate and evaluate one’s relation to the external world, as well as to inner dramas. It is commonly assumed that the nature of spirituality is not only fundamentally different from ordinary experience, but that this difference is vastly superior. From this it is concluded that the tests of truth or meaning used for ordinary experience are not relevant for the so-called higher truths that gurus and religion offer. This age-old separation of the spiritual from the worldly is deeply embedded in all of civilization. We view this split as tragic, and at the core of fragmentation prevalent in the contemporary human psyche. The inner battle between the presumed higher and lower (or good and bad) parts of oneself often binds people with conflict by making them unable to accept themselves as whole human beings. We are in no way negating the occurrence and importance of transcendent experiences that cannot be encapsulated by thought. Actually, any experience, by its nature is different from the words that try to describe it. This includes the meaning of the color red, as well as the essence of what love is. That reason has limits is also true. But to conclude that reason is therefore useless or even harmful in integrating all these experiences is not true. Reason is not only a useful and necessary tool to sort things out, but it is insidiously dangerous to reject it. The Eastern view of enlightenment as beyond reason allows gurus to undermine reason. This precept alone makes the guru dangerously feed-back proof, for he automatically escapes accountability for any behavior. If pressed, the guru can easily reply, “You can’t possibly understand what I’m really doing because you’re not enlightened.” This stance, if believed, makes acceptable any incongruity between ideals and actions. The guru can reverse any challenge or criticism by saying, “It’s your problem; your ego is getting in the way.” He, of course, has no ego. Common phrases used as barriers against anything that questions spirituality are: “Your ego is experiencing resistance.” “You’re coming from the head instead of the heart. ”That’s a low-level consideration from the material world.” Once critical faculties are disarmed, followers can accept the most bizarre and inconsistent behaviors: Gurus preach the unity of all being, while isolating themselves from all who do not agree with them. They preach austerity and live lavishly. They preach equality and demand deference from their followers, who, following the lead of their idol, manage to feel superior to those deemed less spiritual. Anything the guru does can be viewed as a test of faith and commitment. Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When they do allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation. No matter what position you take, you are always shown to be missing the point; the point being that the guru knows something you do not. Paradox is usually accomplished by shifting levels of abstraction. In esoteric “spirituality,” this shift is from the realm of individuated existence to the abstract level of an overall unity. For example, when viewing existence as comprised of separate entities, individual people are the locus of suffering. The concept of unity does away with individuals. By combining the different levels and ignoring that they are different, paradoxical statements can be made, such as “There is suffering, yet no one suffers” and “All imperfection is perfect.” By changing the context in this way, almost anything can be made into a paradox, thereby intimating special wisdom. Paradox can also be used to justify any behavior by saying there is a hidden meaning that is part of the paradoxical nature of things, which of course, only the guru adequately understands. With some, it is fashionable to denigrate reason and elevate emotion or intuition in an attempt to transcend the dryness of mechanistic science and linear thought. But using emotion or intuition without reason is as one-sided and limited as using reason alone. For just as the head without the heart is barren, the heart without the head is rigid or chaotic. Living creatively is the art of combining passion with understanding. Without reason, one easily becomes a “true believer” who takes on beliefs that generate wanted emotions. Here, when thought is used, it functions to protect these beliefs by building an impregnable, closed system that is impenetrable to logic, experiences that do not fit, and inconsistencies (whether behavioral or mental). Sanity involves the capacity to respond to information, internal and external, in a way that contains the possibility of change. Interfering with this process is one of the most subtle and basic abuses of authority – that is, the denial of, or even assault on, the followers’ basic experiences and discriminatory capacities. This allows a leader to manipulate even highly educated people, especially if their intelligence did not bring them fulfillment. Reason does not guarantee wisdom. It is, however, a tool for integrating experience, which is necessary for self trust, without which there can be little wisdom. When critical intelligence is labeled unspiritual, or a hindrance to higher truths, what is left? There is little option but to take the worldview of some higher authority. (pp.73-76)
Bear in mind that this work itself should be read critically, even though there is hardly anything an "exit member" might want to disagree with. One reservation I have so far is the level of their interpretation of Unity or Oneness, but it is too early for me to make an overall judgment. Casa might also find the above excerpt interesting in light of the post on "The Head and the Heart". Gy. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:04 am Post subject: Response To The Bottom Line |
Gyaniwasi, I would also like to yell out a GREAT AHHA! OR even EUREAKA in response to the quotation from the Guru Papers. However, my years of conditioning as a Raj yogi still cuases me to respond with equaminity to such a great bit of wisdom. I am particularly impressed with the discussion of self-trust. I know from personal experience that self-tust is one of the fundamental protection of a soul from indoctrination. I have also experienced that incorporation of the mystical into the mundane life, though considered spiritually incorrect, harmonizes the life of an effort maker on the path. For example, once in gyan, I regarded the martial arts as a form of violence and gave up my martial arts studies. A personal security challenge forced me to re-examine the importance of bushido in my life. Here is a practice which played a major role in my success in secondary school and I had neglected it and focused on Raj Yoga for almost a decade. Once I re-commenced the practice of the martial arts, many mystical states became effortless for me. One is becoming soul conscious. I also felt a great state of harmony between my soul and Nature. I have witnessed some senior BK in the West calling a student stupid because the student was an accomplished PhD in radiology. Sometimes, because of my analysis of gyan by means of scientific reasoning, I was called Pathar Nath by a senior sister. In spite of such insults I still continue to trsut in myself and nurture scientific reasoning in my study of the mystical. Thanks again for the info. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: Response To The Bottom Line |
Arjuna, I read Swami Yogananda's book during my early days in gyan. One reason science does not accept phenmenon documented in Yogananda's autobiography and other similar works is simply because they cannot be throughly analyzed by the Scientific Method. The phenomena are relegated to the realm of the anecdotal. However, the barrier between anecdotal and scientific is disappearing in some instances due to sustained investigations of pioneers such as Dr. Herbert Benson of the Mind Body Institute at Harvard University Medical School. Benson has demonstrated by rigorous experimentation for more than 25 years that individuals by means of meditation and positive thinking can elecit a psychological response, the Relaxation Response, which is counter to the fight or flight response. Though Dr. Benson has been publishing his investigations in peer-reviewed journals such as Science and Nature, it has only been recent that mainstream science accepted his theories on Mind/Body interactions. Benson has also conducted studies on Tibetian monks who practice gi-tuma yoga. The monks are able to use meditation techniques to raise their body temperature to a level at which they can melt the wet frozen robes they are wearing. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:32 am Post subject: |
Dear Errol bhai, Omshanti. Thanks for the piece of information that you have provided. Arjuna
daviniamaher1 Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10 |
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
You might recall the stipulation about attending the centre at least 6 months before you are allowed to visit Madhuban. The BKs understand that principle.
If this is the case then why is it that they allow so many non bks to go? Could that be a reason for the change in vibrations there? I am sure if some ,who have left, who still have faith they, would be asked so many questions before they would be allowed to go or has the system changed. what really is the criteria for allowing people to go?
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