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kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:57 am Post subject: Finding a label -somewhere in between |
you know even as i write this im really sad because i dont know why i feel lost without a label which is rediculous really because i actually hate labeling people especially someone like me who changes so much anyway. so i know im not a brahmin anymore so i still dont buy an onion when im shopping.. WHY?? what the heck is an onion going to do to me really? I didnt kill it you know. So ok maybe my breath might smell there are worse things I suppose. So now im an Xbk another label since I still do by habit these stupid things ive been doing for years and I wonder will i ever lose my sense of guilt when I want to be close to my boyfriend. Its not like im hurting anyone else so why do I feel like im going to be punished for this. each time am i accumulating karma??? oh and this karma thing has got my brain fried. always lived by this karmic account thing, balancing each action to make sure I cancel out the bad and when bad stuff happens anyway I think oh hell how bad could i have been before this birth to put up with this. so okay most days are much better and this is a bad day. dont get me wrong i really like some of the stuff I learnt but i dont understand why they teach some of this stupid stuff to make us feel so guilty and sad because i dont agree (so then i think maybe im weak and giving in to Maya). i was so stupid for believing it, learning it and practicing it and now its a habit that i find difficult to break. i guess most of the time i have a good grip on things it just annoys me to still feel so lost in between the two worlds. is it just me or does anyone else have these bad days when you battle with yourself like this. thanks for letting me rant. your friend, kyra
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: |
Don't beat up on yourself kyra What you're going through is a part of 'withdrawal effects'. The time varies. Keep talking to us; someone is always listening/viewing and understands. If it's any comfort, check out bkry's post on 'onions and garlic'. We have to keep reawakening ourselves about what we expect in our hearts from 'God' - a strange reversal of the Kumbakharan figure we were told about, don't you think . If you feel ready for it, check out some lit. on programming and deprogramming in cults. Ifegenia has offered us some advice in this. You might also find Captive Hearts Captive Minds. Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Tobias & Lalich interesting. Garlic seems to have a lot of health benefits too - all part of 'God's wonderful creation'! Take care. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject: |
thanks for your reply gyaniwasi i was beginning to think maybe i should have kept that post to myself
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:22 am Post subject: |
Quote:
thanks for your reply gyaniwasi i was beginning to think maybe i should have kept that post to myself
No, definitely not! I've been mulling your post over these last few days because it rings true for me too. I haven't answered because I haven't been able to figure 'the why' out for myself yet. Maybe it's time to share though and get input. Yes, these taboos, why are they SO deep within us that years after no longer attending murli class we adhere to them regardless of whether it's mentally or physically healthy for us? Lots of things going on I suppose. Guilt certainly, but I think most of us have moved towards a relationship with a God where God more resembles the point of light we were first introduced to as opposed to the judemental being delivering the murlis. So why do we still feel guilty if on an intellectual level we no longer buy into the guilt trip? Is it perhaps an ego thing? Not eating certain foods and indulging in 'vices' supposedly made us purer than our fellows. We were guaranteed a special place in God's heart simply by avoiding certain foods, showing up for morning class, soaking up some wonderful vibations and the more difficult -avoiding relationships. If we stopped doing all these things our ego would have to take the blow of being reduced to the 'dirty, impure' level of our fellows. Perhpas a bit of vice for an XBK is a good thing as this might help us work through the ego and intolerance we picked up along the way as Brahmins. Finally adhering to B.K. precepts even in post B.K. life ensures that we can slide back into a center if we ever need to because we're continuing to meet the basic conditions for membership. Knowing that we can gain entry to a place where we can escape worries and concerns from the external world and bliss our way through difficulties is a nice plan B to have sitting in the background. What are your reactions? For those of you who've been able to move past the guilt, how did you do it?
daviniamaher1 Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10 |
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
it is probably because it is more deep rooted than we realise and probably something we have carried for many births not just this one. what many tend to forget is that food cooked with bad vibes is likely to do more harm to than the onion and garlic, Don't feel guilty about it because really it is just the taste that you have acquired
Mr Green Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 41 |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
it is bloomin hard to break free of the conditioning, I myself still carry on 'disciplines' that I never understood like eating an onion funny when you think about it, I haven't been near a centre now for 2-3 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
You know, it occurs to me that for many of us it was the first time we really gave our hearts away to 'the Supreme Beloved - God Himself.' And once you give your heart away like that it's almost impossible to take it back. I'm remembering some lines from Rod Mckuen's poetry "...once you say you love somebody you can't take it back ... it means forever ... always ..." The real problem with us is that even after leaving Gyan we continue to dwell on it (and within it) for years because it remains the closest we have come to experiencing God. That means that we have never really lost the faith that it is/was an encounter with God. We invested that personal Faith with varying degrees of trust. For those of us who believed with all our heart, we gave up everything to "follow shrimat"; it became a Law written into the very core of our being. On 'leaving gyan' then, the requirement for freedom is/was to renounce or withdraw that complete faith in the belief that the 'Shiv Baba' of the Brahma Kumaris is the identical person of the Universal "God Almighty." That step can be extremely challenging if the level of your belief and surrender was complete. Why? Because, I think, the belief has/had become the foundation of your ontological security without which you are lost. Transforming or changing the basis of that security requires great strength and support. Very often we cannot do it alone. We need the support of others who can empathize. That is where I have felt the value of this site. It is a critical support group. If you have been associated with it (or other xbks) for a long time you might notice an evolution in the beliefs and convictions of xbks. From a psychologically clinical perspective, an outsider might observe these shifts in perspectives or convictions as evidence of withdrawal from conditioning. The continuing experience of internal conflict might signal that the process is not yet complete. The literature on these matters show that it can last for a short time or for many years, and this is understandable because it is a process of remaking oneself. So cheer up guys, you're not alone. You know, after some 21 years of departure I still feel a bit hesitant when I make myself a three slice sandwich Why? Because for years I'd been conditioned by the anecdotes told to us at the centres - "Baba (most likely Brahma Baba) used to say if you you are satisfied with 2 chapatis then it is a sign that you will go to the Golden Age; if it takes 3 to satisfy you then it's a sign you will go to the Silver Age because it means you have not conquered Greed." Many times when I was hungry and needed more I'd restrain myself by the "2 chapati" rule ... how about that for conditioning Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
gyaniwasi wrote:
"Baba (most likely Brahma Baba) used to say if you you are satisfied with 2 chapatis then it is a sign that you will go to the Golden Age; if it takes 3 to satisfy you then it's a sign you will go to the Silver Age because it means you have not conquered Greed." Many times when I was hungry and needed more I'd restrain myself by the "2 chapati" rule ... how about that for conditioning
How utterly ridiculous!
Babbit Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
I haven't posted for ages but I've been lurking and reading. . .I wasn't sure whether to put this post here or in the main XBK forum. I miss it sometimes -- I miss the discipline, the friends, the sense of 'family', the moral certainty, the feeling of having a clear higher purpose. If I sit with those feelings, I know I am romanticising being a BK -- I'm feeling lonely so I lean toward what I want to feel and I don't remember the things I don't miss -- which would be a much longer list! There is a parallel for me with becoming vegetarian, which I did just before becoming a BK and still am. When I 'miss' meat, I know what I am really missing is in my imagination -- the idea of it, rather than the reality -- if I went out and had a burger, it would not taste anything like I expect. Does that make sense? It's the same things for the BKs -- missing that feeling of belonging. I struggled so hard by myself before I walked into a BK centre and then it seemed as though I had finally found a support system. But I was wrong. It's hard to be back on my own again. But it's better. I don't feel I'm making spiritual progress as quickly now as when I was a BK, but perhaps that means that whatever progress I make now is well-earned. But I would think that, wouldn't I?
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
Babbit wrote:
I miss it sometimes -- I miss the discipline, the friends, the sense of 'family', the moral certainty, the feeling of having a clear higher purpose.
Hiya Babbit - you know you can find those things elsewhere in society, you just have to be open to go looking And it doesn't always have to be in a religion either...
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
Babbit wrote:
I struggled so hard by myself before I walked into a BK centre and then it seemed as though I had finally found a support system. But I was wrong.
Same here, Babbit Luckily (as it seems to me now), I couldn't actually go thru with the whole Baba-believing thing, feeling it to be nothing but self-brainwashing...which it was in the end! I also feel that anything spiritual I experience from now on (if I ever do...i'm remaing open to future possiblities) at least is going to be free from BK-dogma etc. After trying in vain, I could not see how constantly having to monitor your thoughts/feelings for "seditious" content re the BK beliefs could possibly make anyone more peaceful or happier. Rather the reverse I would imagine, especially if you've had any past history of depressive problems...you will end up doing nothing but continually monitor every single waking moment; and the brain-washing dogma will cease to have any meaning whatsoever, eventually. But then some people actually find it comforting to have everything already worked out for them, presented on a platter and all they have to do is believe blindly. So I can only imagine that the struggle to free yourself would only get tougher the longer you were involved. The more guilt involved in breaking the BK rules and turning your back on Baba...losing the prospect of the Golden Age....losing the 'family' which gives you a sense of belonging (and maybe even a type of arrogant superiority as you have THE ANSWER whereas all those ignorant millions HAVEN'T!) all these things combine to make a fairly effective control mechanism against those contemplating leaving... You have to have strength and determination to resist the inevitable entreaties to stay, and also the dire warnings about what your "fall from grace" will entail for your soul
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Aspiring to go into the Golden Age by depriving ones self? |
Gyaniwasi, Thank you for you honesty, selfless giving (bearing your emotional self) to others so as to guide them or their loved ones home (back to normalcy). This post came to me as a much needed gift, at a crucial time and is helping some one I love ever so dearly. Gyaniwasi,
Quote:
You know, it occurs to me that for many of us it was the first time we really gave our hearts away to 'the Supreme Beloved - God Himself.' And once you give your heart away like that it's almost impossible to take it back. I'm remembering some lines from Rod Mckuen's poetry "...once you say you love somebody you can't take it back ... it means forever ... always ..." The real problem with us is that even after leaving Gyan we continue to dwell on it (and within it) for years because it remains the closest we have come to experiencing God. That means that we have never really lost the faith that it is/was an encounter with God. We invested that personal Faith with varying degrees of trust. For those of us who believed with all our heart, we gave up everything to "follow shrimat"; it became a Law written into the very core of our being. On 'leaving gyan' then, the requirement for freedom is/was to renounce or withdraw that complete faith in the belief that the 'Shiv Baba' of the Brahma Kumaris is the identical person of the Universal "God Almighty." That step can be extremely challenging if the level of your belief and surrender was complete. Why? Because, I think, the belief has/had become the foundation of your ontological security without which you are lost. Transforming or changing the basis of that security requires great strength and support. Very often we cannot do it alone. We need the support of others who can empathize. That is where I have felt the value of this site. It is a critical support group. If you have been associated with it (or other xbks) for a long time you might notice an evolution in the beliefs and convictions of xbks. From a psychologically clinical perspective, an outsider might observe these shifts in perspectives or convictions as evidence of withdrawal from conditioning. The continuing experience of internal conflict might signal that the process is not yet complete. The literature on these matters show that it can last for a short time or for many years, and this is understandable because it is a process of remaking oneself. So cheer up guys, you're not alone. You know, after some 21 years of departure I still feel a bit hesitant when I make myself a three slice sandwich Why? Because for years I'd been conditioned by the anecdotes told to us at the centres - "Baba (most likely Brahma Baba) used to say if you you are satisfied with 2 chapatis then it is a sign that you will go to the Golden Age; if it takes 3 to satisfy you then it's a sign you will go to the Silver Age because it means you have not conquered Greed." Many times when I was hungry and needed more I'd restrain myself by the "2 chapati" rule ... how about that for conditioning
Can you or the others here expand on this teaching of the BKs, perhaps comment if you have had any issues, your spouses or other loved ones due to this teaching. Do you find yourself eating too much, not eating enough, or having guilt with food in general? Do you avoid sweets? Do you find your self telling others not to eat sweets? Do you find your self overly concerned with food for you or others? Gy I need to understand how this teaching is conveyed: subtlety, directly, body language, or subliminally. As I have stated before some times we are not given the disclosure form before being indoctrinated, all the more tragic when the ones being indoctrinated are untrained minds and so innocent. Gyaniwasi,
Quote:
You know, after some 21 years of departure I still feel a bit hesitant when I make myself a three slice sandwich Why? Because for years I'd been conditioned by the anecdotes told to us at the centres - "Baba (most likely Brahma Baba) used to say if you you are satisfied with 2 chapatis then it is a sign that you will go to the Golden Age; if it takes 3 to satisfy you then it's a sign you will go to the Silver Age because it means you have not conquered Greed." Many times when I was hungry and needed more I'd restrain myself by the "2 chapati" rule ... how about that for conditioning
My learning continues…… Regards, Tete P.S. Please don't ask any personal questions of me here, I only posted it here so other lost souls could benefit from it and perhaps have an easier time sorting things out. When the baggage doesn't belong to you toss them back!
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Aspiring to go into the Golden Age by depriving ones sel |
Tete wrote:
Gyaniwasi,
Quote:
You know, after some 21 years of departure I still feel a bit hesitant when I make myself a three slice sandwich Why? Because for years I'd been conditioned by the anecdotes told to us at the centres - "Baba (most likely Brahma Baba) used to say if you you are satisfied with 2 chapatis then it is a sign that you will go to the Golden Age; if it takes 3 to satisfy you then it's a sign you will go to the Silver Age because it means you have not conquered Greed." Many times when I was hungry and needed more I'd restrain myself by the "2 chapati" rule ... how about that for conditioning
And how about the cleanliness rules? After fastidiously bathing following bowel movements for 10 years, I found it empowering do decide that washing my hands afterwards could be sufficient. It was empowering to decide that I wouldn't *want* to excise my sexuality, even if I could have. It was empowering to discover that I could enjoy a hamburger or a glass of wine without feeling my soul was in danger. Getting out from under the BK cloud was, for me, a quite miraculous process taking some years. First there were some cracks in the perfectly consistent whole that I viewed gyan, maryadas and BK culture as comprising. I was still a practicing BK. Eventually, like a bubble bursting, the cracks expanded and expanded until nothing of the bubble was left but my own self judgments and self hates and self ridicule from before gyan. Somehow I avoided the heavy guilt of "leaving God" that probably prompted Ranjana to suicide. I wish I could figure out the genius by which I accomplished that to be able to share it with others. Partly it was finding that "God" seemed to be wrong about certain things, that for example, seeing with my own eyes/heart that people could speak about "negative" aspects of their lives in AA meetings with results that were not only not damaging, but were actually nourishing and healing. After several years of constant tiredness from self suppression and sleep deprivation, I began to feel that "Yoga" was not a magic electrical generator connection switch or a magic key that would invigorate me. And I remember hearing Avyakt Bapdada speak a murli, curious to find that he didn't answer the questions and conflicts in my heart. I remember finding I *disliked* sitting like a carrot in the big hall in Madhuban while foreign sisters brought Baba birthday cakes and people like Charlie and Denise got recognition. I remember choosing to support a fellow BK who was leaving before I did, realizing that I could choose between being a supportive friend to her, or a rigid extension of a structure of formulaic answers and rituals. I chose the former, embraced it with relief. I think finding a way to leave Baba and find oneself is as miraculous finding God and the BK family in the first place, if not moreso.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
Tete asked:
Quote:
Gy I need to understand how this teaching is conveyed: subtlety, directly, body language, or subliminally.
Nothing subtle about its conveyance. Those were like comments made by the Indian sisters during classes in the context of some point from a murli etc. Too long ago for me to remember the details of context. Thanks for that kind of sharing, Joel. Much appreciated and very vital to those of us labouring under the spell of guilt. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
Zhukov said:
Quote:
You have to have strength and determination to resist the inevitable entreaties to stay, and also the dire warnings about what your "fall from grace" will entail for your soul
I remember the irony of making my decision to leave one night in a room which was 5 stories high in a country far away from home (Japan). I gazed out from an open window into a starlit indigo sky and after much reflection took the elevator down to the lobby, went to the vending machine and bought my first pack of cigarettes in almost 10 years. Soon after, I started a physical relationship and was surprised that nothing earth shattering happened. That was a beautiful interlude. I started frequenting the bookstores in Tokyo, began jogging through the streets, often dropping in at restaurants for dinner before returning to the International Centre where I was living as a student. I used to enjoy the parks also. Before I did all this, I had written to my home centre asking for the address of the Tokyo centre because I was trying to save myself from "falling". Never did find it, but found a new freedom instead. I made new friends and went trekking across the landscape of Japan, visiting the Buddist temples including the massive statue at Kamakura, lived with a farmer's family for a few days, took long train rides enjoying the landscape and my first relationship with a woman after some 10 years. And in all that I never feared the wrath of God. It was truly a beautiful interlude in my life. So there's 'life after death' Babbit but you have to undertake the responsibility to make it yourself - with a little help from your friends. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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