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howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:06 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
The problem with the Murlis is that they are actually not that deep or detailed. There is not that material in them. They are very simplistic and repetitive.
I agree, the murlis are simplistic and repetitive. They focus on a few main points, and hammer them home with repetition. Very good and powerful points that can take you a very long way if you take them on board, but they do not address many big questions that naturally arise in the western intellect. And no significant new information ever seems to be given.... So we have to look beyond the murli.
Quote:
Original thought is not welcomed.
yes - I had a big problem with this one at the centres....
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
Brahma Baba is doing the telling, but God is being Peaceful, Loveful etc. We have to learn how to 'catch' God's expression by reading and then feel between the lines. Thinking is not helpful in this process! l
Yes there is this fundamental matter of what is the role of thinking? Too much thinking / asking questions is not good, but on the other hand not enough is also not good and creates a different problem. It's hard to get the balance right.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject: |
Satish said
Quote:
If it is just soul knowledge we have that vast.
I don't mean just knowledge I mean realisation of what it is to be a soul and live in that consciousness. God realisation is to see Shiva as he really is without the colouring of our own mind. To do this we need accurate knowledge so we can have true remembrance of Shiva Baba and our soul consciouseness state. Purity is gained through remembrance and that is how we change into Deities. I believe the more accurate the knowledge the more accurate the remembrance, which is why things are numberwise.
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject: |
John, you are absolutely right . Also what I think remeberance can come down, if we dont take experience including with knowledge into consideration. One need to be fair about the experience of God with self while following purity and also should never be under estimated. thnks satish
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: |
Yes I agree purity is vital to become complete. We have 63 births over 2500 years of coming down into impurity, the sanskars are very strong. Shiva Baba says burn your impurities in the fire of yoga. and on that note i'm going to do a bit of burning
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
Well, for me, churning means contemplating on a murli point or on selected murli points while we go within. It is not sufficient to just contemplate on the murli point. It is also important to go within (become introverted) while contemplating on the murli point. Once I narrated an experience to a BK and he said that it was an experience of being a Master Almighty Authority. I could see that he understood what he was saying but I did not understand. So I read all the murli points that I could get on Master Almighty Authority and I still did not understand because I was trying to put the points together so as to come to a conclusion. Then, I decised to go within (become introverted ) while contemplating on the murli points. After doing this, I understood. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:50 am Post subject: |
I have heard a description of churning being like the churning of milk and from that you get cream and butter. In one of the BK pictures Krishna is seen holding the butter.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject: |
John wrote:
I have heard a description of churning being like the churning of milk and from that you get cream and butter. In one of the BK pictures Krishna is seen holding the butter.
OK John. But what does that actually mean? Take a point out of the Murli, like " you are the pure ones, all others are impure ". Now make it into butter for me. What " butter " do you get out of that?
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
Take a point out of the Murli, like " you are the pure ones, all others are impure ".
Well I don't understand that, maybe I'd have to read it in context. My understanding is that all souls become impure in the Iron age. Only a very few if that become totally pure in the confluence age. The rest are pure numberwise. All souls have to become pure to go back to paramdham, as it is a totally pure realm. The souls who don't make themselves pure are purified at Dharamraj. Each soul has it's own level of purity or power and the more or stronger that is, the nearer they come to the start of the golden age. All souls when they first come down from paramdham are pure. The amount of power needed to come at the start is greater than what would be needed to come nearer the end of the drama. Bit like a battery, in that if it needed to last longer it would have to have more power to start with.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
To my understanding the butter of churning knowledge is a deeper understanding. With that comes more enthusiasm for remembrance and with that more power , purity, divine qualities can be gained by a soul.
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
Brahma will say what he thinks/believes, and i imagine Shiva is blissfully unconcerned... what will be will be.. he sees the big picture... I don't accept the 5000 years thing myself, nor many details in the murli, but i do perceive a shining light behind the words, which fascinates and uplifts me (even as my rational western intellect struggles with the literal words).
Dear howiemac, Does this mean that you don't accept the BK view of the sakar murli that God literally enters the body of Brahma Baba? I have mentioned this is another thread here http://tinyurl.com/dgc9n Do you agree that the sakar murli clearly makes this claim, and that this is the foundation of BKWSU? We are back to the problem of how can God's messenger say things that are not true? One possible explanation is that Brahma Baba is in a state of spiritual ecstasy which he conceives / interprets as God entering his body. I read somewhere the view that 'all theology is poetry', so God entering Brahma Baba's body could be interpreted not literally, but poetically ie expressing a closeness to God.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
I have a feeling that for many it just means to repeat over and over again in their minds, the " facts " they have learned, especially to be bale to teach. Originally and still, there must be a large amount of sieving through of Bhakti versus Gyan. For some, especially the Westerners, there must be an element of recompling their understanding of the world based around now absolute " God " given truths. For me, " The Knowledge " [tm] is just designed to plug questions in the mind in order to close it down and shut it up so that the channelling aspect of B.K. Raja Yoga can take place and this is reinforced by the institution where new thinking is discouraged and criticised.
You have expressed what misgivings I also had with this, although I just called it 'brainwashing' at the time.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
^^ Actually as an addendum to this ~
ex-london wrote:
I have a feeling that for many it just means to repeat over and over again in their minds, the " facts " they have learned, especially to be bale to teach.
(I'm assuming you meant 'able' here hehe ) I just noticed this part of the quote a little more carefully and realised something. I assimilated 'the (basic) Knowledge' fairly quickly initally (in that first flush of hope and excitement that "Yes! this might be the solution where psychaitry had failed"), but without engaging any critical thinking about the substance of what I was being taught, as yet anway. I answered questions easily in groups and was articulate enough for them to welcome me in as someone who might possibly at some future time, be able to teach or at least be able to spread the word effectively. Your post just brought that home to me suddenly as to why one particular BK was so assiduous in trying to push me over and over and over into 'believing in Baba'....which actually made me start to question exactly what I'd been told. Ironically enough, without their unasked-for efforts which actually drove me further away, I might well have not questioned at all in the first place and continued with them
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
Uddhava wrote:
Dear howiemac, Does this mean that you don't accept the BK view of the sakar murli that God literally enters the body of Brahma Baba?
I have never given it much thought, but it seems to me very unlikely that the soul of Shiva enters the body (or subtle body) of Brahma, as it is not necessary for full soul-to-soul communication...
Quote:
Do you agree that the sakar murli clearly makes this claim, and that this is the foundation of BKWSU?
yes, i agree, but don't accept what the murli says just because it says it (no matter how many times), because i see it as the words of Brahma, as inspired by Shiva, to get a specific task done (the creation of the 'Brahmin' religion). Not the words of Shiva because Shiva is beyond language and physicality and cannot 'speak'. Even the BKs taught me that 'the murli is not scripture', and that it should not be taken literally and dogmatically as the perfect word of God (though many DO take it that way).
Quote:
how can God's messenger say things that are not true?
just as easily as you or me can.
Quote:
One possible explanation is that Brahma Baba is in a state of spiritual ecstasy which he conceives / interprets as God entering his body. I read somewhere the view that 'all theology is poetry', so God entering Brahma Baba's body could be interpreted not literally, but poetically ie expressing a closeness to God.
sounds good to me. That is how i see it.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: |
Quote:
Quote: how can God's messenger say things that are not true? just as easily as you or me can.
I would say that God is an Ocean of the powers to adopt and adjust. Thus, He has great abilities to say etc as per the sanskaras of those who He is speaking or dealing with. Thus, it can seem like as if : 1. the BKs have their own God, 2. if the Christians have their own God, 3. the HIndus have their own Gods based on the idol which they worship, 4. the Muslims have their own God, 5. the PBKs have their own God, 6. etc. However, in truth, there is only one God and I say this from my own experiences. I can understand that those who have not subtly experienced this might not accept this. But based on my own experiences, I say that there is only one God and He does have an Ocean of the powers to adopt and adjust. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
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