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bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: When does the first vice occur |
Hi again BKs say that there is no vice in the GA or SA. Well, according to BK, all souls are "numberwise" meaning not every soul will be 16% celestial if they do not make it into first 900,000. And by the second generation GA, there is already degradation of 1/4%. Isn't that already the doorway for vice to occur in the GA ? Then how are partners going to be decided in the GA....since everyone is perfect, then the guy across the road will just do fine ? No need for courting and checking him out ? Why would vice occur from only in the Copper Age onwards when already by that time souls are imperfect ? Quest for truth and love to all bansy
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: Re: When does the first vice occur |
welcome to the forum Bansy
bansy wrote:
Hi again BKs say that there is no vice in the GA or SA. Well, according to BK, all souls are "numberwise" meaning not every soul will be 16% celestial if they do not make it into first 900,000. And by the second generation GA, there is already degradation of 1/4%. Isn't that already the doorway for vice to occur in the GA ?
well - as i understand it there is a purification process in between: dharamraj and the celstial fire of yoga - the 'dirt' will be cleaned off of all the souls one way or another, at least to get them to the required level of purity for their next incarnation.
Quote:
Then how are partners going to be decided in the GA....since everyone is perfect, then the guy across the road will just do fine ? No need for courting and checking him out ?
interesting question - i lean towards a 'soul-mates' scenario - in a perfect world we would each automatically find and unite with the one other soul who was most perfect for us.... as for courting, that would be part of the fun and games we play in the garden?
Quote:
Why would vice occur from only in the Copper Age onwards when already by that time souls are imperfect ?
depends on how you categorise vice - the whole gameplan is one of continual and gradual degradation, from the beginning of the golden age onwards.. surely 'vice' creeps in gradually, and not just suddenly at the start of the copper age.... same for sorrow and pain... i mean if the silver age is the 'warrior age' how could there be no violence at all?
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
I think the first sign of vice would be very subtle an attraction to the body rather than the soul
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
there is a purification process in between: dharamraj and the celstial fire of yoga
I guess no soul (other than BB according to BKs) will ever know if they will go into the GA or not. You are to just to spend the rest of this entire final birth purifying oneself and let Dharamraj do the rest to see if you have any drops of vices left and hence incarnate into whichever generation depending on your celestial degree. So comes the age old catch22 question...does it matter where you go to if this drama is fixed and you'll end up in the cycle where you'll always will be, with your fixed celestial degrees (though you don't know what this is) ?
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
John wrote:
I think the first sign of vice would be very subtle an attraction to the body rather than the soul
Otherwise known as the " first hard on in heaven ". The B.K.s blame it on the 21st incarnation of Dada Lehkraj wanting to feel up another deity but I reckon it must have been a little bit of teenage " angst " probably under the covers with a Silver Aged lingerie catalogue. Brahma had a quick Tommy Tank and the whole sky fell in on paradise. I am sorry but this is all complete and idyll speculation of the basis of fairy tales. It is the talk of thing the B.K.s encourage, in the same way that tabloid journalists enourage chit-chat about celebrities because it keep folks in an exploitable situation thinking of them rather than the necessity and realities of their own lives. They say he led us into vice and therefore out of it too. But what is the value of believing in that?
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:23 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
John wrote:
I think the first sign of vice would be very subtle an attraction to the body rather than the soul
Otherwise known as the " first hard on in heaven ".
so, ex-london, are you saying there is no sex without body-consciousness - that reproduction in the golden age would be by non-physical means? Surely it is not the 'hard-on' that matters, but the consciousness. but of course, you think the golden age (or new age) is all
Quote:
complete and idyll speculation of the basis of fairy tales.
Well i believe there are many deep truths expressed metaphorically in fairy tales... I realise you are trying to prevent open discussion of esoteric knowledge by using ridicule, and fair play, no harm in having a laugh, but don't asssume that everyone else has your negative perspective on the teachings of the East.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: |
bansy wrote:
So comes the age old catch22 question...does it matter where you go to if this drama is fixed and you'll end up in the cycle where you'll always will be, with your fixed celestial degrees (though you don't know what this is) ?
personally i don't think it matters a jot . We are who we are and will be what we will be. The most important thing is to find one's true self and to be that. I don't agree with the 'carrot' approach to spirituality shown by Brahma in the murlis (let alone the 'stick' approach..) - for me, a more spiritual lifestyle is worth pursuing because it brings happiness, contentment, and love into your life, and into the life of everyone you come into contact with. Not because of 'earning' some future 'reward'....
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: bubble gum for the mind |
howiemac wrote:
so, ex-london, are you saying there is no sex without body-consciousness - that reproduction in the golden age would be by non-physical means? Surely it is not the 'hard-on' that matters, but the consciousness.
I promise you, I try and remember that most morning when I wake up. And certainly tried whilst I was a B.K. Perhaps [ obviously ] the seniors sisters are unaware of how male biology works.
howiemac wrote:
but of course, you think the golden age (or new age) is all
Quote:
complete and idyll speculation of the basis of fairy tales.
but don't asssume that everyone else has your negative perspective on the teachings of the East.
That should have been idle speculation [ but it works both ways ]. I am sorry but, by their own lore, B.K. Raja Yoga is not a " teachings of the East " and to use such a collective noun with an implicit high value is misleading. Of course, I value the contributions made to human understanding by elements of Buddhist and Taoist thought. I find Orthodox Hinduism a little bit too muddled, muddied, phantasmagorical and incoherent - even though it may have been one of the fathers of such thought. But to engage in such speculation is nothing but what a friend once called " bubble gum for the mind ", i.e. somethng that keeps there your jaws of your mind going up and down as if they were working but that is ultimately empty of nutrition or even damaging to your [mental] health. I take your second post are being valuable. What is important is not the hereafter, it is the here and now. And that is where spiritual understanding and spiritual efforts ought lie. Its a funny thing but although I am largely critical of the B.K. system, I defend its right - and demand of it - to be itself. And in a sense, I demand of those supporting it to be true to their religion. One of the trends I see in John's thoughts is that the B.K. Knowldege [tm] is interpretable, open to subjective moulding. that you can take it and make it your own. It is absolutely not. This is what the " so called Shiva " called in the Murlis, " a mouse finds a grain of turmeric and opens a shop " . By their own lore, personal opinion is the anti-thesis of Godly opinion [ manmat versus shrimat ]. You cant be a B.K. and have a valuable subjective opinion about anything! It is your responsibility to give over your own mind to Shiva completely [ Manmanahbhav ]. If you chose your own understanding, you are off the path and out. It is as simple as that. ... and where God's words are not clear, you have to submit your understanding to what the SS say. As far as the " so called Shiva's " role outside of the Confluence Age, what they say in the Murlis is clear. There is none. No influence. No inspiration. All the other religions, e.g. Christianity, Islam were deluded into thinking that they were having some Godly experience. You can start your own religion but can't invent B.K. Raja Yoga into being what it is not.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
One of the trends I see in John's thoughts is that the B.K. Knowldege [tm] is interpretable, open to subjective moulding. that you can take it and make it your own. It is absolutely not.
But who is to say whos interpretation is right. Yours? Senior Sisters? Is interpretation amongst all senior sisters the same? If you think you have the 100% correct Interpretation I think you are deluded. You say a religion has a right to be understood and presented as it is. Is only your opinon on what it is correct? You talk as if everything you say is a fact. You have put BKs in a box, but it is only a box of your own making PBKs have a different interpretation. If Shiva no longer enters into the BK fold since 1969, thats about 36 years without proper direction. That would allow time for manmat to creep in. BKs have admitted they don't know lots of stuff, they don't even know about the advance party.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
It is your responsibility to give over your own mind to Shiva completely [ Manmanahbhav ]. If you chose your own understanding, you are off the path and out. It is as simple as that.
Exactly my experience & precisely why I was 'shown the door'. I couldn't silence my doubts raised by all the inconsistencies; as well as a hidden but strong peer pressure to "accept Baba NOW". Witness how at the start of the 7-week course you are required to write down on your info form if you believe in "a" God or not.....and here the pressure starts especially if you honestly write "NO" as I did. The dadi at this centre came in to our 'graduating class' at the end of the 7 weeks to hear "if we had accepted all The Knowledge [tm] (<<thanks ex-london lol) yet". However as I had shown not 100% certainty in this belief, i was drawn aside just before she came into the room and was given whispered urgings to "Tell her you believe in Baba now". To my subsequent discomfort, I yielded to this pressure in order to 'make them happy' although I felt like I was gravely cheating my inner self by doing so. It seems in retrospect that the Dadi just wanted more "proof" that another soul had been "gained for the organisation" ie some kind of brownie points Although of course, all that little ontological confusion I had was really about was not being sufficiently soul-conscious wasn't it
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
Quote:
However as I had shown not 100% certainty in this belief, i was drawn aside just before she came into the room and was given whispered urgings to "Tell her you believe in Baba now". To my subsequent discomfort, I yielded to this pressure in order to 'make them happy' although I felt like I was gravely cheating my inner self by doing so.
Hi zhukov, I find it a shame that you came across this kind of behaviour. I never experienced this kind of pressure. I was lucky enough to be in contact with centres that would not tolerate such a disrespect. When I came into contact with the BK's, I was of the same opinion about God but I was still made to feel welcome even when I voiced that opinion. Do you think that if you had been allowed to 'air' your own feelings and opinions, things may have been different for you? with love wahl
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
It was the same experience for me as Wahl. I never felt any pressure. The only understanding I had was if you wanted to go to Madhuban you would have to follow strictly the BK routine for 6 months. Having visited madhuban I could see this was a wise pre requisite because the program there is intense. It might be interesting to note what years members of this forum started in BK life or were introduced to it, to see if there was a pattern of change and when.
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: |
Quote:
you would have to follow strictly the BK routine
Generally, for any type of organisation, there is needs discipline. You need discipline as soon another being walks into the the same room as yours. A system is made in an organisation (eg school, army, office, family etc) where you as an individual are given the methods to cope alone, that would equally apply also when interacting with others. Spiritual organisations can suffer from lack of discipline. It is the definition of "discipline" that is at stake, and who dares questions the Five Star General on the battlefield. I am sure if each day it was just between BB and myself, I'd be quite disciplined. One level down (e.g. Dadi's) and already vice creeps in. I do notice that the older BKs mention BB more ("the good old days") and the younger BKs talk about Dadis and seniors more. Then for many of us, it is about questioning 2 star generals, colonels etc instead. Thus no wonder in the murlis it is always propounded to simply remember only Shiv Baba and getting back to the Seed.
Quote:
but can't invent B.K. Raja Yoga into being what it is not.
However, if such discipline, whatever the hardships, brings some sort of enlightenment or self respect to oneself, then it is worth it. Then move on. I cannot recall where the following comes from ... "If God does not exist but you believe in Him, then you wouldn't lose too much; but if God did exist and you didn't believe Him, then you would".
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
Do you think that if you had been allowed to 'air' your own feelings and opinions, things may have been different for you?
I doubt it...since I was advised to leave anyway on the basis of my seditious 'brainwashing' opinions LOL
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: |
Its strange John but for someone that has been into the B.K.'s even as far as to get to Mount Abu, you really don't seem to have been listened to what they say.
John wrote:
Quote:
One of the trends I see in John's thoughts is that the B.K. Knowldege [tm] is interpretable, open to subjective moulding. that you can take it and make it your own. It is absolutely not.
But who is to say whos interpretation is right. Yours? Senior Sisters? Is interpretation amongst all senior sisters the same?
You are doing it again John, trying to reduce the discussion to a subjective level. " My opinion versus your opinion ... ", it is a weak way to try and devalue what the other person is saying. Yes, if I comment on what the B.K.'s said or what there position is, I will report it factually. I won't re-invent the B.K.s for good or bad. That is only fair and proper. The B.K. lore is so sparse that it is hard not for the seniors to stick to the party line. And with regards to Shiva and the cycle, their God has spoken. Now, if you want to say " I think the B.K.s are wrong and God does play a part in human evolution " - then that is another matter. You have a right to an opinion just as we have to ask you to sustain it with whatever evidence you have got. ... of course, you might have to convince us that the so called Shiva and " God " are indeed one and the same ... !
John wrote:
PBKs have a different interpretation. If Shiva no longer enters into the BK fold since 1969, thats about 36 years without proper direction. That would allow time for manmat to creep in.
Firstly, the P.B.K.s are not B.K.s. I have no idea what they are about but given that they are rigorously denied and barred by the B.K.s you cannot judge or compare the B.K.s system by them. Secondly, it is wrong - by what the B.K.s believe - to say that the so called Shiva no longer enters into the B.K. fold, John. According to " The Knowledge " [tm] the so called Shiva still enters into the B.K. fold in the joint form of Bapdada - and you must know this. That is no " my opinion ", that is 100% what they say.
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