| XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris
FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups
Profile You have no new messages Log out
Who is Shiv-Baba? Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
| XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author | Message
--- | ---
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
Karma - surely science has accepted this all along in the law (i am not a scientist and don't know its precise name) that states that for every force there must be an equal and opposite force. For every action there is a reaction. Therefore every action has a cause.... what is the plausible alternative theory?
On a physical level, there is a difference between an action and a reaction. An action is a movement away from balance / stasis; the reaction is the movement back to stasis. So in what you are writing you are looking at two issues. What causes a " new action " and what causes a " reaction ". From my point of view, that there must be " new actions " [ free will ] both " good " and " bad " and this is the bit that many folks miss out of the karma equation seeing life entirely as a series of " reactions " [ absolutely pre-determination ]. What causes these is the will of the soul acting in matter. Personally, I cant see how the equation would fit if it were not possible to start new chains of reaction and that opens up the thought that not everything that happens to oneself is the fruit of previous karma. From the B.K. point of view, we know they say that everything pre-B.K for the last x thousands years is a reaction from actions done in this short period and there is a tendency to accept it as an inescapable slow decline. What causes the reactions though, that is interesting? Is there a " sticky glue " on one level that holds the universe together working out ways to deliver back its blows? I don't know. In the mechanical world where Newton first drew out his third Law of Motion there are very clear material connections between the action and the immediate reaction. I am not sure they work on a " karmic level ". I am not even sure that there is a " karmic level ", e.g. if you slap a child hard and they fall over, your hand hurts, you must move it back and they get up. That is full of action and reactionary forces. But Newton would not extrapolate that you now have to hang around to be reborn as a child to be whacked. Some folks think that it is nothing external from the individual soul. That the soul's vibrations are changed by its thoughts, words and actions and that a general state arises that attracts or repels loose general conditions, e.g. nice people attract nice things to them, angry people attract fights. This theorises that the stases and balancing happens within only. We hit the child, we feel guilty, we treat the next children we meet with kindness to make up or when something randomly happens to us that we don't like we rationalise that it was because of the harm we did before. I am not a scientist either. It was always interesting to me why Newton's Laws of Motion were not applied more given their universal application but I guess that is because no one would fund research and it is big cosmic science that scientist don't like or are ridiculed for doing. Is " karma " and the third Law of Motion the same thing? I don't think so. I think that it is something that the Hippy / Pandit / New Age has climbed on board and now repeat without question to give credibility to their religious beliefs. Incidentally, the first Law of Motion is " Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it ". If you applied that to " every soul " you'd be asking different questions but I think it would fit to my first supposition that new karma happens to us, good and bad, all the time. Ex-L
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: red light |
red light has been used for a very long time by mediums to make contact with the astral easier. it is supposed to "thin the Veil"
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
From my point of view, that there must be " new actions " [ free will ] both " good " and " bad " and this is the bit that many folks miss out of the karma equation seeing life entirely as a series of " reactions " [ absolutely pre-determination ]. What causes these is the will of the soul acting in matter. Personally, I cant see how the equation would fit if it were not possible to start new chains of reaction and that opens up the thought that not everything that happens to oneself is the fruit of previous karma.
Thanks ex-l i find your analysis helpful. In my experience over the years, my life goes well, flows easily, when i take care to 'do the right thing', and things get unpleasant when i misbehave. This feels like a rapid and accurate return of karma. It seems that the key thing is the intention rather than the act - one will not suffer much from a 'bad' action done in innocence. I don't know whether this 'instant karma' is happening just because we are at the end of a cycle (ie this is the one point in the cycle when the clearing of karmic 'accounts' cannot be postponed to a future life), or whether it always works like this - but i get the feeling, like you indicate, that we are constantly, throughout the cycle, creating new karmic accounts, through wilful action. This BK thing of our current behaviour in this life determining all of our remaining lives in the cycle just doesn't seem to fit - i reckon its another of BB's sticks to beat BKs into shape with.... I can believe there is very positive karmic return received for deliberately working on the self to become more Godly and pure, at a time when most of the world around us is plunging into the depths of gross materiality, and trying to pull us down with it. But i think we get that return now, as what BB calls 'instant fruit', before we become karmateet. We cannot be both karmateet at the start of the cycle, and also fully charged up with a store of karmic "treasure" which will last us through the cycle. If there is a 'treasure store' mechanism, then surely it must be unrelated to karma?... i can't see how we can 'buy' the original degree of purity of the soul, through our thoughts and actions now (or any other time).
Sam wrote:
red light has been used for a very long time by mediums to make contact with the astral easier. it is supposed to "thin the Veil"
Thanks for answering my query - i guess this is where the BK use of red light comes from then? It does seem to help with yoga. But there must be several levels of the astral then - with the BK white, golden, and red light regions being at the spiritual end of the spectrum - from my own experiences, i do not believe you will find any "dangers" or "malign entities" in these subtle regions, whereas i agree that they are to be found elsewhere in the astral... (though wherever you are, if you are with God there is no danger).
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
Karma or "actions" is such that.... If the results of doing positive karma do not occur, though you performed positive karmic actions, then you won't lose much now by doing those positive actions. If the result of positive karma does exist (i.e. get the fruits), but you performed negative karma, then you would ultimately lose out. Exactly when and where is up for grabs. [Similarly, if God does not exist, but you believed in Him, you don't lose much. But if God does exist, but you didn't believe in Him, well you just might lose out a lot. Again, you'll probably know after you leave your body...]
Quote:
We cannot be both karmateet at the start of the cycle, and also fully charged up with a store of karmic "treasure" which will last us through the cycle. If there is a 'treasure store' mechanism, then surely it must be unrelated to karma?... i can't see how we can 'buy' the original degree of purity of the soul, through our thoughts and actions now (or any other time).
I agree. Everything is fine for 2500 years, then everything goes downhill ?! How karma and the cycle are linked I don't know. How does the first drop of negative karma even occur (i.e. how degradation begins) if everything and everyone in the Golden Age was/is perfect. If the cycle is just a piece of world drama, where the main actor (i.e BB soul) makes the first error/vice and that propagates down the line. How vices/Ravan enters BB soul is questionable and for what reason. The BKs propound that everything goes from new to old, sato to tamo, pure to degradeable etc, and this is the Law of Nature. And thus karma is also part of the Law of Nature. And it will be The Laws of Nature (destruction - earthquakes, etc) that will remove all the tons of sorrow that has since accumulated, so everything can begin afresh again. But why wait for 2500 years after the GA/SA, why not 1 year, and let the cycle be 2501 years long. Watching a drama where there is increasing suffering for a long time must be a turnoff.
jamesy Joined: 09 Oct 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
'What causes the reactions though, that is interesting? Is there a " sticky glue " on one level that holds the universe together working out ways to deliver back its blows? I don't know. In the mechanical world where Newton first drew out his third Law of Motion there are very clear material connections between the action and the immediate reaction. I am not sure they work on a " karmic level ". I am not even sure that there is a " karmic level ", e.g. if you slap a child hard and they fall over, your hand hurts, you must move it back and they get up. That is full of action and reactionary forces. But Newton would not extrapolate that you now have to hang around to be reborn as a child to be whacked.'
Thanks Ex-l, good stuff. Infact it's clear that Newton's 3'rd law is not at all an appropriate parallel, as you make quite plain -the bk's law of karma has that extra element of apparently undetermined time delay between action and reaction. I've recently spent time with a leftfield psychologist acquaintance who's spent many years working within the prison service. He reckons that the idea of karmic retribution is something that was advocated as strongly by the ancient Greeks as it was by the Hindus and as such is as deeply ingrained in the cultural subconscious of the West as it is in the East. In his opinion that the key to whether a prisoner will re-offend is not how quickly they qualify for remand, but whether on release they have acquitted themselves of guilt. If they have not, then they are likely to get drawn back into further retribution and subsequently further offending. His angle is that many do seem to be stuck in such a repetitive cycle that at first glance lends credence to the concept of karmic retribution. However for those who appear to break out of this karmic rut, it is in many instances not because they have paid their dues by having their freedom curtailed for an appropriate amount of time, but because they have truly accepted responsibility for those actions and therefore have nothing further to learn from revisiting the same sort of karmas that led to prison in the first place. In other words rather than a simple law of action and equal and opposite reaction having to operate in unison with an enormously complex records of accounts because of an arbitrary time delay, karma can be seen as a learning tool which if we don't learn the lesson keeps revisiting us under similar circumstances till we're ready!
Display posts from previous:
| XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions | All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3
| You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group