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catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: Reincarnation |
I have noticed several remarks about the karmic effects of past lives on the present. I have noticed that when past lives are discussed that the person seems always to be recalling what would now be at least a working class existence, and more commonly that of nobility or aristocracy. Yet, throughout history, the majority of people have been in what could best be described as underclass--slaves, serfs, peasants, untouchables. I have never seen a description of such an experience used to justify working to improve the lot of the underclass, but rather only to tell them of the possible karmic rewards in the next life--i.e. to justify inequity. Could someone explain that to me? _________________ Catlady
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: Reincarnation |
I have long felt that religion/spirituality should be used as a force for social change. I support the concept of "liberation theology". I feel that the basis for this is Jesus' statement, "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." I explain this so that you will understand the reason that I have asked the question. _________________ Catlady
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
I have long felt that religion/spirituality should be used as a force for social change.
But that has never been the reason for its existance. It's a controlemechanism for societies. At a personal level we all have certain beliefs, but when they get institutionalised, it's something completely different: it becomes a tool to gain power. That's why I am against any organisational steps -- it's future path will always go against the initial and original meaning of whatever (for example jesus' teachings, etc).
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject: Reincarnation |
Kevin, I do think you are right about institutions. I do not participate in any institutional religion, nor have I for most of my adult life, though I have done much reading and exploration of philosophies and theologies. (I use the plural since I feel that many have value.) I do feel a need to have a personal philosophy of living, and to raise children with such a philosophy. _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: |
I think that's a good attitude, as long as we realise the relative value of them. Somehow, one shouldn't have too much attachment with his beliefs ... I think there's nothing more difficult than that, but it's worth it. It prevents from narrowing down your vision which is already limited in its own respect.
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: Reincarnation |
I have developed more a personal philosophy of life than attachment to any other belief system. I see problems with most of them, and I, too think that organized religions are ways of controlling people. I think that, to some degree, this is necessary to establish norms of behavior for life in a society, but often is taken to preserving a status quo of a power structure and dominant group at the expense of others. _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
I have developed more a personal philosophy of life than attachment to any other belief system.
I was actually talking about your personal philosophy of life. I think that like no other, it can deprive you from gaining new experiences, insights, etc ... at least, that's my experience. It's a constant struggle between your need for wanting more understanding and your own prejuges and beliefs (that can be very fundamental!) ... letting go of them seems so wrong, yet time and time again, it has proven for me to be worth it!
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: Reincarnation |
I think it may depend on what your philosophy is. I agree that any rigidity and many absolutes in ideology may need to be changed, though I do feel that there are some universal ideas, that seem appropriate--such as treat others as you would like to be treated, which can then be expanded with various details depending on the situation, all life has value, etc. My own ideas also tend to evolve, though have really become quite general and universal. I do think that one must question any predjudices, or example of rigid thought, and question them. I think through the ongoing process of questioning, one can grow. _________________ Catlady
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: Reincarnation |
We got off the original subject. Why do religions which believe in reincarnation tend to use it to justify inequities in the present life?? _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
Dear Sister Catlady, Omshanti. The reason for using reincarnation to justify the inequities in the present life lies in the Karma philosophy. This Karma philosophy is based on the proverb, "as you sow, so shall you reap". The BKs or PBKs also believe in the Karma philosophy. We believe that all the souls in this large drama of 5000 years are actors performing actions as per their roles. The souls keep changing their body-like costume (i.e. take rebirth) in this large drama. They may take 1 to 84 births depending on their roles. Since the number of actors is mind boggling, it is not possible that results/fruits/punishments for the actions performed by an actor-like soul are reaped in the same birth. Sometimes the fruits/punishments for the actions performed in one birth may be reaped in the next birth, or in the next to next birth. BKs or PBKs believe that all the sinful actions (karmic accounts) performed in the last 63 births in Copper Age and Iron Age, that remain unaccounted for in the last, i.e. 84th birth will be cleared in the 84th birth itself, either through meditation or through various kinds of punishments. The non-bk religions of the East, believe in reincarnation and karma philosophy, but do not believe in the theory of world drama cycle of 5000 years. With regards, Arjuna
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: reincarnation |
Arjuna wrote:
Quote:
The reason for using reincarnation to justify the inequities in the present life lies in the Karma philosophy. This Karma philosophy is based on the proverb, "as you sow, so shall you reap".
So the explanation is the suffering was punishment for behavior in a previous life? But why have I never heard anyone talk about a previous life in the underclass, have they not now earned rewards? Also, the numbers of the underclass vs. upper classes suggest that, if one believes that life in the underclass is punishment for past lives, those at the top must be truly evil, taking multiple lives to pay back for their sins. _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
Dear sister, Omshanti. I can explain my above statement with the help of an example. In the past (prior to India gaining independence in 1947), the Indian society (especially the Hindu society) was very deeply divided into various classes, mainly the Brahmins (who read and taught scriptures and were incharge of the administration, accounts, religion, education etc.) the Kshatriyas (the rulers and protectors, warriors) the Vaishyas (the business and trading community and the land owning farmers) and the Shudras (considered at that time to be untouchables, consisting of people attending to menial jobs like cleaning, scavenging, attending to funeral work, cobblers, landless labourers etc.). The first three castes (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas) were considered to be forward or higher castes and the Shudras were considered to be the lowest caste or untouchables. The Shudras were denied entry into the houses of upper caste people, and the temples etc. They were not even allowed to draw water from the well used by the upper caste people to fetch water. You can imagine the plight of those souls who took birth in those castes at that time. They were denied eerything from justice, comforts, religious freedom, higher jobs. But the modern education by British rulers, the united freedom struggle of India, the social reforms, freedom from the British colonialism and the adoption of Indian Constitution led to the well being of this earlier oppressed class of India. Untouchability was totally banned, although it is still practiced in many areas of India unofficially even today. The oppressed classes were given reservation in education, jobs, promotions and in various other Govt. schemes. Due to all these measures, many among the formerly oppressed classes have reached higher positions in the Government, become rich and are governing the higher or forward classes in many places. Today the situation is such that at many places the persons of forward classes complain of oppression by the formerly backward classes (who have reached the higher echeleons of power). There is a provision in the Government offices that an official from the formerly oppressed classes ranked much below his colleague in seniority will get promotion before his senior colleagues who might have topped in the same exam through which both of them were recruited. The merit category is also relaxed for the candidates from the backward communities in the case of admission to educational institutions or Government jobs. Although there are deserving candidates in the forward classes but they do not get admission to educational institutions or jobs just because the seats are reserved for the backward communities. Although the souls taking birth in the forward classes in the present generation have not performed any sins in this birth but have to suffer for the sins that they have committed in the previous births. So here is a situation where the souls of the oppressed classes have reached a position where they can rule over the souls of the so-called forward communities. So this is how the karmic accounts of souls of the higher and lower classes are being settled. With regards, Arjuna
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: reincarnation |
Arjuna, What you are saying is quite a recent phenomenon, like Affirmative Action in the US. But the history of the oppression is far longer. And the ratio of those who are oppressed to the oppressors is and has always been quite high. So that is why I ask the question. To me, reincarnation seems to be simply a way to justify inequities so the oppressed groups, if they have the same beliefs, will not rise up in revolution. Catlady _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
Dear sister Catlady, Omshanti. I respect your concern for the downtrodden and the oppressed of the world. God also gives importance to the poor people only - poor from the point of view of money as well as knowledge. There are umpteen murli points in which Baba has said that He is gareebnivaaz, i.e. helper of the poor. He says that even a rupee or a brick of a poor is equal to a much larger amount contributed by a rich person. There has been mention in the murlis about Brahma Baba hugging a female scavenger (bhangini). Only when the BKs diverted from this philosophy and act of God after the demise of Brahma Baba that Shivbaba also had to shift his base to give the poor of the world as well as those poor in knowlegde (householders) in the BKs world. with regards, Arjuna
bkmprasanna Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1 Location: hyderabad |
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: human life cycle 5000 years!!!??? |
dear arjun, omshanthi, l am prasanna from hyderabad. i was bk for 1 & half year.. & i am in the transition phase ie bk to xbk... the reason is my intalluctual is not ready to accept the human cycle is 5000 year can you give me more info on this topic..because other than this i accept all what baba saying!! ie art of leaving,values ..etc. thanks & regds, prasanna
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