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Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:55 am Post subject: |
gyaniwasi wrote:
When I decided to leave I had an exit interview.
gyaniwasi, You too have me curious. Can you tell us, perhaps in a separate thread ("My exit interview"?) either in this or the XBKs only forum: (1) What were the internal processes and external events that preceded / precipitated your decision to leave? (2) Was there a 'last straw on the camel's back'...a tipping point? (3) Without revealing the name of the interviewer, some details of the interview? How did it go? What sort of questions were asked, and what answers you gave? How were your answers received? I make this request not simply out of perverse inquisitiveness (though I admit that there may be element of it) but because I think that a post from you on this topic could be of immense benefit to others. Atma
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:07 pm Post subject: |
I hear you Atma Not that it was earth shaking - far from it. It was quite amicable even though I was deeply disappointed with the state of things. You may say that at the time of exit I did not have the chutzpah to fully express my feelings. There were two main reasons for this: one was my abiding respect for the sister-in-charge as God's direct instrument and second was my own awareness of the fact that I had ended my celebacy while on an extended visit to a far east country. [I must return to that episode one day]. I had accepted my "fallen status" but was not crest-fallen in spirit (it was a wonderful affair; maybe I should take a leaf from Hanuman's book and give you the romantic details eh? ) As such, I guess I did not consider myself worthy enough to argue with God who was running the centres (by his own declaration). Such was my frame of mind. Under those circumstances, I simply told the sisters that I had had an affair during my stay in the far east and that I felt the need to live a family life. As such, I told them I'd be leaving the centre (I was a centreniwasi, the most senior of four pandavs living in an annex). They bade me farewell with best wishes and the Senior Sister-in-Charge gave me some parting advice as regards marriage. She said Baba used to tell them that marriage is like Ladu: you never quite know how it will turn out until after you make and taste it. When I got married a couple years later the sister-in-charge sent me a gift of a Lakshmi/Narayan locket. I did not find my soul mate but I have a wonderful wife with whom I have shared over 17 years of marriage. Over the years she has watched me suffer in estrangement from God, watched me weep in anguish, unable to communicate or meditate. It was only recently that I was able to fulfill one of her longstanding wishes to teach her to meditate. I used a method I had learnt before gyan and she had a wonderful experience. She is a Christian of strong faith who believes in prayer and through whom, time and again, I've seen demonstrations of Faith at work. Now her spiritual life has been enriched with the added blessings of a meditation that gives her that sweet silence and profound peace we used to know coupled with a joy of "experiencing God on his throne of Light" etc. It's the best gift I've been able to give her is all our years of friendship - and I'm thankful to God for that. I should mention though, Atma, that over the years after I'd left I was from time to time chastised by another brother (not a centreniwasi) for being too soft on the sisters. The things he did and what he told them would have been unthinkable for me to do. On one occasion, for instance, Dadi Janki visited the centre and asked for all the old brothers whom she used to meet in years gone by - like "where have all the flowers gone"... you know. Well, this brother sought an interview with Dadi after class and got another brother who was from India to translate every word he said. Dadi called the Senior Sister-in-Charge to sit next to her and the brother waded into the senior sister and the whole system at the centre. Dadi, he said, was visibly shaken as he urged the somewhat hesitant Indian brother to translate exactly what he was saying. He described her hands slapping the chair arm repeatedly as she turned to the Senior Sister and severely reprimanded her. The sister shed tears. That brother never visited Madhuban, never once met Baba but rather sent his wife who was in charge of a subcentre. He has chutzpah. When the Senior Sister accused him of trying to "break up the divine family" by being defiant and contentious over various issues, his reply was "Well Sister, I must be greater than Baba if I can destroy what he is creating" On the question of the real issues that wore me down, it was basically the discrepancy in the power structure and hierachy between Madhuban and the Centre Administration being in conflict with my faith that God was in charge. This was no bhakti church administration for me; it was supposed to be God's business and he was said to be in charge through the "Gadi sitter" . Consider this in light of the fact that I had written my letter of full surrender years before and there had been a public ceremony of consecration for Pandav Bhawan and the brothers who lived there. I had sacrificed my lokik career for that life, turned down offers to pursue further studies because that was supposed to be worth "peanuts" compared to the venerable life of Godly service before me. I swallowed it hook, line and sinker. You'd have to experience that centre life to fully understand its depth Atma. I am thankful that I did not take its disappointments the way Eugene's friend or Wally did. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject: |
dear gyaniwasi, my deepest respects to you my friend. your sharing provokes so many deeply buried feelings. how strange it is now that these things are seeing the light of day. your courage and nobility both then and now are gigantic and you make me proud to have been associated with people such as you. i will respond in the future to the many issues your posting raises but above all right now i just want to say namaste brother. eugene
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
I'm touched by your kind sentiments Eugene. Those were warm evenings of satsang spent with you, your parents and others. Take care my brother. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
viswa Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 4 |
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: |
and second was my own awareness of the fact that I had ended my celebacy while on an extended visit to a far east country. [I must return to that episode one day]. Please do return to the episode soon!!!
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: |
eromain wrote:
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So I think that ‘his’ incorporeal nature is irrelevent for my rather practical purposes, though I agree that spiritually and ideologically and ethically it is impossible to extricate him from some shared responsibility for what goes on in 'his' name.
Eugene, I believe the extract above encapsulates your 'position' and is the gist of your response to me, on the child abuse issue. I concede the point. Although unarticulated, there were other concerns in my mind at the time I wrote what you responded to. Let me see if I can express them now. You wrote:
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I cannot re-iterate enough that I see this thread as no more mine than anybody else’s.
I appreciate the generousity of spirit conveyed by that statement. Still, it is a fact that: (1) This child abuse topic was started by you (2) To date, it is the only topic you have contributed to, and (3) It's been about three months since you joined. Now, I do not wish to be seen as "descending to the personal". God knows my heart, and he / she / it? knows that my motives are pure. Given your prior remarks, in which you welcomed critical comments, I feel some lattitude to push the envelope a bit. I must confess to a little worry that this issue - important as it is - is 'filling your screen' to the exclusion of all else. Your BK critics may say that it is an obsession or fixation, and that you are waging a crusade or vendetta. To that, I would say: "I vehemently disagree. The man is raising an important issue and he has every right to express himself and to try to improve things." Still, I have pondered a bit as to why it may appear as a fixity. I can only speculate. In the 'bio data' (don't we still love those Indianisms? ) that preceded your 'Report', you mentioned your very early induction into the BK world, via your parents I believe. The abuse you address in your 'Report' is what was done to others, and is primarily, or at least most dramatically, of the (lets just say) 'unsavoury physical type'. Extremely damaging indeed. I feel prompted to ask, and I hope you don't mind that I do: Do you personally feel that your early indocrination and immersion in the BK lifestyle was abuse? I ask this as a very open question, having no idea at all about how you perceive it. Among the members here, you are probably unique in the tender age you came to RY. Perhaps it may be more accurate to say "the tender age RY came to you." If the answer is yes - and that would be understandable - is there bottled up anger as a result? I hope that you don't feel that addressing the myriad other BK related issues would somehow detract from or dilute your child abuse focus and campaign. I don't believe that it will. In fact, it would show that - in spite of everything - you are moving to a position of being a rounded (not fat !!! ) individual. Someone said "Living well is the best revenge." I therefore urge you to 'broaden out a bit'. Why not try your hand at the many other topics in the various fora here? If you do, I think that: (1) It would be good for you (2) It would be good for the other members (3) It would be good for the site With highest regards, and every good wish, Paul P.S. Eugene, I have an unusual request. How about holding off a bit on your response to this? I invite other members to first comment on my post. If they do so before you respond, their posts would be uninfluenced by your reply. It's your call, of course, but perhaps you too may see the value in getting some 'uncoloured' reactions.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
Paul: It's always nice to know a little more about each other but I guess in cyberspace we might each have our reservations even though the medium is sort of impersonal. Now and then we get a glimpse of other facets of each other's personality. Hanuman has certainly revealed a lot of himself and that level of openness is much appreciated. I shared a bit more of myself in response to Atma's request, and I don't mind doing this in order to contribute to a common fund of emotional support - as he requested. I guess it will vary according to how we learn to trust, and we must remember that we may have different personalities. I'm a naturally reserved person; Hanuman seems to be more engaging and effusive, Kevin seems quick witted and candid; Isabel and Kyra seem somewhat shy and retiring but very warm and friendly; B.K. Pari is full of alacrity and quite "serviceable" in BK terms - and I can go on but these are just a few impressions. What is important on this site, I think, is a willingness to open up since this, I believe, will lead to healing and authenticity. This site has enabled me to elicit from myself what I could not have done on my own and I am thankful for that and to all of you for the interactions. But Paul, where are you in all this? After some 27 posts we hardly know you too! _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: |
Your post elicits two reactions from me, Paul. On the one hand I admire your directness - it's refreshing and easy to be around people who say what they think. I also find Eugene and all the other XBKs to be thoughtful, intelligent, interesting people that I would like to know more about. I therefore welcome the urgings I'm seeing here for people to reveal more about themselves. On the other hand I feel that Eugene should reveal what he wishes to reveal in his own time. He's placed himself in a more vulnerable position than the rest of us - the B.K.s know who he is. Revealing more about himself in the forum while he's under fire carries large risks. My advice to him would be to come back to the forum under a different handle so that he can share anonymously with us. Regarding my 'retiring' personality - I do want to apologize to everyone for being a spotty poster - getting wonderful responses from you all and then disappearing into thin air. I'm a professor early on in my career. Waves of work wash over me and when I finally emerge from a series of back to back 60 hour weeks I often find that months have gone by. Participating in this forum has been so rewarding to me that I will often stay up until midnight writing - despite the twelve hour work day that lies ahead of me. So know that I'm probably out there somewhere reading your contributions, itching to respond and just waiting for the day that I'm enough hours ahead of all my deadlines that I can get back to you. With gratitude -Isabel
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:42 am Post subject: |
Wonderful Isabel! May I ask what is your discipline? Just curious. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:10 am Post subject: |
I'm an urbanist/demographer. I landed on the quantitative side of the fence because a more theoretical approach would have conflicted too much with gyan. Means and measures of dispersion don't contradict notions of absolute truth My interests at heart are more moral and philosophical than mathematical however. How about you, Gyaniwasi? The language in your posts reveals an epistemological awareness that gives off the air of someone who teaches classes in the philosophy of their discipline. Do I err?
eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: reply to gyaniwasi from 1st aug |
Hi gyaniwasi, This is my reply to your posting of aug 1st. Since then there have been many issues you and others have brought up which I would like to contribute to, but I’ve been trying to finish this one for ages and have felt myself lagging behind the conversation so to speak. First of all a great big thanks for the time and care you have given this subject. And for myself I am extremely grateful as I need the feedback of people such as you to help me in recognising my mistakes and where my next area of work lies. I am mindful that what I write here can be construed as part of my child protection work even if I do not necesssarily intend it as such. Therefore you’ll have to be patient with me if I keep myself out of areas of valid exploration because of political expediancy. Personally I may agree with a conclusion you or others draw about my report but I do feel a requirement upon myself to keep out certain categories of personal opinions from what I commit to the record at this point. So I acknowledge that I am less than fully candid and this limits the scope of my participation in this forum, and consequently our conversation fails to go into many areas for which this wonderful chatsite is perfectly suited. I apologise for that., but urge all of the great particpants on this thread to be vigorous and unfettered in all of your contributions. Just because it is impolitic of me to say something, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said. Indeed that is probably another argument as to why it should. On a lighter note on re-reading this reply to you (and my recent one to Paul) I note that I have completely overdone it on some of the subjects we have been discussing. Oh well, I cannot contemplate editing it all again, so I’m afraid you are all lumbered with it. If you think I am an overblown windbag, I would have to agree with you. I also apologise for the delay in replying – the conversation has moved on to several extremely important and interesting subjects and I do not wish to drag it backwards. Ok lets let the winds blow
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If we consider this in conjunction with the basic psychological and cultural thrust of the organization (during its pre-revisionist phase) to convert its adherents to ‘Baba’s obedient children’ then we are faced with the weighty issue of responsibility for profound psychological programming in cults and the consequences listed by you as mentioned above
Yes and this is the crux of the matter. The issue goes way beyond sexual molestation. For every child molested by a paedophile there are many children and adults who after a period of immersion in raja yoga are now exhibiting noteworthy post cult challenges. That these might be caused inadvertantly is one thing, but that they might continue to be caused by an organisation determined not to even listen to the complaints of its former members is a great shame and is worrying for those who care about Raja Yoga. It is the difference between administering a harmful drug in ignorance initially, and then continuing to do so when you now have knowledge of its harmful effects.
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In all this I still maintain that the responsibility will ultimately lead to the originator of the BK system since, unlike the God of other religions, he is here to answer for himself on his edicts. No amount of shifting of blame from the transcendental to the earthly plane can entirely free him of involvement when he has said that he is in charge of the centres through his instruments. When a Government is found to be corrupt then the Prime Minister resigns, and if the PM himself orders an investigation and it is not properly conducted leaving his government’s credibility at stake then where should the people place their vote of confidence?
I agree that to claim control logically implicates oneself as being responsible and it would appear that anyone who agrees with the claimant’s claim should hold him responsible and anyone who disagrees with the claimants claim could not hold him responsible. (Just because someone confesses to a crime that doesn’t mean he did it. And if ‘he’ is mistaken or deluded about being God he is probably mistaken about his power over the day to day events in all his centres. ) So I suppose then that Raja Yogis (who don’t so much agree with the claim as find themselves under an obligation to accept it) could be expected to have their preconceptions about the nature of God challenged by disclosures about events they presumed impossible under his protection. And I suppose that someone who strongly dis-believes the claim would paradoxically not have any kind of theological work to do. But for me wearing my hat as the author of the report in question I believe I must not place myself in either of these camps. My modus operandi is that I do not and indeed cannot know if there is a super-human hand in the running of the bk organisation therefore I cannot lay ultimate blame at it in a report which is both public and also about something not directly related to such. I must be as precise as the situation permits and as vague as the information demands. So all I can do is blame a catch-all collective leadership. As I have not been invited in to assess the inner workings of the organisation I would feel it beyond my remit to lay blame on this or that particular component of the administration, simply because I have no suitable data. If you are standing outside a building you cannot know what is going on up in the boardroom. As an outsider I could only lay blame at the organisation as a whole, or the ‘leadership’ as a whole. Of course organisations do sometimes invite consultants in to help them systems analyse the inter dynamics of a management team that has a problem and to identify the primary causes. But here obviously my input into the BK deficiencies is uninvited and unwelcome so I do not have the quality of access to lay the specific blame for specific faults at specific doors. Now, my position is that definitely the leadership whoever they really are must take responsibility, and logically that would include whoever the real leadership is if that is different from the official leadership. But from my vantage point I am simply not in a position to state that Dadi X, should take the blame for this and Dadi Y should take the blame for that, and the visiting entity called ‘bapdada’ (the artist formally known as God ) must take the blame for such and such. I realise I am labouring this point but I think it better to see my lack of a specific attack upon the ‘God’ of Raja Yoga not so much as an attempt to divert blame elsewhere but rather as a result of my opinion that such specific blaming would be the wrong type of conclusion to this mode of inquiry.
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This leads me to the question of accountability under Clause 4 of Dealing with Possible Abuse (p.80). This clause can nullify any potential complaint in relation clauses C and E of Forms of Abuse since that clause distinguishes between ‘poor teaching practice’ and ‘abuse’. The question therefore arises: can the officially appointed (presumably non-BK) Children’s Officer monitor teaching interactions to distinguish between ‘poor teaching’ and ‘child abuse’? If so, how can that system be implemented practically when – according to the experiences and perceptions contained in your report - the very teachings of the organization can be construed in terms of child abuse?
Yes I agree. I read it slightly differently in that I assumed that the Children’s Officer was a Bk, but the problem you point out remains.
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the Indian CPP unambiguously places the responsibility with ‘the institution’s officer-in-charge’. This begs the question: should an institution accused of a misdemeanor be its own investigator? In view of the incidents alluded to in your report and the very cause of the report one must confess that this is indeed inadequate.
Yes one of my recommendations that I will be making in due course will be about the whole subject of investigatory procedures in the case of complaints. The current system is orwellian in its thinking. Essentially to complain is proof that one is unqualified to make a complaint.
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Now I’d like to look at some of T’s comments in his retrospection but before commenting on this I think you’d do us a great service if you encourage his participation on this site. He seems sufficiently mature to deal with the kind of ‘sg13’ remarks you wish to protect others from. This forum, from what I understand, was also set up for people like T and others who might have suffered abuse. Granted that we do not have professional advice (no doctor-in-the-house) it is a general experience that talking helps. It matters to have a support group that can empathize. So it might be useful to reconsider your position.
Yes I am hopeful on that front too.
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This makes clearer the point I raised about why, given its declaration of Authority the organization would be very reluctant to comply with your wishes. I had used the expression ‘by what measure of reasoning’ in an idiomatic sense but I see that you have wisely (and correctly) taken it seriously. Indeed, it is the axis upon which your whole position turns since it is definitely pivoted outside of the circle of BK beliefs (and yet I find it strange that you choose to avoid any discourse on their doctrine when that is so germane to your issue.) Your choice of using elementary logic “that ‘God’ agrees with me is a tool I will use to beat those who drag their feet etc” is quite relevant to an outsider but from their point of view you are outside of the privileged circle who ‘know God’ and therefore the interpretation of that agreement becomes ‘their prerogative.’ No ‘outsider’ can interpret God’s wishes for them! Why, that is ludicrous! Hence, it becomes normal or a matter of course that the organization should reserve the right to investigate and discipline itself.
yes I completely agree and my status in their eyes damns not only me but whatever ideas I am promoting. If a shudra wants it, it must be bad. Which is doubly ironic because as I say their ‘God’ has been agreeing with me and that seems to me at least to suddenly have made child protection part of shrimat.
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Quote: I believe that Raj Yoga is ultimately trying not to be a religion in which people mindlessly obey God but I beg to differ there. RY is not a "come let us reason" religion; it is a "follow father/follow shrimat" religion which is epitomised by the anecdote I quoted in another post: on the question of Faith, Kumarka Dadi said "If Baba asked me to walk into the ocean I will do so without questioning".
Yes, and although you are disagreeing with me I simultaneously agree with you which I suppose means that I hope Raja Yoga is trying to be both –a path of faith and a path of knowledge, though its different threads don’t talk to each other much. If it was a person it would have multiple personality disorder To the extent it is succeeding or failing in either (or both) of these paths is probably a matter of opinion. But I feel an obligation in dealing with it, to take a positive posture towards it to the extent that it is trying. On reflection your position is more realistic than mine, but mine I think might be a better modus operandi in which to dialogue with them. The dialogue isnt going very harmoniously but it would be even worse if my approach was that they are essentially bigoted fanatics. The revisionism, the hypocrisy, the re-writing of history all of these things are unmistakeable to anyone who knows Raja Yoga from the seventies and eighties when it first turned up in the west. Do I think it is dishonest? Hell yes. And in negating, denying, distorting and evading what really happened then I feel as if they are negating, denying, distorting and evading me. Who I was and who I am now. And when I’m vulnerable to that thought I find it painful. I feel that these people allowed me to think they were doing one thing, only to discover years later that they were doing something else.
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I fear, Eugene, that the God you see placed above scrutiny and to whom you feel the BKs should 'in all good conscience' be accountable to is not the same God they are associated with.
As to the main thrust of this sentence my response is probably highly predictable to you at this point: you may well be right but it would be unethical to say that in my report and it would not be pragmatic, so I’ll let you say it and you can note that I haven’t disagreed. (On a minor point I am not sure where I have said that they should be accountable to God. The kantian stuff is my code and I’m not advocating it to them as such, and anyway it specifically replaces divine accountability with personal conscience. Another way of putting it is that kant contends that to follow ones conscience in the ways he specifies is itself a divine thing regardless of what a transendental deity might have to say about your actions.) As to the idea that I have placed their god above scrutiny my position is as above: I do not know who is really running Raja Yoga –whether it is the seniors or whether it is the entity referred to as Bapdada who they believe takes over Dadi Kulzar’s body. Neither do I know if this entity is ‘God’. I don’t see how that puts their God above scrutiny. I think it is saying that I do not have the proper vantage point to achieve such scrutiny. But it does not place the buck elsewhere. Certainly whoever is running things has yet to satisfy me that they are doing their job properly. And I heartily wish they would consider themselves scrutinized. And logically if one of them is ‘God’ then he should also. Whether such a supposed failure on their part means others who are not in ‘child protection report writing mode’ must conclude it is not ‘God’, or whether we must wonder if ‘God’ makes mistakes or pretends to etc I have no idea. For some people I am attacking God, for others I am not attacking him enough But to the extent you are outlining dichotomies and contradictions both in me and in different strands of the institution I agree. It is a very messed up situation. But that is where the great lessons sometimes are. Perhaps if Raja Yoga was mature and intelligent enough as a culture to recognise and accept some of its contradictions it would cause less work for those who decide to leave it.
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In closing then, I'd like to return to some issues you have deliberately avoided because you see no relevance of it to your immediate concern. You say Quote: I do not know the details of the consultation process with the entity they believe takes charge of Dadi Kulzar’s body and who they believe is God. Whether that person is in effective charge and whether that person is God is beyond the remit of my report. Yet, herein lies the crux of the matter: whether or not that personage is the Universal God reflected in Kant's moral imperatives will determine what kind of response you get –
I can concieve of it truly being God and Him telling me to take a hike, and equally I can concieve of ‘Him’ telling me I am absolutely correct. Equally I can imagine the same two responses from a being who is not God. The fact is my conception of God is very woolly and very under-exercised these days. So no I don’t agree that whether its truly God or not will dictate the type of response I get. In asserting such I would contend that you are presupposing that you know how God would behave in that situation. I am sure that that is one of the many things I do not know. I do believe however the determining factor will be whether that person/being whatever considers child protection important and necessary to the point that they are not impeded by the ideological crisis taking such a new direction would entail. And that incidently would be a very good example of a categorical imperative. Instituting a serious child protection policy has many very unattractive implications for Raja Yoga and these downsides outweigh all the hypothetical imperatives such as legal protection, public relations etc. The only people who are going to go for it are those people who say that it must be done whatever the cost. Simple morality requires me to stop causing harm to others as soon as I recognise that I am doing such. I believe that I have proven to every Raja Yogi who read my report that some of its current practices are causing harm. Now lets see if all that meditating truly leads to moral development. I for one hope it does.
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You say: Quote: It is not for me to decide how Raja Yogis account metaphysically and dogmatically for these mistakes. I am now external to that religion and I do not see how me taking a religious stance advances my cause. Indeed throwing my beliefs into the mix will waste further time and will distract further from the practical requirement to institute child protection. I don’t see how any possible answers to the many metaphysical and theological questions that might offer themselves to this problem make any difference to the proven need for adequate child protection. Your whole report seems to contradict this position. You have expressed dismay and disgust at any doctrinal allusions to karmas
I don’t agree that my report contradicts this position. I don’t think anyone reading the report will find a metaphysical, theological or religious statement in there. I don’t think that anyone can say with any real confidence what my beliefs are on the basis of that report. My dismay and disgust at various bks references to karma was not dismay and disgust at their beliefs about karma but the way they used those beliefs in their bad treatment of others. For me it is everybody’s right to believe what they like, but it not necessarily their right to allow those beliefs to dictate how they treat others. I also believe I intimated that I did not agree with them when they seem to think they were expressing raja yoga beliefs when they expressed such. I actually believe that the most ideal Raja Yogi I can imagine would love my report and every single page on it. If Brahma Baba was half the man they say he was I think he would have seen both its intent and its content and loved them both.
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and your reference to Kant is an indication of where your own values may be rooted. It is not a substitution of religious values that is needed but a basic position from which you evaluate and assess the position of the organization on this matter. You have already done so. It is the means by which you have come to publish the report. If you had not already questioned their fundamental authority then you would have been in the same position like those who would meditate the matter away.
Not sure I understand you here so here’s my response and you can get back to me. I have questioned their authority as people who are looking after children simply because they have demonstrated that sometimes they are quite poor at it. I have no desire to question their religious authority because it is their right to believe whatever they like. If someone believes they are talking to God who the hell am I to say otherwise?? But like the karma issue I don’t agree that that necessarily give them the right to treat others in any way that they think God has told them to. But it is everybodies right to believe whatever they like and I am extremely respectful of Raja Yogis beliefs and of their right to believe them. That my report undermines, threatens or in anyway diminishes their beliefs is something I strongly disagree with. Clearly the report is not written from a Raja Yoga perspective, but the very act of writing about Raja Yoga from a non Raja Yoga perspective says absolutely nothing about either my religious beliefs or my attitude to Raja Yoga religious beliefs.
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Furthermore, addressing those issues would remove the veil of infallibility and would disillusion potential victims because of the nature and power of indoctrination and authoritarian control inherent in the movement.
I cant help wondering if you want me to put in a paragraph at the end of my report saying ‘…. And therefore it’s all nonsense, it cant be God and these people are just plain wrong’  Given that the ‘veil of infallibility’ contributes to an atmosphere in which abuse is allowed to flourish I am no great supporter of it but I doubt that me attacking the religious dogma would make a blind bit of difference. And as I say I don’t think I have the obligation nor the right. It is not political posturing when I say that I genuinely respect Raja Yoga as a religion –that is to say I respect people’s right to believe it and I feel I would be misusing the information I have on its poor child protection record if I were to use that to attack it’s theology. And I don’t believe that anything I have said or written or thought is intrinsically contradictory to the core beliefs of Raja Yoga. Nevertheless, as I’ve said above, if I take off my current hat and put on my theological/religious one (if I can find it) I would certainly be capable of joining you in looking at these developments in the manifested aspect of the BK world and wondering what it says about the unmanifest. And in that mode of thinking I totally agree with you and the other members of this site who are saying that the child abuse revelations could be viewed as having theological implications.
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Hence the theological question seems inextricible from your central concern because fundamentalist BKs are totally immersed in a theology that blinds them to all else. You seem to forget that that was the requirement from the inception of the yagye. It is only now in these 'revisionist' days that we see some inclination to 'think outside the box' but the organization as a whole remains essentially fundamentalist. So to say that: Quote: I personally am not interested in the metaphysical ‘how’. I am not saying it is not an interesting or valid question. I am simply saying that I am not interested in it. seems a contradictory statement in light of your entire report.
Lol what can I say? You know it wouldn’t be the first contradiction I’ve been guilty of in all of this. Its kind of a contradictory thing to be this shudra trying to improve ‘God’s organisation’. I’m sure there is some parallel story in the vedas. But in the meantime I’ll let them work out some great theological justification for their child protection policies and then I’ll get you to go and give them hell about it. But seriously you’re going to have to specify again or in more detail what the contradiction is (if you don’t agree that it is actually caused by two different modes of inquiry as I claim above). My values do seem a bit weird when I look at them, but they are what they are. I care deeply about their child protection, but as far as child protection is concerned I don’t care whether it’s God or not running things. If in some unimaginable way someone could prove to me it was God I would be exactly the same, and equally if someone could prove it was not God that too would make no difference. And if I was still a Raja Yogi I would be exactly the same. That is the cool thing about some xbks. They walked away from God. Bks never get that, they just think its plain dumb, like pulling father christmas’ beard when he comes down the chimney instead of pretending to sleep like you think good children do so he’ll give you stuff . For me it’s the proudest thing in my life. So no I am not interested in the metaphysics. I don’t care who it is, abusing people is wrong. Even if God does it it is still wrong. best wishes eugene ps one final thought: It is perhaps an inability to switch modes of thought, (put on one hat for certain tasks, and then another for the next task) that has led the Bks organisation along a path of somewhat unbalanced development. For example in one mode god was working through me when I was a bk, in another mode I still always had to take responsibility for my actions. So mixing modes then, it could have been simultaneously true that God was speaking through me but I was talking rubbish. Until the BK teacher training gets its teachers confortable with such apparent paradoxes it will not, in my opinion, be training its teachers properly. It takes about 6 years to train a priest and comparatively speaking all he has to do is interpret the words of a dead prophet. A Raja Yoga teacher has a living god whispering in her ears, but she might have had only a few months experience before being allowed to go back to her home country and start a centre. And she isnt even allowed to discuss such issues with her zonal senior because it will probably sound like weakness or doubt and god forbid anyone might admit to those. The mixture of fervour and ill-preparedness is astonishing given the potency of some of the psychological technologies she is unwittingly playing with.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: Child Abuse In The BK |
Isabel, Congratulations on your entrance into academia. The world needs teachers like you. Stick with it. You will have time later for many of the good that life has to offer. Gyaniwasi, Your career in your technical field was stellar and your service to your country above and beyond the call of duty. I have always been fascinated by the manner in wich BK's downplay the talents of other BKs in a non-humanistic way. In spite of what the BKs say, a little bit of ego is good for the soul! I have learned that one should balance humility with pride. For me that pride can sometimes appear to be false to an audience. However, it is based on substance and not fluff or thin air. I hope, Gyaniwasi, that you are more fully recovered from your centerwasi experience. I once recalled that you remarked that you were able to over come the bitterness of some of the in fighting at that center. Were I living at that center, I would have been more drastic in my exit. In fact, I did live at that center for a few weeks. Many aspects of the living conditions were sub-standard. The brothers were treated like dirt or lepers. In one case a brother living at that center had a dental extraction and for many hours was suffering from excessive hemorrhage. No attention was given to him by any of the isiters in charge at the center. I personally took him to the emergency ward of the city hospital. The physician on duty sutured his open gum wounds and stopped the hemorrhage. I as a professional could not see myself in such a sub-standard environment. My professional life as a veterinarian would have been severely restricted. I know that one cannot have an unbalanced professional life and expected to have an OK spiritual life. Many fear the curse of the Sat Guru. I do not. I'll discuss that type of fear in another post. As far as revenge from the BK establishment, which is more realistic than a curse from SB, I am not afraid of that either. To all brothers and sisters, I wish you the BEST . xBKCHAT IS A YAGYA IN IT'S OWN RIGHT. Let us keep the fire burning. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
Hanuman, thanks for the encouragement. Time will have to tell whether or not I stick with it. Gyaniwasi, I just now saw your earlier post regarding the events that lead you to leave your former center.... thanks so much for sharing. To leave the B.K.s quite abruptly must have been difficult. I am heartened to hear though that they treated you kindly afterwards (despite all the other issues raised). It seems relationships are the main reason many people leave the brahma kumaris. At some point we should all explore this more.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:59 am Post subject: Child Abuse In The BK |
Isabel, You are welcomed. New faculty always have to negotiate a mine field and at the same time make the old guard feel that their positions are not in danger. You have hit the nail head on. RELATIONSHIPS! A big question is as follows: DO BK TEACHERS HAVE THE REQUIRED EXPERTISE TO DEAL WITH THE DYNAMICS OF HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS? I would say YES. However, the expertise in the lower strata of the organization has been abused. There is also a problem of those in the higher strata being unable to effectively implement gems of wisdom on human relationships. Are BK teachers trained to deal with the complex dynamics of human relations as they influence a RY student. It does not seem so. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:30 pm Post subject: |
Isabel commented:
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The language in your posts reveals an epistemological awareness that gives off the air of someone who teaches classes in the philosophy of their discipline. Do I err?
Teaching philosophy! No my dear. It is my natural inclination to be philosophical and this has probably been reinforced by my reading and academic training over the years. At 19, after leaving school, I was grappling with layreaders' editions of Kant and Plato and started reading Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, C.S.Lewis, Gibran and a miscellany of literature. A little later, at 20, friends at university introduced me to Herman Hesse and Ouspensky. I read as I felt the need to. I also joined a school of mysticism at that age. Then, after finding Raj Yoga at 22, I stopped reading literature outside of gyan for almost 10 years. I did not resume reading otherwise until 1985 when I made my exit. I'd savour the week-ends when I could go downtown Tokyo (where I made my exit) and browse and buy books again. It was a beautiful interlude. One of the first persons I started to read again was Herman Hesse - Steppenwolf, Siddhartha, The Glass Bead Game etc Academically, I hold three degrees in diverse subjects - a BSc. Agriculture, a B.A. English Literature and an M.A. English with a thesis on an aspect of my country's literature. One of my teachers at university was a very philosophical poet. From him I learnt more about closed and open systems of thinking, and that interaction developed my ability to rely on my inner resources instead of text books. He used to say "The goal of Education is independence of thought." Professionally,I have served my country in agriculture for 10 years, entered private enterprise in that field during which time my philosophical preoccupations led me read for degrees in literature. I've since shifted careers to teaching then business. So there, you now have an insight to my academic and spiritual background! Warm regards, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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