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Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: Do BKs cling on to those who leave? |
I did a Google search for XBKchat yesterday, just to see what would come up. There were lots or repetitive listings, but a few things of interest. One of those was a page from another forum. Apparently the page is no longer there. What was displayed is Google's "cache" of the page. Since I'm not a techie, I take it that "cache" means "stored in memory" or something like that. Here is the link for Google's cache of the page: http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:dO4hq87An3oJ:www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp%3Fm%3D79234+xbkchat&hl=en Reading that cached forum page, here are some of the things that struck me: * There are apparently different moderators for the various forums on the healtypages site. The cached Google page appeared under "Therapy forums", specifically in the "meditation" subforum. The administrator for that subforum goes by the name "Mike" and is from the UK. He wrote (at the time) that he has been practicing RY for 9 years. Kevin, do you know this dude? I know that you also were once co-admin of a BK forum. * Notice how smoothly he handles queries about BK meditation classes etc. It all seems so pleasant and innocuous In fact, the person who is asking the questions (SarahReflex) tells him he's a good salesman Now, surely, someone who has been around the BKs for 9 years would know the underbelly of the beast. But Mike says nada....the game goes on * Note too how skillfully he deflects and rationalise azalia' s comments about the "offputting and abrupt" attitude she got from a BK 'manager' on the phone. These guys sure know how to finesse things. * Now check out the last post on the cached page - the post by Moonstoneruby. Moonstoneruby only wrote three lines. The bulk of his / her post is actually a reproduction of an email he / she received. That email appears after the word "Thanks", fourth line from the top of the post. In that email, two mentions of xbkchat are flagged in yellow. Anyway, what struck me was the comment, towards the end of the email, about BKs persisting to contact those who have left, in an effort to reel them in back no doubt. Reminds me of those characters on Star Wars called Klingons. I'd be interested to hear similar "cling on" stories from other members. Have any of you been pursued and continually contacted by the BKs after leaving? Those folks are supposed to be detached!!! * Note too the comment about how attendance at the meditation class quickly and dramatically dwindled: " 98% of people leave the BKs after a course". Reminds me of eromain's observation, that for every bk there are 5 xbk's * Given the critical comments, and seeing that the admin Mike was / is a practicing BK, is it any wonder that the webpage is no longer there, and is only available in cached form from Google? Talk about freedom of expression in bkdom! * They sure have nice avatars! (Those little images that appear next to members' names). Not just on the cached page but on the other forum pages ( www.healthypages.net/forum/ ) which are presently active. If anyone knows how to get their hands on avatars like that, I suggest that you email them to admin, so we can have a wider choice and get some really cool avatars to choose from. No offence admin, but the range and quality of avatars on xbkchat isn't that great
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: |
from that link - with thanks, Atma:
Moonstoneruby wrote:
Hello everyone!! I recently joined bk classes and I quite enjoyed it untill sombody sent me this email and it has put me off. Please give me some advice. Thanks This is what I understand the BKs are about. Their founder believed that he was contacted by God in 1936 and that he was given information about the destruction of the world by nuclear holocaust. The destruction would happen within 100 of receipt of the message. The BKs are God’s chosen people and when all the 6 billion souls, now on earth, return to the Soul world (where God lives) the BKs will be given the top table at God’s feast and will be the first people to descend onto the new earth in batches. The first batch will be the crème-de-la-crème BKs – 108 in total. Then the next batch – 16 thousand BKs. Then the next batch – 900 thousand BKs. Then the riff-raff start to come down – slowly at first and then they come thick and fast and pollute the earth once again. This cycle lasts for 5000 yrs and then we all go back up to the Soul World and it all starts over again, exactly as before. So if you are to believe this, then 5000 yrs ago me and you were exchanging these same emails and will do again in 5000 yrs time.! All this nonsense is called ‘The Knowledge’ and is contained in the BK’s scripture known as murlis. There is a murli for every day and is read at every centre throughout the world every morning. When I challenged the teacher as to why these murlis were not published so that all the public could read them, I was told that they were not for public consumption- that they would alarm the public. ( Me thinks the BKs would be laughed and derided for believing such a load of beeswax!) Also to be a proper BK a person must lead a celibate life and be vegetarian. The posters on the xbkchat forum said that they suffered from psychiatric problems having had to lead a life alone as they were encouraged not to have friends other than other BKs. Also BKs must meditate each morning at 4 am and should attend the reading of the murli every Thursday and every Sunday mornings and also should go to the ashram in India – where God supposedly still speaks directly to the new channel. Have a read for yourself at some of the threads on the forum discussions boards www.xbkchat.com and also the classic post section. 98% of people leave the BKs after a course – there were about 12 people in my med. class in the beginning and only 3 finished including myself. Then I went to the talk the following week and I was the only one from my class. When I heard the rubbish about BKs being the Chosen Ones I decided it was not for me and never went back. Then the phone calls started and have continued since August – I monitor my calls so I don’t answer the phone to them. Another poster on another site told me that she lives in a small town and the BKs come to her house and although she has told them she is not interested they still persist and say that they will continue until she ‘sees the Light’. They have her email addy, her phone number and her address so be warned.
And the posts ended there... I have had exhortations in the past as to "when" I will be accepting Baba and getting all that 'super-sensuous bliss' from those still in the movement; not from the 'hierarchy' but from someone well-meaning, as they see it anyway. I can't be more emphatic that I am not interested, but they are still living in hope I guess of 'bringing me back to the fold' at some stage....
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:12 am Post subject: Do BKs Cling On To Those Who Leave |
Atma and Zukov, My case has been quite unique. It has been public knowledge for almost three decades now that I would leave the Pandav Government and become the Prime Minister of another government. Note, I am not calling that government my own. That statement is out of humility on my part. Who told me those words? IT WAS BD! On my first visit to Madhuban, my nick name amomg the Madhubanewasis, including the top brass was, Prime Minister! The BK top brass expected me to leave and therefore, no effort was made to contact me after my banishment. There was a time, about six years ago, when I contacted the BKs with the objective of starting over. That idea, however, faded away. I had made promises to BD and still feel it is my duty to maintain those promises, center or no center. After all, I was honored to celebrate my decade in gyan with BD and several western BKs who were pioneers of gyan in the occident. I remembered BD inquiring about Aiden Bhai. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: |
As far as the 'hierarchy' goes, they advised me that it was probably best if I "not come back" since I was having so much trouble with the churning due to my history of intense depression. I think it is unfortunate for the organisation dogma-wise that if you have/had a particular kind of mental or emotional problem then "god" will have no place for you in this supposed "golden age" due to your diminished ability to 'contact him'?? I was told by a retreat leader that especially in the case of those who have psychosis, there is nothing much the BKs can do, since it is the very thought processes themselves that are affected....and hence lessened ability to churn... i find this hard to believe that a real 'supreme godly entity' would just write off a percentage of the human population as being 'beyond his help' or was I given the wrong information
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:49 pm Post subject: Souls with psychological obstacles to following BK practices |
zhukov wrote:
As far as the 'hierarchy' goes, they advised me that it was probably best if I "not come back" since I was having so much trouble with the churning due to my history of intense depression. I think it is unfortunate for the organisation dogma-wise that if you have/had a particular kind of mental or emotional problem then "god" will have no place for you in this supposed "golden age" due to your diminished ability to 'contact him'?? I was told by a retreat leader that especially in the case of those who have psychosis, there is nothing much the BKs can do, since it is the very thought processes themselves that are affected....and hence lessened ability to churn... i find this hard to believe that a real 'supreme godly entity' would just write off a percentage of the human population as being 'beyond his help' or was I given the wrong information
In a way it's not surprising that every group tends to select its members. The regular excuse for giving up on an individual among the BKs is that 's/he has karmic accounts that keep him/her from being able to be intimately involved with the work/culture of the BKs. And for BKs, their 'service' work is sufficient if they merely give others 'the message' while those BKs capable of 'creating' fully following brahmins are praised for their ability to draw in and inspire 'old' souls. Even Jesus/Christ is believed to be around here someone, fine humble loving monk in a brown robe, far from the corridors of Christian Power, waiting for BK God-Light to uplift him from his rebirth-degraded state. The BKs are message givers and if the message sticks the person is an old-soul BK. If the person becomes psychotic as a result of receiving BK teachings, it is an old karmic account working out. Just give the person vibrations of love. And some do work out their psychological problems among the BKs, ice of old habits melting in the glow of loving-yet-detached spiritual comraderie. Others have taken the opportunity of receiving BK philosophy and company as a moment to go bonkers. It is always sad when someone feels so alone and isolated and bad that they decide to end their life. Imagine that Karen Carpenter who sang those lovely songs (she started her musical career as a drummer!) felt so bad about herself she got caught in an anorexic spiral that ultimately cost her life. Or the BK who suicided in London, unable to accept her non-following of BK principles, and not receiving the kind of unconditional acceptance that would have helped her accept herself. This was not an issue when Brahma Baba and early adherents selected each other's company. Only becomes an issue now that the organization has lahks of followers, a wider cross section of psychologically variable humanity. But to speak to the issue of depressed functioning, the person can benefit from unconditional acceptance of friends to whom one speaks frankly of one's situation and through self-reporting within the simple traditions of a twelve-step group, and even more by finding an environment in which they can actively participate, actions that change their situation and feelings, undermining the belief that one is incapable of successfully engaging in productive acts. Perhaps the BK environment could work for some fraction of depressed people. For others, the task of raising a child, the daily demands of conscientious motherhood, provide a stimulus to establishing a healthy routine and disciplined focus in a person who might otherwise be caught up in mental wheels-within-wheels. At the bottom, I don't think nature guarantees an individual any level of feel-good neurotransmitters. There is bound to be variation. The god faith that really helps the person and their support network of loving friends is confidence that the person can find a way to express their essence in a idiosyncratic and satisfying way, actions that open the door to further possibilities inviting further acts, leading the person into a trajectory of potent action that transforms the person's sense of self. But then the mystery of high-performing individuals like Spike Milligan and Karen Carpenter who somehow are not fully nourished by their own creative acts. Medication can help some, and there is a wide choice of prescription and traditional substances to experiment with. Even medication is a process of experimentation and learning, a kind of legitimate self-regulation that can promote one's process of adaptation and self-expression. BKs specialize in self-selecting BKs, that's why it's not surprising that they fail in helping large numbers of ordinary people with ordinary problems. Of course it's great that Dadi Kumarka can go an lecture to a group of thousands of natives and inspire them to give up drinking and violent behavior.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
Thank you for that very considered response, Joel
Joel wrote:
]At the bottom, I don't think nature guarantees an individual any level of feel-good neurotransmitters. There is bound to be variation. The god faith that really helps the person and their support network of loving friends is confidence that the person can find a way to express their essence in a idiosyncratic and satisfying way, actions that open the door to further possibilities inviting further acts, leading the person into a trajectory of potent action that transforms the person's sense of self.
I definately agree with you there. Although I haven't experienced 'god-faith' myself as yet ~
Quote:
BKs specialize in self-selecting BKs, that's why it's not surprising that they fail in helping large numbers of ordinary people with ordinary problems.
Well that makes sense. I'm not saying that the BKs were were of no assistance, though. I was very definately helped by the basic knowledge they imparted of *thoughts=feelings=behaviour* and that my depressive/self-loathful feelings might have been due to illogical thoughts which after examination do not, in fact, stand the test of reason. As far as I know, this concept is a basic one of most meditation practices; please correct me if this isn't the case...
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:51 am Post subject: Do BKs Cling To Those Who Leave |
Zukov, I feel that you were given mis-information by that retreat leader. The question should be asked: Who give the authority to that BK to represent Almighty God in such a gross irresponsible way? I would suppose that when that BK leader is in the court of Dharam Raj, s/he will put the blame or maya. I have witnessed similar callous and irresponsible behavior by BKs who are poisoned by excessive egotism become physicians or healers of God. Many psychoses can be reversed by alternative healing modalities. It seems a paradox that while SB regards modern medicine with all of the machines, as imperfect and ineffective, BKs are using the limited [b]Germ Theory Paradigm of Scientific Medicine [/b]to legalize their in effectiveness as healers or doctors of the soul. They, therefore, have a scientific right to give up on souls who can and should be helped. In adequate training, can be used to describe BKs who in God's name cannot help souls with treatable psychoses. Similar cases like yours were treated successfully by non-BKs! Did BD choose to be the Immortal Surgeons and cooperate with the non-BK healers and refused to cooperate with the irresponsible BKs? Joel, with respect to your statement on Yeshua, I would agree that he here. I would with humility state that he would rather BD introduce him to humanity. However, he is not waiting for that important introduction. He is, as an xBK in secret or in unassuming ways, doing the service of the followers of his teachings. He is also helping those who are not his followers. In addition, he is involved in the gigantic task of correcting the false teachings farbicated in his name and the name of God by the so called early Christians. Included in the rank of the early anti-Christs are Emperor Constantine, Paul and the writers of the scriptures who covered up the Egyptian origins of the teachings of Yeshua Ben Nazarette who in Greek was known as Jesus Christ. He is working in cognito, as a gupta yogi to uplift himself and uplift others. I feel that he would rather, at this time, prefer to stay away from the lime-light. Sometimes, I feel, that he is very amused by the follies of those who call them Christians, most especially when they try to convert him to the degenerate paradigm of a school of mysticism of which he was the co-founder! _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Do BKs Cling To Those Who Leave |
hanuman wrote:
Joel, with respect to your statement on Yeshua, I would agree that he here. I would with humility state that he would rather BD introduce him to humanity. However, he is not waiting for that important introduction. He is, as an xBK in secret or in unassuming ways, doing the service of the followers of his teachings. He is also helping those who are not his followers. In addition, he is involved in the gigantic task of correcting the false teachings farbicated in his name and the name of God by the so called early Christians. Included in the rank of the early anti-Christs are Emperor Constantine, Paul and the writers of the scriptures who covered up the Egyptian origins of the teachings of Yeshua Ben Nazarette who in Greek was known as Jesus Christ. He is working in cognito, as a gupta yogi to uplift himself and uplift others. I feel that he would rather, at this time, prefer to stay away from the lime-light. Sometimes, I feel, that he is very amused by the follies of those who call them Christians, most especially when they try to convert him to the degenerate paradigm of a school of mysticism of which he was the co-founder!
Hi Hanuman, So I guess this 'knowledge' is real for you, or maybe you actually met the person in question! If you re-read my post, you will see I preface my comments, "BKs believe...." In this and other statements I make in posts on the BK worldview, it is more a trip down memory lane for me. Many people who are in touch with themselves lead vigorous, active lives. Such people don't need a philosophical or theological framework to guide their lives. Conversely, myself and many others who have experimented with BK lifestyle for 10 or even 20 years have found that the BK world view does not guarantee or even necessarily facilitate a spontaneous inner sense of direction. The concept that thought precedes action argues for a superiority of the intellect, and that is standard BK intellectual fare. Yet maybe not so helpful to depressive people whose judgment capabilities are overactive, effectively suppressing spontaneous creative urges that make one's life one's own. A meditative lifestyle accommodates the depressive personality: more thinking and less doing, although 'service' and BK family activities do lead to actions if in a narrow, predefined sphere. Speaking from my own experience, those with depressive characteristics will benefit by engaging with others as themselves, rather than as representatives of a particular tribe.
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Do BKs Cling To Those Who Leave |
Joel wrote:
Speaking from my own experience, those with depressive characteristics will benefit by engaging with others as themselves, rather than as representatives of a particular tribe.
Just to finish that last thought, if you represent yourself in BK-ish ways with BK-ish ideas, others are responding to BK-ishness rather than to you. To get genuine mirroring/validation of ourselves--which it seems that many desire and seek--I believe it is necessary that we express our own essence, rather than something external we have imitated and inculcated.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:39 am Post subject: Do BKs Cling To Those Who Leave? |
Joel, Your response is elegant and pragmatic. Yes, I have had meetings with Yeshua The Essene. Several months before I came into gyan, I had visions of the Teacher of the Essenes. Sometimes during meditation I would also have visions of Yeshua. Gyan and Bap Dada has been good to me. There were, of course, the examination papers to face. I learned from day one, however, that the greatest tests were not from outside of the House of The BKs, but from within! Gyan and BD are real for me. I can still communicate in the jargon or language of the BKs. However, even in gyan my approaches were scientific. I did pay a price for being scientific. I was constanly attacked by those at the top and bottom of the House of The BKs for being an intellectual and radical. BD and a few BKs appreciated me as I have been and will be. Many others tried their best to make me feel that I did not belong to the House of Raj Yogis. That was always cool with me. My objectives for becoming a BK were very specific and my mind's eye was never cluttered by some of the side shows in the House of Raj Yogis. The side shows included the turf wars, power struggles and clash of sanskars and egos. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Guest |
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
My case has been quite unique. It has been public knowledge for almost three decades now that I would leave the Pandav Government and become the Prime Minister of another government.
to be honest, you sound ill to me You just keep on repeating this same stuff about yourself and your "special" role etc...and always the same stories. I'm very surprised nobody addressed you yet about your megalomania-problem. And than still, I have the feeling that you're giving a filtered version of what you really think. Anyway, it's a serious problem. Your mourti is out of controle.
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Do BKs cling on to those who leave? |
I like the fact that the post was made on Date 16.6.04, 16:36:41 and now she is a moderator
SarahReflex wrote:
Is anyone familiar with these mediation classes? Mu husband and I are wanting to learn meditation and the BK have classes in our area. However, neither of us are religious, although we do respect spirituality, but wouldn't want to be preached to or involved in organised religion. I have looked at the BK website to see if it is suitable for us, but I'm not 100% sure. Has anyone got any experience of these classes? http://www.bkwsu.com/ Many thanks Sarah x
Atma wrote:
I did a Google search for XBKchat yesterday, just to see what would come up. There were lots or repetitive listings, but a few things of interest. One of those was a page from another forum. Apparently the page is no longer there. What was displayed is Google's "cache" of the page. Since I'm not a techie, I take it that "cache" means "stored in memory" or something like that. Here is the link for Google's cache of the page: http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:dO4hq87An3oJ:www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp%3Fm%3D79234+xbkchat&hl=en
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Do BKs cling on to those who leave? |
Atma wrote:
Klingons. I'd be interested to hear similar "cling on" stories from other members. Have any of you been pursued and continually contacted by the BKs after leaving? Those folks are supposed to be detached!!!
A married couple I knew who had some children were members of the BK's when I first started taking classes, they had been around about 10 years in gyan and at some point started drifting away and doing their own thing. As I was good friends with them, I constantly got asked where they were etc etc. They are doing their own thing I would say, and doing well. Still they kept trying to find out where they had gone, but the family ended up just disapearing and moving out of town to get away from it all. I myself dont get bothered too much, mostly when I see people they just ask where I have been so long.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: Do BKs Cling On To Those Who Leave? |
Kevin, Ty. Yes, I do some amount of filtering. The world is not at the moment, ready for much of the stories I would love to tell. In any case, I never tell all about myself! You have a RIGHT to your opinions as I have a RIGHT TO relate MY TRUE STORIES, based on my True experiences as a BK and XBK. I will, however, never allow your statements to preclude my interaction with you and my other fellow xBKS. I must assure you that I will continue to express my self to help, to the best of my abilities, those who need help. Fortunately, I am who I am and I'll never hate my self in order to please. On a deep spiritual level, the issue is not about me. The issue is about the promises I made to BD, WHOM I respect as the Great Spirit. I must keep my promises. I you dislike me for who or what I am, that's cool. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Guest |
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:31 am Post subject: |
Quote:
If you dislike me for who or what I am, that's cool.
Now you're putting words in my mouth as I have not expressed this. As it is with such "prophecies", time will tell. In the mean time, just as most here, you just hold on to 'experiences' just as if they are correct per definition. My gut feeling tells me that a hell lot of people are gonna be very disappointed in the (near) future. You will always be the prime minister in your own mind and that's the end of the story. The great spirit has been telling many lies to many people. You received what you wanted to receive. Nothing more. What matters is that you are the greatest to yourself and all your family and friends (humans and animals, papaya ). I have never called out for god, so I never understood 'bout what the man was talking in his murli's. He tells many lies to make you dependent of him ... is it a test or is he the devil? The devil is probably the greatest thing there is, once you realise he uncovers your biggest weakness. Just break through his manipulating practices and you really died alive.
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