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Basis of faith being aceptance of the 5,000 year cycle.
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bkdavid Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Australia |
Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:05 pm Post subject: Basis of faith being aceptance of the 5,000 year cycle. |
Having been committed to Brahmin life and following the Maryadas and serving in several centres around Australia for around 10 years; on the basis of what now seems to me, overwhelming evidence of the existence of humanity for several thousand years earlier than 5,000 ago, I found myself questioning whether the teachings of the Brahma Kumaris are factual or not. And if not, then does fact that bring into question the basis of the faith that I'd developed over those 10 years as a practising BK. Is the reference of 5,000 years based on knowledge received directly from the Supreme or is it the opinion of Brahma Baba based on previous study of the Hindu scriptures. Speaking to several current BKs I find that some don't allow the question of the accuracy or not of the teaching of the 5,000 year cycle to get in the way of them living their life as a Brahmin. I'd be pleased to hear the opinions of any of you who have found this aspect of Shrimat to be challenging and how you have dealt with it. I look forward to a meaningful dialogue on what I believe to be a subject that needs airing truthfully. I, for myself find it difficult to accept the concept of the 5,000 year cycle on the basis of "blind faith" simply because, having gained benefit from the practice of Raja Yoga I have to blindly accept everything that's taught from the Gaddhi. I'm now wondering whether being introduced to the concept of intense meditation allowed me to develop my own capacity for self-change, or was it the result of "Divine Intervention". I'll leave it at that for the moment and await other contributions.
kyra Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66 |
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:21 am Post subject: |
Hi David When i took the course 10 years ago I did not believe in the 5,000 years. There are still a lot of things I have been told by the BKs that dont sit right, and so I just continue on my way with the things that do seem right to me. Ive experienced the great changes in myself (positive) since learning all about these spiritual things and I keep my focus on that. I find there is much too much emphasis placed upon this 5,000 years and these 84 births... I do believe there is a cycle (as with everything in nature) however I think to say a time span is a bit like saying destruction will happen on such and such a date. I think this question is one that will never be resolved and your probably about 7 in 10 who also are somewhat reserved about this numbers game (but wont challenge it openly), so the bottom line is other than that are you happy with your brahmin lifestyle aside from this and can you look past it? i call myself an ex-bk because I am not longer content to pretend i do believe in these things (have blind faith) (5,000 years - 84 births and Im also weary of what is being taught in the murlies as being rather contradictory to what I thought the original stance of the brahmins were about). So ok I still mediate and go to the centre once in a blue moon, i dont eat meat, smoke or drink, I still call God Baba and do service in my own way in my everyday life. The 5000 year thing maybe they got it wrong who knows i think its silly for them to focus so much on this and the 84 births. It makes people time concious which to me in some ways is as bad as body conciousness.. I think people should want to change now because they realize there is no better time than the present not because soon your gonna get beamed up in a second when the world goes boom .. just my thoughts, thanks, Kyra
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Basis of faith being aceptance of the 5,000 year cycle. |
bkdavid wrote:
Having been committed to Brahmin life and following the Maryadas and serving in several centres around Australia for around 10 years; on the basis of what now seems to me, overwhelming evidence of the existence of humanity for several thousand years earlier than 5,000 ago, I found myself questioning whether the teachings of the Brahma Kumaris are factual or not. And if not, then does fact that bring into question the basis of the faith that I'd developed over those 10 years as a practising BK. Is the reference of 5,000 years based on knowledge received directly from the Supreme or is it the opinion of Brahma Baba based on previous study of the Hindu scriptures.
Brother David, A warm welcome to XBKchat. From your post, I can see that you will be a good contributor to the forums. That's what we need here....quality I can see why you began to doubt the 5000 years cycle. Indeed, the evidence for human life way beyond 5000 years ago is overwhelming. I am therefore surprised that your second sentence is so equivocal. What do I mean? Well, the 5K cycle is undoubtedly the centerpiece, or key element, of BK "knowledge". It is the central aspect, the backbone, of their belief system. So, if the cycle comes into doubt, or is discredited, then the whole structure collapses. Indeed, I would say that belief in the cycle is even more important than belief in Shiv Baba. It trancends arguments about who exactly comes in Abu and speaks through medium. Shiv Baba has said that even he is bound by the cycle. So, if we disbelieve the cycle, the we must conclude that the teachings of the BKs are not factual. The teachings are false. And how can we have faith on the basis of false teachings? How can we believe in a lie? As to your question about the source of the cyclic belief. It is not the opinion of Brahma Baba. It comes directly from the incorporeal source, Shiv Baba. This can be seen from the fact that they are inumerable references to the 5000 years cycle in avyakt murlis, delivered through Dadi Gulzar years after Brahma Baba's passing. Of course there are also references to the cycle in the sakar murlis, which were delivered by Shiv Baba through Brahma Baba. Now, some questions. As a result of these things dawning on you, have you found yourself in turmoil? Do you feel conflicted? Do you think you can continue on the path if you no longer accept the cycle? Are you on your way to becoming an XBK....or have you already left the path? Whatever the answers are, just know that you are not alone. There are members of this website who are in similar positions and, I am sure, they will be happy and willing to discuss and share with you and - even though we are in cyberspace - to provide a form of "fellowship" as you work through these issues. By the way, I know that "bkdavid" is just a user name, but I recall that there is a brother David who is very well known in Abu. He is a gifted artist and has done many of the paintings that adorn Gyan Sarovar and other buildings in Abu. I heard that he is very well liked by Bapdada. As an example of that affection, I was told that some years ago Bapdada asked him (David) to come on to the stage. He (David) was at the very back of the hall and Bapdada and the entire gathering waited patiently and in complete silence for about 5 minutes as Brother David slowly made his way from the back of the hall to the stage ! Would you happen to know / know of your "namesake"? Just curious.
omshanthi Joined: 02 May 2004 Posts: 1 Location: confluence age |
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:35 am Post subject: Time always tells |
Whether we believe or disbeleive that the 5000 year cycle exist is a matter of a personal choice, which is completely understandable. That is what makes each individual so unique. If we have complete trust in Shivbaba's knowledge without having a thread of doubt then the question of "5000 years" would not have even enter our mind. Time will tell, it always has. Om Shanti
bkdavid Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Australia |
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: Basis of faith being aceptance of the 5,000 year cycle. |
Thank you to those who have allowed this subject to progress. I hope it will allow some truly open views to be expressed and, as a consequence, assist each of us in determining how to individually use the information given by the BK seniors and allow us to develop a mature approach to our own unique spiritual journey. I personally found that, after nearly twenty years of being told that I must not miss Murli (An instruction frequently read in the Murli itself) I felt that it was time to get out of the "classroom" and start using the wisdom I'd gained over the years by once again living life as a member of society. I've found that the values and virtues that I studied for an extensive period are now the tools that I use in everyday life. Just as someone who undertakes an apprentiship learns to use the tools before becoming a qualified tradesperson. Having freed myself from the rigid disciplines of Brahmin life, I'm now able to make new value-judgments on the conflicting knowledge of the cycle and the overwhelming evidence (not merely hyothesis) about the development of nature over many thousands of years. Watching documentaries, (supported by real-life photos of animals, birds, fish and and reptiles) of the nature of things today, I find it incomprehensible to accept that 2,500 years ago, no living thing killed another living thing. (The concept of a totally non-violent world) There is so much evidence of speces that are part of an intricate food-chain that must have taken many thousands of years to evolve, that it's impossible to believe that such a dramatic change could occur within a small number of years (after destruction) to eliminate any trace of carnivors. So, with such doubt about 5000 years, the question of the validity of the knowledge provided in the Sakar Murlis is a subject that deserves close examination. In 1983, when I heard my first Murli, I was told (in the Murlis)that there were no more than 5 billion souls. About 10 years later, I was told (in the Murlis) that there were 5 - 5.5 billion souls. 20 years later I'm being told (in the Murlis) that there are 5.5 - 6 billion souls. If you would all care to logon the the following website, you will find that the current world population is around 6.3 billion. http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/clock.html I've heard several times in the Murlis that Vasgo Da Gama was the first person to sail round the world. In fact it was Magellan who was the first to do so. Surely, God wouldn't make these mistakes. So, do we just use this knowledge to assist ourselves to develop a broad-minded intellect or are we supposed to keep within a narrow and biased point of view with no right to question anything that seems questionable? To my mind, the Jury is still out and I'm willing to listen to more evidence on either side of the discussion.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
Sweetest BKDavid, I have had an experience where I found myself subtly watching the drama as a cycle (going in a cycle). I had experienced how we take 84 births during that cycle. My stage was very good at hat time even though the experience had only lasted for a split second. After the experience, I was able to enjoy the effects of that split second when I continued to feel very light, peaceful, spiritual, happy etc. It was a lovely experienced which had enabled me to accept that time does travel in a second. I had done intense effort making just before the experience. Experiences of past births, other existing knowledge in the Kaliyug world etc also enabled me to accept that time does travel in a cycle. It is also my experience that God uses the sanskaras of the instruments who He uses. This may be one of the reasons why there are slight differences in some facts relating to what had happened on earth.
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