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God, Love,and Sex
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tomas Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 9 Location: Bronx, New York |
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: God, Love,and Sex |
Hi, everyone For those of you who don't know me, I'm an ex-bk and a young man as well. I joined the US Navy in 1999 at the age of 17 and was discharge from the military in 2003. After my military discharge, I went through a lot of negative experiences that caused me an existential vacum. I lost my reason for living and life didn't make sense. As I was experiencing this pain I became depressed and the pain I felt compelled me to reach towards the ski, in a hotel room, during a roadtrip to Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, and ask God to please take my life for I can stand the pain of my existance. I didn't experience an instant answer to my suffering, however I was able to keep living having the faith that I could make it all I needed was to school, where I intended to become happy. Those ideas were proven wrong the judge of time. After my inability to adopt to the lifestyle lived by people in Las Vegas, I moved to new york in a very disturbed manner. Soon God answer my prayer and I met the Brahma Kumaris from whom I learn great deal, although I have to admit that I was not able to lead an honest celibate life. After failing my eternal father, I had to be hospitalized to cope with disturbance I had experienced. After my discharge from the hospital, I acted as a lone striver, with the will to lead a life with brahmin, principals outside of the brahmin world. Anyways this has fail too. Now since those of you who hadn't known my profile now have it I would like to ask those who understand this things, It is possible to live with God and experience Human Sexual intercourse? Can you be the master of yourself and Seek sexual gratification as walk through this life, this world, right here, or are we just doom to become slave of the senses? thank you for taking the to read this, and your comment will be truly valued and respected. _________________ With you, I learn and grow
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: Re: God, Love,and Sex |
tomas wrote:
Hi, everyone For those of you who don't know me, I'm an ex-bk and a young man as well. I joined the US Navy in 1999 at the age of 17 and was discharge from the military in 2003. After my military discharge, I went through a lot of negative experiences that caused me an existential vacum. I lost my reason for living and life didn't make sense. As I was experiencing this pain I became depressed and the pain I felt compelled me to reach towards the ski, in a hotel room, during a roadtrip to Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, and ask God to please take my life for I can stand the pain of my existance. I didn't experience an instant answer to my suffering, however I was able to keep living having the faith that I could make it all I needed was to school, where I intended to become happy. Those ideas were proven wrong the judge of time. After my inability to adopt to the lifestyle lived by people in Las Vegas, I moved to new york in a very disturbed manner. Soon God answer my prayer and I met the Brahma Kumaris from whom I learn great deal, although I have to admit that I was not able to lead an honest celibate life. After failing my eternal father, I had to be hospitalized to cope with disturbance I had experienced. After my discharge from the hospital, I acted as a lone striver, with the will to lead a life with brahmin, principals outside of the brahmin world. Anyways this has fail too. Now since those of you who hadn't known my profile now have it I would like to ask those who understand this things, It is possible to live with God and experience Human Sexual intercourse? Can you be the master of yourself and Seek sexual gratification as walk through this life, this world, right here, or are we just doom to become slave of the senses? thank you for taking the to read this, and your comment will be truly valued and respected.
I don't know how to answer the question of your conflicted feelings, Tomas, or whether it is right that anyone should tell you This Is How It Is(tm). From my limited perspective, these considerations arise in response to your words: First and foremost to understand is that whatever you may believe about the soul and God, we are mammals. The word 'mammal' is related to 'mammary,' i.e. breast. Our bodies grow inside of the body of our mother. We feel warmth, movement and hear sounds, which is quite different from the existence of lizards, which develop silently inside eggs. After we are born, if we are lucky, the most peaceful feelings we have are feeling our skin against the warm skin of our mother's belly, and of feeling the connection of looking into her eyes as she looks into ours. For baby humans, for babies of any mammalian species, touch is nourishment. Our brain and nervous system need warm wet skin-to-skin contact, including mouth, lips, tongue, in order to develop. Babies who are not touched wither and die. For humans, and for all mammals, touch is not optional. Touch and skin-to-skin contact make us what we are. Touch is part of us, has been part of us as long as mammals have roved the planet. Those mammals that weren't touched died, so all our ancestors were touched! Okay with that, Tomas? So, to digress, what is the wisdom of putting premature babies in enclosed plastic incubators? What is the wisdom of taking a newborn away from the mothers at the hospital, of denying the most precious moments and experiences of a baby's first hours in the outside world? Why hit babies to make them breathe when the placenta is still supplying them with oxygen, when nature has provided time for them to discover to breathe themselves, without violence? Why cut them away from their mother's blood support before the time comes? Why turn their first moments into traumatizing pain and horror by mutilating their genitals? This all comes from the "Wisdom" (definitely needing 'scare' quotes) of established authorities and institutions, external authorities that benefit from people being motivated by fear into easily manipulated flight-or-fight responses. Instinct goes together with pleasure, especially in mammals. Sucking milk from the breast is instinct, instinct that attracts through pleasure. For babies all gentle, supportive contact is nourishing and pleasurable. Babies of both sexes have spongy tissues that become engorged with blood when they experience pleasure. We go through many changes as we become adults, yet the primacy of touch remains. If God made mammals, or if He understands developmental biology, He certainly accepts touch and pleasure among His Creation. To my thinking, sexual response, the attraction to the sensations that accompany engorgement of nerve-rich tissues in our breasts and genitals, is something that goes along with touch, has been there in our brains, nerves, skin and blood since before beginning. The feelings of mutual pleasure in touch, whether between mother and child, or between lovers, or between childhood playmates, or any combination of people that you might conceivably be put in jail for if reported to authorities by one of your neighbors, contain nothing of harm that I can see. Nothing intrinsically. I think God, if He is here, understands that, too. The key word here is mutual. We mammals can love each other, even humans and animals. Somewhere I have a link to a love story between an orphaned baby hippo and a hundred year-old giant tortoise. They bonded, nuzzle and sleep together. The baby gets maternal love from the tortoise, who is not even a mammal! However, sexual contact in adults can lead to pregnancy and babies. That is part of the reason we are here. Babies are responsibility, requiring a huge amount of resources for the many years till they reach maturity. And sexual contact may also transmit disease. If we are to consciously choose our future, and to take responsibility for our actions, we need to modulate our desires--even mutual desires--with some level of understanding. Even if we fail in this as unrealized/unconscious individuals, it may still be a success for the species, since few of us can resist helping and bonding to a crying baby. Our pleasure systems are wired that way. I think God, if He is here, understands all that. Violence and aggression are also a part of nature, the dominating Yang force of energy release. This is also the force of anger and of destruction, and has many constructive purposes as well. Our world /galaxy/universe cannot function without it. We can become bound into all sorts of bizarre, harmful, soul-destroying behavior patterns depending on how our aggressive Yang side becomes linked to the pleasure systems of touch and sexual arousal. Of course it is necessary, too. Soldiers can and do fight for control of resources, and they can do so because of finding pleasure in it. It may not be a sin to take pleasure in killing a person. If you're going to kill him/her anyway, why not enjoy it? Are they any less dead if you feel guilty about it? Of course there are ramifications. Many soldiers are traumatized by the acts into which their situation forces them. My point is that God doesn't prohibit any of this: Creation cannot exist without it. (Okay maybe some religious philosophers will argue that last point; it certainly seems to apply in this world.) Where I am leading tho, is that if contact between people is mutually pleasurable, and especially if it is undertaken consciously, with awareness of risks and responsibilities, in my opinion, it appears to be part of the same continuum that began with our birth. Angels are shown white, maybe because the upper atmosphere is frigid and they are all cold. Frozen corpses are also white. We are red with blood and passion and warmth. Those who would deny passion and touch probably fear their own violent impulses of anger-bound-with-love. Kill-your-father rape-your-mother aggression toward those who give to you. If we can find faith in ourselves and honesty with others; faith in human mammalian reality, I think we have a decent chance to flow into positive unalloyed pleasure of mutual giving. An intimate relationship can support our building that faith into ourselves, faith that might have been missing since a violent birth and unfulfilled childhood. Intimate contact can literally re-wire our nervous systems so that we experience ourselves as fullness of loving and giving, transforming what was a yawning blackness of lonely self-hate into something beautiful, giving a deeper meaning to our persisting through what may have been years of pain and suffering. If there is a God or other authority who can tell me otherwise, I invite Her to speak here. What a small comfort are words compared with the preverbal nourishment of loving contact! With that nourishment I think we are in a much better position to listen to the words of another, to exercise wisdom and choice in our lives. Otherwise in my opinion, you might as well choose to live without breathing or eating.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: PURE LOVE HAS NO SIN |
Tomas, Thank you little one for telling us you are young and your questions are with a purity of heart. Gracias Papito por decirnos que eres tierno y que tus preguntas son con toda pureza. When I was a child my mother (who was very religious) had a little talk with me. She explained that yes, we were all God’s children and she explained to me some things that she said had to do with intimacy - but at the time I didn’t fully understand what that was. She worked in a hospital and on occasion she would take me there and so I knew the place well and was happy there. With your dad being a doctor you will be able to relate. On this day she sat me down to have one of her many talks with me (I was a cute little girl with many curls and big eyes….some people say I talk with my eyes). She explained that as a little angel (as you know within our culture we see children as being pure of heart…without malice) I was to help out with a task that was very important. A man had been severely burned, his family was afraid of him and so he lost the will to live. I honestly didn’t fully grasp that but I listened. She then told me that knowing God was to be able to love anyone no matter what their condition, nor how they looked physically, we had to look within, look into their eyes and see their spirit (soul..su Alma). She then told me how he would look scary at first as he was all bandaged up but I would be able to hear his voice and see his eyes. I was to sit with him, keep him company, talk to him and have meals with him. I was told he was very lonely, sad, often cried and needed touch. So, she then explained that even when we can’t physically touch someone we can still reach them with our mind (I recall I had trouble with this part). So, our first meeting took place after our talk. She introduced me and I remember his eyes gazing at my little being, I broke a slight smile and looked up at my mother. I remember thinking he looked like a mummy. Soon I took my place on a chair next to his hospital bed with my little coloring pencils, paper and my doll. Soon my mother waved as she was off to do her work and so our first chat began. Soon my daily visits were greeted with “mi Niña” as I would enter the room and I began to see him beyond his bandages into this beautiful person I knew within. We laughed, talked, ate together and on occasion we cried together (when he would remember his little girl and little boy). Soon word got back to his family and they came by one day when we were telling each other stories. I remember his little girl seemed jealous and his wife asked if I was his little visitor. I remember my mother walking in behind them and asking me to come along. I remember she said that my task was done. Years later I asked her about this and she was surprised I remembered. She told me that when people receive love they attain the will to live, she knew that by me being with him he would get better and that soon his family would come around. She asked me if I remember him as scary and I said I did not. She then told me that was because I had seen beyond the physical at an early age. In relation to the post Brahmin “state” where XBKs are trying to connect again with feeling, touching, loving and allowing themselves to be loved, I began to connect to memories in my past. I was moved by one here who is very genuine in his questions and loving in his intent. So, I will share this memory with you of my family in true fellowship of the human condition we are all part of. I remembered my mother sitting all of the children down when my baby brother was almost a year old. I remember it was a serious talk. She explained that my brother couldn’t hear. We as a family had to help him. Doctors had told her he was developmentally delayed, but being a nurse, midwife, massage/bone therapist she believed otherwise. She told us he had to connect his body with his head/mind. He had to connect to the world around him, by developing other senses and feeling the world. And so we took on the daily challenge of teaching him to sit, to crawl, to walk and connect. We would all take turns, sometimes we worked as a team, one showing him how to crawl the other propping him up with a small blanket. When he would cry inconsolably, we would give him a bubble bath and slowly let the water drop on his head (to feel/stimulate/sense). Once he seemed relaxed, we would cream him up, massage him and wrap him all up. Then we were instructed to hold him until he looked in our eyes and connected, surrendered to our loving little gaze (we were little girls). If he smiled it was a good sign and soon he would fall asleep. Through out the years we did this until he had all his surgeries and was able to hear. Over the years we saw it as a natural thing to do and part of daily life. Today he is the smartest one of us all, with a very high IQ and smiles politely. In response to what Joel said I will agree in that we all (young and old) are in need of the human touch, the verbal touch and human love. Upon entering the world and upon leaving it as I am in agreement with Joel, it is my belief and my experience in life that this is true. I can recall taking care of my premature baby daily with love and placing my baby skin to skin to assure that my baby would thrive. I have a picture of my baby looking up at me as I give my baby a bath in the bathroom sink (that is just how small my baby was) and the look of love in those eyes as they connect/embrace. I call it the “Picture of love”. You can tell that baby as small and fragile was able to receive and give love back at that early stage in life. Like Joel states we can’t help but respond to a baby’s cry and to my surprise the cry of a premature infant sets off an instinct unlike I had not known before. I also learned for the first time that such tiny babies can coo and the sound they make is remarkable. I taped it as it is unique beyond explanation. Communication at its purest form! I had a profound experience with a man I cared for while going to college. At the time I was working with another man during a 7pm to 7am shift and had returned home after my morning classes for a nap. My mother was waiting for me with lunch and she wanted to have a talk…my mother was not the type of woman to say “later” to. She explained that R’s wife had called and that the agency called to say they gave out my number as she was in quite a state (upset). So, before doing anything else I was told to call his wife. Oh, she was very sweet and apologized for asking me this (her husband was refusing the care of anyone but me) knowing I was tired and she knew I had asked to be transferred out (I thought at the time her husband was sweet on me). I was wrong! Youth! I didn’t understand at a young age the intimacy needed by disabled individuals and he didn’t explain what he needed. Today doctors and allied health are more involved in these needs so not to have miscommunication. So, after much pleading and my mother looking at me I told her I would be right over. When I arrived R. was like a little boy happy as pie to see me and shooing off the gal assigned to him. I reprimanded him about this as he was quite rude. He shook his head winking at me and said how glad he was to see me. He looked over at his wife and told her he knew I would come. So, I inquired what had been done and what hadn’t been done. To my surprise nothing as he refused any assistance from the gal there. So, off we went with him in a wheel chair to his bathroom to shower him, trim his hair, shave him etc. He was a big man but I handled it fine as he always helped me as he was always looking at me in a certain way ( I later saw that look in my baby’s eyes). When I got him out of the shower I remember he said, “When you care for me you do it like my mother would, nothing is too much for you and you always make me feel beautiful”. He would often look at me with those big blue eyes and get tears. I remember telling him he was just charming me. So, I creamed him up (for circulation and also because infirmed folks lack touch) put his cologne on and he looked like the president of the bank again when dressed. He was a handsome man and very gracious. When we were all done his wife was waiting in the bedroom and he looked at her and told her some thing like “Here is your handsome guy”, and then asked to be moved over to the bed. He got in, I thought for a nap, but asked his wife to come onto the bed with him. So, there they were looking like a cute couple holding hands. He said I could take my nap as they were going to talk and so off I went to the den where I fell fast asleep. About two hours later I woke up as they were about in the kitchen. I asked if that was all he wanted or needed from me as his gal in charge was back. He said he would be eternally thankful to me for making him handsome and asked his wife to give me an envelope and asked that I open it later. He wanted to kiss me goodbye and by this time being so tired I no longer put up an argument and agreed (his wife motioned that it was OK). So, off I went in search of much needed sleep. The next morning I got I call. It was R.’s wife. She wanted me to know that during my nap he had told her many wonderful things and that he felt special/handsome. They held hands and shared some wonderful insights on their life together, their children and the many trips they took together….and that he loved her. She then said he wanted to go to sleep early…and died in his sleep. He was only in his 50’s. She said she thought he knew he was dying and wanted to go looking handsome and being handsome on the last day they had together. He wanted to leave her with some very special memories. She told me he was thankful in that I allowed him his dignity and did things for him willingly with love. She wanted me to know how much she appreciated that I took care of him with love and devotion. He would apparently tell her at night about all our little chats too. We said goodbye and I went and got the envelope from my purse. It had $500 dollars and a note which must have taken him some time to write as he had suffered a stroke and was confined to a wheel chair with little use of his hands. He wrote me some thing personal that I shared with him and what his insight into that was. It amazed me that he cared enough to think it all through...so, he gave me a gift of his knowledge that I often think about. So, Tomas as you can see we are all human beings in need of touch, verbal praise, friendship and love. Loving someone shouldn’t be wrong, sharing of one’s self is not wrong, and there are many ways to love. There are many ways we touch others that come to us on our journey in this life. We often can serve God more fully when we are “IN LOVE” as everything seems like a wonder, we bounce as we walk, we greet each day with joy and we laugh. You are young man and as such you are like that fresh flower, a breath of fresh air, a new beginning. You are seeking to be a self actualized young man and finding your way in this world. Don’t think for a minute you have failed anyone for being human. I can remember someone telling me that to discover love with someone that loves you completely and sees all your flaws feels like being in your mothers arms again. If you experience (avail your self to experience) love in the purest form you will begin to see that in loving there is a spirituality that can be attained. After all even in the BK Golden Age they seek to have unions. Here and now, upon solid ground we must admit that we are humans in need of the human touch for our very survival, as detachment is for objects not humans. Claro como Joel dice, siempre cuando uno tiene responsabilidad y claritud sana. Everything has consequences both positive and negative depending on any given condition. From a similar cultural base I point out the folks of Puerto Rico, who are the touchiest people on the planet and have many similarities with your Island. You are human and culturally you need that verbal connection and the physical touch. Si? So, Papito I hope these stories of people in need of love, compassion, finding the will to live, the ability to love and charting their own path as they go onto their final journey help, as in giving love we receive love. Tete P.S. Tomas the poem below is my gift to you as I found the meaning within your writings. El AMOR PURO NO TIENE PECADO ENGLISH VERSION BELOW Mi Corazon sentia, Mi Corazon dolia, Mi Corazon llamaba, Mi Corazon sufria, Mi Corazon sabia te buscaba, Mi Corazon te llamaba , Mi Corazon te toco y te encontro, Mi Corazon sonreia, Mi Corazon te reconocia, A un estoy aqui vivo otro dia, Para amar como mi Corazon queria, Buscando con passion otro dia. PURE LOVE HAS NO SIN My Heart felt, My Heart hurt, My Heart called out. My heart suffered, My heart knew I looked for you, My heart called you. My heart touched you and found you, My heart smiled, My heart recognized you. I am still alive another day, To love as my heart wanted and needed, Looking with passion for another day. Tete@2006
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: God, Love,and Sex |
tomas wrote:
It is possible to live with God and experience Human Sexual intercourse?
No. But you can always go visit him at the weekend and on holidays. Listen, it is bad enough trying to satisfy one woman and you are already thinking of moving in for a menage a trois with the Master of the Universe too. You've got ambitions. But seriously, before I go forward and respond to any of your question, could I just ask how much of this do you want to do " publically ". That is to say; expose, confess and take feedback from in a forum that is open and documented. Just to say, you can always use the Private Message [ PM ] function to contact individuals on the forum privately in a way that is not publically documented. read through some of the previous threads. Find the thinkers you like, feel free to contact any one of them off forum. Although due to the pressures of real life you may not get an answer straight away, and although each would give you a slightly different answer, I am sure that none would refuse to discuss matters with you in depth and honesty. I am just guessing that as more of a " Bro " than a " Bhai " you would probably take a lot more straight talk than the public decency of this forum might allow. And at the same time, this stuff that you are getting into is a lot deeper than you might be prepared to challenge. I would not want to be responsible for unravelling your ball of elastics bands as they all go pee-oow-ing all over the room. For me bit, I would just like to chip my issue which is that perhaps you have to start questioning whether " The Being " or " The Entity " the BKs are selling is the same in person or concept as either " The God " you have been culturally programmed to accept or the universal states of consciousness or being that you and others might have experienced in religion. The point I am making here is that you have ideas of " A God " in your head at a very deep sub-conscious level that you may not have examined deeply before. These ideas may be entirely different from any reality that is out there. None of us can tell you whether the god [ note case change ] the B.K.s are selling is actually even a God at all. Most of us would probably ask you to look at and examine the cultural pre-programming you had *BEFORE* Gyan that made you susceptible to accepting the BKs so wholeheartedly in the first place to mould your life around them. Not to mention your personal issues. If this thing is not even " a god ", never mind " The God ", then really you have no worries. It is up to you to sort things out yourself. I stress this as a sort of triangulated point between your own post and Tete's because both have similarities. That is to say the archetypal concept of " GOD " - and all the cultural and subconscious luggage / pros and cons that comes along with it - being predominant. I apologise for making an issue of this but neither Tete nor her mother nor the sources for normal God thoughts were BKs or ex-BK. The BK experience is something different. The language is the same but it is a tool being used to do something different and this makes you different, altered. The relationship with and effects of who or whatever the BKs consider to be God is entirely different from the kind of vague, platitudinous, general concepts of God that are widely held and recounted. Not everyone on this forum will agree with me on this issue [ of Shiva Baba being something but not actually being " God Father " ] but I make no apology for stressing the possibility that he/it may not be and that you can safely lighten up a bit. So, you might still consider a bit of de-programming of the whole God concept thing that you are living with. Go and read up on the whole Macrobiotics-Taoist-Buddhist-5 Element Theory-thing and leave Judeo-Christian God to mind his own business. Which leads me to say, like anything is this material realm, " the bigger the front, the bigger the back " to balance it. Yin and Yang. The more pleasure, the more craving; the deeper the patterns are ingrained in us. Purely from a level of biology and mechanics, there is the need to move to a cautious and considered balance. To examine perhaps the quality and natures of our desires and what it is that drives us to them. Joel has put to you a reasonable argument based around evolutionary biology. On the other hand, if you were brought up in a repressive environment, have hormonal imbalances that you have not told us or are all " yanged up " due to your physically lifestyle, then naturally you will seek the " yin " to balance that. The less risky thing to do would be to seek the yin within. It sounds to be you have been running on rocket fuel from one extreme to the other, beating yourself up in between and that sex and affection are not really the issue but just an outer symptom of something more intrinsic. To quote the Bible ; "When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child, I need affection like a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things and kept my hands outside my boxer shorts except for functional purposes." I Cor. xiii. 11 revisited. ex-l [ ... of who it is widely believed was born of an egg from some rare arctic reptile ]
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