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isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: Why I left the Brahma Kumaris |
Hello everyone! I just stumbled accross this site, never expecting to run into something like this! By way of introduction I'll share a bit of my story. I feel a bit as if I'm in some sort of netherworld -unable to give my heart fully to the BKs and yet continuing to follow many of the B.K. edicts including daily meditation. Why have I distanced myself? I missed being human. I missed feeling sadness, I missed being able to share my deepest thoughts with others. As a BK I always felt very alone. I told myself this was good, I was independent, I had Baba, who else did I need? It didn't feel right though. At some point I could no longer deny that the lifestyle was not nurturing an important part of me. I treasure my humanity. Shouldn't there be a way to grow spiritually by delving into and accepting that humanity rather than by trying to banish it? I was also disturbed by what seemed to me to be the elitism of the Brahma Kumaris. As a B.K, we are taught that we are a superior order of being and that the rest of humanity 'doesn't quite get it'. Yet this seems to me to fly in the face of true humility. I feel I have grown a great deal since I gave up the notion that only b.K.s had accurate insight into God. I do miss the certainty and the blissfulness of life as a BK. But I feel as if I've arrived at truths that go against B.K. teachings and there's no turning back. I wish one could somehow be part BK, but I think it's a practice you have to do whole hog or not at all. Any of you in a similar place?
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:34 am Post subject: |
Dear Isabel, Omshanti. Your views are frank and nice. But I would like to add something from my experience that, your experiences with BKs is not due to any fault with the knowledge that is being preached by Baba but due to its implementation. The knowledge being given by Baba is not to isolate anyone from the world but to turn the entire world into one family. It is the narrowmindedness of the human beings and their trend to create physical attributes of religion, which binds the Godly knowledge into limits. Baba has said in murlis that after you undergo the seven days course you can live in any part of the world and remember me and follow me, without being bound by any physical rules and regulations. The only requirement is purity of thoughts, speech and action. Baba's knowledge helps us in accepting the humanity as it is and even in transforming it. With regards arjuna
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:07 am Post subject: |
Dear Isabel, As a BK i think the aim in life is to become happy. If some one feels sadness and if I too become sad , then how can I make the other person happy?. So there is no point in crying by seeing the other person crying. As a BK how can one become ALONE? The supreme teacher is ALWAYS present with everyone who ever follows his DIRECTIONS. We are actually accepting HUMANITY ie why we are living in cities . {we are not going to forests to do our meditation} we are "Pravrithi marg" _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:42 pm Post subject: |
isabel wrote:
I was also disturbed by what seemed to me to be the elitism of the Brahma Kumaris. As a B.K, we are taught that we are a superior order of being and that the rest of humanity 'doesn't quite get it'. Yet this seems to me to fly in the face of true humility. I feel I have grown a great deal since I gave up the notion that only b.K.s had accurate insight into God.
Excellent post Isabel! I empathise with you and all of what you wrote resonates with me. I wish to give my reaction to all of it but, because of limited time (and energy ) I will have to do in little chunks at a time. Perhaps, if you are willing to dialogue with me, we can explore the issues you raised together, in an interactive way. For now, the little chunk I will deal with is in the quote from you that I have highlighted, above. By the way, Arjuna and Mitra, forget it! You are not speaking to John Public here. You are dealing with people who know and have experienced the BKs from the inside. So sappy plattitudes just won't cut it. As the XBK misision statement says, "don't expect to hear the party line here" Now, back to the quote from Isabel. Your observations about the BK "superiority" is dead on. That feeling of superiority is a part of the bliss or "intoxication" that people feel when they first "come into the knowledge". You feel special and very smart....because you think you understand something very important and very true....that the rest of the world just can't grasp. How special and elevated you are is frequently emphasized. YOU are the pure, special and beloved souls. The rest of the world is second class....we should have mercy on the poor souls. Lets take a closer look at this "superiority". Is it not in some ways a reflection of Hindu society itself? That great religion has many admirable aspects but its obsession with caste "status" is not one of them...to my mind anyway. It breeds inhumanity which, taken to extreme, results in millions of human beings being deemed "untouchable" and condemned to lives of misery and degradation. This is one of the things that Gandhi fought against....and lost. How is this relevant to BK Raj Yoga? Well, in the BK scheme, their path is actually the root of Hinduism....never mind all the talk about Adi Sanatan dharm...its the SAME thing. There is a warped interpretation of caste in the BK knowledge....with the Brahmins of Sangam Yug being the highest....."topknot" as they say. The point is that this is a belief or world view that is heavily bent on segregating and differentiating people. You are swans. The rest of the people in the world are storks. Swans should not mix with storks. You are pure. Storks are body conscious, impure and viscious. You are the chosen. They are the damned. Don't let your limbs touch theirs (Ever heard that in murlis?) The BK God is highly discriminatory. He is stepfather to billions!!! Even by BK estimates, the 900,000 chosen ones - the souls who will take birth at the begining of the Golden Age - represent less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the world's Hindu population. So where does this leave persons of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc background? Oh, we know the dogma about how such souls could have belonged to the diety religion and can now get a chance to "reconvert" or "transfer" back to the diety religion. This is BS of the highest order. Do you think that BKs really see Westerners that way? I can tell you that the significance of one's "bodily" background is well understood and taken note of by them....in spite of all the talk about "soul consciousness". There is a murli which actually states that the souls who remained Hindu in this last confluence age birth will have the edge in the new world of paradise. Westerners need to wisen up. This is all for now. Over to you Isabel. As I said, there is MUCH that I can say....but it will take time.
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
You are dealing with people who know and have experienced the BKs from the inside [I know that each soul has got his/her own experience. But we have to look into each matter positively] "untouchable" [Here the inner meaning is that we should not touch the vices. Even if a person is from a good, royal , elevated family, if he has some vices, then we should not touch them THROUGH OUR MIND.] The BK God is highly discriminatory. He is stepfather to billions!!! Even by BK estimates, the 900,000 chosen ones - the souls who will take birth at the begining of the Golden Age - represent less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the world's Hindu population. So where does this leave persons of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc background? [We have members from other religion also] Oh, we know the dogma about how such souls could have belonged to the diety religion and can now get a chance to "reconvert" or "transfer" back to the diety religion. [your above point is absolutely RIGHT] Do you think that BKs really see Westerners that way? [We are seeing the SOUL not the BODY] I can tell you that the significance of one's "bodily" background is well understood and taken note of by them....in spite of all the talk about "soul consciousness". [No body has become PERFECT YET. SO there may be weakness in some souls. We are all trying to become perfect. We are studying for that purpose.] There is a murli which actually states that the souls who remained Hindu in this last confluence age birth will have the edge in the new world of paradise. [It is also said that All souls are given the same teaching regardless of their caste, creed, religion, country etc. So there is no sense in that point . If at all the murli states like that kindly refer the date so that I can confirm it.] Westerners need to wisen up. [Not only them but also indians . Actually Indians will wake up only after hearing from their western brothers. ] _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: |
Wow Paul, your post was like a breath of fresh air. It feels so good to talk honestly and openly my doubts. Arjuna and Mitra, thank you, I know as b.K.s you are only trying to do what is best for me and I send you warm wishes. Right now I feel the need to speak my thoughts though and voice the concerns I felt I could voice to no one for so long. Even posting is scary. For so long I felt that to voice qualms would bring punishment, that I wasn't being faithful to Baba if I said anything about the B.K.s that could possibly be construed as doubt. But I think God requires that we be honest and give voice to our doubts. Let me make clear to the b.k.s reading this that I know this path has been wonderous for many of you and I'm not seeking to take away from that. I honor that. It's just not the right thing for me right now. Back to the issue at hand. Excellent insights, Paul. You're right, about how the elitism contributes to that wonderful, wonderful feeling of being God's chosen one. I will admit to having reveled in that intoxication. Yet I am bothered by exactly the issues you raise. The part of me that I try to listen to for truth says we all are fundamentally equal. Other peoples inner voices may tell them differently, but this is what mine is telling me. I just couldn't manage to quite swallow the notion of a hierachical Golden age. This notion that somehow people would be satisfied to have a destiny as servants and that this would be a perfect world. In my perfect world there are no masters and there are no servants. Okay, I'll stop here in case you are still logged in
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:20 pm Post subject: |
isabel wrote:
Even posting is scary. For so long I felt that to voice qualms would bring punishment, that I wasn't being faithful to Baba if I said anything about the B.K.s that could possibly be construed as doubt. But I think God requires that we be honest and give voice to our doubts.
Isabel, someone said "There is nothing to fear but fear itself". That said, I can well understand your trepidation. It is interesting to note, as another member did, that quite a few who have registered as XBK members are yet to post. One wonders... I would like to address the whole issue of FEAR IN THE BK MOVEMENT. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. So its not surprising that when newbies come in contact with the BKs everything is sugar and spice and all thats nice. The smiles abound and only little dribbles of "knowledge" are spooned out.....nothing that would upset you or put you off. That's all a part of their "yukti" or tactics. Heck, these days it may not even start with knowledge. It might be living values or some such innocuous fare. However, as time goes by, the soul gets drawn in, the discipline increases and the fears are instilled. Fear of suffering for past bad karma that is not burnt off. Fear of punishment for displeasing Baba in one of inummerable ways. Fear of not measuring up to his impossibly high standards. Fear of not making adequate "effort" resulting in a low "status" in the Golden Age. Fear of not even making the Golden Age, and starting one's first birth in the less attractive Silver Age. Fear of failing the test "in the final moments". Fear of painful bodily suffering during the terrible time of world destruction by nuclear war and natural calamities. That "time of destruction" is hammered home in murlis and hangs like a malignant cloud over your head. Fear of punishment even after leaving the body - one begins to hear about the "Tribunal" that will review one's actions in this life, pass judgment and then dispense stern punishment. This, coupled with the 24/7 commitment and demands for constant "remembrance" and "service" begins to wear the soul down. After a while, the price of "going to heaven" seems to be a bit much.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: |
Yes, I think fear is used to encourage compliance. And I think this links back to our earlier discussion regarding the elitism of the B.K.s One establishes a link with Baba, the experience is truly wonderful. We are then told we are special and unique because we've had that experience. Then we are told of all the things we cannot do if we want to avoid becoming inpure or dishonoring the B.K.s and the list seemed to grow with every murli. You treasure that feeling of specialness and you don't want to dishonor that being that has brought so much joy. Out of fear of endangering that relationship and losing that specialness you follow the directions in the murli. You think, this joy I have can't be explained by reason, therefore although to not speak my doubts aloud goes against reason, perhaps I need to trust. That thought process is what I think actually goes on when 'the opening of the intellect' is said to take place. You stop listening to your doubts and start taking what is said in the murlis on blind faith. For me this was a huge step, I'd never been able to have faith like that before. Yet there was one conversation I had with another B.K. that began to weigh heavily on my mind. This was shortly afterthe woman in Germany, someone who lead a splinter group from the B.K.s, was arrested for trying to lead her groups' members to mass suicide. The B.K. I was speaking with commented that the members of the cult had obviously not used their powers of discernment. At that time I thought, jeesh, I've had to suspend all my powers of discernment to 'imbibe knowledge', I'm in no better shape. I often wondered, what would I do if for some reason I was called to Mt. Abu because we were given the message that the world was about to end... What I felt to be the use of fear to encourage blind faith disturbed me. I wanted so much to enter into a real dialogue with someone about the fact that I felt God should be pure love, why would God teach fear? Why would God threaten? Wasn't the experience of bliss enough of a carrot? Why was it necessary to drag out a stick? It didn't seem like God should spend so much time chastising...
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject: |
Isabel, that German woman's name was Heide Fittkau-Garthe. She was a bit of a flake....to put it mildly...and (talk about irony) a psychologist by training. The attempted suicide fiasco happened in Tenerife, a Portuguese island in the Azores. You can read more about it here: http://www.trancenet.org/groups/news/rogers/9801.shtml Of course, the BKs cannot be blamed for what she did. Anyway, back to elitism. This time, I will address it from the aspect of "VIP service". I am sure you know this is a big thing with the BKs. And you probably know the rationales for it. I was told that they emphasize this because: (1) People look up to, take note of, and are influenced by what leaders do. In a similar vein, celebrities are good to meet and mingle with, as they attract attention and crowds. (2) The way to kill a snake (so to speak) is by getting to its head. Now, (1) and (2) may be true. But do the ends justify the means? The thing is this: what may have started out as an innocent tactic (or "yukti") in doing "service" has now become deeply embedded in the culture of the BKs. They love nothing better than to show photos of themselves with this Minister, that celebrity or this millionaire. These "worldly" VIPs may be as vicious as ever (by BK definition) but the red carpet is rolled out for them and they are given royal treatment. On the other hand, sincere BK followers who may be simple, of moderate means and undistinguished are given short shrift. To his credit, SB will sometimes chime in and say "I am the Lord of the poor". However, the focus on the powerful, wealthy and influential has become so strong that it is sometimes difficult to accept that this is a truly spiritual organization. I am sure that I am not telling you something that you don't already know. The question is, when will the kowtowing to the "worldly" powerful end?
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:08 pm Post subject: |
Your discussion of ends justifying means really strikes a chord - and it's helping me think through some things. It seems like one of my main 'beefs' (hah coming from a vegetarian! ) with the B.K. movement is exactly the issue you raise, the willingness to have ends justify means. The B.K.s set out two tasks for themselves, which I think are at loggerheads. The first is to be a pure movement that nurtures the spiritual growth of its followers and remains above human pettiness. The second is to manage an organization that MUST grow if it is not to violate the murli's declaration of how history is to proceed. That's how I think I justified a lot that I was uncomfortable with to myself. I reasoned that God must operate through human beings & the only way to orchestrate a spiritual movement among human beings is to ask them to build an organization with all the human trappings. Because this organization must reach as many people as possible, in a falliable world, it must behave as organizations seeking to add members in an impure world do ie kowtowing to VIPs, squelching dissent, encouraging service. Therefore to me Brahma Baba could remain infalliable and whatever the B.K.s did was okay even though it seemed at adds with the very values they preached. Also things in the Murli that seemed off color to me, such as the threats of punishment for dissent & the whole VIP service thing, could be justified because the B.K.s were an organizational entity where members needed to tow the line if they were to grow quickly. Yes, where does it end? To be honest I wish there was a way to be a b.K. without all the organizational propaganda nonsense, without the assumption of a less-than-ideal (and less than believable!) sounding Golden age , without the notion that B.K.s are the only ones who have the true experience of God, and with a true emphasis on equality. I experienced tremendous spiritual growth with the b.K.s. I didn't need a Golden age to make my sacrifices worth it, but I needed honesty and I needed to not be part of a propaganda machine. Thanks so much for putting the time into this Paul, it's really helping me think through this stuff. If there are other XBKs out there that would like to sort through stuff, even if and especially if you see things differently, please, hop on in!
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:34 pm Post subject: |
isabel wrote:
To be honest I wish there was a way to be a b.K. without all the organizational propaganda nonsense, without the assumption of a less-than-ideal (and less than believable!) sounding Golden age , without the notion that B.K.s are the only ones who have the true experience of God, and with a true emphasis on equality. I experienced tremendous spiritual growth with the b.K.s. I didn't need a Golden age to make my sacrifices worth it, but I needed honesty and I needed to not be part of a propaganda machine.
Thanks for the invite to join in. I think I know where you're coming from. Yes, there are some admirable aspects of the BKs and I can see how you would want to retain those, and some connection. However, as you remarked earlier, in their path it's either whole hog or nothing. In fact, Baba has said that one of the things he likes (!) about the "foreigners" is that they are either fully in or completely out. In other words, no half way house. I guess its like saying you can't be "slightly" pregnant Thinking about it now, this XBK site gives the flavour of the BKs, without all the extraneous "janjhat" (hassle) and without having to surrender your God given intellect and powers of discernment. Actually, to be frank, I think for many the tipping point becomes the whole "purity" (celibacy) business. And worse if they are married and their partner is non BK! Then there is the implausabilty, not just of the BK heaven, but of the whole 5K cycle concept. Have you read the "Dinosaur dillema" thread? Now try getting THAT camel through the needle's eye! In my topic "The Brahma Kumaris as a reflexive tradition" I mentioned that the writer John Walliss also discussed the "ambiguity" in the BK strategy, particulary in the west. In fact, Liz Hodgkinson (who is very sympathetic to the BKs) also alludes to it in her book "peace and purity" The ambigity, in fact a contradiction, is that on the one hand they are telling the insiders that time is short, the end can come at any time, prepare, prepare, prepare....and on the other hand they are hob nobbing with Tom, Dick and Behari...in projects of a worldly flavour. To say the least, I think this must send mixed and confusing signals to the BK congregation. You can't have it both ways...be world rejecting internally, and world embracing externally. About the heaven thing. If we stop and THINK only for a few moments what it means, we may get an insight. People are living on this earth. You mean to say that children will NEVER fall down and bruise themselves, will never cry? And that's just a sample. One brother I knew once mused if the deities would go to the bathroom in the golden age. I think he was told "sure they will." However, "number one" will be like nectar, and "number two" will be like halwa (with or without raisins and cherries in it, I cannot now recall
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:06 am Post subject: |
. Let me make clear to the b.k.s reading this that I know this path has been wonderous for many of you and I'm not seeking to take away from that. I honor that. It's just not the right thing for me right now. [Isabel- this is the right time for you to become SOUL conscious. Once a soul becomes SOUL conscious then all the problems will disappear] In my perfect world there are no masters and there are no servants. [You are right -IN Golden age there may be servants and masters but there is no feeling that this person is a servant or that person is a master etc. In that period, every body treats every one with love and respect _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
joy Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 9 |
Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: Proof in the Fruit |
Very interesting reading these replies - however, one point stands out - everyone seems to agree that the meditation and basic teachings (apart from detailed murli teachings as per cycle, etc) make people feel fantastic or least much better than they had before meditating and learning a little bit about their true nature. As Jesus said "judge a man not by the fruit of his mouth (or words) but by his fruit of action (or what he does)". The fruit here would appear to be, at least initially, evidence of improvement of experience. Soo, as so many seem to be saying also, how to reconcile the ambivalencies. Because, I for one, do not want to let go of that wonderful connection to God and simple solution of returning to one's pure spiritual self. It definitely works!
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:13 am Post subject: |
The latter may be less "blissed out", may even show some angst, but their thinking is logical and they speak straight from the heart. [No body is "OUT" from the sea of Knowledge Because it is ETERNAL and another point is -THERE is only ONE shop which is selling this knowledge. So every one has to come to this shop at the END ] _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: |
Paul wrote:
Quote:
Isabel, that German woman's name was Heide Fittkau-Garthe. She was a bit of a flake....to put it mildly...
I remember that sister from a visit to Madhuban in the late '70s. She played a leading role in 'double foreigner' service. Does anyone know why she left? _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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