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bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Brahma Kumaris or Kumar ? female vs male imbalance |
Whilst a previous post raised the issue of difference between bharatwassis<-->double foreigners, this time I am going to ask should BKs be in equal proportions, half Brahma Kumaris and half Brahma Kumars ? If each BK is going to the perfect form of Lakshmi and Narayan (i.e Vishnu), then we are to possess both "female" and "male" characteristics, to be both motherly AND fatherly. Yes, I know that women have been disempowered over the centuries (and so Shiv Shakti Kumaris are put in front with the Pandav brothers standing firm behind them). However, in BK there a many more kumaris than kumars, so shouldn't there be a balance in any organisation ? Even the BKs propose that in Golden Age the family will be made up of father, mother, and two children, one son and one daughter. And if this birth you are female, then the next you are male....then how is it that Lekraj will go into another male body (Krishna) and Mama into another female body (Radhe) ?
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
I missed mentioning this point inthe previous post - isn't it this imbalance one of the main reasons for the BK to be so badly organised ? PS I'm all for women empowerment, but not overempowerment !
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: Brahma Kumaris or Kumar ? female vs male imbalance |
Bansy, You are a heavy hitter when you come out to bat Girl!!! From a scientific view I believe I recall in one of my classes that the imbalance of female to male ratio can be a disaster. When there are more males wars break out…and some one help me out here with the more female to male ratio… what was that the end result there? While I am no expert (don’t know much except what I observed) in the BKs I will offer my two pennies on the topic. First, I think it is unnatural to ask some one to be something other than what they are: males/men. One can work with them, appreciate them without reducing them into androgynous beings. One can appreciate the love that males have to offer: platonic, fatherly, brotherly, friend and as a mate. Secondly, I don’t think women should have men at their feet (figuratively speaking) based on an organizational chart. What if the man actually has more spirituality than the woman above him or more wisdom? What then? We can not right a wrong by doing wrong. We can not have men wishing they could be women so that they could move up the ladder or be closer to God. Nor is it a positive thing for women in power to abuse that very power to break some ones spirit because they are “MEN”. How is humiliating some one that is trying to come close to God serving a loving purpose? In denying the beauty of males (that manly thing they have going on) do we not cut our selves off from that very delightful energy? I can recall EB being a bit wussy (not yet in touch fully with that male energy that had been suppressed for years), I used to think it was too much hen pecking (submissive behavior/dropping ones intellect and differing to the authority of the senior women) and how I watched as the transformation happened in about six months. When the transformation happened I noticed anger come to the surface (it actually made me smile as I felt we had hit some thing real)……it was good to see as anger, happiness, sadness and love are all human emotions. Suppressing them doesn’t make them non-existent or bad. Seeing true emotions come to the surface made it real, made it work. It was comforting to see as it is part of the art of being human. I think as a woman I can appreciate a man that allows a woman her freedom to grow, create and find purpose. At the same time I still want the man to be a man. It may seem a tough order but it is possible. Regards, Tete P.S. I do hope none of you MEN were offended by the wussy word. I am open to any word you may offer that will convey the same meaning. Please note that I did speak about this with him at the time and throughout the years and he doesn’t deny it. He acknowledges that it was what everyone was trying to be (attain).
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
I was in Japan for a business trip, and on the subway trains, there are "women-only" carriages. Apparently, there are lots of male molesters on the trains, so the authorities decided to give humble Japanese women their private carriages. However, though there are men who google at women, but there are also those who are embarassed when fully confronted. And there are also women who google at men..... Just having the sexes segregrated does not tackle the problem of equality. If we are made to sit in meditation, in the dining room, etc, in male, female, male etc in order, then maybe we girls may learn to be less bitchy and the men can be less...err.."manly" ? Or girls can learn more about the male characteristics instead of guessing them and vice-versa. In BK knowledge, it is taught that one has to be an "all rounder". Same applies with bharatwassis and DFs mix, if the BK is one divine family, then everyone sits at the table mixed. If respect is for all, then BK men need to respect BK women and vice-versa. And God is genderless anyway.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Brahma Kumaris or Kumar ? female vs male imbalance |
Bansy, As you know I am not an XBK but probably have done more of the BK beliefs than some that just hang out for a couple of weeks vs. my association close on two decades! I am always open to new ideas and careful to think them through….what a shocker to find out I had been indoctrinated and didn’t get the disclosure form! So, if that is a tad “BITCHY” I will accept that as being justifiably so. My point here having close friends that are gay and being accepting of them as a couple is that I would not try to change them from what they feel/who they are. Nor would I try to become manly to be closer to GOD. I am who I am and happy with that. I think some things can be taken to the extreme and the long term consequences can be severe. As to visiting the centers, that didn’t go well for me…not good at following orders. My first visit was my last. It pains me to see some one like Teresa asked if she is “HAPPY”. My experience with the center visit was that I truly did not believe they were happy nor in any way trying to congratulate me on my union. The first year is hard enough…arguing about the tooth paste (one insists on the cap on the other could care less) and the adjustment phase to living together. Throw in some psychic dwellers within the marriage and it can become a storm. I only wish that people would see it is not about them when it gets out of control. We all bring our baggage and I would just like it to be said that if the bags don’t belong to you toss them back: “Excuse me, I believe these our yours!” Besides who gives these “enlightened” souls the right to become judge and jury. Did this man not marry her for who she is? Complete, happy and loving! I guess I was lucky in that at the very least I had a 10+ XBK and an 8+ XBK on my side to help and guide me when things got rough. Plenty of pep talks! I don’t know if I could have survived without those two acknowledging that I was a spiritual being, a loving being and that I had every right to be who I was. The older one defended my right to worship as I saw fit…what an evolved man he was and still is. He also told EB that he should enjoy the very essence of me and love me for me. In closing I see nothing wrong with appreciating the beauty of a man or a woman. I tell all my friends they are beautiful, that I love them and I do respect them. So, no hang ups here….ignorance can be bliss. Regards, Tete
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I am who I am and happy with that.
That's one of the best lines I've heard for a long time.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: Brahma Kumaris or Brahma Kumar? |
There is the factor of reverse bias in BKSU. I have had to deal with on a personal level. Sometimes some BK sisters allow the ying or yang energy to get to the greater part of them. There is an unbalanced relationship between males and females and some BK females think men as a whole are testosterone overdosed robots who are not smart, even those with advanced degrees! The attitude of some BK sisters to maleness is unhealthy and can and does pose an obstacle in the service of souls. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Brahma Kumaris or Kumar ? female vs male imbalance |
bansy wrote:
should BKs be in equal proportions, half Brahma Kumaris and half Brahma Kumars ?
in the golden age there will be surely equal proportions between the genders, and so there should be now also - this is balance. In practice i believe the proportions are much more even in India than with 'double foreigners' - i think this is to do with culture: the Indian culture results in women being treated badly by men, and India too, like Japan, has train carriages for women only, on the local trains, so they can travel without being harassed. The BK 'reversal' makes a lot of sense in India - and in Madhuban you can see it working well, as brothers run the kitchens and pretty much "keep the house" while the sisters are up in front teaching and leading. There is a need for a reversal, but in the western world in particular, that issue has been well addressed for decades now, and even in the murlis Baba says "double foreign sisters are like brothers" and this is a compliment, as he also says that first we become sisters and brothers, then we become brothers - this is not a gender thing, but means we move beyond gender consciousness. However in the west the sisters have taken on the male role of being in front, but retained a firm grip on the female role of being the backbone, leaving no role for the brothers, hence we all leave. In Scotland there are 2 brothers regularly attending the four centres, and some 20 or so sisters. This is not healthy, and the result is that these centres and the BK organisation do not progress. If sisters are to take the male role, then the brothers must be allowed to have the female role. But really it is long past time we all moved on and all became a brotherhood, beyond body consciousness. As you say, Bansy
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If each BK is going to the perfect form of Lakshmi and Narayan (i.e Vishnu), then we are to possess both "female" and "male" characteristics, to be both motherly AND fatherly.
and
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God is genderless anyway
and so are we all in our true consciousness of souls. We should play our male and female role games with fun and laughter, and celebrate the differences in our roles, and be ourselves, as Tete indicates. The purpose of the BK role reversal is to bring us to a golden aged state of the genders being very similar - ie sensitive men and strong women.
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And if this birth you are female, then the next you are male....then how is it that Lekraj will go into another male body (Krishna) and Mama into another female body (Radhe) ?
very good point - and
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Even the BKs propose that in Golden Age the family will be made up of father, mother, and two children, one son and one daughter.
and this is clearly a natural balance. These last two points both illustrate that you cannot take the murli literally - we are to change genders from birth to birth, but not if you are Baba or Mama (who we are supposed to become like...) - and the murlis say every golden aged family will have two and only two children - this would mean the population could not expand at all, yet the murlis claim the population expands continually several-fold until the end of the silver age. Such basic and blatant contradictions show that the murli cannot be taken literally as the perfect divine word of God, but must be taken metaphorically, and with a "pinch of salt", as guidance and inspiration only. True revelation comes from direct divine connection, intuition, and soul to soul communication - it cannot be encapsulated within the limitations of written lanquage, but can only be hinted at.
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In BK knowledge, it is taught that one has to be an "all rounder". Same applies with bharatwassis and DFs mix, if the BK is one divine family, then everyone sits at the table mixed.
I agree whole-heartedy - everyone should sit at the table mixed. These artificial segregations are an Indian culture thing - happens across Inidan society - at public meetings the men sit on one side and the women on the other. Likewise the caste system separates society into different levels classes. The BKs copy the male/female segregation in a situation where it is wholly inappropriate (i am a souil, genderless) - the segregation emphasises body-consiousness, which is counter productive. And the BKs emulate the Indian caste system with their multi levels - Dadis/seniors/teachers/double foreigners /bharatwassis - and there are different dining rooms for the different levels! Yes indeed, everyone should sit at the table mixed.
Hanuman wrote:
The attitude of some BK sisters to maleness is unhealthy and can and does pose an obstacle in the service of souls.
I have experienced this, not from every sister by any means, and I am sure many sisters would say the attitude of some BK males is "unhealthy and can and does pose an obstacle in the service of souls".... but because organisationally the sisters have the upper hand, they are the ones left sitting in the house alone, while the brothers wander the streets disillusioned, muttering dark oaths about the "sisters" (and i have certainly been there myself!) I believe that there is an even proportion of male and female bodied Brahmin souls and that the unequal proportions seen within the organisation (outside of India at any rate) are because the brothers stay away - and have to stay away, or be crushed and forced into wearing a mask and playing a false role that is not really a role at all. And I know there are some brotherly sisters who experience this same problem. It is not really a gender thing, but a case of people in power being selfish or stubborn and strictly following rules that are based on the iron-aged degraded Indian culture, rather than on shrimat or spirituality. There are a lot of silly games being played and God sits the subtle worlds laughing at our antics.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: Brahma Kumaris or Kumar? Female vs male imbalance |
Howiemac, Thank you for straightening that out for me as I often don’t understand where all the conflict begins. I do notice that Western contributions are frequently forgotten or the ACT of ERASURE (coined by a black sociologist from Brown University I believe) has been done and we are poised to think that original ideas did not inspire from the west. To take away the history of a people is to conquer them. The true love of God is by noting that every culture has value and to notice/appreciate their contributions to the world. On the cultural aspect of things I would like to put this out there as food for thought from The Journey from Success to Significance: ON SECOND THOUGHT…..
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Thomas Carlyle called “Civil Disobedience’ the one truly original American contribution to western civilization. More importantly, its ideas made a lasting impact on the world. Fifty years after Thoreau wrote his essay, Mohandas Gandhi, India’s greatest leader, was inspired by Thoreau’s ideas on civil disobedience. And it set him on a course of action that led to India’s independence from British rule. One hundred years after Thoreau’s death, Martin Luther King, Jr., based his practices for advancing civil rights on the words of Thoreau and the courageous example of Gandhi.
Howiemac, you are centered in explaining and sorting (lucid) things out for those of us that have trouble grasping the intricacies of the conflict in the mixing of the BK religion and the Indian culture. As someone that had to sit for hours on end as a child at the State Capitol to fight for desegregation with our Black leader Clifford Boxely I am often floored (outraged) when some one suggests that we have separate accommodations in public transit. People will always find some justification to do things to set people apart. I am respectful of cultures but I am not willing to go back. I think we are capable of sitting together and interacting as functional enlightened beings. I can remember putting forth the idea to my husband that our baby have a black baby doll and explaining why I wanted to do this. He agreed and I found it most odd/disappointing over the course of the years how many people felt the need to point out that “the baby had a black baby doll”, as if I was blind and couldn’t notice. Today I see others doing this in my family and it brings me great delight to know that the torch has been passed on. We can talk the talk but until we put it into practice it doesn’t become a reality. We must love others as we love our selves and see them as beautiful. Change begins with one. Regards, Tete
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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The BK 'reversal' makes a lot of sense in India
Yes, this reversal applies in India and for Indian locals. I have heard that approx only 5% of BKs will be double foreigners at the end of this Confluence Age. The rest are bharatwassis. Though not heard this from murlis. During a BapDada season gathering, the numbers attending makes this percentage seems approximate.
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sisters would say the attitude of some BK males is "unhealthy
and
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artificial segregations are an Indian culture thing
One brother on business abroad came up to me who wanted to learn about Raja Yoga and go on a course. He had attended many of the public mega programmes in India. He was very humble and always apologetic and wanted to be forgiven for his misgivings, had a family and understood his responsibilities and his anger as his weakness. He certainly seemed genuine to try as he was on business abroad working for his family. But he had a beard and low voice and had wild dark hair. Maybe he smoked and drank too. He never managed to get into any of the centres near where he lived in India always stopped at the door. Though the overseas centres allowed him.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
The soul is just pure living light energy. It is the roles which we play which can be either male or female. So, in my opinion, it does not really matter whether one is male or female, just as it should not matter whether we were white or black. But I suppose when we are in a battle, it can or would matter. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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it does not really matter whether one is male or female, just as it should not matter whether we were white or black.
Agreed. This applies when we are truly soul conscious 100%. Except that we are not, and hence conflicts arise every corner of this world, and even within the BK organisation. Thus the murlis almost always keep repeating that all BKs are brothers, male souls, but yet differences still arise. Actually, if we could away with the term "brother" or "sister", then BKs would be even more incognito.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
bansy wrote:
Actually, if we could away with the term "brother" or "sister", then BKs would be even more incognito.
I agree with this. In fact, I am also aware of the problems that BKs can face because Brahma Baba (a man) had boldly and firmly turn the table up-side down, thus putting the women in the forefront. I can also see that the women who are involved with administration and who are making decision in the Brahma Kumaris, are not that bold. They adapt and adjust to everything and thus people are categorised into groups (divisional and national) to make sure that everyone is comfortable. They even have a second headquarters in London. Would a man have allowed this? I am not sure. But what Brahma Baba had done through putting the women first has its benefits. Both non-BKs and BKs have voiced their opinion that the men have been turned into women and that the women have been turned into men in the Brahma Kumaris. Frankly speaking, I know that this has given a lot of men and women test-papers. When I saw BK brothers making statements like, "Hey, I'm a man you know" and then continuing to put the women in front, I would think that they were really great in being able to do that. And you know, God has said that it is the weak ones who will be involved with admistration at the end and so the fact that these brothers were able to put the women in front only speaks for itself. I also had a lot of test papers because women were supposed to move forward. Before gyan, people were saying that I was an achiever, a survivor, a person with great determination, etc. But after I came into the Brahma Kumaris, when people did not know me, they had categorised me as one who did not have the ability to move forward, etc like as if I was one of those useless women who just sat at the back and watched. I had just quietly watched all these but I have to admit that I had quite a lot of test papers. But I also could see that many women were taking advantage of the fact that women were being put first. Some were interpreting this to give themselves status. But time revealed a lot of things. And I know that time will reveal a lot more. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: |
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women were taking advantage of the fact that women were being put first
Yes, because that is a sign of that particular soul(s) being insecure. I always feel that God made us all free and we are free souls who come and go, over course of time, however long you can let that time frame to be (which therefore is eternity). So setting rules OUTSIDE what God says (i.e. in BK terminology, shrimat) is basically meaning one soul taking controlling of another and taking away the freedom originally given to us by God. I do not know if an organisational rule, such as placing women first, is what God had intended or whether Brahma Baba had intended. I don't think the murlis actually stipulate this (does anyone have better knowledge on this ?), although there is more upliftment for BKumaris more than BKumars generally in the murli. I don't think God would ask birds who fly freely the need to distinguish themselves when it is natural for them that the hen to watch the nest whilst the cock went hunting for food. Similarly for lions, rabbits, etc. I DO think that God would set the rules and disciplines such as removing the 5 five vices, setting the 10 commandments, etc, as there is no gender involved in these rules, and practicing these rules/disciplines over time would become our natural way (i.e original sanskars) and hence our true path to freedom (nirvana, liberation, other shore etc) regardless male or female sanskars. We live by rules, only that are judged by humans, who are imperfect, rather than rules judged by God, otherwise we'll would
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adapt and adjust to everything and thus people are categorised
, and so we just keep making more mistakes instead letting ourselves be free.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I do not know if an organisational rule, such as placing women first, is what God had intended or whether Brahma Baba had intended.
Well, I was told by seniors that Brahma Baba had foreseen through visions etc that the Brahma Kumaris would be playing a leading role at the end. I would say that Brahma Baba had got indications from God that he should help to put the sisters first. Brahma Baba was keen on acting as an instrument of God and in obeying God's orders. So I would say that, based on what has to happen in the drama, God had instructed and brought about the situation where women are put in the forefront in the Brahma Kumaris. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
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