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Who is Shiv Baba? A question of Faith. Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
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administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48 |
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:21 am Post subject: |
joy wrote:
My 13 year old son has been trying to help me add an avatar from outside sites and none of them are accepted even tho' fitting the size requirements. Can you help us?
We are aware of this problem with importation of avatar images. It is not your son's fault, and we apologise for the inconvenience. This is a technical issue relating to the site's software that we hope to resolve sometime in the near future. In the meanwhile may we suggest that you first delete the image that you tried to load and then select an avatar from our (admittedly limited) avatar gallery?
daviniamaher1 Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10 |
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject: |
If not, are there at least any audio recordings of SB speaking through BB? It would be intersting to see and hear the difference.
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I am sure that there are some audio as I remember hearing them on the 18th Jan. I don't know if any transcripts in English are available but I would love to hear a translation of them. That was one time I felt closest to "GOD" For all of us who came longafter 1969 it is the best substitution.
tigresslilly Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 5 |
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: Who is Shiv Baba |
Who is Shiv Baba is still a million $$ question to many of us.We are told in the Bk path that the only soul that has a name is Shiv (meaning -supreme benefactor) and that is the only soul that has a name, all other souls get a name when they adopt a body. Why does only that particular soul gets a name and a title?? Also how did that soul get the title of "supreme benefactor"- Did he perform some great deeds for mankind that no others could have done?? So, again the question arises who is Shiv Baba, and in particular who, and what is Baba?? The word "Baba" means grandfather in hindi, and so we can also imply that he exists in a physical body in order to have that grandfatherly relationship; or else it will be immpossible to have a raltionship with just a point of light. So the word "Shiv Baba" means the combined form of God- the meeting of soul(non-physical), and the body(physical).
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 7:30 am Post subject: |
When I was first introduced to knowledge, when I joined the Brahma Kumaris in 1994, I accepted that we were meditating upon God and that He was a point of light. I had accepted that there was only one God and that He was a point of light. I am not sure if I experienced God's presence until 1996. Before 1996, I had such wonderful experiences when I was meditating in the red light in the center and all my thoughts were to go and sit there for meditation. I was first introduced to meditation in red light during a public programme which was held by the Brahma Kumaris here in Malaysia. It was so lovely that I was waiting to do it again and had eagerly signed up to do the 7 days course. Then, in 1996, when I began to see and experience God's presence and help, I began to think that He was the God of the Brahma Kumaris. I had only had this thought that He was the God of the Brahma Kumaris for a short while because soon I began to experience His presence as the one and only God of the whole world who everyone was turning to, praying to and who was helping the people of the whole corporeal world. I began to experience His Might and Power. A few times, fear had come into me after those experiences because of the wrongs that I had done and because bhakti instilled, into us, the "fear of being punished by God" for our wrong doings. I was a Hindu before I joined the Brahma Kumaris. However, with time, as I saw God helping me and saw His intention to only help me, I never experienced that fear again. My faith in God is based on my own experiences, not on hearsay. My faith that it is God who is leading the Brahma Kumaris is also based on my own experiences and not on hearsay When I began to make intense effort, in 1996, I began to experience His presence (the presence of the Supreme Soul). I had drowned myself into knowledge and I think this had enabled me to experience His presence.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: |
bkry wrote:
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I had drowned myself into knowledge and I think this had enabled me to experience His presence.
. This illustrates the point I make in the original post, bkry. When we become 'drowned in the knowledge' we also shut our eyes - indeed that is the kind of faith expected of us according to this knowledge from its inception and as explained by Kumarka Dadi. The post you are in now was written by one who had such faith. Like you and so many others, I had wonderful experiences from the inception. I remained 'in gyan' for about 8 years before beginning to see 'cracks in the walls of faith' (if I may borrow a line from one of the foreign-niwasis' songs). I am familiar with the euphoria of your first experiences in the 'red light meditation.' I remember once, in 1980, we had a booth at a National Exhibition where we were introducing the knowledge to the public. People were emerging from the experience somewhat overwhelmed and cautioning those who had lined up to go into the booth: "Be careful" one youngster declared "that thing is powerful! You see, now I don't even know where I put my shoes!" Yes, bkry, ultimately, it is our individual experience that we have to rely on. That is what our faith rests on. The point I am making in these posts though is that, for many of us, we arrive at a boundary of questions which we can either ignore or face up to. We can ignore the boundary and choose to live in a contented faith within the knowledge; or we can decide to face some fundamental questions that arise within us - whether by churning or by contradictory experiences - and explore answers beyond the boundary. What matters is our honesty and our courage. If one is honestly satisfied with a path chosen - whether BK, PBK or otherwise - then what matters is to live it to the best of one's ability. If we do not experience the path as integrated and authentic or, in BK terms, if it 'does not fit into our intellect', then we are obliged to continue seeking until our experiences bring us into full harmony with God. As I suggested at the end of my reply to your unique post 'Gathering of Shankars', what matters is our essential worth in the eyes of God. Take care and God Bless _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
OM shanti! It is important to have faith but not blind faith. Using ones intellect, churning the knowledge and experience are very important. Another thing is learning to accept ones role in thie wonderful drahma. Take Care, pbk George
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: |
PBK George wrote
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Another thing is learning to accept ones role in thie wonderful drahma.
True. That may be so from a BK/PBK point of view. Yet, according to their versions, there's the paradoxical statement "everything is pre-ordained yet still to be ordained." I think in the end the jewel of contentment will fit best in the honest heart. Namaste. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:15 pm Post subject: |
I think I was lucky that I had been greatly interested in psychic research before I came to gyan. Before gyan, I had tried to develop my psychic abilities so that I could easily perceive when I was getting God's help. But God's help was obvious at that time, when I needed something it would come to me. Even the Brahma Kumaris came before me in a similar manner when I needed help. I was lucky that my psychic abilities enabled me to ascertain that it was the very same God who was Shiv Baba in the Brahma Kumaris. The only difference was that before gyan, I was not sure as to who was giving me the help though I knew that it was from God. What I am trying to say is that I could not place a form as an image for God and I did not know Him like how if I know Him on a personal basis now (like how friends know each other). Knowing each other, friends can understand each other, you know. But I did not have this kind of relationship with God before gyan. At that time, God was something abstract and unknown but I knew that He existed and I knew that He help was helping me. After coming to the Brahma Kumaris, the greatest thing that had happened was the recognition that I am now facing the God who had been helping me all those days before gyan. This recognition did not take place through just one or two experiences. I was able to see the recognition through many experiences and events that were taking place. For example, previously, I could just see the help that I was getting. When I came into the Brahma Kumaris, I began to see the Source as well, from whom the help was coming. When I saw souls wondering if Shiv Baba is really God and trying to figure it out etc (in this Forum), I began to put my mind to this also. Now, I have begun to feel that I was most fortunate that I have recognised the Source of my help as I had. If not, I might also be sitting here and wondering just like all the others. My mind and intellect likes to take me for a ride. When people sit and wonder, I also begin to sit and wonder because I like solving problems etc. I had loved maths when I was schooling and everyone were surprised that a person can like maths so much. It would give me a great trill when I solve a maths problem. So my mind and intellect is used to doing this. But where the issue of whether "Shiv Baba is God" is concerned, there was nothing to ponder on because the issue had already been established when I had pondered on it when I first came into gyan. I pondered on it and I think my psychic abilities and God's help had enabled me to establish that there was no doubt that it is God who is Shiv Baba. So actually, for me, it is not just blind faith. After I had come into gyan, one senior BK had made the remark that some outsiders can have more faith in God than some BKs did. I could not understand why he made such a remark. But now, I think I am beginning to understand. You know, it might be a good idea to just begin by having faith that God exists. Don't worry if that God is Shiv Baba or not. One can benefit a lot through having faith in God, even if that faith is based on bhakti and not on gyan. Maybe, you should ask yourself, "Do I believe in the concept that such a thing called God does exist?" It is good to turn one's mind to this because, even if human beings don't give help, God gives help and "faith" enables one to easily receive this help (on the path of bhakti). If one did not have this faith that God is there to help us, then a weak soul could turn into a psychiatric case thinking that no one is there for him. It can lead to brain damage as well because one can experience very severe misery which can have an adverse effect on the brain. But if he thought that God is there to help him, it gives him some hope to continue living. Before gyan, I had read one article ( or book? ) by a psychiatrist who said that he found that most people believed in God when they are placed in a hopeless kind of situation which can lead to brain damage. He was pondering on why it was like this and was giving theories. After reading that I was also contemplating on that a lot. You know this reminds me of how Baba tells us that people do not remember Him when they are happy and that they only remember Him when they are no longer happy. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:30 pm Post subject: |
BKs have surrendered everything in an attempt to practice Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga because the soul has recognised God, though at body-conscious level we are not aware of this recognition. Some psychic researchers and most religious men have accepted that "something more", than just the consciousnesses within the corporeal body, exists. Through meditation (not just through Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga) one can feel that there is "something more" than just the human soul / consciousness. This "something more" is referred to as God. Some psychic researchers have differentiated the help which we can get from one's own sub-conscious mind to the help which we can get from God. In fact, I was involved with this kind of psychic research before I came to the Brahma Kumaris. Through practice and experience, one could know as to when the help etc is from God and as to when the help is from one's own sub-conscious mind. The idea that God does exist has been accepted by many people all over the world based on their experiences and not just based on blind faith. Actually, at soul level, the soul knows that God exists, even though at body-conscious level, we are not sure because we cannot see God through the usage of our corporeal body. By soul level, I am referring to the state where we are in the consciousness / awareness that we are souls and not the body. By body conscious level, I am referring to the state where we experience ourselves to be the corporeal body and we are not able to differentiate ourselves from the corporeal body. In the Kaliyug world, we always felt that we were the corporeal body, though we may have experienced the soul as consciousness etc. Even as BKs, most of the time, we are in the consciousness that we are the corporeal body. BKs are making effort to remove this consciousness to go into the divine soul-conscious state which we may experience for just a split second. After that experience, we may not remember the experience vividly and, usually, we just vaguely remember it but we can enjoy the effects of having received God’s powerful vibrations for sometime after the experience. The soul can recognise God when the soul sees / meets Him though at body-conscious level we are not aware of the recognition. Who is Shiv Baba is actually not just a question of faith where the soul is concerned. At body-conscious level, it may just be a question of faith. But at soul level, the soul knows and has recognised God. This may be one of the reasons why those who have left Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga still yearn to practice Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga. This yearning is still there because the soul has recognised God and is not able to leave Him. The soul has the desire to continue staying close to God. Thus, we yearn to go back to the center or / and to talk to BKs. We can easily feel God’s presence through the good stage of BKs and so we have this yearning. At body conscious level, it might seem like as if God is a question of faith, but at soul level, it is not like that, i.e. it is not a question of faith because the soul knows and has recognized God. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:37 am Post subject: |
bkry I do appreciate your zeal for service in these forums, especially since I discern a sincerity in your intentions to help "lost souls". What I find interesting, however, is a certain lack of understanding or perhaps an avoidance of the central issues being raised. I shall cite 3 examples: 1. First of all, in the present forum, you seem to restrict your interpretation of "Faith" in the original post to mean blind faith alone. While the post seeks to address the (stated) fundamental role of that kind of faith in order to "succeed" in that path, it also attempts a critique of that faith in light of both reason and experience. The central point is that Raj Yoga, while earnestly inviting its adherents to "churn the Knowledge" is not genuinely equipped to respond to important questions on omissions or contradictions to its proclaimed integrity. To question and find genuine answers to one's questions is to strengthen faith by experience because that kind of churning should reveal an 'internal and external logical consistency' in "God's Knowledge." The kinds of questions alluded to in the original post do not receive such answers but, rather, responses based on blind faith (the "God-said-that-so-it-must-be-so" type of response) or no response at all - a sort of 'selective amnesia'. You have chosen to understand my "Faith" dilemma as indicative of my total rejection of the very existence of God. That is very far from the truth. The fact that I no longer equate the identity of "Shiv Baba" with that of the Universal God does not mean that I do not believe in God at all! But that kind of interpretation is understandable coming from a Brahma Kumari since for you there can be no other possible interpretation or valid experience. And what, ultimately, is your conviction based on? Your own faith in your own experience. And what is the foundation of that faith? It is as you have said:
Quote:
If one did not have this faith that God is there to help us, then a weak soul could turn into a psychiatric case thinking that no one is there for him. It can lead to brain damage as well because one can experience very severe misery which can have an adverse effect on the brain. But if he thought that God is there to help him, it gives him some hope to continue living.
That is where or how most of us get started on a religious path. What is important to recognize, however, is that having started on the path to salvation or "jeewan mukti" that first faith must face up to one's own life experiences and those of Life's progress on this planet - in other words it must be able to accommodate and rationalise any contradictions that may arise as a result of our unfolding civilization. If it fails to do so then "as children" we have a right to ask our "Heavenly Father" for explanations or answers - just as a child in growing up deserves a better answer than "the stork dropped the baby from the sky" in response to questions about the origin of a baby. If the parent continues to give the same answer as the child grows older then the child would lose faith in the reliability and integrity of the parent and would go elsewhere for answers. Indeed, Baba himself alluded to this kind of behaviour when he said that children should strive to have all relationships with him otherwise they they would go out into the world looking for them. In this case it is the relationship of Teacher and Preceptor. So I'm saying that like you many of us xbks started with that quality of unquestionable faith based on our life's experience before gyan but in subsequent years (and no doubt for a variety of reasons) we began to reassess that faith in light of our lived experiences. Unlike you, however, we departed - many of us just 'walking away' - often choosing to face a wilderness in search of a greater truth. 2. My second example is more of a curiousity about your avoidance of responding to my interpretation of your views on "The gathering of Shankars". Are you aware of the version where Shiv Baba said that he came and did business with one soul (Brahma) who has the responsibility of distributing his inheritance? And were you taught that the divine family, as the creation of Prajapita Brahma, is the means through which your place in heaven is determined? In my day, we used to be told that "these are deep points to churn and understand". It meant, therefore, that if one became estranged from the divine family then one's sanskars did not match - and that would not do well for harmony in Heaven! So when I note your earnest sincerity to accommodate xbks I can't help wondering how you would reconcile the two points-of-view. I'm still interested in your views on this. 3. My third example is your misunderstanding or oversimplification (I'm not sure which it is) of eromain's concept of child abuse. [ But then you did say that the post had you a bit dizzy and for someone of your faith, bhen, I can quite understand that. It would have bowled me out completely if I were where you're at ]. I'm afraid eromain is not restricting his meaning to the usual forms of physical and emotional abuse but rather he extends it to abuse that proceeds from forms of indoctrination. That is what section 5 of his report focuses on. And while we're on that, section 5 also seriously questions your bid to distance the essence and the ethos of the BK's Faith from that of a Cult. I'm afraid your definition by the Oxford Dictionary is inadequate for that purpose. When measured in light of research done on cults the characteristics identified by such research (especially the techniques of thought control and centralization of power) would place it within the realms of a cult. But again, I can understand your denial of such classification. Up to a year ago or so I would have agreed with you - and I left the knowledge a long, long time ago - so I can understand any feelings of indignation by BKs generally over this. So you see, bkry bhen, it is not necessarily true that we xbks have not had the benefit of your quality of experience or have abandoned belief in a God Almighty; rather, it is a case of our moving beyond the limits of your experience and faith because the very condition of our Life on Earth has moved us we question the adequacy of such a foundation. In spite of all this, let me again express my sincere appreciation and admiration for your apparent sincerity and earnestness to "save" your fellow brothers and sisters. Please accept my best wishes for your success. Namaste. Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
casa Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 12 |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:25 am Post subject: |
Gyaniwasi... clearly the most generous and kind admonishment I've ever read! I am a bk (though have never been able to use the prefix as a sign-off). I am first and foremost a soul travelling home and am loathe to become attached to yet another label that locks me into identifying with a range of beliefs/behaviours/systems I find challenging to say the least. Many of the questions in this forum I continually ask myself... I seek to know truth beyond the platitudinous, beyond the rhetoric. Often when I am running retreats at the bk retreat centres, I share with the participants that I experience 'cult attacks'... it might be blasphemous , but it's true... and what's more, I'm sure by their relieved reactions, that many if not most, have had the same thoughts/feelings. Even with the challenges I encounter (my own filters included), I love the foundation teachings - they have changed my life, the lives of so many with whom I've connected of the past decade. I look at the beauty, the power, the silence and the love of some of the mature journeyers and I see them melt pain and hopelessnes with their eyes. So I continue to call to the god of truth to show me 'the truth'... whatever that takes. But secretly I hope that my serach doesn't rob me of the exquisitry and gentleness of god in my life nor the strength and kindness of my companions.
ifegenia Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17 |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:21 am Post subject: |
Casa, can you please explain what you mean by
Quote:
Often when I am running retreats at the bk retreat centres, I share with the participants that I experience 'cult attacks'... it might be blasphemous , but it's true... and what's more, I'm sure by their relieved reactions, that many if not most, have had the same thoughts/feelings.
What are you referring to? What is a "cult attack?" Thanks - Ifegenia
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:58 am Post subject: |
Sweetest gyaniwasi, it was nice to have heard from you and Casa. Frankly speaking, if I thought that there is a possibility that an arguement may arise through the discussion of an issue, I would prefer to maintain silence. Anyway, in my view, closeness to the divine family should be at subtle level / at mind level where our sanskaras are similar / matched. I think "being co-operative in service" describes this "closeness" better than looking at it from closeness at corporeal level. But off course, you and others may choose to defer. Maybe, since you have already left the Brahma Kumaris, it would not really matter to you as to whether you agree or not. But in my opinion, being together in a place all the time would not mean that we are close. I am able to talk to seniors and other BKs who practice this knowledge seriously because I have similar accepted views. There are so many others around me but I can't even talk gyan to them. These people and I may be close at corporeal level because we are near each other but we aren't really close in the spiritual sense. Previously, I was grouped into a BK group who seriously practiced gyan including the system. Others who were not practicing knowledge as seriously were not too happy and I was not too happy that they were not too happy. Since I didn't want to have a barrier between me and those who didn't practice this knowledge serious, I began to show acceptance of their ways (based on my understanding). But deep down my closeness is to those who seriously practice this knowledge even though you would not see me close with them in a corporeal way. Because of the closeness, we can talk knowledge freely and serious without worrying whether the other is able to accept what I say. In my view, this is closeness. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
My Dear Bkry, The way in which you use the word "argument" seems to give the impression of hostility on my part. If this is so then I'm sorry that you have misinterpreted the thrust and intent of a point of view different from yours. This is a kind of 'delicacy' (to borrow a word frequently used by the sisters-in-charge in my day) that can impede us as we try to grow spiritually. I do not think that expressing a radically different point of view should be misconstrued as an apparent act of hostility. I genuinely feel that your wish to interact with us xbks is sincere; what I am saying, however, is that, from the content of your views, you seem to misunderstand us. On the other hand it may be that apparent misunderstandings of the essential xbk positions (speaking generally now)is an instinctive defence mechanism to preserve one's ontological security - the kind of mechanism you referred to as necessary to keep us sane. Whatever it is, I appreciate your continuing interaction with us. On the question of closeness: I was not giving you merely my interpretation but rather what was taught to us as an extended meaning of "Yoga". It was the reason we'd go on picnics, play games and dance 'ras' in ecstacy. It's the reason we used to look forward to experiencing Madhuban also. They were essential activities for marrying the spiritual with the physical expressions of love and unity - a "merging of sanskars" as they used to say. I don't know if this is still encouraged or practised in centres today. Otherwise, it is easy to love "long distance". It is said that even Brahma - when he felt "crowded out" or needed "space" - used to ask Shiva if he had to show appreciation for all his children and Shiv Baba used to say "Yes, they're all my children". I think the principle used to be that the extent to which you experience natural closeness within the divine family is an indication of your fortune or status in the new world. Anyway, bkry, you're doing fine looking out for us - just remember though that, most likely, we have passed that way before. Casa: thank you for the kind sentiments. You seem to be an interesting soul, with a good measure of sincerity also. I quite understand how much you cherish the warmth and love you experience but ... well never mind; some other time or forum. Take care and - like ifegenia - I'm interested in understanding your experience of "cult attacks". Ifegenia: Good to "hear your voice" again and thanks for the lead to "The Guru Papers" by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. I've started reading it. Casa, I think you too would find it interesting to browse ... Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
ifegenia Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17 |
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: |
Hi Gyaniwasi: Nice to see your presence here as well --- I find your posts like a breath of fresh air! I am glad that you are reading "The Guru Papers". I would be interested in knowing your feelings regarding different chapters when you have time. Peace - Ifegenia
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