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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
So, can anyone can show me an action, event, circumstance, feeling, emotion, in fact, anything 'under the sun' that exists without a cause? _________________ om shanti wahl
celticgyan Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 43 Location: New Zealand |
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
People do things all the time without apparent cause. Of course there is a Psychological reason why we do certain things but that does not imply a physical law. A Psychopath will kill you no questions asked - he does not need a reason - his reason is insanity.People do things for the quest for knowledge or pleasure - is that Karma? Well I suppose if you believe then everything is Karma just like the religious people believe everything is the will of God.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
Quote:
But I have had encounters with Shiv Baba and I know he exists, as a soul.
I would love to hear about your encounters. Have you already told us about them in other threads?
In the thread 'the orange world' i related a visonary experience i had many years ago of being in the soul world. In this i had encounters with a number of other souls, all of them orange egg shaped beings of light like me, each radiating the same quality of golden divine light from a point in their centre. I am sure within myself that one of these was Shiva. The communication was all very subtle and telepathic but there was movement of the souls. We alll just glided around in the brahm, but The Shiva soul came and 'played' with me dancing around in an unforgettable way, total lightness, playfulness, and exuberance. This soul was very striking to me. At the time i was fascinated but had no idea of this being God. This was 12 years before i got involved with the BKs, and i saw God as being the brahm element we were floating in. But in recent years, in yoga, i have realised that that soul was the 'Shiva' of the BKs. Other experiences were later and less clear, through drishti whilst in yoga, when the power of the conductor's eyes suddenly becomes so overwhelming that it can only be God! These experiences have left me high as a kite for days, and in some instances brought on little floods of other 'psychic' experiences. This has happened through the instruments of BapDada in Gulzar's body in Madhuban, also through Dadi Janki, and through a couple of other far less well known souls. I feel that the power in the eyes has to be from a soul, because there is a distinct personality there, different from the instrument's, but of course there could be other interpretations. I have not experienced anything like this through anyone who is not a BK...
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:44 am Post subject: |
Karma - surely science has accepted this all along in the law (i am not a scientist and don't know its precise name) that states that for every force there must be an equal and opposite force. For every action there is a reaction. Therefore every action has a cause.... what is the plausible alternative theory? Surely karma is not a 'spiritual' law, but a universal law? It works at the material level too. An understanding of karma brings responsibility for ones own actions. My own experience is that when you live your life with an understanding (and acceptance) of karmic return, your life transforms much for the better. The transformation is immediate and tangible (or was in my case). If you don't believe, then why not just accept the possibilty, and try it as a working hypothesis...
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:22 am Post subject: |
Hi, I was curious about someone's reference to 'Watchers' in M. Blavatsky's work because it is one translation of the term "Egregor" which I mentioned some time ago in this forum in a post 'The concept of egregore and its relevance to the Brahma Kumaris'. In researching the term 'watcher', I came across an interesting reference to "Mahatmas" and went on to read some of the "Mahatma Letters" - a series of correspondence between some British administrators in 19th century India and some Adepts living in the highlands of Tibet - on matters of spiritual service to humanity etc. It was while reading one of those letters that I came across the second quotation below and remembered reading this one in this forum:
Quote:
Quote: That would be like believing in magic. Hey presto, something exists, out of thin air. Has any one read any of the SaiBaba books? I've read some and it claims that he could magic things out of thin air. There were many witnesses and among them non believers.
Here's the quotation from one of "The Mahatma Letters":
Quote:
The human brain is an exhaustless generator of the most refined quality of cosmic force, out of the low, brute energy of nature; and the complete adept has made himself a centre from which irradiate potentialities that beget correlations upon correlations through Aeons to come. This is the key to the mystery of his being able to project into and materialise in the visible world the forms that his imagination has constructed out of inert cosmic matter in the invisible world. The adept does not create anything new, but only utilises and manipulates materials which nature has in store around him; a material which throughout eternities has passed through all the forms; he has but to choose the one he wants and recall it into objective existence. Would not this sound to one of your "learned" biologists like a madman's dream?
A common mistake we make in the West is to assume that anyone who demonstrates this kind of power falls naturally in the class of a saint. I too have read of untoward things about Sai Baba but that does not make his feats a fraud. There are mundane sciences (Phys., Chem. Bio. etc) which are common knowledge to us and then there are arcane sciences (bilocation, telekinesis, levetation, materialization etc.) with which we are less familiar but which are well known and taught in Eastern cultures and Western schools of mysticism etc. Jesus, in whom the Christ was expressed, was an Adept. I have no doubt that he did change water into wine. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
Other experiences were later and less clear, through drishti whilst in yoga, when the power of the conductor's eyes suddenly becomes so overwhelming that it can only be God! These experiences have left me high as a kite for days, and in some instances brought on little floods of other 'psychic' experiences. This has happened through the instruments of BapDada in Gulzar's body in Madhuban, also through Dadi Janki, and through a couple of other far less well known souls. I feel that the power in the eyes has to be from a soul, because there is a distinct personality there, different from the instrument's, but of course there could be other interpretations. I have not experienced anything like this through anyone who is not a BK...
Dear howiemac, I haven't experienced this outside BK but I have heard about it. There is something like drishti in Tibetan Buddhism where there is a formal or ceremonial meeting between disciple and root lama / guru in which no words are exchanged. I once asked a Tibetan Buddhist about this and here is what he said: Yes. It's real… there are definitely things in tantric Buddhism that involve wordless 'transmission'. If you've ever experienced this from the Real McCoy, then there can be no doubt about it. If the mind is ripe for this experience it can totally knock your socks off, leave your entire body trembling for a week. There is a special type of 'initiation' this refers to, and you can read about this in Georg Feurstein's 'Tantra', where he discusses 'initiation by piercing the subtle body'. This is a wordless initiation from a tantric master that activates the 'subtle body' and is extraordinarily powerful. This type of initiation can introduce the mind directly to 'suchness' (tathata) as well as cause the activation of 'Shakti', the divine life force in all of us, engendering states of profound bliss that can go on for a long time after the initiation. Shakti, and the 'siddhis' that come from a pure tantric practice are extremely powerful. And if that's been passed down a living lineage through true masters, it is something totally out of this world. Shakti, by definition, is the life force which is curled at the base of the spine, also known as 'Kundalini' in tantric systems. Shakti lies dormant at the base of the spine at the root chakra (Muladhara).
the prisoner Joined: 18 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
I had quite a powerful experience when meeting the Dalai Lama - he grabbed my hand in both of his and looked into my eyes for a couple of seconds. I meditated immediately afterwards and felt like I was sinking deeper and deeper into a well of peace. It was different from BK experiences, and seemed to correspond more to Buddhist teachings than BK ones. Regarding the original title of this thread, I heard an interesting story last month in Madhuban (apologies if this is old hat). Apparently in the 50's Jagdish-bhai asked Brahma Baba about the teaching that Shiva Baba was the size and shape of a human thumb. According to Jagdish's thinking, God could only ever be infinite or infinitessimal. It was shortly after this that murlis began to explain that both the soul and supreme soul had the form of points. _________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
Apparently in the 50's Jagdish-bhai asked Brahma Baba about the teaching that Shiva Baba was the size and shape of a human thumb. According to Jagdish's thinking, God could only ever be infinite or infinitessimal. It was shortly after this that murlis began to explain that both the soul and supreme soul had the form of points.
Ahhh...This is the type of thing I was talking about in the topic. http://www.xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewtopic.php?t=840
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: Sai Baba |
John, I knew one of Sai Baba's followers in the eighties, he made many trips to India to see him and he attended a local temple. On one of the last trips he didn’t seem too happy. Later this person who had a PhD., seemed to drop out of sight. Check out this link and then go to www.salon.com if you want to see the full story. I subscribe to it as it presents cutting edge news reporting, especially on the political front. The report is along the lines of eromain's report on child abuse found at this site @ http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm , but not as thorough by any measure. http://www.rickross.com/reference/saibaba/saibaba7.html Hope this helps. Regards, Tete
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
One can check this website on Sathya Sai. It looks to give clear picture. Probably not for some one. http://www.saisathyasai.com/ http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/gerald-joe-moreno.html However according to me I dont think he is GOD as said by his followers (maybe claimed by himself) but definitely he has many spiritual works and great works which one can witness in India. I think when there is some good, there would be definitely all sorts of things around. Growing followers in his ashram including foreigners tell lot of miracleous things on him. I personally seen people (Indians) who have faith on him have benefitted in their both family and personal matters. Anyways some incidents give rise to susupicions like murder attempt on him, catching of his magic on cam etc. About magics he have done, I dont know where he learnt those magics but the famous magician PC Sorcar told that what satya sai baba does are just magics like what he can do and they are just related to some advance science. thanks satish
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: shiv baba, who is? |
The question “Who is ShivBaba” is one that has occupied me for a long time. I have two or three answers which I base on my own experiences of shivbaba and on my intellect and research. Firstly though I would like to comment on the other two subjects that have been explored in this thread – Karma and the Cycle of Time – Surely the two things, as presented in orthodox BK gyan, are mutually exclusive? If the cycle of time repeats identically every 5000 years then karma is totally irrelevant. We will all do exactly what we did at this time in the cycle 5000 years ago and nothing can change that, so there is no use worrying about it. If I am a saint or a sinner is not my choice, it is all pre destined to happen exactly as before. Why bring the irrelevance of the law of karma into it. I have no free will so why tell me to behave in a good way? I have experienced the phenomenon of shivbaba personally and there are three ideas I have of what SB could be. 1. He could be almighty God or some other great and benign entity, possibly from another galaxy. 2. SB could be a stargate or wormhole through which we access other dimensions or galaxies. My own experiences are that I have been transported to the singularity which existed before the universe was manifest. So before space and time existed. SB could then be a form of time travel technology. 3. SB could be the first chakra of the human light body. Classically there are seven major chakras, or energy centres, in the human body. In my experience there are two more important ones. The eighth is about eight inches above the head and looks just like the one we have seen in many of the pictures of Brahma Baba. It is the base chakra of our own light, or angelic, body and is an orangy red colour. By connecting with it we are able to re-charge our physical chakras through the glands in the top of the head, and the energy centres which are the crown chakra and the third eye. The ninth chakra is below the physical body and serves a different function. So I am saying that SB is a part of the human energy system, and not a god or entity of any kind. I don’t know really what SB is, but I find SB to be a vital ingredient in my healthy physical and spiritual life. A word now on Brahma Baba. I am sure from experience he/she is a real astral entity. Normally I would advise anyone to stay well away from the astral world as it is full of dangers and malign entities. As Ram Dass once said “being dead does not automatically equate with being wise”. However, BB is benign in my experience, and he is a very helpful friend and companion to me, so I make an exception for him. Otherwise I am very careful about entities.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: shiv baba, who is? |
Sam wrote:
If the cycle of time repeats identically every 5000 years then karma is totally irrelevant. We will all do exactly what we did at this time in the cycle 5000 years ago and nothing can change that, so there is no use worrying about it. If I am a saint or a sinner is not my choice, it is all pre destined to happen exactly as before. Why bring the irrelevance of the law of karma into it. I have no free will so why tell me to behave in a good way?
Even if you do believe in BBs circular cycle that repeats identically (I am skeptical myself, though it does have a nice simplicity), you still, in the practical circumstances of everyday life have to make decisions constantly on what to think, what to say, how to act etc, - i suggest that you are likely to make better decisions (ie more spiritual - better for yourself and for everyone else) from a viewpoint of understanding karma - ie from taking responsibilty for the results of your own thoughts and actions.
Quote:
I am saying that SB is a part of the human energy system, and not a god or entity of any kind.
sounds to me that you are saying he is our own higher self. I believe he is a separate entity as BB claims and describes - in my experience Shiv Baba is a conscient being separate from my higher self - but of the same form - so it can be unclear at times where the energy entering the crown chakra is coming from - could be shiv Baba, or some other soul, or our own higher self...
Quote:
I don’t know really what SB is, but I find SB to be a vital ingredient in my healthy physical and spiritual life.
agreed
Quote:
A word now on Brahma Baba. I am sure from experience he/she is a real astral entity. Normally I would advise anyone to stay well away from the astral world as it is full of dangers and malign entities... However, BB is benign in my experience, and he is a very helpful friend and companion to me, so I make an exception for him. Otherwise I am very careful about entities.
this is also my experience - though i question whether he is actually astral - is he not on a more subtle and more spiritual plane than that? Are the white, golden, and red subtle regions not higher planes of existance than the astral and normal dream planes? I am questioning here, it is all still mysterious to me....
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Astral |
Yes, I think being responsible for my actions is a good way to live my life, so long as I am merciful with myself and do not worry about mistakes I may make. So in that sense it is irrelevant if karma is a real law or not, I will still regulate my behaviour in a kind way. I am also sceptical about the cycle repeating. I merely point out that there is an apparent contradiction in the knowledge. My feeling is that BB comes to me in a bubble of golden white in the more reddish astral, and that he creates a safe space. Maybe he is descending into the astral from a higher plane? Still not sure of the true nature of SB. May be it is beyond our words and logic. As I feel it to do me good I will use the connection. That is the important thing on a practical level. Good Chat.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Astral |
Sam wrote:
I am also sceptical about the cycle repeating. I merely point out that there is an apparent contradiction in the knowledge.
only one ? There is indeed inherent contradiction between everything being predestined, and in having free will to take responsibility for your own actions... either our destiny is forced upon us or we are masters of our own destiny. BB wants to have his cake and eat it. Here is another more minor contradiction - the murlis say, categorically, that golden age couples have only two children, one male and one female. They also say the population expands manifold from the beginning to the end of the golden age. So where does the expansion come from? The murlis, and BK 'gyan' are full of such inconsistencies - we are back to the need for fuzzy logic to make anything of it. Clearly indeed this 'knowledge' cannot be taken literally. Once you accept that some of it is innacurate, then all of it becomes questionable - it is all up for grabs.
Quote:
My feeling is that BB comes to me in a bubble of golden white in the more reddish astral, and that he creates a safe space. Maybe he is descending into the astral from a higher plane?
very likely - i know BKs who say they have seen him as a (benevolent) ghost, walking about their centre... I am curious that you are saying the astral is reddish - i had not associated such a colour with the astral (but i am no expert on this - just curious)...
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Astral |
Sam wrote:
Still not sure of the true nature of SB. May be it is beyond our words and logic. As I feel it to do me good I will use the connection. That is the important thing on a practical level.
yes - what you feel is real and from another thread: http://xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewtopic.php?t=885
Sam wrote:
I have an out of body experience. I go to another world, a world of light. SB is the source of that light. The closer I get to SB the more light I absorb. If I can merge with SB then I am out of time and space altogether and it is beyond language. Only experience close to it is drishti from a very senior yogini.
sound very much like the real deal to me Sam Thanks for the excellent description.
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