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Re-writing Murlis and general hypocrisies Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next
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John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
I always considered Murlis to be directly spoken by Shiva through Brahma. In the early days didn't Brahma used to just write them? I have read the 'two engines' thing in a murli. John
khormoz Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Brampton, Canada |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
When I first heard the murli, I had originally toyed with the idea that maybe it worked like this: God speaks the words and they are basically projected on the wall of Brahma Baba's mind who then speaks them. I don't really feel that's an accurate reflection. The explanation I was given in my centre was that Shiva is using the body of Brahma Baba (using his mouth, eyes, etc.) but that Brahma Baba is also present and they both have use of Brahma Baba's sanskars and faculties. From the three years of sakar murlis that I've studied so far, that seems to be the closest model to explain the words being spoken. There have been many times when I've read something like "I even have trouble remembering the Father when I am eating" (not verbatim but it should be easy to find a murli quotation like that). That would definitely not be God speaking those words. In many other murlis, it is said "I enter this one in the last of his many births". That would definitely not be Brahma Baba speaking those words. Sister Mohini of New York once explained during a talk at our centre that during at least one trance experience post-1969, she saw the avyakt form of Brahma and then saw the soul of Shiva enter and then begin to speak to her. I asked her if she ever attempted to speak to Brahma before the Shiva soul entered it and she said no. So I think that model holds true even for avyakt murlis, i.e. Shiva and Brahma both making use of Brahma's now-subtle sanskars of speech and then the BapDada combination switches places in a sense with Dadi Gulzar. I remember one murli where it was stated something to the effect of: I come and explain to him about the soul and the cycle and this Baba explains about everything else. I think it's within the current year of sakar murlis but I'm not positive. I'm still trying to refine my own understanding of the process. I'll probably find another topic to post more about that because this one is about rewriting murlis etc. not about the difference between the roles played by the 2 souls. I am fortunate enough to attend a centre where we are encouraged to churn the murlis ourselves and that to blindly accept the words of any senior, including the centre-in-charge, is also bhakti. Two of the powers of the soul are discrimination and judgement so to ignore them would not be beneficial to anyone. I gather from the majority of the posts on this website that this attitude is not encouraged at most centres, which means that when the inaccurate churnings of all-too-human instruments are mixed in with the murli, the students are ill-equipped to recognize or deal with it. howiemac wrote:
Quote:
yes the murlis are being rewritten - they call it 'revision' and the very first avyakt murli in 1969 specifically told them to 'revise' the old sakar murlis..
When the words "revise" or "revision" are used in this context, they simply mean "review". You can see an example of this in the titles of the mp3 classes distributed in Madhuban: Dadi Janki murli revision xx-Jun-2003. I'm not saying that rewrites are not taking place, just that the 1969 avyakt murli was not a directive from God to do so. Regards, Kurosh
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
Isn't the greatist service/karma considered to be bringing a soul closer to God. If murlis are changed isn't that disservice? Then wouldn't a true understanding of God be knocked off target. If true this is both enlightening and worrying. John
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
Quote:
You can see an example of this in the titles of the mp3 classes distributed in Madhuban:
Are these mp3s available on the internet? John
khormoz Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Brampton, Canada |
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
The only place I've ever seen them is in Madhuban but they may be available in various centres around the world as well. I've never been able to find anything on the internet. John wrote:
Quote:
If murlis are changed isn't that disservice?
I think so. My understanding of gyan is that anything done with body consciousness has some element of disservice. Since anyone still in possession of a physical body has some amount of body consciousness, everything we do performs some disservice. The question then becomes whether we are doing more service than disservice at any given time. If murlis are being changed, that is likely the basis of the rationalization done by the revisionists. Also, many people feel that they receive directions through their yoga experiences which may be at play here as well. Regards, Kurosh
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
But the point of Shiva coming in person is to liberate souls with gyan - true knowledge, because as he says that is the only thing that will liberate souls. So the knowledge comes from the horses mouth so to speak(english expression, I know actually it was through Brahmas mouth),and not divine inspiration through an interpretor, where the alloy of manmat could be mixed in. Therefore if you murlis are changed is true liberation still possible
khormoz Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Brampton, Canada |
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
I am in agreement with the idea that murlis should not be changed. By that, I mean that I will never do that myself or encourage others to do it. I have already raised the issue at our centre and also to a senior that happened to be visiting recently. For anyone who is interested, I'll give those conversations in a post later this evening. I will take all of the steps available to me to seek the correct answer as long as doing so doesn't violate shrimat, i.e. I will not get upset nor will I cause sorrow to anyone else regardless of any perceived mistakes that I feel are being made. I have the faith that I will hear what I need to hear. In all situations, I try to be soul conscious and honestly try to determine why I have been exposed to a particular situation. For example, what issues do I need to work on that drama allowed me to find Baba at this time as opposed to the time when I could have heard murlis directly without any chance of error? Maybe my faith needs to be tested more than the souls who came into gyan earlier. Or maybe my discrimination power is acute enough that I am able to filter out the lies from the truth. One way or the other, I believe that the cycle repeats identically, so true liberation is possible regardless of what takes place along the way. Regards, Kurosh
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: |
John wrote:
.. if murlis are changed is true liberation still possible
true knowledge is available other ways than by murlis - by direct inspiration through yoga, for instance - after all how did Brahma gain his knowledge? of course knowledge gained this way cannot easily be passed on to others.. the ego tends to get involved and we are back to manmat.. however, the murli can only take you so far, after that further illumination comes from 'churning' the knowledge, and from realisations through yoga. also, much of the knowledge in the murlis is also available from the writings of other religions....
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
Hi Howiemac, I very much agree with you on this. with love wahl
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
Yes I also agree, but think the foundation of churning has to be correct and complete
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Re-writing Murlis and general hypocrisies |
ex-london wrote:
This is something that I think folks following or thinking of following the BKs ought to realise ... that the Murlis are being re-written by ... who ... I don't know. Someone in the Mount Abu centre? Does anyone know who?
I used to keep copies of the Sakar murlis I found most powerful. Well, the murlis eventually "come around" since their number is limited. I was surprised to find that the second time I heard a particularly memorable murli and compared it line-by-line with the previous version, that several sentences had been deleted. One notion in particular: That remembering Brahma will not clean sins, and the soul will actually become *more* sinful by remembering Brahma. I'd guess the editing was done in Madhuban. I don't think Jayanti or Janki would would do this. I never tried to get an explanation. Unlike some of the other posters, I personally found the strong tone of the sakar murlis to be charming at the time, the unreserved tone of a father laying it out to the children. The story goes that Baba would make some stinging criticism of children in the murli, and children would afterward come up to (Brahma) Baba and confess their weaknesses/failures as per the murli. Baba would tell them, "Oh no, you are a very good child, Baba was speaking about some other soul" thereby combining lesson-giving with showing respect, leaving the person to decide for themself. No question that Brahma Baba was a charismatic teacher with wonderfully indirect and respectful ways of teaching. The senior sisters have no end of stories of his uniquely loving style of communication. Brahma was certainly unconditionally loving in one dream I had of him; it was Mama who laid down the law with me, saying what I understood at the time to mean that "whatever you may imagine yourself to be, the reality is that you are a patchwork of scattered and inconsistent fragments." I had no problem with "God" being limited by the language skills of his vehicle. The sentences of the Avyakt murlis are wonderfully involved, long and complex, at least according to those who know Hindi. I have no doubt that another entity separate from Dadi Gulzar is speaking. Toward the end of my time, I found these murlis didn't address the issues in my heart. Now I have such "lokik" wonderings as to whether Dadi Gulzar wears a diaper. But maybe that's not fair. There was something amazing the way the Entity slowly expresses itself through Dadi's eyes, then through the facial expression, then through the voice, gradually more animated, and at the end reversing the process, slowly withdrawing. It was a kind of magic. Towards the end I couldn't bear to sit inert after the murlis while others sang and partied with Baba, and I was just a carrot sitting passively, waiting and waiting and imagining that I could do something that Baba would recognize me for. I never found a gambit such as cake-baking or playing music to get extra personalized attention from Avyakt BapDada. The earliest days of personal meetings with Baba (1981 was my first visit) were quite wonderful at the time. We would go in front of Baba, one by one, and some would complain about how Maya was so powerful and Baba would joke and reason and praise and guide. Probably he still does. Another "proof" that they are different, is that Baba likes bananas, whereas Dadi Gulzar doesn't. The whole rigidity of the dietary restrictions came into question one day when I heard that Dadi Gulzar eats in-flight meals. I used to fight with myself not to eat the meals, and not to look up at the in-flight movies. but that is another subject. Happy travels!
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
The crucial difference for me is that unlike Dadi Gulzar, Brahma Baba was formulating his own thoughts. Those thoughts of course were influenced by his 'Companion' at the time. I don't think that his body was entered or used by God.
Dear Wahl, What do you mean by God being BB's 'Companion' - isn't He everyone's Companion? I mean isn't the point of the BK view (that God enters the body of BB) to distinguish BK from all other religions and isn't the result of your interpretation that this distinction is lost?
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
I have to agree with Uddhava. I would say from 1951 untill 1969 Shiva Baba was reciting murlis through the mouth of Brahma baba. The period before 1951 I find sketchy and would think visits would not be so regular. Without quoting murlis I remember lots of 'I enter this one' 'two engines in one body'. Murli is the flute of Shiva Baba and one of his biggest gripes is that Krishna (Brahma Baba) was credited with narrating the gita. Which he definately says is not true.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
After 1969 came Avyakta Vanis, which were spoken by Brahma through Dadi Gulzar. Whether Shiva enters as well is still very much up for debate
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
The crucial difference for me is that unlike Dadi Gulzar, Brahma Baba was formulating his own thoughts. Those thoughts of course were influenced by his 'Companion' at the time. I don't think that his body was entered or used by God. I don't know if this accurate according the the BKWSU...
Ok here are some murli quotes - 03/02/03 Shiv Baba, the Creator, comes and tells you how He is creating the new creation. I am creating you Brahmins through Brahma. I am not just your Father. I am your Father, your Teacher and also your Satguru. Those who belong to Me say: Shiv Baba, I have become Yours through the mouth of Brahma. No human being can say this. No one would have the knowledge to say this. Only the Father says: My children, I teach you Raja Yoga and make you into the masters of heaven. 04/02/03 The Father has come in the living form at this time. 05/02/03 You children know that the Father is personally sitting in front of you. … You children know that you are personally sitting in front of the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul... The Father has now come and He says: Become pure! The Father has come and explained the right things to you. 06/02/03 Sweet children…the Father, the Incorporeal Ocean of Knowledge is Himself the One who is teaching you... ...the incorporeal Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, is speaking to you through this body...Shiv Baba is teaching you...the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, is teaching you through the mouth of Brahma. The Father has come. God definitely has to come to the devotees...This One is the unlimited Father and He sits here and explains to you children. When you children meet sannyasis etc., you explain that the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, the Ocean of Knowledge, is teaching you. The Father explains: Children, very little time remains.
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