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uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
I have yet to see a PBK murli 'in the flesh' so all I have to go on a the moment is snippets of translations.....a bit like Chinese whispers.
Ok but the murli in question is a sakar murli of 1966, not a PBK murli.
Quote:
It seems that we are analysing details of the murli (BK or PBK) in a very body conscious way here, so much so that we are forgetting the who the Author is and the knowledge that is being conveyed. Reading the murli is not like reading a book. We have to read and 'feel' between the lines. I like to let the words 'fall on to my mind' and then feel what is being conveyed to me. God is expressing Himself and giving us knowledge that is beyond words.
OK but this is really a fundamental BK issue - it's one thing for God to talk about spiritual renewal of individuals and of the world in general, but it's another thing for God to say that destruction will take place in year x, and then that doesn't happen. Surely this raises questions about what God said and did he get it wrong? Did God say in 1966 or other times that destruction will take place in 1976? If so, destruction obviously didn't happen, so what is the explanation for this? Satish above says that yes God did say it but he (God) was telling lies. Certainly great confusion was caused, and as Hanuman says above, many BK's were shocked by this and left gyan in 1977. If God said that destruction will take place in 1976, I don't think it's body conscious or unfair for people to interpret this as 'destruction will take place in 1976'. Anyway to make any sense of this, it's really essential to know exactly what God said, and in my case that means an accurate English translation. Is it a big deal whether God said this or not? Yes, it's a very big deal IMHO.
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
God is expressing Himself and giving us knowledge that is beyond words.
This is the whole problem though - God is also giving us knowledge about this world in words. If God says that destruction will take place in 1976, is this not telling us that an event will happen (destruction), and when this event will take place (in earth year 1976)? How else does God expect us to interpet this?
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
Hi Uddhava, Do we have the date of this particular sakar murli so we can find out what Baba actually said? Love wahl
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
Dear Uddhava, My point about not getting involved with the argument of the chariot/s is that I think that, if someone really wanted to pick holes in the BK murlis then it would be very easy to do it, especially if they relied on the ambiguity of translations. Why is it that we are having difficulty setting eyes on the original 1966 sakar murli that quotes destruction of 1976? It would be very easy for the PBK websites to quote it, but they don't. The only murlis quoted are avyakt ones and I am not sure that they are being quoted accurately or in context. I am not saying that there isn't a question mark over what Brahma Baba might have said in 1966 but, I have listened to and studied enough murlis over the years to know that it is a very consistent Personality that is speaking and that this kind of very specific information is not a typical feature of the murlis that I have read. I am very open minded on this subject and would be happy to have some clarification. Do you agree? Love wahl
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: |
Dear Wahl, I don't agree that it’s easy to pick holes in the murli. If the murli concerns spiritual renewal in general, spiritual renewal is definitely a good thing and there is little in this in which to pick a hole. If the murli talks about the future golden age, some non-BK’s might not believe in this, but by definition it is in the unknown future, so it might be true or it might not. However if God said that destruction will take place in 1976, we know of course that this statement is not true, I mean there is no ambiguity about – ‘well it might be true or it might not’. So firstly if God has said something untrue, this in itself is a problem, but then the greater problem is that this is not some trivial subject matter but concerns the very existence of the world – what could possibly be more important? It also goes to the heart of the BK divine revelations – ie these things are believed to be true because they are spoken by God. Now what if God says something that turns out to be incorrect – something doesn’t add up. How can I have faith in the BK knowledge when this knowledge has been proved to be wrong in such a fundamental way? Now we still don’t know (and perhaps will never know) what exactly God said about this. I feel it is unlikely though that it was only a single mention of 1976 in one sakar murli in 1966, and then no more mention of 1976 for the next 10 years. Anyway, after 1976, I don’t suppose that murlis mentioning the date of 1976 would be repeated in class. What we do know though, is that most or all of BKWSU believed that destruction would take place in January 1977. This was not just a few BK’s thinking that destruction might happen – it was the whole of the BK hierarchy gathered in Madhuban, ‘biting their nails’, as described by Hanuman above. I can’t know for sure that God said this, although it seems to be a strong possibility. Mistaken translation doesn’t really come in to this because the hierarchy hear the murli in their own language. But even if it was a misunderstanding on the part of Dada Lekhraj / Dadi Gulzar etc this is still a big problem – how could those so close to God get it so badly wrong? I agree that in my experience this kind of detail is generally not given in the murli, and as far as I know, 1976 is the only specific date that has ever been given. However even if this only happened once, once is enough.
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
Code:
satish wrote: BABA had to say this lies to increase the effort in Brahmins as their seems to be dullness in effort of Brahmins. Satish, I think it's hard to believe in a God who tells lies!
Dear Uddhava In reference to the above you wrote this above to me, I want to reply. Baba also said in murili that some times lies work out very well in attaining good task, so lies can't be bad always. Well I remember Shivababa said those words in Avyakt Murili. And even I am curious to know about that which murili he stated that. It is book of Avyakt murils , published by BKs. If you could get all Avyakt Murili books ,back to those years you might find. Try them if you can. thanks satish
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
Dear Uddhava and Satish, I suppose we should wait for a PBK to provide us with the murli quotation/s we have asked for............to be continued........ In the meantime, let's meditate............. Much love wahl
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
Why actually I consider PBK is not what they really are to the thing what they say. 1.) About the point of destruction and subtle regions which they pointing and saying that it has different interpretation that time were actually clarified in the Avyakt murils of later years. And by that time I suppose no PBK would have been there in BK family to listen to the later Avyakt murilis. And the PBKS who are joining recently wouldn't also be having any clue of those years until they came across those. 2.) I have watched the video of the murili reading by Ram soul, (considered by PBK) very carefully. In that he saying that shiva baba says Paramathma (supreme soul) to Ram soul and No.1 soul to Dada lekraj. And further it was explained Ram soul reached the stage of shivababa, so thats why shivababa calls him supreme soul. Well if actual supreme soul says other person in this earth as supreme soul. Can this be true? 3.) In the video it was said about rememberance that Point of light is not correct to remember, which wasn't the case even in recent Avyakt murilis. And to one Avyakt murili which I even listened it live in video that to remember point of light. Then this can't be one thing which is changed from head quarter of BKS. 4.) Also it was said that the word shivababa infers two souls that is shiva and baba ...shiva is God one who doesn't come to earth and baba is Ram soul. Can this be true? However what I think PBKS are not one what they say or what they think they are but probably shivababa doing some other task with them other wise they wouldn't have continued till now, if shivababa doesn't like it Any ways lets wait and can look into more facts. thanks satish
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:20 am Post subject: |
Dear Arjuna, I know that it is important to quote murlis and I would be happy to receive your murli date references and/or accurate quotes with accurate translations by private email (especially the 1966 sakar murli regarding 1976). As the Administrator pointed out, I find it not only infuriating, but suspicious and misleading when the medium is not identified. On some of your websites, you mix murli quotations together, ad infinitum, without identifying the medium and, in some cases the translations are not very good (isn't it!). As a seasoned murli reader, the PBK ones stick out like a sore thumb even without the identification of the medium, but it wouldn't be the case for a new student. If you want any credibility, please explain the 'facts' clearly , without any ambiguity so that we can all understand..............we are all seekers of the Truth and we are still listenening, but there is no room for blind faith. love wahl
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: |
arjuna wrote:
Dear brothers, Omshanti. The whole discussion on this topic revolves around murlis and the administrator has banned us from qoting murlis and even if we quote it should not be more than two lines. So how do you expect any fruitful discussion on this topic? We can quote murlis or avyakta vanis related to the topic. But first the ban on quoting them should be waived. With regards, Arjuna
On this subject I think that quotes of two lines are all we need, because we just need to know what is said about 'destruction taking place in 1976'. I know you have talked about the picture painted in 1966, but but pbk sumit has mentioned there was also a sakar murli of this year. Also as I said before I would expect there would have been further mentions between 1966 and 1976. I doubt however that such murlis have survived. What we know is that the whole of the BKWSU hierarchy were gathered in Madhuban in January 1977, and believed that the time for destruction had come. So the question is - why did they believe that? OK there was the picture in 1966 but there must have been more to it than that.
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
arjuna wrote:
Dear Wahl, Omshanti. I do not think that Shivbaba must have directly spoken or declared the so-called destruction of 1976 in any of the murlis prior to 1969. Baba has never specified any date.
Dear Arjuna, Om shanti. OK your statement here completely contradicts the statement by pbk sumit ...
pbk sumit wrote:
In one of the murlis given by God Shiva through corporeal medium of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma) in 1966, it was announced that destruction would take place after 10 years (i.e. in 1976)
I don't expect we are going to be able to resolve this here. Firstly because many murlis have been lost and also because there are few BK's / XBK's / PBK's around now who were there in the sixties and seventies and can talk about what happened.
arjuna wrote:
All the confusion about 1976 must have originated from the misinterpretation of statement made in the picture of Lakshmi Narayan. The pictures at the time of Dada Lekhraj used to be prepared on the basis of divine visions (saakshaatkaars). So the bks at that including Dada Lekhraj must have got confused/ misinterpreted the statement made in the picture.
I agree that the belief re 1976 may have originated in the picture of 1966 but I think that more fuel must have been added to this fire in the next few years otherwise by the time of 1976, people would have forgotten about the picture of 1966. Anyway I think it's a big problem if Dada Lekhraj cannot correctly interpret his own visions on such important and fundamental matters. I mean didn't BKWSU originate with such visions?
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
arjuna wrote:
Dear Wahl, Omshanti. The original course pictures were prepared not just on the basis of divine visions caused to Dada Lekhraj but also to other sisters. But since the pictures were verified by Shivbaba (through the medium of BB) we cannot find fault with the the pictures. It is our lack of understanding or misinterpretation which led to the rumours of destruction in 1976.
Dear Arjuna, Om Shanti. I am not Wahl! You say 'our' misinterpretation, but surely it is Dada Lekhraj's misinterpretation that is most concerning. You say that the picture was verified in a sakar murli, but why was the wrong belief that destruction would happen in 1977 not corrected by Shivbaba for ten years? If BK's were telling people (eg the Indian government) that destruction would take place in 1977, surely BKWSU would look foolish when this didn't happen. Also great confusion was caused within BKWSU and many people left gyan. Also can I ask were you in Madhuban for January 18, 1977 or do you have the murli of this date? Hanuman writes above that he was there, and he gives a different version to you. He says that destruction was scheduled for 1977 (no misintepretation) but that on January 18, 1977 BD announced that it was postponed.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
It appears that we have no murli reference quoting Baba to have specified 1976 as the date of destruction after all.......there really was just a picture..........and........ Arjuna said
Quote:
Actually, that statment in the picture referred to the reveletion of Shiva through Shankar, who began the task of destruction of demoniac vices and demoniac brahmins from the Brahmin family in 1976
Please can someone help me get this straight........destruction of demoniac vices and demoniac brahmins....is this what you mean by destruction of the world? I think not because this is clearly a different statement altogether? Isn't this referring to purification of certain souls via Shankar? Did Shankar's role begin in 1976? Also, in an earlier posting, Arjuna,
Quote:
Most of the proofs about the declaration of 1976 as the year of reveletion or destrucion are from the Avyakta Vanis narrated through Gulzar Dadi.
Are these Avyakta Vanis different from the Avyakt murlis that Dadi Gulzar has narrated and, if so, who is responsible for changing them and why? love wahl
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: |
Dear Arjuna, I know that I have explained my position on the BK/PBK arguments and that I would prefer to 'move on', but there is one last thing that I would like you to answer for me. wahl said
Quote:
Are these Avyakta Vanis different from the Avyakt murlis that Dadi Gulzar has narrated and, if so, who is responsible for changing them and why?
Please could you address the second half of my question (words in bold) because I am still unclear about this. Thanks. love wahl
khormoz Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Brampton, Canada |
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject: |
Om shanti Arjuna Thanks for the summary. In the summary, you said:
Quote:
manipulation used to take place, which has been mentioned in one of the revised murli, dated 10.3.87 by the Supreme Father Shiva Himself
When you say "revised", do you mean the revision of a sakar murli (originally spoken through BB on day x) that was read in BK centres on that day (10.3.87) or do you mean the revision of a sakar murli (originally spoken through BB on day y) that was done through the medium of VDD on that day? Or does ShivBaba speaking through VDD revise the same murli that is being read in BK centres? You mentioned that only a few cassettes remain of the murlis spoken through BB. I have also considered it unusual that only a few were available for purchase. Do you have access to any of them (in cassette or vcd or anything else) where we could arrange for copies to be made? I would also be interested in purchasing a vcd or cassette of murli spoken through VDD. Is that available only to BKs who have taken the PBK course? Regards, khormoz
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