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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: TRUE SPIRITUAL FREEDOM |
I recently declared that I no longer wanted to participate in the BK/PBK debate. Since, then I have had three PBKs correspond with me privately. The following is part of an email that I recently sent to one of them. Does anyone else feel the same way as me? (No PBK debates please)
Quote:
Dear........, I don't think it is important to be a BK, a PBK, a Christian, a Muslim a Buddhist or part of any other 'ism'. If there is the need to attach a label to your spirituality then I feel that it is positively a hindrance. Despite the numbers of times I have mentioned it on the forum, everyone likes to label me as a BK. I am not a BK. I was a BK for many years and learned much from that knowledge, but I really do insist that I am no longer 'subscribing' to the BK organisation. What I have done is take to my own heart, the truth of that knowledge and try to use it to get nearer to God. The BK's do not OWN the basic truths such as the knowledge of the soul, of meditation and of yoga. How can anyone own it? It is like saying that gravity would not exist if Newton had never been born. He didn't own gravity and other people didn't have to be with Newton or follow him to understand the knowledge of gravity.......He only exposed that knowledge, just like the BKs exposed gyan on behalf of God. What I am trying to say is that, to cling on to a label such as the BKs or PBKs etc, for me, is like a slow spiritual suffocation. We get so tied up with the organisation and the people within it, we don't have the first chance to see the Truth as it really is. It is almost irrelevant who is the chariot, who are the golden Krishna and Radhe etc., what matters is WHO I AM. I think that the fundamentals of gyan, ie the knowledge of the soul, Supreme Soul, meditation, yoga, cycle, karma, are the only tools that I need. They are the only things that apply to ME, the SOUL. These are fundamental spiritual laws and just because the BKs made me aware of them, doesn't mean that the rest of the 'package', as you say, is compulsory. Since leaving the BK path, I have read many different books, come into contact with many different people and situations all of which have also made me aware of theses spiritual truths. I haven't attached myself to them. A rule of thumb for me now is that a spiritual truth is not authentic if, in order to sustain it, I have to depend on another human soul or souls.To learn something via a human being is one thing but it is not necessary to attach myself to them in order to carry on living that truth. God is available to us all directly and His message is very very simple indeed. It is LOVE. How easily, as human beings, we allow ourselves to get distracted from this and tangled up in our man made rules and dogmas..........it never ceases to amaze me! I hope this makes my position clear. When I inquire about anything spiritually it is because I think there may be something for me to learn. This is why I was curious about the PBK knowledge. Unfortunately, I see more of the same human influences, trying to tell me how to think and feel, and as I try to go further into it, I can feel my spiritual antenna shutting down. It's not for me. So, in the light of this, I feel that I need to be honest with you and tell you that I don't want to follow up the PBK studies. I really would be wasting your time. I was curious but it feels too much like hard work for me now.
love wahl om shanti
Frank Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands |
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
Om Shanti. Dear Wahl, I subscribe your point of view totally. I never felt I left the BK and became XBK or else. My visits to the centre just deminished. Sometimes I go for classes and also it is for me a bit difficult to attend the morning Murli because I travel by train and other public transport so cannot be there in time. I've got warm feelings for all BK that I know, but do not believe in holyness of organisations for they are manmade. I studied the PBK knowledge and seen the video of the PBK medium. My impression was that all the facts and figures did not enlight me. It took me some time to read and reason all of the PBK advanced knowledge. Clarification did not occur however. I went from atheist to theist in this life. I came from an atheist family and was not brought up with Bhakti or any religion. After having a vision of the Golden age at the age of 7 it took me 5 years to start up my quest in finding a suitable religion. I studied them all until Baba's knowledge (found me)suited me 7 years ago and received a vision and felt the presence of the Paramatma. Shivbaba is my anchor ever since and I filter everything in life through my relationship with Him. _________________ ONLY SILENCE REMAINS, when I listen to him, when I listen to the silence
Frank Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands |
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
Hello Wahl, I cannot subscribe PBK knowledge (jet) Here is a letter I have sent regarding this issue. Frank Om shanti. Thank you for your concern. Indeed I have been churning a lot on the advanced knowledge I have read it over and over. For me it is difficult to grasp. I am a soul that went from atheist to theist in this life. Bhakti was strange to me. I come from a family of all atheist, was physically born in The Netherlands/Europe and studied a lot of the scriptures. My family originated fron Germany in 1710 and were reformists in rebellion against the Bhakti of the Catholic church that fled Germany in the religious 60 year war there. Later the family harvested a protestant minister and later lost their faith totally. 7 years ago I had instant recognition of Baba's knowledge through the BK and had a few My subconcious knowledge suddenly emerged and the wheel of selfrealisation started spinning. Intuition plays a great role for me as detatched observer. India for me was like coming home. I felt that all my many former lives there payed me a warm welcome. Instant recognition. In Madhuban I was a detached observer. I have seen all ins and outs. In contrast to most BK's that visit Madhuban from other country's, I got a good view of what the organisation is like and how the teaching of knowledge takes place in India. I followed the lessons in Shanti Van and visited the museum at Mount Abu. I noticed that there is a lot of love for Baba everywhere, but that the teaching of knowledge in, for example Europe and the rest of the Western World differs to that in India. In Europe the knowledge is stripped from most Bhaki influences and Indian culture. Baba said: "You now belong to the Brahmin culture" This means that the so called "Double Foreighners" are more Gyani than the Indian BK's. This was all orchestrated by Janki Dadi. She is the fundamentalist of the seed stage. The seed stage is very important. It contains everything and the whole character of the tree of creation. So this also goes back to the beginning. Om Shanti, I am a soul and my eternal religion is peace. Now PBK knowledge. I have seen all the posters etc in Madhuban from the 1960's and took them home as a souvenir and because I like them. I felt the admosphere of Indian BK teaching and expanation. So now I read PBK knowledge and I respect it very much, but for me it adds nothing really new other than facts and figures. I am sorry to say it. Enlightment for me is different. Even if the chariot of Shiv is still on earth or if Brahma Baba was still on earth in the Sakar state is a passed station now on the eve of destruction. The Father has been revealed already by Brahma and we need no Guru any more other than the Satguru, the One. Everything has been said. It is now to act according to Shrimat and become pure so to create Heaven. Numbers do not count even being numberwise is not important. Time has come to unite and form one party. As soon as I read the signs on the stage of drama I will enlist with all my heart. For now I will stay the detached observer and enjoy life, the drama, purity and view the Mahabharat war between BK, XBK, PBK and other religions. Love, rememberance and Namaste IBY Frank _________________ ONLY SILENCE REMAINS, when I listen to him, when I listen to the silence
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject: |
Dear Frank, The Father has been revealed already by Brahma and we need no Guru any more other than the Satguru, the One. Everything has been said. It is now to act according to Shrimat and become pure so to create Heaven. I agree, this is the most important aspect and there is no need to expand on anything else. with love, Wahl om shanti
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: |
Dear Whal and Frank I agree with your opinions.. Father Supreme soul has been revealed already. And it is definitely waste of time to understand who is top role,who is less role, and who is villian in this world drama, when one understand that drama is fixed and one should be happy for going into heaven. Also do the possible effort for becoming pure... thanks with love satish
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
Hi Whal, In responding to another post - the Social Context of Cults - I seemed to drift into your topic here so I was wondering whether you'd like to check that out as well as the post I did sometime ago on the Messenger & the message in the xbk discussion forum - last section in particular? That is still a major preoccupation of mine. Care to comment? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
Dear Gy, God is subtle and we need to be have a pure and subtle consciousness in order to understand His message. We just have to let go of any mental obstacles that get in the way of allowing this consciousness to develop. Purity is the key to this I feel. with much love wahl
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
Thanks dear. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
Dear Gy, For me, unfortunately, I find it difficult to selectively accept or reform what I once held as sacred knowledge. There is something about integrity that bothers me there.... Please could you elaborate on this for me Gy. What exactly is it that you have difficulty with and how does integrity come into it? I am really curious about this with love wahl
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
Hello Whal, I appreciate the extended interest and promise to respond but right now my day has extended beyond 24 hours so as soon as I get a chance I'll clarify what I mean. Warm regards, Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: |
Hi Whal, I had promised to respond to your query on my comment on integrity. For the benefit of others, let me place the comment in its original context and then expand on what I mean. I had written:
Quote:
“The difference between the Christians and other paths (cults?) of Bhakti and the BKs is faith in that claim to immediacy of access to the Supreme Soul in the corporeal world through a meeting in Madhuban. At least that was how I saw it in the mid seventies when I experienced the path. It is often difficult or nigh impossible for an xbk to convey the reality of this difference to the outsider or those who have never assumed such faith.; and if we reflect on xbk posts on this site, it takes years to work that belief out of your system and experience another, so that we tend to retain an emotional attachment to the BK 'construct' - since it is the closest we came to experiencing God - and live with the contradictions between our "hearts" and our "heads." Sometime ago there was a member named Casa who raised this dilemma. I guess the road to "recovery" is long and full of diversions and placebos. A pragmatist might say "well if some of it works for you keep it and discard the rest!" I understand that is also the modern stand of the BKs (not so, long ago, if you really wanted to follow the path). For me, unfortunately, I find it difficult to selectively accept or reform what I once held as sacred knowledge. There is something about integrity that bothers me there....”
I use the word integrity with two meanings here: one, in the sense of ‘wholeness and soundness’; the other, in the sense of ‘honesty’. In the first meaning, I am alluding to the “unadulterated Truth” of a body of knowledge explaining the “History and Geography of the World” we live in as well as the true nature of the human soul, the Supreme Soul, and the interaction between the two and planet earth. That “Truth” is purportedly uttered by the Supreme Soul who declares Himself that, for the destruction of evil and the reestablishment of good on earth, He must incarnate every 5000 years in a human body. This was said to have happened in 1936 when He declared His identity through the medium of Dada Lekraj whom he renamed Prajapita Brahma, or the Western Judeo-Christian equivalent of Adam. You have the essential knowledge so I needn’t go into more details. My point is that your faith in God is based on this entire story of Prajapita Brahma and the Brahma Kumaris [I gather this from your agreement with Frank]. That same faith, however, precludes any excising of its fundamental articles or tenets as recorded in the Original Gita which was published and withdrawn very early in the BKs history and on which the 7 days course is based. Such excising and alterations are usually done in scriptures of the world and that was one of the main reasons declared by Shiv Baba for his entry into our world at this time – to set right the things that have gone wrong. To speculate on His meanings - as a result of contradictions emerging with the advancement of time - and to alter them through our human interpretations instead of directly asking Him for clarifications is to call into question the authenticity of the whole body of knowledge and, naturally, the source of that knowledge. As Isabel remarked very early in our discussions last year, there can be no “halfies” here: one either has complete faith or one doesn’t. If we have complete faith that this is God speaking then, failing to ask Him directly and get a direct response, we must somehow rationalize in our heads the discrepancies that face us or blank them out and hold blindly to that faith in our hearts. There is no room for half way points here if one is intent on keeping the faith that GOD ALMIGHTY is speaking through the Brahma Kumaris. So when I remark on integrity I am referring to the soundness and wholeness of the knowledge. The other meaning, “honesty”, alludes to the dishonest attempts to rationalize or explain away discrepancies even though the Supreme Himself is supposed to be available on Earth to explain exactly what he means by what he said at His advent in 1936. Faith in His presence here on Earth amidst the affairs of our world is what is supposed to give value to each second. We used to be told it is the quality of faith that will cause thousands to jump off that steep road leading to Mt. Abu when they realize who is sitting up there. How, then, can one keep that faith and remain estranged from “the centre of His creation” in the form of his “Divine Family?” [I had discussed this at length with Bkry last year in a topic she raised on “The Gathering of Shankars”]. This “latter day faith” held in estrangement from His prime task is a fundamental contradiction in the soul, for it is He who keeps saying when the world sees the change in you then will they have faith in Who is teaching. If, instead, we adopt the position that we believe ourselves as souls, points of light and energy, and that God, the Supreme Soul is also a point of light and energy but we don’t believe in all aspects of the knowledge uttered by that same source, then how can we maintain a faith that it is indeed the Supreme Soul speaking? To do so is to cast aspersions on His integrity. So when I see you, in dismissing the PBKs, agreeing with Frank thus:
Quote:
Dear Frank, The Father has been revealed already by Brahma and we need no Guru any more other than the Satguru, the One. Everything has been said. It is now to act according to Shrimat and become pure so to create Heaven. I agree, this is the most important aspect and there is no need to expand on anything else. with love, Wahl
I am perplexed. That is how the question of “integrity” arises. Then when I saw your response to me:
Quote:
Dear Gy, God is subtle and we need to be have a pure and subtle consciousness in order to understand His message. We just have to let go of any mental obstacles that get in the way of allowing this consciousness to develop. Purity is the key to this I feel. with much love wahl
I thought: How ironic. This is just what the BKs and PBKs would tell me based on their current faith. To the full believer (paka Brahmin) raising questions on contradictions and veracity of knowledge is sacrilegious. To make them valid is to admit inadequacies and introduce doubts on the integrity (wholeness) of the knowledge as well as on the integrity (honesty) of a source claiming to be the “Ocean of Knowledge.” I know that pain and anguish. I have lived with it for years. It has reduced me to silent tears on occasion. And so, noting your sweet tone and choice of words coming in the wake of your other posts, I decided to thank you politely and let the matter rest with you since, as former BKs, we might each evolve in unique ways. On the other hand, there might be others who share my dilemma. Now that you seem genuinely interested I wonder if you can help me. Fraternally, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:17 am Post subject: |
Dear Gy, I am going to be extremely busy at work for the next couple of days and I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you. I have read your posting lots of times and have many thoughts on it but I will have to get back to you in a couple days when I have made some 'space' to listen to my thoughts and put them into words theat make sense (hopefully)! with love, wahl
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
Dear Gy, Your posting got me thinking! I will try to explain my position by responding to some of your statements.
Quote:
My point is that your faith in God is based on this entire story of Prajapita Brahma and the Brahma Kumaris.
This is partly but not entirely true. My faith in god is based on two aspects. One is via music and the other is via gyan according to God. Music…………..this may sound strange because music is fundamentally a physical experience, but, as a young musician, I instinctively knew that within the vibration of silence and stillness there was (is) a power that is difficult to describe with words. In fact it is impossible. Nevertheless I realised that within silence and stillness, there was some sort of language or energy which was undoubtedly more than just ‘no sound’. The vibration of silence has power and I knew that, at some point, I would know more about it. When I came across gyan, some 20 years later, of course, it all made sense.
Quote:
If we have complete faith that this is God speaking then, failing to ask Him directly and get a direct response, we must somehow rationalize in our heads the discrepencies…..
I don’t have any discrepencies between my head and my heart but if you have some yourself, I don’t know why you would think it not possible to ask Him directly anyway?
Quote:
How then, can one keep that faith and remain estranged from “the centre of His creation” in the form of his “Divine Family?”
I never went to Madubhan. I couldn’t rationalise my reasons then or now, but despite being given the opportunity year after year to go, I just simply didn’t want to go. People told me I was missing out, but I didn’t feel that I was. Possibly I did miss out? It’s never been much of an issue for me. Not attending murli class was something that was very much frowned upon and I beat myself up about it when I was not able to attend due to lokik timetables. I still studied very regularly at home and after a while I began to realise that, whilst the company of other Bk souls was good (not always!), it wasn’t essential. God is beyond the limitations of physical geography so, looking back, it was ridiculous to think that I couldn’t have access to God if I wasn’t in a particular place to link with Him. A clean and clear intellect is what was really required, and it needed to be ‘in healthy shape’, free from guilt!
Quote:
If instead, we adopt the position that we believe ourselves as souls, points of light and energy, and that God, the Supreme Soul is also a point of light and energy but we don’t believe the knowledge uttered by that same source, then how can we maintain a faith that it is indeed the Supreme Soul speaking.
I do believe in all aspects of the knowledge from this source. However, the difference for me, is that I don’t accept that I have to remain within the BK organisation in order to ‘live’ this knowledge. The knowledge of the soul, the Supreme Soul, the power of yoga, the law of karma, the cycle, the tree…………..if we take all of these aspects of knowledge and look at them with a totally open mind, it is obvious that these are eternal, universal laws that will and have always existed, even before the advent of Brahma Baba and the BK organisation. Brahma Baba gave me the ‘magic key’ in the form of knowledge that he was fortunate enough to receive directly from God. Brahma Baba would, I believe have been the first to acknowledge that he didn’t own that key. He was always keen to emphasis the fact that he was just a chariot. The BKs, as an organisation, also don’t own that key. Is it possible that there may be other souls on the earth that have received this knowledge from God? The Golden Age, Heaven will consist of only the pure souls, but how do we know that they will all be BKs? Who knows? I just don’t go along with the idea that the BKs have a monopoly on the direct access to God. om shanti with love and much respect wahl
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject: |
Thanks for replying Whal. From what you have said I can see that we did not have the same kind of experience. I visited Madhuban on more than one occasion. Your response to the idea gives me an insight to the level or quality of your faith (which I can apprehend but not comprehend). I have met and known individuals like yourself in gyan and always marvelled at their lack of interest in "meeting God." It's a bit like a devout Buddhist or Christian saying I'm not really interested in meeting the Buddha or Christ - even when they are within physical/earthly reach. Your apprehension of God, then, does/did not correspond to the faith of the BKs, especially since it was so often said (in murlis too) that if the world realised who was teaching they would run to Madhuban, the Honey Grove. That realization is the foundation of the BK faith (as meeting VDD is now essential to the PBK faith); for BKs, it is immortalized in the story of Krishna and the Gopis playing and dancing Ras. Your lack of interest in Madhuban - and please don't think I'm criticising you for it - tells me that you do not really believe that God incarnates but rather, as I sometimes reflect, He inspires individuals or sends angelic beings to enlighten Man. In that kind of faith one might say that Brahma had a sort of ephiphany sitting in that room on an evening in 1936 when some sort of angelic being possessed his body and began uttering the knowledge in which you have faith. The problem with that belief is that the entity clearly identified Himself as God Almighty: "Gyan-swaroop Ham, ShivoHam, ShivoHam; Pyar-swaroop Ham, ShivoHam, ShivoHam ... etc." When this identity is coupled with utterances of the kind of "universal Truths" you have recognized in the knowledge - and which definitely "fit into your intellect" - then you can see that that combination following in the wake of long years or lives of devotion or searching for "God" can have a powerful hold on your entire being. From what you have said, however, your faith is/was based more on a comprehension of the utterances rather than an apprehension of what Christians might call the "Immanuel experience", that is "the experience of 'God With Us' or Peter's reverence when he said 'Thou art the Christ' ". Long ago (in gyan) we used to call this a transformation from Bhakti devotion to Gyan devotion. There is said to be a trilogy of experience:Bhakti-Gyan-Viragye in which one moves from Devotional yearning to Realization of God through His Self-Revealed knowledge to distaste for the old World, which leads one to surrender totally to God. That is how I became a Centre-niwasi, wrote my letter of surrender to God, taught His knowledge as I strove to inculcate it, and went to meet Him twice in Madhuban! Such was my faith. So when you share with me a lack of interest in meeting God "in person" then I can see that there has been a difference in our experience of 'reality.' When I consider my estrangement and anguish then your experience actually seems enviable - and actually I have been trying for years to make that transition. The thing is, it requires another "experience" to replace (displace?) the emotional bond formed during those BK days. So one day, perhaps, if I am lucky I might be - like C.S.Lewis - 'Surprised by Joy.' Continued blessings friend, Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:52 am Post subject: |
Dear Gy, In the light of your ongoing dilemma, I think my earlier post still applies because, at the end of the day, it's still you and Him regardless of the geography. Manmanabhav. God is subtle and we need to be have a pure and subtle consciousness in order to understand His message. We just have to let go of any mental obstacles that get in the way of allowing this consciousness to develop. Purity is the key to this I feel. The mental obstacles come in all sorts of shapes and forms and are always of your own creation! om shanti and good luck........ with much love wahl
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