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primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: |
Before I create a discussion on ADHD I would just like to throw in a footnote here - I do not consider ADHD a disorder at all. I call it 'wide spectrum'. This reflects our capacity to be better or worse than typical (normal) people. (Normal = common. Abnormal = uncommon, that's all). The medication they put ADHD people on is pure amphetamine (ie: speed). But it slows us down! I don't need it or want it. They generally only give it to ADHD kids because they won't sit still in the classroom. As for reading, I can read volumes - I was reading books (fiction at an adult level) on a regular basis by the age of 8. But don't ask me to read a book that I'm not interested in - like any wide spectrum person, we can only concentrate when or if we want to. I am sure that it was because of my ADHD that I could meditate so successfully. I loved amrit vela and was there everyday for the first 14 years of my Bk life - I may have missed it 4 or 5 times in all those years, and I had brilliant experiences almost everytime. I thought it was yoga. Now I understand it very differently, but more on that later. And just lastly - an interesting twist that some may find interesting: to cut a long story short I know 5 guys who were in the SAS (special Air Service - probably the most highly regarded military specialist unit in the world). They are all ADHD. I think the army actually seeks it for that level of specialisation. It also demonstrates the love ADHD people have for structure and codes. The Bk's are the 'spiritual army' (reference from the murli), and it is all about structure (mariadas) and code (shrimat).
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: ADD & ADDH and Gyan |
PL, Well I am glad that we are in agreement on the medications. PL,
Quote:
And just lastly - an interesting twist that some may find interesting: to cut a long story short I know 5 guys who were in the SAS (special Air Service - probably the most highly regarded military specialist unit in the world). They are all ADHD.
My brother is in the military and yes, it takes just that mind set to get the job done. I can recall in grade school that one "teacher" was adamant that he was developmentally delayed as she said he was hyper and wouldn’t listen to her history lesson. My mother disagreed and had him independently tested. Almost two thousand dollars later we learned no he was not developmentally delayed, he was above average in intelligence and yes, he was correct in correcting her about the history lesson as she didn’t know what she was talking about as he was obsessed with military history and knew every detail. Today, he doesn’t seem hyper as he now knows that most people don’t know or care to know many details about history or other facts. His work at age twenty is currently in two college text books about sociology and civics. As to the reading, do read EROMAINS report and see how the SS redirects individuals as to what is “important” to know/learn/study! Yes, this can set ones priorities based on what others want and not necessarily what that individual wants or needs especially at a very young age. Making life choices bases on the direction of an authoritative figure can lead to consequences later in life once one is out of Gyan. Put in that context you can see how repetitive prompts would lead one to be a “good Gyan student”. The important thing to note is that one can be equally successful in the world once these prompts (indoctrination cues) are removed/tossed out. I look forward to more discussions of the mind from you….. Regards, Tete
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
some one close to me spoke to a member (whom this person knew, respected and saw as BK family ) of the Chat, that this person was able to read unabated for hours as if given permission from a higher source. All I understand is that for what ever reason you (XBKs) can release others of this programming.
Tete: Please clarify this. Are you saying that this "respected person" recognizes that xbk (chat) can release others from BK programming? I know talking here helps but can it really have that much significance? Any idea what the views of the "higher authority" might have been after feedback? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: Correction |
Gy, Perhaps higher authority was not the word but rather respected/love for/of in the BK family way. You know that bonding thing you all seem to do. I don't know what all was said but I know it helped. They spoke to one another. I try not to poke my nose too much in the details as I know you all tell each other things that only you understand. I was just glad that the love of brotherhood was there and that what ever each told the other helped. So, I guess in a way I am proving some ones point here... Ay Caramba. I can relate in an unrelated way. When I had some one die suddenly and violently many people would try and comfort me by telling me “I know just how you feel”. I knew they didn’t, how could they? When my friend’s husband was killed my husband without warning threw me a curve ball right in front of her “She knows what it is like…ask her anything…she is here to help you”. In a way I had forgotten…but it all came rushing back. I could see in her eyes it was a comfort to know that some how she too was going to be OK. We smiled in an odd way at each other…we were now in an exclusive club where one doesn’t particularly run around announcing membership. I guess in a way I knew this and sort of communicated this to the other one who was most gracious. Please let me say it isn't a thing of one being superior to the other...it is a trust factor. As I remembered one BK person coming to seek mine out in dire need, many moons ago. The SS had told this person some thing and this person was so troubled. Mine listened and gave this person his thoughts. I can recall the person looked lighter...as if some burden had been lifted. I wondered why this person traveled so far to see him. Basic idea I suppose...he was the respected one, the person to trust, the bond thing had happened. Just like when I learned some thing from you and went back and said Ah HA....I know what this is. Same basic truth...you knew...he knew I knew. Recognizing it is part of undoing it. That is why I am still here learning all I can, as this isn't a simple thing... I call it the your a duck I am a duck thing...when you recognize some one that is like you, understands you etc. One hand reaching out to guide the other one out of the cave into the light. I am lucky in that many here have offered me their hand when I needed it. Regards, Tete P.S. Gy thank you for your guidance...
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: resource listing |
OK my friends. Can we start to set up the resource list for XBKs we talked about earlier? There are many resources known to you folks, and you have all been very helpful. At present the different resources are scattered all over the web site, and it would be a good idea for them all to be collected together in one place. That way it will be easier for someone like me to find what I need. A sort of “First Aid Kit” for leaving BKs, XBKs, and non-BKs affected by the issues we work with. There will definitely be books, and web sites. There is Eromain’s Report. Maybe there are even some people who would be willing to help personally with ‘phone calls, mailing of books to help or whatever? I am very new to this so I don’t know how to start. Do we need to send a message to the administrator to suggest this idea? Let us get it done as soon as we can because there are many folks out there needing help. My friend, the XBK sister whose plight first prompted me to start this topic, is doing very well thanks to all your help. She is well on the road to recovery, but as you know these process takes a long time. Tete – I forgot to mention, do not worry please, you have not given away her identity or location, and thank you for all your kind support. So – how do we make it easier for the next new person, and get all the resources listed in one place as soon as we can. I do not know the procedure. So, once again, Help Please! Sam.
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: pre-gyan |
Some ideas that have been proved for me by my recent experiences with my friend here may throw some light on the matters we are dealing with. Personally I had a lot of problems when I was younger, and I went through a lot of therapy of various kinds. I am mostly free from those problems now, or I know about them, have strategies to deal with them, and am in the process of working with them. My point being, I did a lot of work on myself before I ever knew about the BKs. In contrast, most BKs I have met have not done much psychological work on themselves before becoming BKs. Their personal problems have been put on hold while they have been in gyan. They do not work on themselves in a positive way while in gyan, quite the reverse in fact. When they leave gyan all these problems come to the front again and they have to deal with them. Gyan has been a sort of “security blanket” for them during their time as BKs. What I have seen is that the post traumatic stress syndrome we see in people leaving gyan can come from stress and trauma that happened BEFORE they went into gyan and was made worse or at best kept stable while they were in gyan. This seems, from my experience, to be true for a large range of disorders. Some I have come across personally are:- Manic Depression, Addictive Personality, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I have learned from posts in this thread that others are:- Attention Deficit Disorder, Attention Hyperactivity Deficit Disorder, and others on that spectrum. Spectrum is a good word, because none of us is completely fitting into a category. Gyan, or rather the BK institution, acts as a magnet for people with these and other personal problems. This is not unique to the BKs at all. In many work places and institutions I have been involved in the situation has been similar. To give a specific example, I once worked in an office with a friend who has obvious problems with obsessive compulsive disorder, and she is also a severe workaholic. This fitted in nicely with the culture of the company, which is a charity and loves to employ people who are addicted to work and are compulsive and obsessive about every little detail of their work. My friend was so stressed but she would not slow down or give herself any peace. She worked long hours for no extra pay, she worked right through her lunch hour, she drove herself into exhaustion. Unfortunately I did not feel at the time that I could help her by myself, anyway she did not realise she had a problem. She still refuses to see a doctor or psychiatrist but she has stopped working. How? She was in a car wreck. Literally. Rushing to work and obsessed with work and not focussed on driving her car. I have seen so many BKs who drive themselves in this way. The problem is that they are rewarded for it. The worse their condition becomes the harder they push themselves. So they are seen as making more effort, or doing more service. So they must be better BKs. The cycle continues, the stress gets worse, and finally the crash happens. Not the literal car wreck, but the personality breakdown and mental illness. Then all the problems that gyan seemed to magic away when they took gyan come back full force. So we have an individual who has been in denial about their personality problems, whose problems are made worse by being encouraged by the institution, and who finally crashes and burns out. They are then left to pick up the pieces of a life that should have been worked out perhaps decades ago. Sam.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: Pre-Gyan |
Sam, Your post pre-gyan post is a HASTY GENERALIZATION! Sam,
Quote:
Their personal problems have been put on hold while they have been in gyan. They do not work on themselves in a positive way while in gyan, quite the reverse in fact. When they leave gyan all these problems come to the front again and they have to deal with them. Gyan has been a sort of “security blanket” for them during their time as BKs. What I have seen is that the post traumatic stress syndrome we see in people leaving gyan can come from stress and trauma that happened BEFORE they went into gyan and was made worse or at best kept stable while they were in gyan.
In rebuttal I cite the Stanford Prison Experiment : http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/stanford.htm Experiment,
Quote:
In August 1971, an advertisement appeared in the Palo Alto Times: "Male college students needed for psychological study of prison life. $15 per day for 1-2 weeks..." Seventy men responded. Among them, two dozen were chosen to participate in the experiment because based on interviews and a battery of psychological tests they were judged to be the most normal, average and healthy.
This Experiment took healthy, academically high achieving students who passed psychological tests, physical examination and were the cream de la cream. http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/relaged/970108prisonexp.html The female participant stated the following that helped to stop the study: Experiment,
Quote:
"At that point, I felt there was something wrong with me, thinking here I am, I'm supposed to be a psychologist, I'm supposed to understand, and I was having a hard time watching what was happening to these kids."
So the premise that everyone is dysfunctional before coming to GYAN is incorrect and at best a hasty generalization. I have read many posts were the individuals cite similar treatment by the “SS” thus correctly titled for their authoritarian structure and therefore not referred to as the Sisters of Charity=SC! The ones that seem to be most egregiously affected have been the very young inductees. So, one can take the most intelligent, bright individuals and then feed them daily messages of destruction, tell them they are now in a pecking order (the Golden Age , the Silver Age etc.) and you begin to deconstruct the individual. Then of course you remove their family and support system. Yet we can not place blame on the “organization”? There was another study where a teacher would tell the class that the children were of a particular intelligence given their eye color. Well, this too caused some consequences and was stopped. I cite the Stanford study because it is by far the most widely recognized one and because it was STOPPED! In essence if you read the study you may find some of the very situations that others cite here Experiment,
Quote:
Guards applied total control on each prisoner's life, including going to the toilet. ….
years later just as the study participant. So, before we are all summarily diagnosed and categorized so as not to place BLAME on the organization let’s look at it from a scientific point. Cause and affect. Prime.Logic step in at any time…..please. First, if you tell some one that they are less than the others, you have begun to deconstruct the individual: self full filling prophecy, they will now prove you right! You have put in the instruction for the individual to feel less than others, yet better than most. There in begins the conflict in logic to live with. Then you remove all tactile feeling that every human being needs, throw in celibacy and remove even verbal praise. Some of these SS folks can sure dish out some stuff; do read the posts of how they will verbally thrash some in full view of others without any discretion further deconstructing the individual. Experiment
Quote:
They exhibited disorganized thinking, uncontrollable crying, withdrawing, and behaving in pathological ways. As a result, researchers had to release five prisoners from the experiment prematurely
. Oh, and don’t forget that any problems that arise are “their” fault…maybe they are just not being good enough…spiritual enough. Now as to the families and others: Experiment
Quote:
The experimenters forgot that they were there to observe and collect data. Instead, they started to assume the role of prison staff and supervisor. A priest who visited the prison started to contact parents of the prisoners about arranging lawyers to bail them out. The parents, who had visited the prison themselves, seem to also have forgot that theirs sons had the right to withdraw from the experiment. They actually started to arrange lawyers. And a lawyer actually came...
So, from my vantage point here having never been inducted but had some of the practices without full knowledge I say this: Is it fair to blame the XBKs for their current condition, is it fair to say it is their problem, is it fair not to raise the DANGER FLAG to warn others, is it fair to continue with the hidden practices that are causing harm? Can we live with our selves if we look the other way? To help others in essence is a form of healing ones self…is it not. Is this not what we are doing here, by sharing and not judging? I welcome any comments or ideas after you view the sites. Regard Prisoner NBK #911, Tete
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
Hi Tete You say:
Quote:
So the premise that everyone is dysfunctional before coming to GYAN is incorrect and at best a hasty generalization.
I agree it is a generalisation, but it does fit in with my own personal experience and observations. It is certainly not hasty. I have been thinking it over for several months. You say:
Quote:
Is it fair to blame the XBKs for their current condition, is it fair to say it is their problem
I am not blaming the XBKs, I do not really do blame, I do solutions to problems if I can, but is is true in my experience that many of the BKs I met had severe mental problems well before the time that they became BKs. You say:
Quote:
There was another study where a teacher would tell the class that the children were of a particular intelligence given their eye color.
Yes I remember that study. I think it was a proof of how easy it is to indoctrinate children into fascist attitudes. It was quite horrible. Also the study where people were told to administer electric shocks to other people. Do you know about that one? I will look into the other studies you mention. Please note that I am not letting the BK institution off lightly, just pointing out that many BKs I met were depressed etc before ever they became BKs. I think any organisation should have care for those who have difficulties, even when they leave the institution. At the moment it seems to be up to people like us to provide that support as best we can. Best Regards, Sam
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: generalisation |
Tete, Looking back at my post I see that I have not generalised as much as you seem to see. I have not said all BKs have problems, I have said MOST BKs I have met had problems. I have not said the stress is always before entering gyan I have said it CAN be so. Believe me, I am trying to help here. If I make a mistake then it is a genuine mistake, and I mean the information to be for the best interests of people reading my posts. The information I relay in this post comes from my own personal experiences of living with and conversing with BKs and listening to their life stories. The idea does not of course apply to every BK, but is is real experience that I have had and, from where I stand, it looks to be very prevalent indeed. Sam
primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: on the money! |
Hi Sam and Tete - you are both absolutely right and I really respect both of your well thought out opinions on this matter. The thing that struck me was, if you take the process Tete describes - of deconstruction and indoctrination - and then apply it to a person who has psychological issues, we really have a worse case scenario developing. And I relate to the matter Sam raised of how the real issues someone should be dealing with are subordinated to the belief system until they crack and fall out of gyan. They then find themselves having to deal with the real issue, something that has been repressed for years, growing like an emotional cancer, waiting for its time. Grief! As with my ADHD - I had taken gyan as an explanation for my ADHD. I didn't realise that was what I had done - I really thought I had the solution, and so went about vigorously trying to applying it. (This is what makes Raja Yoga so dangerous - this is a recipe for impending trauma). Of course it wasn't the right solution at all, and so when I left gyan my ADHD emerged from the dungeon it had been consigned to and completely spun me out. Without mariadas and shrimat I had no structure. Without the philosophy, I didn't have any explanation at all for either myself or the world, or even life. It was like being 10 all over again (on LSD)! So I agree with both of you. I will add, that for a westerner to engage fully in the Bk's, to really take it on and be intense about it, there is a strong possibility that they have something going on. Like ADHD, or OCD or whatever else I don't know about. It takes a degree of obsessiveness to really live the Bk life 'accurately', especially for any period of time. The Bk's that I recognise as being ADHD have all been in gyan for a long time and are fundumentalist about it for sure. This includes some of our best known senior bro's and sis's.
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: Re: on the money! |
Primal.logic wrote - I had taken gyan as an explanation for my ADHD. That is what I am trying to say. thank you for putting it into a nut shell.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
Sam wrote:
will look into the other studies you mention. Please note that I am not letting the BK institution off lightly, just pointing out that many BKs I met were depressed etc before ever they became BKs. I think any organisation should have care for those who have difficulties, even when they leave the institution. At the moment it seems to be up to people like us to provide that support as best we can.
^^Yeah that was definately me. Probably why I was told not to come back after I made the brainwashing remark. I agree with you that SOME BKs do indeed have "
Sam wrote:
personal problems have been put on hold while they have been in gyan. They do not work on themselves in a positive way while in gyan, quite the reverse in fact. When they leave gyan all these problems come to the front again and they have to deal with them. Gyan has been a sort of “security blanket” for them during their time as BKs. What I have seen is that the post traumatic stress syndrome we see in people leaving gyan can come from stress and trauma that happened BEFORE they went into gyan and was made worse or at best kept stable while they were in gyan.
i know i did... The fact that you are actively discouraged to think at all about anything viewed as "negative" lest it "compromise your stage" means that for those who do have previously unresolved psychological problems, you learn not to address any underlying issues for fear of "losing Baba" and consequently, all that that 'fall from grace' entails Leading to more guilt for going against gyan if you don't keep those thoughts constantly in check, in other words. I certainly couldn't live with that stress, personally. And since its all your own karma (read=fault) there can be complete abrogation of all responsibility by the organisation
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Let the skeletons out of the closet... |
zhukov wrote:
The fact that you are actively discouraged to think at all about anything viewed as "negative" lest it "compromise your stage" means that for those who do have previously unresolved psychological problems, you learn not to address any underlying issues for fear of "losing Baba" and consequently, all that that 'fall from grace' entails Leading to more guilt for going against gyan if you don't keep those thoughts constantly in check
I agree that the BK approach of dealing with problem issues by containing or ignoring them is dangerous and damaging. Raja yoga, and the methods of thinking and self analysis taught by the BKs can release, over time, the inner demons which we have previously supressed within and ignored - the demons are released from their cages and they should then be faced and recognised and conquered. The BK approach tends to be to simply push them back in their cages and re-lock the doors with a new stronger lock of dogma... When we leave the BKs, and start to ditch the dogma, (or even if remaining in the BKs and having a "bad day"!) the locks are weakened and the demons start breaking out of their cages again.. As you indicated, zhukov, in another post, we should be "witnessing" our own weaknesses - getting to know them as detached observers - only then can we face them and deal with them (ie "finish" them). If we don't face them fair and square, with the full knowledge and understanding of what we are dealing with, which comes from observation, then we cannot conquer the weaknesses - they will remain bundled up inside us awaiting a future opportunity to burst out and surprise us....
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: Thanks Admin!!! |
Sam and Joel, It would appear that our ever wise Admin has listened to us and our needs once again:XBKchat Index and External Resources List Joel,
Quote:
Perhaps we could put our heads/fingers together and create a list of resources for recovering ex-BKs: books, web resources on cults/depression/suicide, perhaps a collection of personal stories from this forum, perhaps a subset of 'classic posts' and selected others, that are particularly revealing of the kinds of conflicts involved in leaving BKs.
I will start going through my list of sites and get to work. Sam your expressed need brought about a good service. Kudos to you Sam and Joel. Regards, Tete
primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: warm and fuzzy |
Firstly, let me say that I am more than okay about being 'ADHD'. I have never seen it as a disorder. It is estimated that more than 1 in 10 people are. But they don't know it. They only know that they see the world differently to everyone else. And, if they are lucky enough to meet other ADHD people they realise that they share a similar map. A friend of mine was telling me that when he was still living at home his sister gave him a card with a picture of an alien on it with his name on it. This represents a lot of things - one, how much 'normal' people resent difference, how antgonistic the world is to people who are ADHD or different in other ways, and how much one feels like an alien as a result! ADHD is a difference in conciousness, not a disorder. The problem is in the disordering effect of the collective contempt of difference. This difference is nothing more than a difference in maps, it has nothing to do with diability. As Sociology puts it so nicely - 'reality is a social construction'. Reality is NOT a fundumental truth. The majority of people have constructed a collective reality, a collective map of life. ADHD has a (slightly) different map. For me, this is the essence of the conflict. And because a majority exists, they can declare themselves 'normal' and everything else 'not normal' and therefore wrong, or disordered. So what is 'normal'? It is nothing more than 'typical'. So I am not typical. For that I am grateful. ADHD people, as has been mentioned in this thread, are of above average intelligence, creative, original and lateral thinkers. And we are smart enough to argue against the dominance of a majority who are collectively as dumb as sheep. (my apologies if you are 'normal' - no offence intended). Sheep, lead by media and marketing into collective consumer behaviours, dominated by government and corporations, and blind to the whole process. Bleeting their way through life, running on the endless cycle of the treadmill they were vortexted into by their own unquestioning, unthinking typicality. So much for being 'normal'. I amy sound a little jaded, but hey, I am pretty sick of having to tolerate the imposition of their map over mine. And I find anyone who is switched onto ADHD feels the same. When I was 'diagnosed' I looked around and realised that my small circle of friends were all ADHD. Unconciously we had been drawn together by the similarity of our maps. Since then I have made something of a mission out of helping others who are ADHD but don't know it. To help them understand it a to create a justifiably positive attitude towards it. Some are very open and find freedom in knowing and acknowledging their difference and focussing on the gifts that come with that difference. Others resist because they have been diagnosed ADHD before and deeply resent being told that there is something wrong with their brain and themselves. Well, there is nothing wrong with being different, especially when ADHD brings such interesting and creative abilities. The most signifiant disappointment in my life is that the potential I have has been squandered trying to survive in society - because their map says that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and ones life gets wasted trying to establish ones own value. I think this is why I embraced gyan so actively - I gained value, I was no longer an alien and I had a purpose and a destiny. I achieved my high function state and then went and established significant service, doing new things that became standards for the organisation. I was on a roll, busy, busy busy, achieving and achieving. Sound familiar - many have noticed how frenetic the BK life of service can be. Well, my excuse is that I am hyperctive by nature. As for our beloved seniors - well I can say with certainty that many of our seniors are too - they created the benchmark of 'busy'. This is the first sign that many of them are ADHD too. Gyan is a honeypot for ADHD. I know all of our seniors intimately. I also have a clear understanding of the ADHD profile. I have no doubt that they are ADHD. Which is why those who are normal have such trouble keeping up or just staying with the program. A simple example is in the translation of the murli. ADHD people have a tendency to be black and white thinkers, 'absolutists'. We tend to be 'all or nothing'. This features strongly in the translation of the murli (and we all know who is ultimately responsible for the english translation so I won't mention any names) - for example Baba says 'children, you must become pure'. The english word pure is actually 3 different words in Hindi - the one westerners most identify with is 'satopradhan'. This is the absolute state of purity that we all aspire to. So every morning in murli class westerners stress about becoming absolutely pure. Struggle and strain. However the word that translates to 'pure' in the murli comes from the hindi word 'pavitra'. This means to be pure in the sense of following mariadas, especially celibacy. And actually we were doing that. So instead of having the satisfaction of doing what Baba was asking ie: following mariadas, we were stuck with the stress of not being satopradhan, or completely (absolutely) pure. This is what you get when someone, who is clueless about their own ADHD, translates the murli (and I am not refering to Alka or whoever does it these days, they were all instructed by one of our most known seniors). Anyway, I am out of time, but more later. Thanks for your interest.
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