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John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: Shivas part outside of the Confluence age |
Does Shiva play a part outside the Confluence age? If he returns to Paramdham, then is it not that the mind and Intellect are merged there for souls. Does this mean unconscious? If that is the case how can he play any part outside the confluence age, even a subtle part.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: SoBig Shiva and the human computers |
John wrote:
Does Shiva play a part outside the Confluence age? If he returns to Paramdham, then is it not that the mind and Intellect are merged there for souls. Does this mean unconscious? If that is the case how can he play any part outside the confluence age, even a subtle part.
It is interesting for me that you consider yourself " out " but yet are still wrestling with the issues you had, or someone would have, if they were " in ". According to the Murlis, he does not and cannot which rubbishes the experience of all other religions and religious people for all known history. Either, if we could know, would we then not be greater than this " God "; or, how can you continue to believe what the told you. Especially considering how they and their knowledge not comdemn you. For you, my position is different from your or recent " Common Sense's ". I accept that I was heavily indoctrinated, that I was encouraged to indoctrinate myself. That, literally, my mind became no longer my own and that, a) I did and could not know where this indoctrination came from or was going to, and b) it obstructed me from operating and engage in the immediate practical world I am involved with. For me, the Brahma Kumaris religion was like a virus in my computer than then downloaded a whole load of new software and installed it without my being aware of it, that set me up to be used and was using my facilities for its purpose. Primarily, this was to infect and download to other human computers which in return were encouraged to do the same. In other words, " SoBig Shiva ". For those of you that remember the famous virus attacks. Similarly, for those that understand the nature of computer viruses, it seemed that who SoBig Shiva programmers want to establish a " clone army " of zombies in order to peform their " Denial of Service " attacks. This is how the Microsoft Windows computer virus world work; one computer infects 10,000 computers which are then controlled by the elite hackers and can be turned on and off at will and directed at other important server computers in order to crash them, bring them down or put them out of business. You can see how closely the metaphor works for the B.K.s So closely that I half expect this post to appear in a morning class somewhere soon; " Goldy Virus, Ki Jay .. ! " Now, for me, the job ex-B.K. is to go through the source code of my soul /brain's operating system and unpick and delete all the dodgy programming. This is and has been really tough to do because, a ) it is the active operating system for my life; and b ) there are no book, teachers or guides to help you. It is like someone handing you a programmer's computer with a broken infected operating system you do know, in a language you have no idea of - and then having to learn how to fix and programme it yourself. This was especially tough back in the early days when only a few Westerners had taken a mouthful of Gyan and then bailed out and all there was were materalistic non-Gyanis and Cult Bashers. It must still be tough for those that are isolated from others. How the hell does anyone know which it is right, wrong, stays in, gets deleted, how or if you are still being controlled or played around with. On top of the natural reactions of " failing ", rejection, group condemnation, loss of community when you had had to give up all other community to be accepted, or being " banished "; where could you go for help? Other religions just wanted you to let them download their software into your brainbox, you were beyond psychology or psychotherapy. How / where else was there to live? Everything before and outside of B.K. life was wrong, evil, corrupt etc. It strikes me that if you are still " in " mentally and yet physically " out ", you are going to screw yourself up badly, make yourself unhappy and end up very alone. If you need B.K. life to hang on, go make your confessions to the senior sisters, do a little menial non-public service on a regular basis to make amends and just become one of the little quiet people that sit at the back of classes. Just be satisfied with that life and hop it pays off as you have been promised. If your intuition has booted you out and is rejecting the B.K. installation wizard, delete a few of those " Godly files " and re-write your own operating system. Living in a halfway house is going to badly fragment your disk and that causes a loss in performance and nasty crashes.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:46 am Post subject: |
Hi ex London Thanks for the advice:) I will take it on board what you say, but for now I am quite happy. Yes there are still a few things BKs teach that I would like a clearer answer to, I just feel that I wouldn't get a straight answer from them(BKs) so why bother. Also maybe someone on here has an insight which I'm not aware of. Do I understand you came into gyan quite young? I do feel your anger and frustration in your posts and wish you well with your deprogramming. At the moment I don't see myself returning to BK centres. I want to sort out the bits I do and don't believe, returning to BK life seems like a step backwards.
double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden |
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
Hi ex-london! You wrote:
Quote:
For me, the Brahma Kumaris religion was like a virus in my computer than then downloaded a whole load of new software and installed it without my being aware of it, that set me up to be used and was using my facilities for its purpose. Primarily, this was to infect and download to other human computers, which in return were encouraged to do the same.
You just described a brain-washing process... It's so obvious looking now from an outside point of view! Hi John! You wrote:
Quote:
Yes there are still a few things BKs teach that I would like a clearer answer to
As long as you see BK "knowledge" as a true knowledge you will always search answers to these kind of questions, and always without finding a clear answer. Why do you think BK's would not give any straight answer? Because there is none but blind faith. In the other hand, I can say for myself that it took me several years after going out from gyan to realize that all that fairy tale was b**l sh**t. The thing is that from the begining I wanted to live and experience the spiritual fairy tale, and therefore was not hard to just buy it plain... As I said it took me lots of time to start thinking in other ways and adapt to normal world again without chocking others... I do not regret the time I was in BK, but I feel a little bit sad about letting it rule my life even after I left. The advice ex-london was giving you John it's a very good one. Is better to decide for one of the worlds and stand for it otherwise you will just feel splited. _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
double_light Thanks for your guidance, but actually I didn't ask for any. Why you propose to know what is good for me I don't know. Can we not be mature and agree that we disagree. I don't think all the gyan is b*** s*** as you say. If I can respect your wish to reject gyan, can you not respect mine not too? As much as there is peer pressure in BK life is there not any developing in this forum? Are not a lot of people on here saying, they didn't like that they couldn't ask questions? What about the topic 'When did we stop questioning'
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
double_light wrote:
The thing is that from the begining I wanted to live and experience the spiritual fairy tale, and therefore was not hard to just buy it ...
Thanks for that. I think that you just put your finger on one of the major hooks that traps us. Especially coming from the West where we have no real experience of " spiritual life ", satsang or guru. It is our own illusion of the romance of something exotic that allows us to be seduced and trapped.
John wrote:
I don't think all the gyan is b*** s*** as you say. ... Are not a lot of people on here saying, they didn't like that they couldn't ask questions? What about the topic 'When did we stop questioning'
Not all " gyan " knowledge is " B.K. Gyan " [ tm ], they have just requistioned or usurped it, repackaged and resold it. Truth is universal and stands by itself. I think the problem with your posts is that there is a difference between " asking questions " and " questioning ". Questioning as in doubt and deny. Most of us here - and indeed what it seems the forum was intended for - are questioning what the B.K. experience was, did to us and trying to put a life back together either for ourselves, family or partners. Not romance around in that illusion. Your questions would be better put on a BK forum because you seem to be asking questions to deepen your faith in B.K. and their so called " understanding " - which really just means " conformity to their thought programming ". Really you are B.K. and not ex-BK and so expect some dissonance if you are posting B.K. questions on an ex-B.K. forum. There can be no answer to the questions you ask because they are based on a series of theories and assumptions that you seem to accept without questioning, for which there can be no proof and for which there is really no practical benefit. You can ask, " what does the Murli say about this ... " because that is the Shrimat, if you ask ex-B.K. or even B.K.s - by there religion - all you will get is manmat which they define as useless or even damaging opinion. But then why not asking it to the B.K.s and seniors? it is their business. If they don't or can't answer your questions satisfactorily - then start the questioning. Friend, the lore is largely just " mental plugs " to stop you thinking much of it made up on the hoof - then enshrined as an institutional " truth " - to stop the mind from delving into the truth of it all. And especially to stop students from questioning the authority of the teachers and institution.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: Why are we here? |
John, How old are you now and how old were you when entered the BK life? EB was practically still a teenager when he entered the BK life and as a result missed out on many things that young people his age did. I will some times ask if he remembers a song or a singer, a book or a movie and he doesn't. That some times leaves me sad. I never knew until recently that he played the guitar before BK life; he is now taking it up again. Imagine that you were told you would soon die, maybe in say a year or two. What talk would you have with GOD and what would you want to do? How would you want to spend your time? Would you spend time with your family (biological one), contemplate, pray or would you wait to die accepting your fate. Are these not some of the basic questions in life, “Why am I here, what is my purpose, and how do I fit into the larger picture of the universe?” Please don’t feel we are ridiculing you or your beliefs. I had many a discourse over this very topic with EB and realized how offended he felt. I suppose my connection here is the realization of being a defacto post post cult associate (for lack of a better term). Up until last year I didn’t have the slightest idea of what the BK life was all about. I read Ex-London’s writings as if I was prepping for my first communion interview. The more I learn the more enlightened I become, awareness is a gift. There are some positive things in what these yogi (my term) folks did (practiced)….and I believe if applied correctly some would be beneficial. So, I always keep an open mind. I do think that the organization has some not so nice practices and like eromain (read his full report:http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~eromain/childprotection.htm) says every center is different. There is no chain of command or a place to lodge your complaint and no one to change policy. Some have been banned with no real due process as stated in this forum in a reply to you I believe. So, I am open to learn what you have to offer from your perspective. I am sure the others would offer you a warm smile too. That said….now we must acknowledge why we are here, like the alcoholic visiting the AA meeting, we can not say we are merely visiting (some who have worked out their stuff/issues still visit to offer advice and as seen by other topics they found a cyber community here). We all have had some kind of issue with this organization and are working through it as best we can. Did Socrates not say that enlightenment was a struggle and at times very painful? Rest assured that you are not alone in the struggle. Regards, Tete
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:59 am Post subject: |
Is the forum not for everyone who is XBK? I am understanding towards others who have had difficulties, but is that the monopoly over the forum? I think XBK people can be varied. Different experiences can add together to develop a sum understanding. I don't see how my questioning or questions take away from or are disrespectful to others feelings.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:26 am Post subject: |
Quote:
Not all " gyan " knowledge is " B.K. Gyan "
That is why I said gyan not BK gyan. By gyan I mean knowledge given by Shiva. I don't think BKs portray that accurately. Before you try and put me in a box or give me a label, first understand I am me, John a complete individual, just like you are. I think you're being too black and white..I don't subscribe to the your either in or out. When I am in a box or need labeling I will let you know, if I go back to BK or decide to take up as PBK or any other form of K I will let you know, honestly I will. I don't see any reason to hide it. I think it would be respectful to accept me as I am, just as I will try for others. Being told really you are this or that, makes me the think the person saying it is unable to trust or accept others different from themselves.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:18 am Post subject: |
John wrote:
Before you try and put me in a box or give me a label, first understand I am me, John a complete individual, just like you are. I think you're being too black and white..I don't subscribe to the your either in or out.
well said John - i feel exactly the same about this 'in' or 'out' business and the 'BK' / 'XBK' labelling. My position is that i am neither BK or XBK, or alternatively i am both, and many other things besides.... Throw out the labels: we are all unique individuals.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
Tete asked
Quote:
How old are you now and how old were you when entered the BK life?
I entered BK life in 1984 at the age of 22. Probably from the age of 19, I was looking onto spiritual matters. Eastern philosophies always made the most sense to me, Buddhism, Hindusim, sannyasi so my step into BK was easy. I can understand the difficulties that have been mentioned on this site. I have experienced some of the controlling that goes on. I have also experienced dismissiveness that can come from Senior Sisters, in fact with a flick of the hand. What I read from a murli is not to be dismissive or disrespectful because in the future that person might be dismissive of you. So I don't hold the Senior Sisters in high regard. Yes I think they have worked very hard and I respect that, but I don't give them any status above others or other BKs, besides If the belief is in the Soul and reincarnation, who's to say a new BK can't have greater understanding, because could it not be true that in a previous incarnation they became highly developed in spiritual matters or BK matters.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: Klingon |
John wrote:
Quote:
Not all " gyan " knowledge is " B.K. Gyan "
That is why I said gyan not BK gyan. By gyan I mean knowledge given by Shiva. When I am in a box or need labeling I will let you know ...
Hmmmn ... I'll guess we will have to call you a Klingon then. It seems that " left gyan " but still clinging on to this so-called Shiva thing. I certainly did not mean knowledge given by Shiva. I just meant the kind of objective and temporal truths that somehow seem to be fairly universal amongst human beings. So what is the benefit of speculating on stuff so-called Shiva's role outside of the Confluence Age? The B.K.s were always clear that there was no influence and no part played by it until the Confluence Age. All part of their monopoly on God syndrome. May be you really ought to go back for some more morning and Senior sister classes? How do you feel about going back to the B.K.s community and classes - even as a non-Maryadas follower? I know some that balance being married and doing the full monty and then going back to hang around with the sisters, although I have no idea how they could. Liz Hodgkins was another high profile example of someine that managed to sustain doing their own thing and hanging around now and again - whilst B.K. life is definitely oppositional to doing so.
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
I know some that balance being married and doing the full monty and then going back to hang around with the sisters, although I have no idea how they could.
Why do you not see how anyone could do this? I don't think the BK path is of the renunciate (in the physical sense). The early days of the yagya then people gave up there homes/homelife to become part of the BK movement. That was part of the foundation, but I don't see that advice in Murlis for others. What I recall is 'go about your life, but remember Baba' 'stay in your business but don't forget remembrance'.'All cannot come and stay here(Madhuban) there isn't enough room'.
Quote:
Hmmmn ... I'll guess we will have to call you a Klingon then.
Why use 'we' why not 'I'.
Quote:
It seems that " left gyan " but still clinging on to this so-called Shiva thing.
I never said 'left gyan'...you have your distinctions and understandings they are not the same as mine. I say BKs study gyan, they are not gyan. If you believe in something i.e. Shiva it doesn't feel like clinging on. I have noticed you are very down on anyone who has anything positive to say about gyan, Shiva, BK. I offer a genuine hand of friendship to you on this forum, in that we can both post with freedom of expression and not expect any ridicule or bashing however subtle
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject: |
John wrote:
Quote:
I know some that balance being married and doing the full monty and then going back to hang around with the sisters, although I have no idea how they could.
Why do you not see how anyone could do this?
How can ongoing sexual relationships and Brahmin life go hand in hand?
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
Ok I thought you meant just married. You are right celibacy is still adviced for those in marriage in Brahmin life by the BKs That could be why the householder path is stronger
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