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jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: 5,500,000,000 OR WHATEVER YOU LIKE!! |
This is my first post on this site: Can anyone out there tell me what arguments do the BK's give for the fact that the world population is presently 6.4 billion approx., yet the godorwhateveritis insists that there are only 5.5 billion. Is god weak in the area of mathematics? Bk's should be pushed to the limit on this fundamental issue.
Frank Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
Dear Jim, Right or wrong. In battle, both are lost. What have you found? _________________ ONLY SILENCE REMAINS, when I listen to him, when I listen to the silence
jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: |
For me, one of the core issues in Raja Yoga is population size. If the figure is completely inaccurate then what else is nonsense; is it all a load of baloney? If some investigative journalist was to get hold of this discrepancy he could poke a whole heap of fun at the entire movement. Is this why the Brahma Kumaris is such a secretive organisation, they are unwilling to account for their beliefs? Is this why they are so incognito and reluctant to publish their philosophy and be fully transparent on their history. Is this why the inner circle always keep the wagons in a circle? Why has no effort been made to get God to clarify the population issue? Does the so-called deity behind the organisation not care about confusion and ambiguity? Is the Supreme teacher only a lecturer who refuses to be questioned and demands blind faith? The only response I’ve got to the issue from the representatives within the organisation is a kind of nervous twitchy laughter and an attempt to turn the tables on me by making out that the question is somewhat unworthy of beings seeking spiritual enlightenment, or that there were problems with the translation, or that it’s not possible for humans to accurately measure population – they could be out by many hundreds of millions, or that the figure was never meant to be taken literally – that it’s only a very rough guide, or that it was never stated to be 5.5 billion, that it’s really 5 or 6 or something, or that you ask too many questions, or it doesn’t really matter, or let’s talk about something else, or ‘I’m too busy getting myself perfect to worry about such trivia’.
Guest |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: |
Baba has clarified: The population above the count of 5.5 billions are counted in the list of flies and mosquitoes. They come and drama ends. It’s not much of a part.
Guest |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
Omshanthi! Baba says, "jinki bhuddi visthar me jathi hai o asali gyan ko pakad nahi pathe hai" meaning whose intellect goes in expansion they will not grasp the actual knowledge". Dharani.
jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
This is all a bit disappointing. To a very simple question I’ve only got 3 replies, each of them brief and quite pathetic, from BK’s just spouting the party line. None of them make any attempt to analyse and articulate their beliefs 1. Frank says: stop asking questions, blind faith is what is required. 2. Andrey says: the figure is whatever you want it to be 3. Dharani says: stop thinking, just believe what you are told, again blind faith is essential Blind Faith – believing in something which you know is untrue because it spares you the ordeal of having to think for yourself….looks like the deity is looking for automatons! So much for spinning the cycle!!!!!
Guest |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: |
Dear bhai, You need no faith. You need an answer. You’re open. If this is an issue to you - research and give an answer, would you be able to? You have lost faith, so maybe it’s time to have faith in something different. You would not be able to give an answer to your own question because you don’t seem to be the ocean of knowledge. You say there is no ocean of knowledge but imagination, and people being misleaded. OK it happens all the time. What is the concern? Do you have an alternative for the misleeded ones? At the moment one can seek clarification to his doubts on the intellectual level and I’ll repeat what is the clarification to your issue. This is a count for the souls. The number of human shouls mentioned in the murli is 5.5. At the moment the murli was spoken probably this was the number. Now Baba speaks again. He says souls above this count are not counted in the list of human souls but the list of flies and mosquitoes. They live for a day at the most and they die, that’s why. The point is the Supreme soul has spoken trough Brahma the murli. Many things form the murli are not understood. He comes and again speaks trough the mouth to clarify. I may not give you the correct answer, but he will, according to you. I may not feel your pulse so well but he will to give a medicine accordingly. For instance in the beginning it has been said the soul is like a thumb. The knowledge changes all the time to fulfill our doubts, but it is spoken trough the mouth by the Supreme soul. To me it seems you’re disappointed your question didn’t cause a shock to the audience. Yes, souls are here experienced and knowledgeful. I know Baba has come – it means in a body - practically.
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
Jim, Welcome to the club. However, I am afraid you're blowing against the wind here. None so blind as those who won't (can't?) see. As its been said: "Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise". You are reinventing the wheel though, as this issue was previously raised by gyaniwasi, in his post: "Who is Shiv Baba? A question of faith". Here is the link: http://xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewtopic.php?t=33 In particular, I draw your attention to this paragraph:
Quote:
Now Time, that unfailing teller of truth, has led us to our inevitable fate. Some of us never dreamt that one day we would seriously question the contradictions or shortcomings of the knowledge – the very points we strove to defend! The salient ones have appeared on this site: the length of the cycle; the absence of meaningful accounts of other ancient cultures; the contradictions between gyani time and geological time; the real nature of God if He could be in Madhuban and sustain the Universe at the same time; the contradiction of a population increasing beyond 6 billion souls when we were told in the seven days course that the population of the soul world was 5.5 billion (would God miss the mark by half a billion?). Then there are the increasing questions of interventions in our world by aliens of remarkably superior ability when we were told clearly “you are My only children”.
To my mind, the duration of the cycle is a more fundamental 'anomaly' than the population question, and I am surprised that you didn't raise that instead. The BK position on both of these is, of course, absurd, nonsensical and contrary to the plain truth and common sense. It's easy for some to get hooked on the "God" and "purification" thing - and the "bliss" derived therefrom. What takes real courage however is the ability to stand back and examine things in the cold hard light of rationality and evidence. Many would collapse if they did that, as they have invested their whole being in a lie. So they avoid, evade, obfuscate, trivialise and rationalise. They keep shifting the goalpost - flies and mosquitoes, indeed! This from a "God" who loves and respects all. It's pathetic.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:19 am Post subject: |
Wait until you ask about the dinosaur conundrum if you think that's confusing! LOL
Guest |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
Omshanthi! Here It is not the question of blind faith. Actually speaking it is the question of how much faith and trust that we have on God and on his god’s words. Baba says, “asali gyan tho anth me nikalegi” --- the actual knowledge will emerge at the end. At present Baba gives the rough figure about the population i.e. between 500 karor to 700 karor. As time goes on he will give new clarification. So we have to wait until then. I would like to give a little short note from Mahabharat. When Arjuna saw his family members in front of him in the battle field, he stepped back and felt nervous to fight with his own brothers etc. That time Krishna (as per bhakthi marg he is picturised as the GoD) to show his viswaroop he made everybody unconscious and he showed only to Arjuna. After he visualized that scene then Arjuna’s doubts have been clarified and he fought with his own brothers and won the battle. Like that if you also first concentrate on yourself and on Baba, come in close relation and listen to him then all your questions will be answered. Dharani.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
Hi Jim, Welcome to you and all the new members. I don't get much time to drop by now but the responses to your questions, Jim, remind me of a conclusion I've been forming over time: As human beings we need to believe in a God because that belief is the foundation of our ontological security - our sense of integrity or wholeness of being. In the world of religion, what we seem to believe in are really "constructs" obtained through inspirations, epiphanies, logic or a combination of these. What is powerful is not the content of these constructs we adhere to but our faith in them. Faith is that quality of human experience that can create a suicide bomber as it can - in the words of Christ - "move mountains." It is the vehicle for both liberation and imprisonment. In the early Western days of gyan, when we had our questions, Sister Mohini made the point to us: "Faith" she said, "pertains to the unseen. We cannot see the soul or God, nor can we see the soul world or the entire cycle, yet we are required to have faith in these things." We did, and achieved a good measure of success and stability in our daily lives until the veil of time lifted and revealed discrepancies. We outgrew the concepts and the disillusion upset the even tenor of our lives. For many of us no amount of "blanking it out" could prevent our seeing through the veil of blind faith. We were left with a choice: either deny your inner heart and being or surrender to a "system of belief" that included unquestioning faith in a Supreme Being. Many of us "walked away" and in light of retrospect asked ourselves how did we get there in the first place? Sometime ago - around March/April this year - I had engaged Arjuna in a discussion "about avyakt vanis." I never got straight answers to my direct queries - even though they were referred to his "source" - but what I found most revealing was his opening comment made in his last response to me:
Quote:
Dear Gyaniwasi, Om Shanti. First of all I would like to clarify that in the advance party no one is claiming to be Shivbaba. It is only we children, who, on the basis of the clarification of murlis and avyakta vanis received through Prajapita/Shankar (VDD), believe that it is the incorporeal Supreme Soul Shiva, who is playing the role of father through him.
Unfortunately, that entire post seems to have disappeared at the time of Arjuna's suspension. The point I am making here, though, is that many (not all) of these passionate and irrational defences are made in sincere belief of the "construct" as revealed so honestly by Arjuna. In such a situation, arguments can seem futile so I'd say "speak your 'truth' quietly and clearly" and let time tell - something like the parable of the wheat and tares .... Keep posting buddy, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
Hi Paul! It's been a long time since we touched bases buddy! Good post you inserted on sociology of cults. Jim, it's worth a read. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: |
Andrey: I can only describe your response as garbled and confused, gramatically all over the place, sorry no offence intended. You’re just giving me the BK line. It doesn’t work with those who’ve been in it for years. You’re right. I need an answer. But not just any old answer. And certainly not circuitous reasoning. It’s a bit like what the Christians say: the Bible is the word of God, because it says so in the Bible. 1980 world population 4,000,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000” 1993 world population 5,500,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000” 2005 world population 6,400,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000 plus millions of other quickie souls which are sort of like little bugs that don’t live long which I forgot to mention..oops! In other words the original figure is meaningless…I should have kept my big mouth shut” Try visualise a cartoon with God sitting at his desk, Brahma on the chair in front of him. God is holding his head in his hands saying, ' Tell me one more time EXACTLY what you said to those people??????????????????? If the Knowledge changes all the time, who’s to say that the length of the cycle won’t change as well. Maybe it might now change to 50,000 years or 500,000 years or blah blah blah or……ANYTHING Paul. Thanks for the welcome. Maybe I am blowing against the wind. You’re right: "Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise". The cycle duration bothers me big time and always did but I thought I’d just start with the pop. problem and see what happens. I agree fully with all you said. Zhukov. I thought I’d start with something really straight forward, that doesn’t have to be debated endlessly and that shouldn’t be fuzzy, thanks Dharani. “the actual knowledge will emerge at the end” Does that mean that up to now we haven’t really got the ACTUAL knowledge, just some kind of intro or prologue? Are we just being wound up a bit in preparation for the real thing? “at present Baba gives the rough figure about the population i.e. between 500 karor to 700 karor”……..is he still counting????. As for the little short note from the Mahabharat……I don’t know what any of that stuff means. You can take whatever you like out of it. “Like that if you also first concentrate on yourself and on Baba, come in close relation and listen to him then all your questions will be answered“ What you’re saying here sounds distinctly like blind faith. Stop thinking. Stop analysing. Just get down on that mat and keep your mouth shut. Sorry I done that a long time ago and I’d ain’t doin it again.
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:12 am Post subject: 5.500.000.000 0R WHATEVER |
Jim, I have observed, that in this discussion, there has been no challenge to the 6.4 E9 or 6.4 billion suggested by an institution such as the WHO. If we were to read any scholarly journals on the world population, 6.4 E9 will be regarded as an estimate. As a estimate it will have a +/- error value. The question should be: How close is the absolute value when the errors are accounted for, to the 5.5 E9 documented by the BKs? The BK statistic may be based on a count of human souls, incorporeal or corporeal, who are currently on the Earth. The statistic of the World Population Council is based on estimates of souls in corporeal bodies. There are multiple sources of errors in the estimation of populations. The BKs should specifically state that at a specific time there are 5.5 E9 souls on the Earth, many corporeal and some incorporeal. The [b]statistic of 5.5 E9 souls is distinctly different from 5.5 E9 living humans or 6.4 E 9 living humans. [/b] The issue is the units. The WPC units is living human and that of the BKs is souls. From day 1 as a BK I always used scientific reasoning and decision making as tools to analyze murky BK concepts. The Scientific Method has its limits as a tool for understanding metaphysical phenomena. However, scientific reasoning and decision making is not limited to the physical world. I got into trouble with the BKs for using the tools of the Scientific Method, Scientific Reasoning and Decision Making. If critical thinking is not tolerated then the Light of Knowledge is tainted. Souls who are seekers are unable to use an important part of themselves, especially souls who once lived in Atlantis. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Guest |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
Dear jim bradly bhai, Sorry i was not clear. In fact i also don't understand what is the question, and whether there is a question or just you share your dibelief. If it is so I was just trying to encourage you that /of course you should have a little faith and since you are interseted you definetely do or at least did have faith in something, probably...you are a soul/ you can now seek answer from Baba. He is personaly here. Muralis read in the BK are spoken trough Brahma, many years ago. They are unlimited in meaning and current still far from our comprehension. Now Supreme soul as a Supreme techer teaches. I personally had no problems with the cycle, yes it is quite revolutionary - that i liked. In science i lost faith once i saw scientist trying to make a mouse breath under water. About dinosaurs i have my own explanation i can share if you want. However my point was if you don't have faith in this, then what do you have faith in, at least faith is essential in life so that one lives. What is your hope for the future? How do you see the future of humanity?
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