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Do you lack material ambition?
Yes |
| 83% | [ 10 ]
No |
| 16% | [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 12
Author | Message
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gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: Loss or lack of material ambition |
Hi guys, I haven't been able to drop by lately but it's a pleasant surprise to see some of the new postings, especially those by the latest members like Kyzzie, primal logic, blue wing, Sam, Tomas and even Arjun who I just noticed has joined us again! A warm welcome to you all. [It would be nice too if a few of the early ones like Ifegenia, Isabel and Eromain could drop by sometimes ] Here's something blue wing said in the Visitor's Forum that caught my attention:
Quote:
how many times did we hear: this is the last year to make efforts.....if we are beings that are creating every second of our lives through our thoughts, etc...how and why would one could create a second ahead with these daily remarks? this is living life in the future: golden Age, because even the Confluence Age is really bad!!! Sorry, I didn't mean to be so negative, but I still have difficulties in finding or even chosing a "profesional' life for my earnings or to even have a 'passion' that people talk about it...
Something there resonates with me. Why do I continue to feel a lack of material ambition, even though the world is run on material ambition? I have some notion but I'd like to know if it's a common experience, especially for those of us who have left for over 20 years. Thanks Joel, for 'adjusting the lens' for Common Sense in the Visitor's forum. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
Quote:
Why do I continue to feel a lack of material ambition, even though the world is run on material ambition?
This is an interesting Q that has also been in my mind for actually a long time well before coming to BK. Spirituality is the flipside of Materiality. Or rather the practice of. I think one needs to find one' own energy balance between spiritual (metaphysical energy) and material (physical 5 elements), so that you function best. I'm no expert on this "energy balance/ying yang concepts", but each will pull against another. There are affluent people who worked hard and kind as well as the opposite. I wouldn't say there is a complete lack of material ambition in spiritually inclined people, but the understanding of the fundamental point that we cannot take material gains with us. And it is up to your spiritual belief that (whether) you can also take spiritual gains and how best guide us. Thus what is "happiness". One problem it seems with people coming into any sort of spirituality is that the awakening of the soul has such a pull towards that energy that living in the material world would seem intolerable, and then the time when your "dark night/nights" comes to fight and you are left to find out sorting your imbalances. Mother Teresa advised the monsenior from the Vatican who decided to stay in Calcutta to help her missionary cause at the beginning that the journey ahead was full of danger. Not all BK teachers tell this to their students as it has negative connotations. They should say so, but at the same time reassure that the journey ahead is also full of lovely surprises. With this understood at the beginning of a journey, the soul is made ready and aware. Just as if you were teaching a child. Its easier to look in hindsight. Though XBKs can at times be "spiritual" than BKs since XBKs come to identify their dark moments.
Kyzzie Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Posts: 8 Location: Oxfordshire |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
I can only speak for myself here. My experience is that a sense of spirituality increases the awareness of the duality of worldly life. Duality seeks to divide between good/bad; pure/impure; love/fear and iron/gold. It is polarised in its denial of the entire palette of human existence. Spirituality, for me, integrates and accepts what is rather than live in denial or repugnance of things as they are. Living in Grace accepts the faults in me and the faults in you as not faults, but as part of 'what is'. It is being aware of the sacred of all living beings whether they comform to various constructs of philosophy or not. True spirituality is not designating some people as this, that or the other; it is seeing beyond all those limitations and registering the magnificence of existence. Spirituality is the recognition and embrace of the material world as a part of the whole; not as something to be the entire reality nor something to be denied. Denial of the material, denial of attachment, denial of all these 'things that are' gives them just as much importance as being a part of them. Acceptance of life and of love as it is naturally ascribes less value to either pole. This, I believe, is the natural way to live amongst life as a spiritual being. Not in denial of the material, but not particularly invested in it. _________________ If God wanted me up at 4am, she would not have invented sleep.
tomas Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 9 Location: Bronx, New York |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Loss or lack of material ambition |
gyanniwsi wrote:
Quote:
Something there resonates with me. Why do I continue to feel a lack of material ambition, even though the world is run on material ambition? I have some notion but I'd like to know if it's a common experience, especially for those of us who have left for over 20 years.
hi gyaniwasi, bansy and kyzzie, It hasn't been 20 years since I left the bks however I am very interested in this subject. Unlike many of you guys, I can't comprehend why you wouldn't have any material ambition at all, unless you are totally satisfy with your economical and material situation. In my case, I consider myself to be ambitious because I have goals I want to accomplish, so I could live a more comfortable lifestyle and have the time and resources to explore the contents of the spiritual realm. So why do you guys have no material ambition? is your lifestyle comfortable enough that disconfort isn't a driving force to attain material comforts? Do you have as much time for yourselves as you like and don't have to worry about worldly responsibilities? Because if that is the case, why would be bothered by the fact you have no material ambition? I look foward to hearing from you guys, please help me comprehend this thing.
Kyzzie Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Posts: 8 Location: Oxfordshire |
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: |
Hi Tomas, I think you have raised an interesting point. Maybe I live in an affluent enough situation so that survival is not a primary stress in my daily life. I do not consider myself a wealthy person, but possibly in the grand scheme of worldly standard of living, I am. Sometimes I forget that many people in this world do have to worry where their food or water is coming from every single day. Some people watch their babies starve or die of preventable disease. So, at certain standards of living, material ambition is essential for survival. But I am relating to living in a life that is, thankfully, not so threatened and material ambition represents greed of having always more and more. I do not proclaim to be devoid of material ambition. I simply do not have the desire for it to be my overriding motivation. Some people always wish for more material accumulation regardless of what they have. They live their lives fuelled on this thrill and the promise of that thing that is just out of reach. It is sad to see when this investment in material acquisition dominates to the extent that it becomes an addiction; something never fulfilled or satisfied. An addict, in this case an addict of wealth, will go to any length to procure their next 'fix'. They will lie, steal, cheat and betray even those dear and close to them. You hear it in the words 'But it is business' as an excuse to backstab or commit gross unfairness to their fellow brother or sister. That is a psychopathic state of affairs. Yes, of course I enjoy nice things, good quality food, learning something new or accomplishing a project, but that is not what I mean. For me, spirituality means compassion for humankind. That compassion makes it impossible to try to cheat or enter into the hard-nosed politics required to succeed in modern day business. Lack of material ambition, for me, originates in my heartfelt desire to live in a state of compassion and fairness. That desire does not sit well with a competitive nature. _________________ If God wanted me up at 4am, she would not have invented sleep.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate them. Tomas, you said:
Quote:
It hasn't been 20 years since I left the bks however I am very interested in this subject. Unlike many of you guys, I can't comprehend why you wouldn't have any material ambition at all, unless you are totally satisfy with your economical and material situation. In my case, I consider myself to be ambitious because I have goals I want to accomplish, so I could live a more comfortable lifestyle and have the time and resources to explore the contents of the spiritual realm.
This is why I'm a little perplexed here. I'm now in my 50's and left gyan since I was in my early 30's. I'm not well off, no, I need material ambition to achieve much more for a comfortable life. Perhaps I should state it more accurately by saying I suffer from a sort of malaise or ennuie - which is not the same as plain laziness. This has to do with a lack of consistent , daily motivation to achieve materially. I was wondering whether there's a persistent residual denial of the validity of this world we live in. It is said that some religions teach us to embrace the world while others teach us to deny it in preference for a world to come. BK teachings are rooted in the latter. I'm thinking that perhaps I'm still rooted there Is that possible? Primal Logic. any comments on this? _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: lazy |
I have never had much material or other types of ambition. Before or after the BKs or any kind of spirituality. Some people say I am lazy, others that I am contented, others that I am spiritual. I found the BKs to be actually far too busy and active for my liking. They were always doing and seldom being. So I guess I am a lazy being!
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: lazy |
Sam wrote:
I found the BKs to be actually far too busy and active for my liking. They were always doing and seldom being.
I relate very much to this. When young I was highly motivated for material success (my upbringing), but when I started earning good money easily in my mid 20's I actually got very depressed - suddenly i had all the toys i could i want - a large house, a good car - i looked ahead and projected the rest of my life along the lines it was going and got close to suicidal - it all seemed so pointless. I realised that material "success" did not actually bring me any satisfaction at all, beyond the point where it eliminated worries over food and shelter. I soon quit my high powered job and changed my priorities, going on a spiritual quest (which took me, some 13 years later, to the BKs). I have been self employed ever since and work only part tiime, and I have accumulated nothing of significance in material terms, which makes me poor (materially) by the standards of where I live - and I have never again experienced the lows that my early material success brought me. Having the time to pursue spiritual progress, and time to just relax and enjoy life, is far more important to me than having material things. The question asked in this thread implies that there is something lacking in you if you don't have material ambition, and Gyaniwasi you reiterate this in your last post:
gyaniwasi wrote:
I suffer from a sort of malaise or ennuie - which is not the same as plain laziness. This has to do with a lack of consistent , daily motivation to achieve materially.
This doesn't sound like a "malaise" to me, more a healthy attitude. Material achievement is not important. Having fun and enjoying life - that is important. I think the BK "hell for leather" non-stop hussle-bustle busy-ness approach to life is unhealthy and likely to lead to mental problems, as is the similarly frantic approach adopted in business across the world these days. So Gyaniwasi, relax and appreciate your good fortune!
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
by the standards of where I live
How is "materiality" actually measured ? Rich in the knowledge of life and wisdom far outweighs anything material. But then what and how is "wisdom" measured ? There's no straight answers to this. I'm giving a general answer to all as we are all different here. Basically I would just ask yourself how much do you feel you are worth (measure it quantitavely, qualitively) over a broad range of things - social, emotional, spiritual, material, political, sexual, etc - find a nice balance and move on adjusting to the imbalances as you go. I'm not an expert analyst here but too much of something simply will topple one over. You need a totality of a completeness of yourself to satisfy yourself. Maybe find your dream and go for it, adjusting your dream as you go. For some, the future as prescribed by BKs is a dream. If you're rich and kind to me, that's great. If you're poor and kind to me, that's great too.
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
Quote:
Why do I continue to feel a lack of material ambition,
I do notice there are lots of jobs on the market, some mediocre pay, some highly paid, so many opportunities but untaken. Would it be the job which does not interest ? The people or industry sector that does not interest ? Almost "nothing" interests you....maybe this really is the "attitude of unlimited disinterest"
Quote:
Having the time to pursue spiritual progress, and time to just relax and enjoy life
yes, "time" is one of those funny concepts we have to deal with. Time is money but money cannot buy time, be nice to have loads of both
primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: the balance? |
I am in a similar situation - absolutely no drive to go out and make money and buy stuff. On the other hand, it is not good for me to have too much time on my hands or not have anything to do - I go nuts. However, I have come to believe that the real issue for me has been what I do for money. If how I made money was challenging, stimulating and personally rewarding I would make money. If I have to spend my life doing work that emerges a feeling that I am just wasting my life, regardless of how good the salary is, then I really struggle (as I am). When I was a BK, as a senior 'instrument' with responsibility for many centres and students, I was busy from 3.30 am to late 7 days a week. I didn't have a lokik job, so all my energy went into being a bk and doing 'service'. So I got the challenging, stimulating and rewarding bits right, but of course, no money. So here I am, post bk, broke and doing menial, banal jobs for a crust. It sucks. So therefore I have no material ambition! Which is also really good for my self-esteem! Crap job, no money, no furniture even, and middle aged. Depressing. But I would say it is also a matter of values and the priorities that flow from that. If spirituality is the most important thing, then money/possessions will take second place. But when we hit a point of total imbalance life becomes dysfunctional. Being spiritual doesn't work if ones 'material position' is inadequate. Hidden in our subconscious are sublimal expectations as to what we should have achieved 'by now', both personally and materially. We will feel emotionally compromised if we don't fulfil those expectations.
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
howiemac wrote:
I think the BK "hell for leather" non-stop hussle-bustle busy-ness approach to life is unhealthy and likely to lead to mental problems, as is the similarly frantic approach adopted in business across the world these days.
In both cases^^ if you allow yourself to stop frantically 'doing' and instead try watchful 'being' for a while, all those unresolved "problems" are gonna flood back in sooner or later. Much better to keep yourself emotionally anaethetised with "positive churning" or "endless consumption/profit" and then your hidden conflicts will stay nice and repressed I'm reading a very interesting book right now called "Growth Fetish" about how Western consumer society is constructed in order to encourage mass dissatisfaction - which is of course remedied by more and more spending to fill that empty (spiritual) hole inside. (remember after Sept 11 Bush called upon Americans everywhere to "go shop"? That wasn't just to avoid recession etc but also to help assuage people's fears) This is the usual and only directive we are given as how to cope with unpleasant emotion - distract. Just like BK dogma is also supposed to do. Personally, I've never felt any great urge to acquire lots of money. However, that's probably more a measure of previous depression than any great balance or spiritual achievement on my part
tomas Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 9 Location: Bronx, New York |
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: the balance? |
primal.logic wrote:
Quote:
But when we hit a point of total imbalance life becomes dysfunctional. Being spiritual doesn't work if ones 'material position' is inadequate. Hidden in our subconscious are sublimal expectations as to what we should have achieved 'by now', both personally and materially. We will feel emotionally compromised if we don't fulfil those expectations
hi primal.logic, i want to thank you for making this topic so clear. now i can understand how someone who is unsatified his/her material or economical situation , can, at the same time, have no material ambition. it seems inappropriate or even impossible to follow the bk lifestyle for a long time and not being 100% committed to it. after following the teachings for many years, you are unlikely to develop economically because this philosophy discourages building your fortune here and now, so you can channel all your energies to build your "future heavenly kingdom". although the organization needs money, and obviouly lots it, you're constantly reminded that you must forget about this dirty old world and the iron aged impure matter of this kaliyug. if you follow this principal i don't think you'll make the required efforts to achieve the things necessary to acquire your desired material comforts, unless you're rich before you enter gyan. anything you do for a long time is bound to become a strong habit, and the most difficult thing about changing your habits, is finding a new habit to replace it with which fits your interest. now if your undesired habit is that you have no desire to achieve those unconcious expectations you mentioned, you're in a tricky situation. if you have no desire where will you get the inspiration to change from?. the only thing i can think of is embracing the emotions you have for so long tried to get rid off like desperation. desperation can be a driving force that gives you the energy to achieve and gain. you have to have a desire if you want to achieve anything. anyways my fellow xbk it is an inmense pleasure to communicate with y'all and i look foward towards having more interactions with every single one of you, so we can exchange ideas and points of view. good bye and God bless _________________ With you, I learn and grow
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
tomas wrote:
the only thing i can think of is embracing the emotions you have for so long tried to get rid off like desperation. desperation can be a driving force that gives you the energy to achieve and gain. you have to have a desire if you want to achieve anything.
I think you've really hit the nail on the head here, tomas You have to face unpleasant emotions and let them pass thru without identifying with them (ie taking them 'to heart') for you to be rid of them. and of course, its pain that is the agent that prompts you to change, as you helpfully pointed out
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
On "material ambition" I guess I am midway on the scale. By that, I mean that I have no strong urge to acquire a large house, luxury car etc. My upbringing was somewhat privileged and I never really had to worry about material things. However, when I became an adult and took on my own family responsibilities, I acquired a healthy respect for money. I mean, ordinary life brings that home to you. There are constant expenses - small, medium and sometimes large - and the bills don't stop coming. So one becomes conscious of the bank balance, the next paycheck etc. At this point in my life, I have more than the basics, minimal debt and am 'comfortable'. I realise that we live in a material world and nothing much happens without money. At the same time, I try not to get fixated on it. It should not be the be all and end all of my existence. Like Howie, I value free time at least as much - probably more - than money. This will be the third year that I am voluntarily taking a pay cut so that I can have more time off. And I have no regrets about that. I love having the time for myself, to do the things I really want do - to go places, to read, surf, write, listen to music, meet a friend for lunch etc. Life is short and nothing is guaranteed, not even tomorrow. The other thing is that we really don't need as much as we think we do. As someone said, even the millionaire can only have three meals a day. And I can have three meals a day too. I think that even in the 'materialsitic West' there is a recognition of this. It's interesting to note that the ads for a popular North American lottery say "Imagine the freedom". Note, the ads don't say "Imagine the big house and fancy car you can buy with all this money" Those things only do so much for people. The ad executives know that what many people are yearning for is freedom. The freedom to get off of the constant threadmill of the daily grind, the freedom to travel, the freedom to kick back and relax - or simply to do nothing, if that is what you feel like and need. Hey! is this jiwan mukti? (Of course, I don't recommend lotteries - the odds are just way too high and you'll just waste your money buying tickets, build up false hope and get it dashed). The other thing is age. As we get older, we can sense or see the exit point at the other end of the tunnel. More people we know die or get seriously ill. We attend more funerals. Two months ago, a relative's husband had a serious stroke, an aneurism really. The guy is an accountant, slim and only 52 years young. Now, he can't even speak. And so we realise that this life is fleeting and transient. So why make 'stuff' or 'bling' a big thing? It may be trite to say but its still true, "You don't take it with you." We come to understand and value good relationships and experiences more than things. Of course, money can be a facilitator of those positive relationships and experiences. You need dough to travel, to have more time off etc. My 'weakly felt' goal is to have enough that I can have the freedom to be myself. I don't have that pile yet, but I am content with what I have....and I take it one day at a time.
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