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Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: Celibacy...pros and cons |
I am opening up this topic in a general way...not necessarily confined to the BK context only. What are your thoughts on celibacy as an adult choice / lifestyle? What are the pros and cons, as you see it? For now, I'll hold off on giving my own opinion - in case it influences the views expressed. However, I will come back later and give my two cents. Now over to you - what do you see as the benefits (if any) and the downside (if any) of being celibate? Personal experiences welcome.
Guest |
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
I’m a man. From my point of view indulging in sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation is senseless. It is just a loss.
Guest |
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:12 am Post subject: |
Omshanti. Keeping aside my bk/pbk knowledge, my experience with celibacy (whenever I have practised it in a true sense) has given me the following benefits: 1. Control over health/body. 2. Good relationship with family and society. 3. Better concentration and efficiency at workplace. 4. Peace of mind. 5. A sense of satisfaction. 6. Better control over thoughts. 7. Easier remembrance of God (I have put this item at the last number since many souls won't be interested in the relation between purity and God). With regards, Arjuna
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
Andrey wrote:
I’m a man. From my point of view indulging in sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation is senseless. It is just a loss.
I just looked up ‘celibacy’ in dictionary.com: 1. Abstinence from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows. 2. The condition of being unmarried. I haven’t heard of # 2 before – I presume Atma is talking about # 1. Re Andrey’s comment above, celibacy # 1 doesn’t have any regard to what the aim is. In terms of BKWSU, of course some BK’s have already had children before they join, but has anyone ever heard of a BK becoming a parent while being and remaining a BK? I mean in the lokik world, the announcement of pregnancy is usually greeted by ‘congratulations’ but in BKWSU, perhaps not. People are of course different so celibacy comes easier to some than to others. There is a physiological (hormonal) aspect and some people have a higher sex drive than others – perhaps it can be said that there is a karmic aspect underlying this – ie that a body conscious (non spiritual) person will be more interested in sex than a spiritually inclined person. Anyway I read somewhere that many people who take up the BK lifestyle of celibacy would already have a low interest in sex ie they would find it quite easy. I think it’s easy to make a case for celibacy outside marriage, but it’s less easy to say that it’s wrong to have children. Without sex, none of us, including Dada Lekhraj, would get to be here. Reproduction by the power of yoga (ie without sex) is really an extraordinary idea. I haven’t heard of this belief outside of BKWSU.
Guest |
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
Om shanti Bhai! The case of having children is an interesting one. It is up to the soul but, if one understands accounts, then one might understand that the child is one of the larger accounts that one could have. The parents become first class slaves to the the child, thru taking care of it and financing their life for many years. Take Care.
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: celibacy |
I also think that many, both XBK and lokik regard sex as something physical only. Because of that view, rather than the more appropriate view that it should only occur within a committed relationship, it can spell the end of the relationship rather than take one to a deeper commitment. _________________ Catlady
Guest |
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:45 am Post subject: |
Omshanti. Sex can only give temporary pleasure through the meeting of mortal bodies; that too is attached with a string of fear (fear of anyone looking at you, or the fear of pregnancy, the fear of diseases like AIDS, the fear of police, the fear of breaking other relationships etc. etc.). As Catlady has pointed out, joy can be derived only out of committed relationship, whether it is with human beings or with God. Committed relationship means sacrificing personal pleasures and comforts for the sake of your partner, understanding each others feelings, accepting the shortcomings of each other and moulding yourself accordingly and trying to derive the maximum joy out of the relationship. With regards, Arjuna
catlady Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 26 Location: USA |
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
Arjuna, I agree that true joy and love is found only when there is a true commitment to the other. Catlady _________________ Catlady
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: Celibacy Pros and Cons |
Arjuna Bhai. I strongly disagree with your point of view that sex only yields temporary benefits. Talk to folks who are experts in the Tao of Love and Love [b]Making [/b]or those who practice tantric sex. The data indicate that those who practice sex the Taoist way can live long, healthy and high quality lives, 90 yrs. 95 yrs, 100 years. Just go to China and Japan and talk to the senior citizens about love and love making. Read for example the Tao of Love and Sex by Jholan Chang. Brahmacharya has a place in the life of every young man and woman, I feel. Brahmacharya can be a great buffer for the energy released during the unleashing of the Kundali Shakti. Sex in which the male is satisfied and the female is not satisfied, physically and metaphysically, can be very damaging to the male partner than it is to the lady. A male, for example, may climax before his female partner, explode and expel his male essence and feel temporarily satisfied. However, it is a short term high. He immediately feels washed out and wants to sleep. On a long term basis, Oriental medicine has documented that such selfish acts of love making by males if done on a regular basis can significantly shorten the life span and quality of life of the male. Most men, especially in the West, reduce love making to an act of two to five minutes. In such ultra short acts, they shorten their life spans and induce a sense of stress and dis content in a female partner, who may just look for another mate. A male who controls or masters the art of limiting the release of his vital essence during intercourse can have a long life span, spiritual growth to his max and a harmonious relationship with his female partner(s). You all may be saying, "AH HA, that's how he does it!" I practice the Tao of Love and Love Making. In terms of love and love making, we can have our cakes and eat them too......with 3 rd , 4 th and even 5th helpings _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
Good post Errol! I can see you're in that "euphoric post-gyan awe" The problem with the BK & PBK point of view is that they equate love with lust. The closest I've seen of a "BK" understanding of the distinction is in a post made by bkry a couple months ago when she did a clinical description of the psycho-sexual process of foreplay in an attempt to describe how procreation can proceed in the GA. There is, definitely, a difference between Love and Lust and "worldly people" (from a BK point of view) understand this very well. They have that capacity to experience the quality of response described by bkry. Hanuman's post alludes to a different category of love-making from Indian and Chinese traditions. BK teachings have simply reduced all this to mere lust without the benefit of experience. Uddhava remarked:
Quote:
Reproduction by the power of yoga (ie without sex) is really an extraordinary idea. I haven’t heard of this belief outside of BKWSU.
Actually, I have seen the same kind of meditative intercourse described in the teachings of a Bulgarian mystic named Omram Mikhael Aivanhof - and his teachings pre-dated the entry of RY to the West - leading one to assume that such ideas may not be strange in other paths. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: Celibacy Pros and Cons |
Gyaniwasi, Thank you very much. For the male and an active sex life or asexual life, the number one issue is health and longevity. A person practicing the Tao of love and love-making can have far more benefits than the list in this post. Some of these are great physical and psychological health, and longevity. At a molecular biology level, life extension scientists have found that telomeres part of the genetic material are highly reliable indicators of longevity. A stressful life or exposure to ecxessive environmental toxins can reduce the length of the telomeres and reduce the life span of the cells in the body and over all life span on the person. Dr. Gary Null's book, Power Aging, is filled with helpful reliable data on reducing the effects of aging for young and older adults. While good meditation does wanders for an aging brain and many others parts of the body, due to a neuro-endocrine influence, a loveless relationship with a female by a male can have many ill effects on the male than the female partner. Both parties are affected. However, it usually the male that suffers the most. Masters & Johnson's studies have assisted many western couples to have love making practices more consistent with the Tao of Love Making. There is a need, however, for more couples to become aware of healthy loving relationships incorporating a high quality spiritual life. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: |
Most interesting and helpful Hanuman! I notice elsewhere that you and Bkry are 'on the same page' (in the BK forum on bridging the gap between BKs & XBKs). I wonder whether she'd care to add her two bits here . You're a strange cat on this site though ... running with the hares and the hounds perhaps ....? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: Celibacy pros and Con |
Gyanwasi, I am tickled I would add strange cat as in LION! Only lions, tigers and leopards can run with the hares and hounds! These past several days have brought me many sobering experiences with respect to Katrina and NOLA. A bit of laughter is always great in lifting the spirits. I'd love to read BKry's posts on the topic. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
Well, Celibacy pros and Con is a good discussion. I felt the beneficies of celibacy when I was in BK. But for me there is no sense in celibacy if you are not in a religious group. Anyway, I don´t think sex with love is bad for spirituality. Many vicars and priests (protestant churches, for example) have family... Guest write:
Quote:
then one might understand that the child is one of the larger accounts that one could have. The parents become first class slaves to the the child, thru taking care of it and financing their life for many years
My God! What´s that! This person has no idea how great is the experience to take care a son. The experience to be a mother was great for me. I felt useful, important, and divine. I could create a life inside of me and fed a baby throught my own body (milk). So, this is bad? Of course that parents must take care your children (God is the father, no?). I don´t feel this experience like slavery. Of course I have a karmic account with my son, but the relashionships are karmic accounts. We can learn, grow up and feel love and true joy throught this karmic account. I remember when I was in Gyan, I met a pregnant friend. I think "this world will be destroyed. This is fruit of lust". Of course I was just 18 years old, a dumb girl. But I think that brahmins used to think about sex and children like the worst think to justify their option. There is no problem with celibacy. And there is no problem with sex too (I´m trying to overcome the feeling that sex is lust, is evil, is bad yet ).
bansy Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 84 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
But for me there is no sense in celibacy if you are not in a religious group.
I agree. Dada Lekraj had children during his worldly life, he was religious before he become Brahma Baba. Buddha was not celibate (don't quote me on this, what I have read somewhere) before he left his princely palaces and found nirvana. Jesus....well...he's is now being linked to Mary Magdalene debate. Gandhi was not celibate at first. Uddhava quoted:
Quote:
has anyone ever heard of a BK becoming a parent while being and remaining a BK?
Yes, there are BKs who have had children after they become BKs and remaining....some often appear in BK youth retreats. I guess if you are into obtaining 100% true spiritual freedom, then you can't do anything physical, and thus sex is taboo. The BK idea is that if you can master your senses, then you are the world sovereign, and as BKs are to become angels so surely angels don't have sex. Just the power of yoga will do. I read somewhere the sage who wrote the Gita was born from the body of a fish........ If you have sex when as a BK...just don't tell any other BK....God knows anyway. There is a form you have to fill to apply to go to Mt Abu. One of the parts is on celibacy. (Another, unrelated here, is how many times you were angry in the current year.......well rather odd since every BK would have had been angry at some stage, if not in gross form, but in subtle ways, since no BK (other than BB) is yet perfect).
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