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ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: Women told to have abortions by senior BK sisters. |
Really this should go in the " Crazy Things That BK Tell You " thread but I think that it is too serious a matter to be considered entertainment. I can honest swear my witness to the fact that women were - and perhaps are still - told, encouraged, even cajoled to have abortions by the Brahma Kumari senior sisters. And in the case I am thinking about, by a senior sister that left behind her own child / children to join Gyan. [ Can anyone correct me, am I right to say that Sudesh was one of the only few senior sisters to have a child and left it behind when she joined the BKs? Note : This apsect need corroborating but the rest is factual ] I knew a young woman that joined the BKs who was still in a relationship. I think that there was some overlap between her involvement in the Brahma Kumaris and her old relationship. She had a deep love or commitment to the BK community. How or when ever it was discovered that she was pregnant and advice was taken from the senior sisters in London. This must mean Janki and Sudesh as Jayanti was largely a translator at this time. The emphatic advice she was given was to abort the child. As I understand it, the reasoning was because, a) the world was going to end soon so to have a child would be a tremendous pull on the intellect distracting her from meditiation on God - not just for her but others - and doing service by which she would find her and others salvation; [ The world did not end within the timeframe they preached ] b) as the soul did not enter the body of the foetus until the third month, so have an abortion was no big deal, i.e. there was no living thing in there to kill. it was not " service " to have a child. Having a child was not " good service " for which the juniors are rewarded by the seniors [ mostly it must be said with little sweeties ]. Now, I know this to be true and I know that the two reason are stock in trade BK philosophies. Orthodox BKs would have to agree with these grounds as they were given as unquestionable " Shrimat ". • Does anyone know of any other similar cases? Obviously, there are many case where women are told to leave husbands boyfriends - and a few nasty backlashes that went along with that afterwards - but I think this is a good indicator of where perhaps the institution strayed quite far over the line. In this case, the woman went ahead and had the child. Who am I to say what is right and wrong?
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: |
Omshanthi There is one saying in ancient scriptures of India, One man has seen living soul without body, so this news passed to second man and he reported that to third man that first man has seen evil, and third man was hearing curiously. However main point here is whoever has seen, told and listened are too souls in real, but possess the body to see, tell and hear. One thing I think ex-london that when anyone think negative at something , we find, hear and say the samething, not analysing the reality of what happened. If you are brave and were BK before why can't you pose your questions directly yourself to the senior sisters of BK. Well I know the senior sisters to whom you are saying about have positive auro (vibrations) around them, which I see rarely in BKs and never in outside. thanks with love satish
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: Senior sister's positive auros [ was "Women told to Abo |
satish wrote:
There is one saying in ancient scriptures of India, One man has seen living soul without body ... [ clip ] ... If you are brave and were BK before why can't you pose your questions directly yourself to the senior sisters of BK. Well I know the senior sisters to whom you are saying about have positive auro (vibrations) around them, which I see rarely in BKs and never in outside. satish
To be honest Satish, your English is so bad I really don't get out the point you are making. As an example of a Brahma Kumar, let's look at your response. Firstly, you make some arbitrary, abstract, badly composed philosophical " truth " that bears no relationship to the example I gave. Secondly, you infer cowardice on my behalf. A sort of subtle, cutting insult. Thridly, you ignore any response to the example I gave. What does this all mean? What is its purpose? I knew those sisters to. Whether they were or whether they were not loving, it makes no odds. In this case, and perhaps others, other women are being told by those senior sisters - on the basis of their unproven faith, inconsistent knowledge and personal style of organisational management - to have abortions. These individuals - and the organisation that creates the position for these individuals - have incredible power of suggestion over junior members. It is sold to juniors that " their word is "God's" word ", " their advice "God's" and to defy their word is to choose the Devil's path - or just as bad, " to follow your own personal instincts / intuitions. These individuals are / were also merely human, fairly uneducated, fairly inexperienced or undeveloped outside of their own discipline. I have seen them be wrong. I have seen them not understand or comprehend a question. I have seen them make some really stupid decisions. We all witness them going against the word of their " God " re the Dada Lehkraj photos. Many mention how selfish they can seem when it comes to hogging the stage and their " God's " time on this planet. I was often quite amazed at how emotional they could be in defiance of their faith over things like deaths of other seniors. And I have seen junior's hold on their every word in love / fear of rejection their lives being tossed around at the senior's will. Major life decisions being made as if on the toss of some dice. These individuals are basically beyond any sort of accountability whatsoever. You can't question them and if you do, you do not get any concrete answers. There is / was a huge environment where the potential for manipulation and abuse of personal power was rife. The Brahma Kumari system works to break down and take away every bit of your persona. At that time I was just a junior. What would questioning the seniors have achieved? I asked the sister in charge of the local centre. She gave me the party line, i.e. " end of the world coming ... pull on the intellect ". What was I to say / think / do? By their " Knowledge [tm] " what the women was being told was correct and true and *all* Brahma Kumaris would agree it. It is just a fact Satish of how much power and what influence the system afford these women and how they used it. [B]I am interested in knowing more so that a more complete picture of Braham Kumarism can be seen - not just the corporate PR.[b]
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
Omshanthi Firstly about my English, I would say I just learnt English after I grown up and its not the part of language I have preference to speak if not needed. Well the example you dont understand something says about the people who are indicating evil or ghost to a soul, forgetting what are they in real. This example I said to you because you are trying to name some sisters and telling against them. Well when you named, I immediately realised all you heard is something unbelievable and not true. I have my own personal experience, the seniors whom do you refer are far more genuine. And out of love they give advice to people. However I referred above example because one has to look into their self that how much truth that they really aware of. However I accept to fact that there are BKs who forget shivbaba, and add name of Dadi before shivbaba. This point had come even in murali to not to do like this. And lastly I am not insulting in any way when I said if you are brave why you not ask them questions by yourself. This I said because if one dont realise the truth on experience then the way is to ask qestion. And I know that some are not brave enough to ask even questions. ex-london says
Quote:
These individuals are / were also merely human, fairly uneducated, fairly inexperienced or undeveloped outside of their own discipline. I have seen them be wrong. I have seen them not understand or comprehend a question. I have seen them make some really stupid decisions.
And above words have no proofs from you though you say that is your experience. When you say fairly uneducated, do you really mean that they dont have any spiritual education?? And well if all XBKs who are browsing think the same thing then really I think God only can understand the spiritual people to whom you think. thanks with love satish
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
satish wrote:
Omshanthi This example I said to you because you are trying to name some sisters and telling against them. Well when you named, I immediately realised all you heard is something unbelievable and not true.
It is absolutely true. I can give you names, approximate dates and places. Look at the animation at the front of the website. Do you see the three characters? Keep your eyes closed, your ears covered and be afraid to speak the truth if you like. Whether the sisters can be sweet and loving or not does not contradict what I have written at all. In fact, they would have argued that their advice / encouragement / shrimat *WAS* the most compassionate and wise one to take. What might make more insteresting question and answer session with the seniors is a general one about early term abortion.
satish wrote:
And lastly I am not insulting in any way when I said if you are brave why you not ask them questions by yourself. This I said because if one dont realise the truth on experience then the way is to ask qestion. And I know that some are not brave enough to ask even questions.
It was a jibe and you are essentially calling me a liar to say the incident did not happen - which is a dangerous position to take when I can provide names and places for you to check up on. I discussed it with the head sister in my country at that time. I knew the woman that had the child.
ex-london wrote:
These individuals are / were also merely human, fairly uneducated, fairly inexperienced or undeveloped outside of their own discipline. I have seen them be wrong. I have seen them not understand or comprehend a question and fudge an answer. I have seen them make some really stupid decisions.
to which I would add " and infringe personal boundaries ".
satish wrote:
And above words have no proofs from you though you say that is your experience. When you say fairly uneducated, do you really mean that they dont have any spiritual education??
No, I mean that outside of Brahma Kumarism the vast majority have no education or experience - and at the time certainly little of the Western World. " Proofs " ... do you mean examples ? You could say that virginal senior BKs making decisions about pregnancies is about absurd as the Bishops Vatican making decisions about the use of contraception but from their point of view it is not. They think of themselves as wiser than Buddha and more compassionate than Jesus. Superior to all previous Saints. Do they have any " spiritual education "? I don't know. All we can say for sure is that they have had Brahma Kumarism education. Reading other books, studying other schools, listening to other thinkers is / was totally frowned upon and those others were born and died in the darkness of complete ignorant by the BK's definition. Remember they were pretty much locked up, for what, 25 years without access to even newspapers. You are taught that they are amongst the 8 or at leat 108 most high spiritual beings in the history of the world. There is all sorts of hysteria and speculation surrounding them, their psychic position and their powers. Dadi Janki specifically is universally considered to be amongst the 8 most enlightened human beings the world has ever known. All " numberwise ", you know it as well as I do. From their point of view, having early term abortions would not be a crime because their is not a soul in the body and being free of the burden of a baby would allow the junior to do more service and meditation thereby finding salvation for themselves. Likewise, the world is quote-unquote, " the Devil's Jail [ Ravan's Jail ] ", " completely impure ", about to be completely destroyed and the children born today are " scorpions and snakes ". To have had an abortion is entirely logical and positive thing to do by their logic. To bring a child into this world would be doing no favour to either party. I should imagine that if the same situation arose today they might whitewash their position with a thought to their corporate PR image but it would be interesting to ask. What goes on in there now? Do the senior sisters still give Shrimat on all aspects of individual's personal lives? To be honest, I do not entirely blame the senior sisters because much of the blame must lie with individuals amongst their entourage for encouraging and sustaining the hysteria. But what is a young person or junior to make of such an environment ?
Guest |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
Om shanti ex-london bhai! There is no need to be rude to Satish Bhai! I can understand your frustrations/anger. However Satish bhai is not needed to be typed this way. Take Care,
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject: |
Dear Ex-london I appreciate your frank opinion what you feel on BrahmaKumaris. However I have completely different opinion who are BKs. Well about the woman you are saying was adviced to abort and I am wondering when woman was already pregnant, what made her to go to Seniors for advice? Coming to the point of advice from seniors, I go to seniors just to say me how to avoid any attachment or so, which is coming across in path of my purity and obviously the answer from spiriual leaders can be expected by some one who are aware of spiritual aspects. In case of your words in letter when you saying abortions are encouraged by senior BKS this would go to wrong directions that senior BKs are adding new rule in shrimath that is only can be given by shivababa, supreme soul. And to the point seniors force on juniors is something I never seen in BK world. After all , the decision would be yours at the end of the day. This policy is always there in BK world. When advice is concerned anyone can give that, not only seniors. Like you and me too. And advice can vary from one senior BK to other. Similarly from one person to other.And when any senior said some advice, then it came from the determined path of purity which she follows. When woman came to seek advice from senior, obviously that senior BK would expect the woman who came for advice is striving for life of purity and might have tension to how the child she would take care of if she get one.. Is it not? Ok then you can tell me if woman was plain in her mind and was still interested in having baby what make her go to senior BK for advice? And I know no senior in BK world force their opinions on juniors. I have few words about your opinion that senior BKs were locked for 25years not knowing any of the world. Hmmm it is again the way one look at. I say BKs who surrendered are happy people compare to outsiders. I am saying it because I live outside world and I can understand how untruth the world is now a days. May be you are happy guy , I dont deny that. But to the core point BKs are striving for, which is purity, has happiness involved in it and I believe that cent percent. And Bk sisters in center have great decision power and social knowledge which we can understand from the way they organise gatherings, moving around the world, giving right speech to come into BK knowledge. It is not easy to impart spiritual knowledge to so many people when world is so much materialistic and fashion ridden. Lastly I would like to say whole control of BK is at supreme soul, shivababa. Have you ever felt his presence when you were new BK, pls check yourself and say? thanks with love satish
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
Dear Papaya Am I typing so badly? If my typing is rude to ex-london I apologize him. Well all my intention is to say that there can’t be any ill intent in surrendered and serviceable people. And it is not good for anyone to make fun of them. Anyways I hereafter stop posting about this matter. Probably you are right, frustration is dominating in ex-london. Thanks With love satish
marqu Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Amsterdam |
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: |
Dear all, Is n't it a challenge in life to learn to make up our own mind and to take responsibility for our choices? Our parents told us what to do and what not to do. In our puberty we became rebels. That's a good thing to learn to be an adult and make our own choices. When I became a BK, I felt the same rebellion against all the rules. Sometimes I followed them and sometimes I thought the rules did not fit me or were against my feelings. Everything we do, because others tell you to, makes us week. I remember a sister told me I had to go that year to Madhuban. I had no money. But she said it would be the last change because next year destruction would take place. So I borrowed money and felt bad the whole time. Because I did not listen to my own intuition. This is about 15 years ago and there would have been many chances to visit Madhuban. Now I try to listen to my conscience and better judgement when I do something. Sometimes I could have done better, but there is no one else to blame. To blame the sisters is not in order. It is for the person to decide whether to do what they say or to be an adult. I saw many sisters and brothers become week in there expression. Their eyes looked subservient to the sisters in charge. So one of the many lessons to learn in our life: are we living your life together with God and see our full potential and our grace or according to the will of others? Don’t make it to heavy and see it as an adventure. Love, Marja _________________ There is life after BK!
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
marqu wrote:
I remember a sister told me I had to go that year to Madhuban. I had no money. But she said it would be the last change because next year destruction would take place. So I borrowed money and felt bad the whole time. Because I did not listen to my own intuition. This is about 15 years ago and there would have been many chances to visit Madhuban.
Dear Marja, Does this mean that when she told you that destruction would take place the following year that you believed her? Fifteen years ago would be about 1990 - I wonder on what authority she said that the world would end the following year. I mean did this come from God, was it the official BK view at the time or was it just her personal opinion? Anyway I think it is a big problem for BK that they can give out this wrong information on such an important subject. I mean there is something profoundly wrong here, some colossal misunderstanding that is going on somewhere.
marqu Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Amsterdam |
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
Hello Uddhava, I have no idea were she got it from. Now she is a good friend and xbk. The point of my story is, that I allowed her to push me and that I did not listen to my own inner voice. So I don't blame her and take it as one of life's lessons. When I told her later what she had said, she was surprised. "I said that, o dear... ?" I believe all BK's do what they think they have to do at that moment and are convinced that it is God's will. But what is really God's will and what is the will of the system? Just like people believe that the Pope is the representative of Jesus. Until we wake up we are asleep. I wish you a beautiful day! Marja _________________ There is life after BK!
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: |
marqu wrote:
I have no idea were she got it from. Now she is a good friend and xbk... When I told her later what she had said, she was surprised. "I said that, o dear... ?" I believe all BK's do what they think they have to do at that moment and are convinced that it is God's will.
It is interesting that your friend didn't even remember saying this - I guess that in BK world, believing that the world is going to end next year is quite normal and unremarkable. It almost sounds like someone on a night out who has too much to drink and then says the next day 'did I really say / do that?!!' And of course there is the phrase 'spiritual intoxication'. I guess the moral of the story is that 'certitude is not the test of certainty' ie being convinced about something is not the same as it being true. At the time the BK is convinced and can't see any room for doubt - and yet looking back, the same person as an XBK, there was some flaw in their thought process which they couldn't see at the time, some fly in the ointment. I'm not sure it is even possible to say what that flaw / fly is, to pin it down, I mean it is quite complex. Anyway I know this is not your point but I find this fascinating. Your point is about taking responsibility for yourself and not blaming others. I agree but this is easier if you are a strong and robust person. I imagine that if you are a fragile or vulnerable person then being told the world is going to end next year could potentially be quite harmful. At the end of the day though I guess it is caveat emptor, you live and learn, you do your best, try to do what is right, try to find that which is true and beautiful.
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
satish wrote:
And to the point seniors force on juniors is something I never seen in BK world. After all , the decision would be yours at the end of the day.
Satish this is a strange reply. If it is true that any BK seniors encourage abortion I think this is v bad. Suppose that a sister is told 'have an abortion because the world is going to end next year'. Then she has an abortion but next year the world doesn't end. What guilt and trauma may this sister feel? Actually maybe my view on this is influenced by my western Christian culture - I really don't know what Indians think about abortion.
Quote:
And advice can vary from one senior BK to other.
I wonder if there is an official BK policy on abortion, or do they think it is ok that one senior says one thing on this subject and another says something else? I wonder if God has ever been asked about this through any of the chariots - I would be interested to hear his views on this important subject.
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
omshanthi Uddhava Sorry as I already said I can't discuss on this point. And main reason for this I think that I realised one cannot judge who is good and bad, except God. And judging is not good in path of spirituality. However I would like to say you some thing that BK movement is something to attain purity in your self by remembering Supreme soul, point of light. All destruction and knowledge comes later to this. And to me being in family , I think only by just rememberance purity is very much possible. As said in murali when you are close to achieving purity you are near to destruction. And this study is to attain purity but not to wait and expect for destruction. And also there is point in murali that knowledge can stay only in golden intellect, which is pure intellect. So what I think is we get more knowledge as we get more pure. Religious people from different religions, like Buddhism, christianity, hinduism, Islam etc strive only to attain complete purity in soul and they keep saying this would be the ultimate goal of life. Probably, here you agree that Purity would be task of every person in world. So what is tool to attain this? I see remembering shivababa is more powerful way rather than other ways. And one can feel this when remembering, supreme soul. Probably you might have different tool though, which you think is easy. Lastly from above description I would say there are no official policies or rules that can be set by seniors in BK world. This official rules, which is called shrimath, contains only ways to attain purity, would set by one and only shivababa . And all other activities in BK life follow based on purity point, shrimath but some time depends on sanskars of individuals, which is only in hands of individual responsibility. thanks with love satish
hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 |
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject: Woman Told to Have Abortion |
There is a third party in the soul triangle of a senior BK and a junior BK, who has not been discussed. That third party is the soul who was about to enter the embryo or fetus and take birth in that specific family. I'll discuss some data from studies conducted by Edgar Cayce's ARE and then I'll relate my personal spiritual experience which is a third party view similar but not as traumatic. Studies have indicated that souls when they have left their old bodies or even before darting make decisions on which pregnant women they would like to have as their mothers. These studies have indicated that souls will make visits to a pregnant mother and communicate their interests to be born in a specific family. On a personal level I grew up with two lokik fathers and two lokik mothers, and lokik brothers and sisters from two different families. How did it happen? At the age of three I left my lokik parents and lived with my aunt and uncle, who legally became my adopted parents. I lived with the family until I was sixteen, then I returned on my own free will to my true family. Before the age of three I felt a pull towards my aunt and uncle and the family. For more than forty years I could not explain my pre-teen and teenage years. Then late noe evening I was having a discussion about my childhood years, with one of my soul mates. She is extremely psychic and intuitive. She asked whether there was a death in the family of my step parents' family prior to my birth? There was. Immediately like a ton of bricks or psychic flash of light, I realized that I was one of the twins of my adopted parents! I never allowed my situation to make me sad or depressed. For me it was simply a case where I as the soul felt that taking birth with my true mother was best for my path in life than with my aunt who was my mother's sister. In fact, the home in which I took physical birth is located in a yard which used to be the compound for a mandir dedicated to Shiva! Due to my spiritual development, my strange past is no longer an issue for me and I never made it an issue growing up. My sisters should understand that there is a very significant aspect of pregnancy at a spiritual level. Women like my mothers understood that significance. I would say that many segments of the the Guyanese society, four decades ago, understood that significance. When a woman is pregant, souls are paying her visits and indicating to her their interests in having her as a mom! _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai
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