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bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: Picking out the jewels of knowledge |
In the early 1980s, long before I came to gyan, I was seeking the truth through psychic and hatha yoga meditation. However, I could not understand all those which I had experienced until I came into gyan. Similarly, I had a lot of dreams at that time related to what was going to happen to me after I came into gyan. However, I did not know that they related to this time and so I could not understand them either. For example, in one dream, I was surrounded by numerous elephants running around in a wild and confusing manner around me. There were a lot of people dressed in white but they were not looking at the elephants to understand as to why they were running around in that wild manner but I was looking at them and trying to understand why they were behaving in this manner. And I began to understand whereas all the others dressed in white did not understand. Before gyan I could never understand this dream. Elephants represent knowledge and that was as far I could understand of this dream, at that time. After coming into gyan and having seen people wearing white etc, I remembered this dream and I began to think that I understood the dream but I don't really think I understood it until just now. Just now, as I was churning on the point "picking out the jewels of knowledge like how a swan does" I began to contemplate on what was actually meant by this. We do not pick out jewels of knowledge from the knowledge given in bhakti. We are supposed to be picking it out from the murlis. However, swans are supposed to be good at picking out the jewels from that which includes jewels and stones. Does this imply that the murlis includes jewels and stones. Off course, BKs would argue that we should be like swans where our thoughts are concerned, i.e we should be picking and using the thoughts that are based on gyan and not using those which are not based on gyan. However, it is my view that God meant that we should be able to pick the Jewels out of the murlis like swans. This means that there are things said in the murlis which we can ignore. But then, why would God give the murli in such a wild and confusing manner so much so that we have to pick the jewels out from there. Maybe it is because God plays the role of being our Father, Mother, Teacher, Guide, etc. Since He plays these roles, He has to make sure that we get test papers etc so that we can become powerful and pass our final examination well. God does also tell us in the sakar murlis that if we do not have enough test papers, then He will tell Maya to give us test papers. I used to smile with so much of amusement when I hear this being read from the sakar murlis. But now, it does not seem so funny anymore. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Picking out the jewels of knowledge |
bkry wrote:
Does this imply that the murlis includes jewels and stones. .. that we should be able to pick the Jewels out of the murlis like swans. This means that there are things said in the murlis which we can ignore. But then, why would God give the murli in such a wild and confusing manner so much so that we have to pick the jewels out from there.
indeed.. I see the murli as the words of Brahma Baba, as inspired by Shiva. If Shiva is bodiless - never takes a body, ever, so never experiences the physical world, thus never taking aboard any impurity - then Shiva has no verbal language - he can only 'speak' via Brahma, or another embodied soul, using their language and understanding, which acts as a filter. So the murli is the words of Brahma Baba - and no matter how inspired BB might be, his words will never be 'immaculate' or 'perfect' . Also true spiritual knowledge is beyond verbal understanding - it has to be experienced through intuition, realisations, visions, dreams - hence the need to 'churn' and the need to be 'avyakt'. So BB very wisely warns us repeatedly though subtly that there are stones among the jewels, and we must develop our discrimination so as to identify the jewels. I was told when a BK by a 'senior' that BB said that if through churning, any aspect of gyan was proven inaccurate, then gyan should be changed. In other words he saw knowledge as constantly subject to revision in the light of experience. I think you have made a great point here - that the murlis are full of hints that they are food for thought and for inspiration, and not to be taken as literal and accurate in every word.
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Picking out the jewels of knowledge |
howiemac wrote:
I see the murli as the words of Brahma Baba, as inspired by Shiva. If Shiva is bodiless - never takes a body, ever, so never experiences the physical world, thus never taking aboard any impurity - then Shiva has no verbal language - he can only 'speak' via Brahma, or another embodied soul, using their language and understanding, which acts as a filter. So the murli is the words of Brahma Baba - and no matter how inspired BB might be, his words will never be 'immaculate' or 'perfect'.
Dear howiemac, What do you mean by 'inspired by Shiva'? Do you mean that Shiva, like the sun, shines on everyone equally and people respond according to their sensitivity, or do you mean that Shiva is an active God who has actually chosen Brahma Baba to be his messenger in a unique way different to all other religious founders? If the latter, isn't there a problem that God seems to have chosen someone with little understanding of history or science, and this has fundamentally undermined God's revelation? Re the world being 5000 years old for example, it is all very well to reinterpret this as metaphorical but surely Brahma Baba himself and most if not all BK's take it to be literally true. Surely God would not allow his chosen messenger to give us duff information.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:59 am Post subject: |
Hi Howiemac,
Quote:
I see the murli as the words of Brahma Baba, as inspired by Shiva. If Shiva is bodiless - never takes a body, ever, so never experiences the physical world, thus never taking aboard any impurity - then Shiva has no verbal language - he can only 'speak' via Brahma, or another embodied soul, using their language and understanding, which acts as a filter. So the murli is the words of Brahma Baba - and no matter how inspired BB might be, his words will never be 'immaculate' or 'perfect' .
This is my understanding completely and I thank you for putting the message across so eloquently. The words of the murli are the only starting point. If we focus on the meaning of the words an intellectual basis only, then we will never really learn anything.
Quote:
Also true spiritual knowledge is beyond verbal understanding - it has to be experienced through intuition, realisations, visions, dreams - hence the need to 'churn' and the need to be 'avyakt'.
We need to use the same language as God. Brahma Baba did this naturally and he is pointing us in the same direction. Analysis of the mechanics of the murli........."who speaks?", "What is a jewel and what is not a jewel?"........these questions melt away when we focus on the Source and His method of communicating with us. He is not 'saying' anything, He is 'being'. He is not telling us that He is peaceful, His expression is Peace. He is not telling us that He is loveful, His expression is Love. Brahma Baba is doing the telling, but God is being Peaceful, Loveful etc. We have to learn how to 'catch' God's expression by reading and then feel between the lines. Thinking is not helpful in this process! Thanks for that Howiemac om shanti with Love wahl
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:39 am Post subject: |
Uddhava wrote:
What do you mean by 'inspired by Shiva'? Do you mean that Shiva, like the sun, shines on everyone equally and people respond according to their sensitivity
yes
Quote:
or do you mean that Shiva is an active God who has actually chosen Brahma Baba to be his messenger
also yes but i presume not the only messenger...
Quote:
Re the world being 5000 years old for example....Surely God would not allow his chosen messenger to give us duff information
i don't think he has any say in the matter, Brahma will say what he thinks/believes, and i imagine Shiva is blissfully unconcerned... what will be will be.. he sees the big picture... I don't accept the 5000 years thing myself, nor many details in the murli, but i do perceive a shining light behind the words, which fascinates and uplifts me (even as my rational western intellect struggles with the literal words). many other spiritual writings also have this effect. As wahl just said:
wahl wrote:
We need to use the same language as God... We have to learn how to 'catch' God's expression by reading and then feel between the lines. Thinking is not helpful in this process!
love howiemac
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:00 am Post subject: Meaning of churning. |
howiemac wrote:
I was told when a BK by a 'senior' that BB said that if through churning, any aspect of gyan was proven inaccurate, then gyan should be changed. In other words he saw knowledge as constantly subject to revision in the light of experience. I think you have made a great point here - that the murlis are full of hints that they are food for thought and for inspiration, and not to be taken as literal and accurate in every word.
How senior a " senior "? I just ask because there are not that many " he " seniors and that sounds pretty heretical, from their point of view, to me. I wanted to ask a serious question about just what the B.K.s mean by " churning ". Am I the only one to find the word, and symbolism of it all, heavy and depressing? OK, so the symbolism of it comes from ancient Vaishnavite scripture but what does it actually mean within the B.K. context? My issues are that, given that the so-called " The Knowledge " [tm] is pretty damned sparce in comparison to other traditions such as Buddhism or proper Patanjali's Raja Yoga, there is not a hell of a lot to actually think about and, given especially that the original B.K.s and majority of current B.K.s are not exactly world leading academics or intellectuals, what are they actually thinking about? Are they thinking at all? I have a feeling that for many it just means to repeat over and over again in their minds, the " facts " they have learned, especially to be bale to teach. Originally and still, there must be a large amount of sieving through of Bhakti versus Gyan. For some, especially the Westerners, there must be an element of recompling their understanding of the world based around now absolute " God " given truths. For me, " The Knowledge " [tm] is just designed to plug questions in the mind in order to close it down and shut it up so that the channelling aspect of B.K. Raja Yoga can take place and this is reinforced by the institution where new thinking is discouraged and criticised. So how or when does this alleged institutional review take place? I really feel that " churning " has become one of those *BIG* B.K. words that no one really questions when they are in Gyan but really means very little when you put it under the microscope.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:49 am Post subject: |
Hi ex-london
Quote:
" The Knowledge " [tm]
I asked before...........what does [tm] mean here? If it means trade mark I'm not sure why. Do the BKs apply this? with love wahl
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Meaning of churning. |
ex-london wrote:
How senior a " senior "? I just ask because there are not that many " he " seniors and that sounds pretty heretical, from their point of view, to me.
yep.. it was a "he" and not strictly a "senior" though he has been around since the 70's and plays a central role in advising and supporting brothers in the UK (i believe that brothers are not considered seniors unless they are Indian... ) Anyway I am not naming him but you will probably know who I mean.. he played the role of senior counsellor for me when I was involved, and helped me a lot.
Quote:
I wanted to ask a serious question about just what the B.K.s mean by " churning ". Am I the only one to find the word, and symbolism of it all, heavy and depressing?..... I really feel that " churning " has become one of those *BIG* B.K. words that no one really questions when they are in Gyan but really means very little when you put it under the microscope.
I see it as contemplating what you have learnt from murlis, yoga experiences, and every other input you have, and, sort of lateral thinking, coming to realisations which can then further not just your knowledge, but potentially everyones... hence the need for discussing, sharing experiences and 'churnings' and generally allowing the knowledge to progress and evolve. I believe that this is what Brahma taught, and how he evolved his own ideas. As per the topic of this thread: 'pick out he jewels' from the pebbles. Some of the jewels will prove the existing thinking to be flawed..
Quote:
So how or when does this alleged institutional review take place?
not likely i don't think the BK organisation pays much heed to any of Brahma's ideas that don't fit their rigid system of dogma. Individuals can be much more flexible, but the organisation seems set in stone, (and therefore bound to sink.....?) This takes us back to bkry's elephants of knowledge:
bkry wrote:
There were a lot of people dressed in white but they were not looking at the elephants...
Even some of the things Brahma repeats endlessly in almost every murli are ignored, or subverted into "facts" that need no further enquiry. Perhaps if they 'churned' the knowledge more....
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:14 am Post subject: [tm] |
wahl wrote:
Hi ex-london
Quote:
" The Knowledge " [tm]
I asked before...........what does [tm] mean here? If it means trade mark I'm not sure why. Do the BKs apply this?
I does mean trademark. A small cynicism on my behalf because nothing these days appears real any more and everything is " owned " and distorted by vested interests. It actually happened in the US with some other group. Something equivalent to " The Path to Enlightenment " became trademarked so that no one else could use it. Of course, I dare say that " The Course of Miracles " is trademarked. I shake my head and laugh. I am just trying to highlight how knowledge and Knowledge and " The Knowledge " become different from each other; and to empasise how the B.K.'s use the world Knowledge to mean something entirely different as it might be heard by someone not indoctrinated into their tradition. We hear the word knowledge, or words " love of knowledge " and think it is good. We are attracted but, low and behold, it means something entirely different; the B.K.'s particular product or process, e.g. " get sucked in ; stop thinking " They don't actually use a trademark. Yet. But don't suppose they can't as all their terminology is borrowed or stolen.
bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
There is such a thing as the magic of the murli. When we listen to the murli with the happiness and believe that it's God's words, then we will fly as soon as we hear the murli. This is based on a blessing from God. God has told us, in the murlis, that we are Parvathys listening to the murli in the subtle region. Parvathy is the wife of God. We experience being Parvati when we have faith that it is God's words (in the murli) and we experience spiritual love for God. However, there is a difference between accepting the whole murli as the words of God to picking out the jewels of knowledge to churn on. Churning means to comtemplate on the murli point. Contemplating on the murli point with faith enables us to establish a link to God. Then, we will be able to have experiences and understand knowledge to a greater extent. Picking out the jewels of knowledge to churn on is different from the "magic of the murli". "Magic of the murli" involves acceptance of the whole murli as God's words and we immediately fly when we hear it as God's words. However, when we churn, we have to pick the jewels of knowledge out from the murlis to churn on. Actually, one doesn't have to use the word "churn" when we refer to the process of "contemplating on the murli points". The reason why it is used is because there is a Hindu story where the deities were supposed to have churned the ocean and got beautiful things from that (including nectar). Thus, the word "churn" is used so as to get the benefits which we get from contemplating on the jewels of knowledge. One can use other words for churning if they wish to. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: |
Hi For me murali has its own speciality. Its because from my experience the murali would bring some intoxication, if we hear that early morning. The points are repeated becasue human intellect needs that to remember always. And there is happiness in it, as it reminds our purpose and business. Surprisingly we get the spiritual point that we are seeking inside. Well if we take the murali as we took that when we were in beginning of BK world, then there is no complaint. Also being in shrimath would be easy that day, with intoxication. However, there are lot of things maya gets you, surprisingly. People leave BK, for not able to be in Shrimath. Some become far because they failed in being shrimath, though it is said in Murali we should start again. But main cause is purity and other reasons come later. Well whole argument with XBK can end, when question in them comes that, "is it not ultimate goal for all religions is purity?". I also wonder whether God important or purity important. Its no use for God to know him completely if we stick to bodily things. Also , is there any gurantee that we humans won't keep giving complaints or reasons even after acquiring all proofs that so and so is God? We just solve our questions, but impurity lies around still. My point is Bk world has lots of stuff for working to be soul conscious. thanks satish
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
bkry wrote:
Actually, one doesn't have to use the word "churn" when we refer to the process of "contemplating on the murli points".
I think the problem that a lot of us had is when we do " contemplate " on it, it does not add up; and when we ask questions we are told to shut up and go away [ literally, " Remember Baba ... " ]. The problem with the Murlis is that they are actually not that deep or detailed. There is not that material in them. They are very simplistic and repetitive. I mean, you could probably edit down every single point made [ without repititions ] to a few thousands words. They and this way of teaching may have had relevence when the Yuyga was a small group of mainly uneducated, in anyway, young girls and old ladies. I think that the problem is that the small selection that exist and what they contain have been elevated into something that they are not, entirely out of context, like some unquestioned holy relics. It appears that B.K.s Raja Yoga is actually quite anti-intellectual and has become a process of dumbing down individuals to keep the mind out of the way of the psychic channelling that is going on. In my opinion, " Churning " has come to mean repeating, indoctrinating, mental destructuring and conforming. Original thought is not welcomed and the Brahmins are left checking that any thoughts in their heads, read doubts, are removed and everything matches up with this simplistic mindset. May be you can just put it down to being a Western thing, Satish, we expect out leaders, teachers, enlightened people to be intelligent and accountable. Rather then " control ... law and order " as you state in your other post, it is also the requirement of creating structure.
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
Yes ex-london if we look at main point of BK, "purity" then all intelligence and science will burst out with laugh. May be one should have interest in bible, atleast, to accept purity is main thing in life. Well coming to murali, there are many BKs who say that their favourite thing is Murali, as it guides their day. It repeats to remind us. And it is simple, which is always good. I agree that there is no much detail in it, giving all answers. All would be BKs in world, if we could find much detail and probably that will be a day when gates are open to Golden age. Again my point is "Is purity not main thing in any religion that interest you?" thnks satish
John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: |
I think the main point is God realisation and soul realisation and top get to that stage purity has been prescribed. But to be completely pure takes complete knowledge and to gain complete knowledge requires questions and answers. We have questions. We need answers.
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
But to be completely pure takes complete knowledge
John, how is that relate to following purity. If it is just soul knowledge we have that vast. thnks satish
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