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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: |
Dear Gy, I can't get your 'dilemma' out of my head. It hadn't really occurred to me before, but, since you have pointed it out to me, I think you are absolutely right about my belief or rather my disbelief in the fact that God incarnates in Madhuban. I have never posed the question to myself and that's amazing. It has cleared a few cobwebs for me. Thanks. GY said
Quote:
The thing is, it requires another "experience" to replace (displace?) the emotional bond formed during those BK days.
This is only my opinion, and is given with great respect for your wealth of spiritual experience. However, I think that it is possible that you are allowing this emotional bond to hold you back. You felt so much love at that time that you think it is not possible to find that again, but I don't think that you will even begin to find that close connection with God again until you let go of such high expectations. Whilst you are 'waiting' for the replacement, you are giving life to the very thing that is holding you back. GY said
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Then I ask myself if I feel no anger against God, why can't I relate to him? Then comes the answer: that the closest I came to understanding Him was through the BK path. So when I used to tell people I had 'left the knowledge' and they would express the hope that I still meditated, I'd be annoyed that they could not understand the depth of my faith that I had 'met God' and was now estranged.
I would imagaine that you do still meditate, but why do you think that you were asked this question? One more question Gy...........(I asked this before but you didn't pick up on it) GY said
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If we have complete faith that this is God speaking then, failing to ask Him directly and get a direct response, we must somehow rationalize in our heads the discrepencies…..
Why do you think that it is not possible to ask Him directly anyway? With love and respect, wahl om shanti
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: |
Whal wrote:
Quote:
I can't get your 'dilemma' out of my head. It hadn't really occurred to me before, but, since you have pointed it out to me, I think you are absolutely right about my belief or rather my disbelief in the fact that God incarnates in Madhuban. I have never posed the question to myself and that's amazing. It has cleared a few cobwebs for me. Thanks.
I really appreciate this frank confession Whal. It clarifies for me the basis of your relationship to God, especially how you conceive (rather than perceive) him. Your conception is that of a universal God transcending all cultural and religious boundaries. That kind of conception gives you great latitude for spiritual growth since it frees you from the narrower restrictions of religious creeds or articles of faith. For instance, the phenomenon of Christ can be understood in a transcendental esoteric sense of the Love, Power and the character of God Incarnate which is accessible to all of Mankind and is found in the heart or essence of every religion. On that level, the spirit of Christ runs through the best in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc., as well as in the best of those declaring themselves atheists. That is why Christ could have mingled with “sinners” and I sometimes tell Christians that if He were to reappear on earth today he would easily relate to all religions because He represents the best in them all. Conservative Christians and other religious fundamentalists might find this impossible to accept because they have neatly compartmentalized or bottled God for common human consumption. Unfortunately, the BKs have fallen into that category also, so that when the basic tenets of their knowledge are tested with time there is no scope for evolution whereby the human mind and intellect can grow into an expanded experience of God. Instead, like other religions, they have to remain restricted within the confines of their ‘original doctrine’ or lose their professed uniqueness as the only true way. What the BK path attempts to do is merge the conception of a universal God with the perception we have of the entity called Shiv Baba who is supposed to enter Dadi Gulzar (along with the soul of Prajapita Brahma). And that was the faith I had. I remember returning from my first visit to Madhuban after telling my family and work colleagues that I was going to India to meet God where he had descended. The first thing my mother asked me (very anxiously) was whether I had asked Him about my lokik father who had passed away a few years before! Of course I brushed off such questions as irrelevant, saying that I could not ask Him about such trifles when He had descended for more important tasks such as changing the world! Naturally, she was disappointed, especially since my father was a devout Christian and she was still grieving. The things we do when we are “intoxicated”! Another friend from schooldays chuckled and said I was reminding Him of the George Burns film “Oh God” or something like that. The point is, the difference between my understanding of the universal God and the God of the BKs was by then blurred or erased. My intrinsic faith in the universal God became merged with my faith in Shiv Baba. The point at which this happened was when I learnt to say “Shiv Baba” as though he were my personal father and not an abstract or intellectual concept. A strong emotional bond was formed – and that is the real “yoga” or “yug.” For me, then, to separate from the BKs and maintain a relationship with God is to deconstruct that fusion between the universal and the particular. Because you did not experience that fusion the way I did, it is easier for you to disconnect from the movement and not experience an estrangement from God. In reality, you were never really “taken in” by the BK doctrine as such and so you have found it easier to ‘walk away’ or rather to ‘walk on.’ On the other hand, my anguish in estrangement is a measurement of the depth of my faith. You said:
Quote:
However, I think that it is possible that you are allowing this emotional bond to hold you back. You felt so much love at that time that you think it is not possible to find that again, but I don't think that you will even begin to find that close connection with God again until you let go of such high expectations. Whilst you are 'waiting' for the replacement, you are giving life to the very thing that is holding you back.
Perhaps you are right, but then to “let go of such high expectations” I would have to “emotionally forget” the whole experience and convince myself it was all based on an illusion. The second part may be easier to do (and much of that can be done through interactions such as this one) but the emotional experience has to be replaced over time or displaced by something just as powerful or more powerful. Remember, I “met God” in Madhuban. A few years ago, in the midst of discussing my spiritual crisis with my wife, I suddenly stopped in frustration, buried my head in my hands and started sobbing and asking “then who was that entity I met in Madhuban so many years ago?” I was (maybe still am!) in that sort of netherworld of uncertainty. Letting go, Whal, depends on how much you had grasped. And so when you assume that I still meditate, the answer is no. I sometimes try another method but the emotional bond is missing, so there is no “pull”; instead I sometimes contemplate Nature or try to “enter the silence” beyond earth but there is no longer a sense of personal bonding with God. What I have is the common faith of Man that He exists in some form and manifests in whatever goodness and beauty we see around us. You remark:
Quote:
One more question Gy...........(I asked this before but you didn't pick up on it) GY said Quote: If we have complete faith that this is God speaking then, failing to ask Him directly and get a direct response, we must somehow rationalize in our heads the discrepancies….. Why do you think that it is not possible to ask Him directly anyway?
I think from your type of experience and point of view, asking is simple: you go into meditation and, if your connection is “clear” then you will receive answers. For me there were basically 2 methods of asking directly: through meditation and in Madhuban “face to face.” You might receive one answer through Meditation and have it totally overruled through the Administration which has a more “physical” connection through Madhuban; on the other hand, if you had ever gone to Madhuban you would have understood how all your questions and doubts can fade when caught up in the ethos of reverence there before “Baapdada.” At that time, I did not question the basic tenets of knowledge. No, I had full faith in them. You see Whal, before going to Madhuban, one has to be strong in faith. Try going back to your centre and telling them you want to visit Madhuban and you will see that you are required to attend morning classes regularly for six months. This is – among other preparations – a screening process to remove all serious doubts from your mind. If you still have difficulties then you might be advised that “your stage is not high enough” and as such you should wait for the appropriate time. The analogy for this in the Hindu scriptures, we were told, is the story of Narad who entered the court of Indra with questionable intentions. In this case your questions or doubts will be classified as “body-consciousness” creating a “bad odour” and as such they will affect the pure vibrations of Madhuban – so better go into deeper remembrance to “improve your stage.” You can understand, then, why the PBKs would never be permitted to enter Madhuban and ask questions. On this topic of direct asking though: once, sitting before Baba in Madhuban in a personal meeting, I asked whether he had any message or toli for another brother. This brother had met him a few years before but was now in a funk or low stage. The question was translated and Baba leaned forward alert and said something in Hindi which, when translated, said “Tell him his service is very good; he should keep it up!” Puzzled, I received toli for the brother and delivered it to him on my return. He looked most perplexed, then sad and thoughtful, then remarked “something is wrong here.” In all that though, Madhuban was truly enchanting and in retrospect I think its egregore benefits from the rich and wholesome vibrations generated by thousands who give of the best of their souls, in deep faith that it is the earthly home of God. [There is a post on the egregore in the xbk discussion forum that you might find relevant to this discussion] I appreciate your continued interest Whal. I think it helps me in my healing process. Warm regards, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
Dear Gy, Such honesty.........you really are laying out your heart for all to examine.
Quote:
And so when you assume that I still meditate, the answer is no.
But Gy, this is madness! Why do you not meditate? with love wahl
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
Omshanthi Gyan bhai It is very nice to read about your experience. This is great to hear you had a very loveful days when you were BK. But it was no more now what I understood from your words. . Gyanwasi wrote
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Unfortunately, the BKs have fallen into that category also, so that when the basic tenets of their knowledge are tested with time there is no scope for evolution whereby the human mind and intellect can grow into an expanded experience of God
. If I look one of the reason behind that you left the BKs ,in simple words, is that there is no much clarity in knowledge you could get. I have question to you, Leaving the knowledge of cycle, do you think that spiritual knowledge (soul knowledge), the meditation part, what BKs say does lack any clarity in experiencing GOD? Gyanwasi wrote
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The first thing my mother asked me (very anxiously) was whether I had asked Him about my lokik father who had passed away a few years before!
and also Gyanwasi wrote
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On this topic of direct asking though: once, sitting before Baba in Madhuban in a personal meeting, I asked whether he had any message or toli for another brother. This brother had met him a few years before but was now in a funk or low stage. The question was translated and Baba leaned forward alert and said something in Hindi which, when translated, said “Tell him his service is very good; he should keep it up!” Puzzled, I received toli for the brother and delivered it to him on my return. He looked most perplexed, then sad and thoughtful, then remarked “something is wrong here.”
I wondered about your question to GOD, Supreme soul, that you were thinking.. When you met a GOD(who will take care for every one) and when had a chance to ask a question your question was not for yourself. Well I am not saying the question that you asked was not good, but the point here is about your purusharth and your path of life. Well I came across English sister in centre who had wonderful and amazing experience when personal meeting with BapDada..Amazing thing is the picture which she presented to Bapdada in personal meeting two years back was reminded to her by Bapdada when she met again and adviced some knowledge to follow. And this amazing experiences we come to hear not just from personal meeting with BapDada. I came across a brother's experience with Prakashmani Dadi to whom Dadi told to follow or do certain thing about the family problem that brother was going on. This brother who was very serviceable in Madhuban, never told about his problem to Dadi and to anyone at all. I am not trying to saying that even Dadis are like God but their link to God is so close. Even there was point in Murali that Dadis have vision of finding the thoughts of other people before them, if they want. Definitely this is their result of their effort in rememberance to Shivababa. Anyways Gyanwasi your past actions were so good(Its my belief) that you had a loveful experience for some time. Probably Whal was saying right "Why do you not meditate?" And I believe mediation would solve ones questions..the best past experiences of ones meditation would let one to start again that experience. In spiritual life, experience(that has mix of head and heart) plays vital role to progress in it more. thanks with love satish
Guest |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
Dear gyaniwasi, Baba has said we connect others to him to the extent we ourselves have connection with him. You do good service with your sincerity.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: |
Whal, Satish, Andrey: Thanks for your kind words of support but I'm amazed that after all I have explained you still find it difficult to understand why I can't meditate in the BK mode First of all, the meditation you refer to is not a contemplation of God through Nature. There is a very beautiful Hindi song that says "if the creation is so beautiful then how beautiful must be the Creator." That way of relating to God is more common on the path of Bhakti - which is where I think you guys might be right now. No offence meant here! As a matter of fact, I get some measure of peace from tuning into Nature, music etc. No. The meditation I assume you mean is loveful connection with Shiv Baba, the Supreme Father of all souls as introduced to us through the BrahmaKumaris. Am I right? Well if I am then it means I have failed to communicate clearly what I meant by the two meanings of "integrity" I explained to Whal a few days ago. Satish, you said:
Quote:
I have question to you, Leaving the knowledge of cycle, do you think that spiritual knowledge (soul knowledge), the meditation part, what BKs say does lack any clarity in experiencing GOD?
The whole experience of God through the BK method of meditation is inextricably bound up with the whole body of their knowledge. That is my central point. You cannot meditate on Shiv Baba and remain unaware of the significance of the time you are supposed to be living through (the Confluence Age or Purshottam Sangam Yug!) The whole significance of the experience of your "loveful connection" becomes almost meaningless if you remain oblivious to this "fact." If one tells me that it is quite possible to continue meditation after leaving knowledge and not experience a sense of conflict with Shiv Baba's mission to transform the world through one's own transformation based on that very process of meditation one so much enjoys and benefits from, then I would say one is living through a sort of schizophrenia. There is a split in one's personality that veils an underlying contradiction. Meditation, in the BK sense, is a stage towards 'yoga' which practically means relationship; in BK Raj Yoga one relates to God, the Supreme, known as Shiv Baba. Relationships are reciprocal in nature. You cannot sit in meditation, experience meaningful yoga and remain disconnected from 'Shiv Baba's service.' That used to be clearly illustrated in the picture of the Yogi sitting on four pillars - gyan, satsang, sattwic diet and inculcation of virtues. You were 'serviceable' only if you sat firmly on those four pillars. Alter the gyan (through 'revisionist' readings to make it more in sync with the advancing times) and remove yourself - through disagreements or dislikes - from the 'satsang' of Shiva's divine family (which He came to earth expressly to create) and you are no longer able to "meditate" in the BK sense. What has happened then is that you have managed to re-adjust your reality by selectively retaining the knowledge of God as a point of light and energy as your chosen and most valid experience of the Universal God. You have managed to extract the "particular" experience of God based on the Brahma Kumaris' body of knowledge and transformed it to a "universal" experience of God, free from all the fetters of the organization "He" is said to have initiated through the instrument of Dada Lekraj/Brahma. That is a feat I have not accomplished; and that is essentially what I am asking you guys to explain to me - how does one do it if one were truly immersed in the path as I was? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject: |
Dear Gy,
Quote:
Meditation, in the BK sense, is a stage towards 'yoga' which practically means relationship; in BK Raj Yoga one relates to God, the Supreme, known as Shiv Baba. Relationships are reciprocal in nature. You cannot sit in meditation, experience meaningful yoga and remain disconnected from 'Shiv Baba's service.'
Meditation, in any sense, not just BK, is as you describe. God's nature becomes your nature if you are truly in a close relationship with Him., ie you cannot help but be connected to God's service. Service, is the natural expression of a pure soul who is near to God.
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gyan, satsang, sattwic diet and inculcation of virtues. You were 'serviceable' only if you sat firmly on those four pillars
Once again, it is possible to sit firmly on these four pillars without the company of other BKs and requisite approval of the Dadis...........but not without the very practical process of meditation. om shanti _________________ om shanti wahl
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
Gyanwasi wrote:
Quote:
You have managed to extract the "particular" experience of God based on the Brahma Kumaris' body of knowledge and transformed it to a "universal" experience of God, free from all the fetters of the organization "He" is said to have initiated through the instrument of Dada Lekraj/Brahma. That is a feat I have not accomplished; and that is essentially what I am asking you guys to explain to me - how does one do it if one were truly immersed in the path as I was?
Omshanthi Gyan Bhai Yes brother, I understood you were a Brahmin who involved into BK organization quite largely. But some or other way your loop of questions on BKs origin has come up and definitely these might have created questions on existence of supreme soul, a point of light, his present task, his way of introduction to people in world through Dada Lekraj. I understood that you have quite a number of questions. In this context you are absolutely right you cannot meditate the way you used to do while you were BK or the type of meditation that is called as RajYoga in BK organization. Whole way your stress on questions dominated you so much that it made you doubt the entire existence of BK organization. However have you ever tried to ask these questions to any of the senior brothers or senior sisters, or Dadis? I don’t think if one is very reasonable with the questions with out having firm heart on their opinions then you would definitely receive the answers from BKs. Even it was said in one of muralis by shivababa that if one has questions on knowledge one can ask Ramesh brother( one of senior in Madhuban) or some other brother (I don’t remember his name now). Anyways if you think your experiences are so strong on you that you made your opinions on BKS then I would say probably you have different task in world which is not related to the BKs and Whal’s approach of mediation without having help from BKs would suit you or perhaps for any one who is non-BK but those who are interested in spirituality. Thanks With love Satish
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
Whal, after reading:
Quote:
Meditation, in any sense, not just BK, is as you describe. God's nature becomes your nature if you are truly in a close relationship with Him., ie you cannot help but be connected to God's service. Service, is the natural expression of a pure soul who is near to God.
I have to conclude that (amazingly!) you have missed the essential significance of the Brahma Kumaris raison d'etre. Satish: Thanks buddy, but the buck never stopped at the seniors. So long guys, thanks a lot for the patience and responses. Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject: |
Dear Gy,
Quote:
I have to conclude that (amazingly!) you have missed the essential significance of the Brahma Kumaris raison d'etre.
I know that your BK bond was much stronger than mine Gy, but for different reasons we both find ourselves (as does everyone on this forum) sitting on the perimeter fence, looking back in to the BK camp, with some more homesick than others. From what you say, it seems that there was always a gap in my understanding which possibly became the reason that I left the BKs. I was always, and still am aware of the power of the avyakt nature of the soul and the Supreme Soul, and the relationship between Creator and creation. Please tell me, what is the BK raison d'etre? From where I am standing now, I would say that it is to create heaven, in a practical way, on behalf of God at this special time? _________________ om shanti wahl
uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham |
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
wahl wrote:
Please tell me, what is the BK raison d'etre? From where I am standing now, I would say that it is to create heaven, in a practical way, on behalf of God at this special time?
Just to give my two cents…. The raison d’etre that Wahl offers here could be applied to any religion, and as such it is not a BK raison d’etre because it has been stripped of BK-ness ie that which distinguishes BK from other religious ideas. The heart and foundation of BK is that God enters a certain Indian person who he uses as a medium to reveal knowledge about the world. This knowledge is very specific and is generally taken quite literally by BK’s. The Indian person (BB, DG, VDD etc) claims unambiguously and literally to be the medium of God. Is it fair then us for us to re-interpret this in some way, as if we know better than the medium, the horse’s mouth as it were. So there is a ‘dilemma’ here that we have to either accept or reject that God is literally speaking through this medium. We have to be careful about fudging this central question. If we accept it, it must follow that everything the medium says is true because it is none other than God who speaks. It also follows that we would want to be in the presence of the mind-blowing and world-shattering goings on of Madhuban. If we reject the central BK idea of God’s medium then, to state the obvious, there remains the fact of the medium’s claim – we have to say that the medium is wrong. Even if we reinterpret this in some universal religious message way, it remains that we are saying that the medium’s central claim is fundamentally wrong. The lack of ambiguity in the BK claim is very important here – I mean there isn’t much room for re-interpretation – it is much more than a vague ‘divine inspiration’.
wahl wrote:
It hadn't really occurred to me before, but, since you have pointed it out to me, I think you are absolutely right about my belief or rather my disbelief in the fact that God incarnates in Madhuban. I have never posed the question to myself and that's amazing.
Wahl, that is amazing! If we disbelieve in the BK incarnation then there are questions like why does this person claim to be the medium of God if it is not true, and why do some people believe it? There is a thread somewhere like ‘what is it all about?’ If it is not God who enters the medium is it some other entity, or is there no other entity involved? If we disbelieve in the incarnation but take the general situation as benign, there is the question of why would a benign force tell us things that are untrue re the mediumship, and if this is untrue what else that he says is untrue?
gyaniwasi wrote:
A few years ago, in the midst of discussing my spiritual crisis with my wife, I suddenly stopped in frustration, buried my head in my hands and started sobbing and asking “then who was that entity I met in Madhuban so many years ago?” I was (maybe still am!) in that sort of netherworld of uncertainty. Letting go, Whal, depends on how much you had grasped.
Because there is this great gulf between either it is true or it is not, I can imagine that this could cause great spiritual / emotional etc trauma for someone who goes from believing (with all that goes with that) to disbelieving – this is one kind of an ‘XBK’. Another kind of XBK is someone who never subscribed to the full BK view – clearly there will be little if any trauma here, and it may be easy for this person to re-orient themselves to seeing BK in terms of a wider universal spiritual message.
wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
Dea Uddhava,
Quote:
It also follows that we would want to be in the presence of the mind-blowing and world-shattering goings on of Madhuban.
But I didn't want to be in that presence, otherwise I would have gone! After all, I had the opportunity year after year. This realisation hit me like a steam train at 150 miles per hour. Gy had offered an explanation for my reluctance to make the journey up the mountain. There is no getting away from it.............I think he has hit the nail on the head. However, it has also opened up another path in my mind........one which has been bubbling in me for quite a while. Since 'leaving' BK life, I have opened myself up to other spiritual information and I now know that the BK organisation is not the only source of such Universal Truths of soul, Supreme Soul, karma, cycle, ladder, tree. As a Westerner with no previous knowledge of Eastern philisophy and religion and never having done any real spiritual searching before, I didn't even see any reason to believe in God. Then, I came across the BK organisation by accident..............but the knowledge just blew me away. The knowledge of these eternal universal truths still blows me away!
Quote:
If we disbelieve in the BK incarnation then there are questions like why does this person claim to be the medium of God if it is not true, and why do some people believe it?
I really don't know.
Quote:
Because there is this great gulf between either it is true or it is not, I can imagine that this could cause great spiritual / emotional etc trauma for someone who goes from believing (with all that goes with that) to disbelieving – this is one kind of an ‘XBK’. Another kind of XBK is someone who never subscribed to the full BK view – clearly there will be little if any trauma here, and it may be easy for this person to re-orient themselves to seeing BK in terms of a wider universal spiritual message.
I think you will find me wandering somewhere between the two at this moment in time! _________________ om shanti wahl
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
Omshanthi Brothers Truth about BK organisation is something that becomes firm into us when we go to murali every morning, follow shrimath(Like celibacy, churning spiritual points, and mainly remembering shivbaba, a supreme point of light) by keeping faith on shivababa for atleast 6- 8 months initially. Then definitely I say that our natural chating (not too much questions though)with supreme soul starts becoming more real...and one will have faith in supreme soul, shivbaba. This I have experience myself.. Once when one have faith in shivababa, then believing in BK knowledge is automatic. And I dont believe if any one had undergone that way and felt no use still. Its not research on Bk knowledge and then Shivababa will do ..I say this might do only when end of cycle that is everything finished..and that time too late board for our effort is seen to us. I have just one question, What do you think so many BKs, who are educated so much are just relying on BK world without having any experience of link with shivbaba but just based on knowledge??? KNOWLEDGE can be created but true experience one who felt from supreme soul cannot be fake... I am not saying, however, to not to take knowledge and do shrimath because it is everything interconnected...but take knowledge of cycle without going depth in that and follow shrimath(which is spiritual part in BK) then lively connection is much possible with supreme soul, I believe. Remember the four pillars --> celibacy, Satsang, pure food, knowledge are main things in shrimath... Whal, you approach has strength but see that satsang, which is being BK family, would double your effort I believe. thanks with love satish
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
Uddhava: Thanks buddy. It's the first time I've seen someone on this site acknowledge so clearly what I've been trying to communicate. I couldn't help breathing a sigh of relief. Whal: I really appreciate your sincere replies to me in this discussion - even though we're clearly not quite 'on the same page' in our BK experiences. It really makes communication easier when one displays such patience and civility. In you I can sense one who is capable of true spiritual growth. Satish: I have to smile when I see you say
Quote:
I am not saying, however, to not to take knowledge and do shrimath because it is everything interconnected...but take knowledge of cycle without going depth in that and follow shrimath(which is spiritual part in BK) then lively connection is much possible with supreme soul, I believe.
This is just what the average BK would say From this I have to conclude that you are either still fully immersed in the BK world or you are closer to it on the xbk continuum. I cannot take anything much from your position. I used to be there a long time ago my friend. Strange thing though: we are always advised to churn the knowledge - and for many years we tried to justify it precisely because of our implicit faith that it originated from God and therefore it could not be wrong; yet, when that very instrument of churning - the intellect - leads us to question its integrity or completeness then BKs adopt your attitude of "...take knowledge of cycle without going depth..." Whal, Uddhava: we're in an existential nexus. Thanks for the companionship. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
satish Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 |
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:35 am Post subject: |
Dear Gyan bhai Until now I have all convincing answers in knowledge.So I dont see any questions at all in knowledge. Actually in earlier post I have hesitated to ask you questions that you have, thinking my answers might not satisfy you. Like see the PBKs, even after answering some question they come to same point leading to a loop that start with same question and same answer again. And one knows that loop never ends. This is all because either side one have formed opinions. For me when I get any question in knowledge I will have answer immediately after having some analysis. Anyways I will go bit further in this discussion of questions... The questions I usually get is How the universe and out of it, is like? Why one has to suffer so brutually in world, which God has created? So it goes on like this on different human emotions and Gods world, which most of times I will try to analyse them. Well when comes to history and geography I am fully convinced that they can be like that definitely. Dont they ? And churning I think what God has said is about to increase the broadness in spirituality and if one say that churning is to collect the proofs for cycle of knowledge .....hmmm then that is not my point of view at all. However Gyan bhai I dont know what is the completeness that you dont see in this knowledge..or probably have you experienced some thing bad in BK world? Let me see what are your questions in knowledge, so that I too can have some of it. thanks with love satish
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