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Brahmins Who Love Too Much [aka Sex, Lies and Murli Songs]*
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ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Brahmins Who Love Too Much [aka Sex, Lies and Murli Songs]* |
[ * with acknowledgment to un-B.K.s Robin Norwood and Steven Soderbergh, may you each have at least one additional life right at the end of the Copper Age on me ]. OK. I'd like to pick up on this post and draw in the thread on celibacy elsewhere as it seemed out of place in 5000 year long discussion the similar topic that G-wasi mentions is no longer with us. Sex, Lies and Murli Songs ... Watch this space ... [ or get yours in first ].
gyaniwasi wrote:
Sanvean's experience and the ensuing discussions have opened again this controversial question of love and sexuality in relation to the BKs and other paths. I'd just like to share some thoughts on this. First, I think the hall mark of most of us who are here is that we have made a conscious decision to explore life outside of a closed path, outside of all paths that are intolerant to the normal human faculty of critical thinking - whether we are labeled xbk, nbk or cbk (critical bk - just my impromptu coinage) The one thing that we try to practice here, given our common experience of being closed-minded is a tolerance for divergent views while being critical of them. To adopt an intolerant attitude to another's point of view is, ironically, to practice the very attitude of which we became victims. One of the things I learn from participating on this site is compassion. I realized that after I began dialogue with Eugene on his ground-breaking post. It occurred to me that even the "SS" needed compassion because many of them truly believe all of the doctrines they espouse. And even for those who don't, the thought of an unknown void as an alternative is so terrible that they instinctively remain in a shell of faith, reinforcing it daily through habitual practice. It is an irony then, that we, the 'black sheep', can grow spiritually in this pasture. We should avoid burning it. Now about this thing called Love. Sometime ago - I think in the BK forum before it was closed - under a topic about Purity, there was a discussion on the possibility of pro-creation by non-physical means. During that discussion, Bkry advanced the view that it was quite possible and proceeded to describe in an almost clinical manner the normal psychological process of attraction between a man and a woman with its attendant physiological reactions in the human body. This, she said would result in procreation without physical intercourse. Not convincing - though I've read passing comments on it elsewhere outside of BK literature. It is difficult to appreciate what is essentially wrong in the sexual expression of Love. The problem seems to be that in paths like the BKs there is no distinction made between Love and Lust. All sexual arousal is considered lust. For the same reason (tunneled vision) that we cannot now appreciate the limitations of a 5000 year cycle and other aspects of BK doctrine, it is difficult to see what is wrong with human love. To describe the sexual expression of love between a man and a woman as "animalistic" is a distortion. Some spiritual paths teach this but there are others that teach just the opposite in both Eastern and Western cultures. In India, the art of sexual love is itself considered a path to transcendence. [I think Hanuman has been exploring this] In the Western tradition, the Russian mystic Ouspensky describes several categories of Man, each of whom has a more advanced and refined level of sexuality. To categorically condemn and dismiss sexual love as trash is a surprisingly narrow perspective. Those who have the experience of a tender kiss or who have made love as an expression of sincere, tender emotions would understand clearly that the "animalistic" perspective is very prejudiced. This is a very one dimensional view of the passion of love. One piece of literature that comes to mind as a example of relating the emotional and spiritual aspects of love to the physical is Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha based on the life of the Buddha (or the 'carrier soul' for the Buddha, if you wish). It is beautifully portrayed in the 1972 film starring Shashi Kapoor. [The video or DVD should be available.] The culture of India seems to understand this complexity very well. The clearest overall perspective I've read so far on this is from Andrew Harvey's The Essential Mystics sub-titled "The Soul's Journey into Truth". In a chapter on Hinduism - The Way of Presence he remarks:
Quote:
Hinduism acknowledges the differences in people's personalities and temperaments and takes a marvelously and ripely practical attitude to attaining union with the Atman-Brahman. Four main paths of yoga ("union with God") were gradually developed to suit different ways of imagining, approaching, and enacting the divine: jnana yoga, the path to the transcendent through knowledge; bhakti yoga, the path of devotion, usually to a "personal" god; raja yoga, the path of royal (raj) reintegration through psychophysical exercises; and karma yoga, the path of works and action dedicated selflessly to the Supreme.
The essence of these things were told to us in the 7 days course but perhaps now we can appreciate them differently in a post-gyan life. ... snip ... I share all of this to say that when we are under a heavy influence (or have suffered tremendously from it) we can say some insensitive things like children are a humbug or an unnecessary distraction. In a tunnelled vision this would appear to be so, but we have emerged from the tunnel (even if into an apparent wilderness or another pre-gyan maze) and we are still blessed with compassion. Bansy is right about our responsibility. A child can become a jewel and our gift to humanity, or a scourge. It is we who determine this based on the contents of our hearts.
howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland |
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Brahmins Who Love Too Much [aka Sex, Lies and Murli Song |
gyaniwasi wrote:
It is difficult to appreciate what is essentially wrong in the sexual expression of Love. The problem seems to be that in paths like the BKs there is no distinction made between Love and Lust. All sexual arousal is considered lust....it is difficult to see what is wrong with human love.
i agree heartily. The BK position on celibacy always bothered me - after a failed second marriage, i had already decided to be celibate, a short while before i encountered the BKs, so their requirement for celibacy was not the slightest problem for me at the time. Initially i found the freedom from sex-as-an-issue in male-female interaction (i am not gay, but similar logic would apply) to be liberating - i loved the absense of the 'primary' and exclusive relationship that exists between lovers - it seemed possible to have many female friends without any issues arising of conquest, possession, jealousy or whatever. It took me back to my childhood when i grew up with two sisters, and i felt i was entering a new golden world of inter-personal relationships where there were none of the divisive problems of pairing off - only loving friendship, with gender not being an issue. Sadly the initial intoxication wore off and i began to see what was really there - in place of a loving relationship with one other person we were given cold and detached relationships with many - the love i had been experiencing from others, it seemed, was actually taboo, and was duly stamped on (if never quite snuffed out) by the SS. Gradually it emerged that friendship between BKs was 'against the rules'. You are not allowed to be friends with your spiritual brothers and sisters? (still don't get that one). Love for your fellow human beings, even fellow BKs, was frowned on, even pure spiritual love. However, false love and charm was encouraged when it was used to draw people into the BK snare. Initially I had been fooled by this and by sisters and brothers who were breaking the rules, and being loving. Only love for God was allowed. Only friendship with God. Only closeness with God. This is inhuman. Of course BB preaches detachment with love. He had no qualms about hugging his sisters and brothers, about sitting the young sisters on his knee in the early days, about being loving and close to his spiritual family. That natural human approach has been lost - except among the top SS themselves - they are allowed to be thick as thieves with each other, hug when they meet etc. The sisters in general seemed to be given some lattitude to display affection towards each other - but brothers were expected to be cold and detached at all times, with everyone. BB preaches about the sword of lust - and this is mis-interpreted as meaning that any expression of love is a sin. There seemed to be no conception whatever of the possibilty of physical closeness as part of a pure loving relationship. For me the key thing was not what you did but the thoughts behind it. I can conceive of, indeed have experienced a few blissful instances of, two human beings making love physically in spiritual awareness - no awareness of the sexual mechanics of the process, but lost in love and happiness. This to me is how love will be made in paradise. Is this a worse thing than cold detachment? There is a very unhealthy dose of Anglo-Indian prudishness in the cold and sterile BK approach. I found the atttudes in the UK far worse than the attitudes in India, but there is a problem throughout the BK culture. It is dehumanising. Even the very reasoning for celibacy in the BKs is suspect - the traditional Indian reasons for celibacy in a spiritual path is to conserve vital energies so these can be chanelled towards spiritual purposes. But I always got the impression that the BK approach to celibacy was focussed on avoiding attachment - on avoiding the issue rather than dealing with it. This had been my (pre-BK) reason for my own celibacy - ironically the BK spiritual training (the shrimat of BapDada not the parmat of the BKWSU) taught me that my reasoning was false, and based on fear - to conquer a weakness you must face it. So - we were told we had to ditch our iron-age sanskars, and adopt golden-aged sanskars. The deities of the golden age pair off in loving couples with no jealousy or possesiveness, and have close friendships with love for all fellow beings. When I questioned how segregation by gender, and physical detachment, and avoidance of friendship, would make us golden aged, i was told essentially that we can not trust ourselves to be golden aged. In other words we should be scared of our selves. The BK culture is riddled with fear and guilt and insecurity and this results in a complete failure to realistically address the issue of celibacy. As a brother there you are expected to just shut off your sexual drive, with absolutely no training or information on how to do this, no practical help whatsoever - the subject is taboo - you ARE taught to see your body as a dirty disgusting thing that you should have as little to do with as possible. The result has been for me, that i find the 'iron aged' world i have returned to, to be more 'golden aged' than the BK world, with regard to relationships with our fellow beings, and respect for our own physical costumes - out here, love for each other is encouraged, as is physical well-being. Furthermore, the BKs bad example has cured me of the fear-based attitude that celibacy is the best way to deal with attachment.
Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 |
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: |
I liked very much the wise words of Gyaniwasi and Howiemac. I donīt have much to say, but I would like to share some experiences. I had great friends in BK. I missed them and the pure relashionship we had. Once, some BKs decided to play a game between brothers and sisters from bhawans and the center. It was a naíve game, with angels, virtues and gifts. But it was great for our enthusiasm and spiritual behavior. Everything was ok, but one day, the instrument interrupted our meeting full of anger and said we are not there to play games and to have friends Of course she has problems with anger and this behavior was not unusual for her. But shocked us because we were doing something very spiritual and pure.
Quote:
Gradually it emerged that friendship between BKs was 'against the rules'. You are not allowed to be friends with your spiritual brothers and sisters? (still don't get that one). Love for your fellow human beings, even fellow BKs, was frowned on, even pure spiritual love. However, false love and charm was encouraged when it was used to draw people into the BK snare. Initially I had been fooled by this and by sisters and brothers who were breaking the rules, and being loving. Only love for God was allowed. Only friendship with God. Only closeness with God. This is inhuman.
I have another history about friendship. I lived in shakti bhawan with a sister M.. We were great friends (She is a BK yet and we are friends yet). Some brahmins, most of them living in the center, became to make jokes about our friendship. It was very bad and I became really upset with them. Well, when I told the instrument I felt with love for a guy and I was confused about stay in RY, she said to me: "Oh, but you donīt know this guy. If you tell me you are leaving BK to get married with M. (that sister who lives with me in shakti bhawan) I could understand." This is a good example about the confusion between love and lust, no?
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Brahmins Who Love Too Much [aka Sex, Lies and Murli Song |
howiemac wrote:
Sadly the initial intoxication wore off and i began to see what was really there - in place of a loving relationship with one other person we were given cold and detached relationships with many - the love i had been experiencing from others, it seemed, was actually taboo, and was duly stamped on (if never quite snuffed out) by the SS. Gradually it emerged that friendship between BKs was 'against the rules'. You are not allowed to be friends with your spiritual brothers and sisters? (still don't get that one). Love for your fellow human beings, even fellow BKs, was frowned on, even pure spiritual love. However, false love and charm was encouraged when it was used to draw people into the BK snare. Initially I had been fooled by this and by sisters and brothers who were breaking the rules, and being loving. Only love for God was allowed. Only friendship with God. Only closeness with God. ....There is a very unhealthy dose of Anglo-Indian prudishness in the cold and sterile BK approach. I found the atttudes in the UK far worse than the attitudes in India, but there is a problem throughout the BK culture. It is dehumanising.
Wow. That was great howiemac. You've elucidated very well the niggling suspicions i had from the very beginning about the reasons for these "rules". I have/had a friend who got in deep with the BKs and now has cut off all contact - which is just what I told him a long time ago that he would be required by the organisation to do - but he denied that was the case at the time.
howiemac wrote:
So - we were told we had to ditch our iron-age sanskars, and adopt golden-aged sanskars. The deities of the golden age pair off in loving couples with no jealousy or possesiveness, and have close friendships with love for all fellow beings. When I questioned how segregation by gender, and physical detachment, and avoidance of friendship, would make us golden aged, i was told essentially that we can not trust ourselves to be golden aged. In other words we should be scared of our selves. The BK culture is riddled with fear and guilt and insecurity and this results in a complete failure to realistically address the issue of celibacy. As a brother there you are expected to just shut off your sexual drive, with absolutely no training or information on how to do this, no practical help whatsoever - the subject is taboo - you ARE taught to see your body as a dirty disgusting thing that you should have as little to do with as possible.
Oh yeah, musn't trust your own self/judgements ^^This also happened to the same friend - (he is naturally probably quite, uh passionate by nature lol - hmm maybe its more of a 'guy' thing ), and I watched as he forced and forced himself to "cut off" the "impure" part of himself for fear of not gaining a "higher stage" a good way to encourage hang-ups even in those who had none to begin with
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