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Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Help Please |
Can anyone help please? I have a friend who left the BKs 5 years ago who is suffering from what seems like post traumatic stress disorder. I do not feel that way myself so it is difficult for me to know how to help. I was never so committed or surrendered as my friend. I always keep myself free and never really join any institution fully. The BKs were not the first experience I had of this kind, so I went in with my eyes open and came out freely and easily. The symptoms of my friend are of feeling that trauma and overwork is a necessity in life and finding it very difficult to detach from the institution of the BKs. My friend still meditates but has gone as far away from the BKs as possible. Even so there is still great unhappiness after all those years of being XBK. My friend does not have a computer. Any ideas or questions anyone? P.S. Thankyou administrator for allowing me to post here. Sam
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: I am sure others will help. |
Sam, Your friend may go to a library and set up an e-mail account on www.yahoo.com for free and join the chat. Most libraries have free internet access for folks without a computer. Please see if Joel will offer the names of some good books for your friend. It is hard for some to go on and build their lives with the sense of pending destruction, feeling they are not worthy and keeping it all to them selves. Your friend is lucky to have you…you are a link to crossing over. I used to see my husband talking to EXBKs and wondered why they sought him out? Only other EXBKS know what all is going on...and thus, able to help one another through some of these thoughts. Funny thing is you can have relapses... If you keep the line open...... You soon forget all the hard work you did to cross over.... And yes, it is nice that the Admin has this private place to talk about private issues. Funny that you mention the post traumatic stress disorder as that is my belief in post Gyan folks. The work to undo the programming is quite a job...
Quote:
I have a friend who left the BKs 5 years ago who is suffering from what seems like post traumatic stress disorder.
Maybe you can read some posts to your friend or relay some of the difficulties that others have had on a one to one basis. I often relay issues to my husband and it opens up the line of communication on BK issues. I have learned many things by doing this. I am sure others will help. Regards, Tete
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: psychotherapy |
Thanks Tete. Yes, my friend has tried all sorts of psychotherapy to try to break the link but none of the therapists know what she is talking about. Only an XBK will have that understanding. There are no libraries where she lives - she has really gone into hiding! Perhaps the books will help if I can find out from Joel what they are. Sam.
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Re: psychotherapy |
Sam wrote:
Thanks Tete. Yes, my friend has tried all sorts of psychotherapy to try to break the link but none of the therapists know what she is talking about. Only an XBK will have that understanding. There are no libraries where she lives - she has really gone into hiding! Perhaps the books will help if I can find out from Joel what they are. Sam.
Hi Sam, Don't know which books you mean. A quick search for 'Joel' and 'book' showed The Beak of the Finch which is great science writing about evidence for evolution. Another I've mentioned here is The Guru Papers, Masks of Authoritarian Power not always easy reading, but excellent explanations of how a religious group weakens followers' ability to judge for themselves by teaching them to consider themselves children, and by--through celibacy--avoiding any adult bonding except with the Guru. There are great lectures entitled "The Compulsion to Recreate and Overcome Childhood Hurts" and "Love, Eros and Sex" and a number of other outstandingly lucid expositions in a book of material channeled by Eva Pierrakos entitled The Pathwork of Self Transformation that has been helpful to me, although I realized these teachings much more fully through a therapy relationship than I was able to achieve through years of working on my own. Good luck helping your ex-BK friend. You wrote about wanting to help in one of your first posts. It's a difficult relationship to be in. Professional therapists have an advantage in that they are trained to recognize what is the line between helping a person and creating a new pattern of dependence. I think that a skilled therapist need not know all about BKs to be able to help your friend, if she is sufficiently open to explain about herself. --Joel
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
Joel, Thankyou for your private message. I don't know how to quote or link from here but the books I am asking about are mentioned in the message from Tete in this topic. Sam.
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: If you have left or are thinking of leaving the BKs... |
Sam wrote:
Joel, Thankyou for your private message. I don't know how to quote or link from here but the books I am asking about are mentioned in the message from Tete in this topic. Sam.
Perhaps we could put our heads/fingers together and create a list of resources for recovering ex-BKs: books, web resources on cults/depression/suicide, perhaps a collection of personal stories from this forum, perhaps a subset of 'classic posts' and selected others, that are particularly revealing of the kinds of conflicts involved in leaving BKs. Something like a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list... "if you have left or are thinking of leaving the BKs, look here first" type of thing. I'm sure that our Administrator would consider any such proposals, or at least point to such resources on another site.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: Information |
Joel, I agree with you on this. I always read most posts (some times 2-3 times), but then again I am a fast reader and often take notes, keep a little file on information and log in every thing that seems of interest or possible help to me. I think it did take me some time to figure out a host of things, save links to the three EXBKS that have their material (complete version) on sites, find the books in posts etc. I just remembered that you post books, Paul posts cult sites, as does Atma. Gyaniwasi is more of the deep interspective look on the BK experience etc. Howie helps me understand things that are a little beyond my little head here. I will some times ask him in private to explain a concept when I research it and still can't make sense of it. The dictionary has been a great source of information to me. So, yes it would help to sort out the books, sites and other information. This would have to be in the forum open to the public for viewing. People are shy...including me. Regards, Tete
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: resource library |
Yes Joel that is a great idea. We will have to work on it together. Sam Tete I have replied to your private message Sam
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
Hi Sam, Here's the first paragraph of a post I did long ago that your friend might identify with. It helps to know that there are others right in there with you. Maybe you can copy the post and share it with your friend then try to view the film Signs and Wonders with her. You'll see a vivid portrayal of post cult trauma and its attendant factors there.
Quote:
A review of the postings on xbkchat indicates that we exist on a spectrum of Faith ranging from cynical doubt to passionate or naive faith. It is not always easy to recognize or acknowledge ourselves on this spectrum, especially when the atmosphere is sharply discerning and critical. When confronted with contradictions or inconsistencies in the knowledge we tend to wear a blindfold, or shades that make us see those of a different view existing in 'dark light.' At such time we shelter under the umbrella of Faith even when that umbrella may obscure the greater light of an evolving intellect. Faith and surrender are the bedrock of religion but that bedrock can become the very shackle and stone by which we are imprisoned when that religion “fails us.” That is the dilemma of the Cult: to leave is to ‘break faith and fortune’; to surrender unconditionally is to deny oneself the basic right of freedom of choice. I remember that the character Claire, in the film Signs and Wonders, starring James Earl Jones, shown on Exxon’s Masterpiece Theatre a few years ago, beautifully portrayed that point. If you haven’t seen it then check it out.
Regards, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
The title of the post is "Who is Shiv Baba? A Question of Faith". Sorry about the omission Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: film |
gyaniwasi I have heard about this film. I must get it. Thankyou for your helpful input. Luckily I have found a psychotherapist who is a sort of half BK (more labels! ) and she has agreed to help my anonymous friend to break the contracts she made with the BKs. I think the main problem has been the chronic overworking. Institutions of this type seem to attract workaholics. I will keep you posted. Love, Sam.
primal.logic Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 16 |
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:41 am Post subject: your friend may have a specific 'problem' |
Hi Sam. I wholly identify with your friend having been a 'surrendered instrument" for most of the 15 years I was in the Bks - when I left I threw the baby out with the bathwater and was very much in the zone of post traumatic stress disorder. I was hideously confused and suicidal for years. The discovery I ultimately made I feel is a huge revelation for all Bks and this may be the opportunity to raise it - where to start? - as I mentioned in a previous discussion, it is human nature to seek an explanation of ourselves and the world around us. This is the essence of our survival instinct - we need to know in order to feel secure. So when we stumble across the Bks we get all the explanation we could hope for - be it right or wrong - and we buy into it and adopt it as our own personal explanation. Thus we become emotionally intwined with the Bks - our entire sence of self has been given to us buy them, however much we 'churn' it and think we have made it our own. Our identity is ultimately owned by them. So when we leave, we leave the basis of our being behind - who we believe we are. So then who are we? We have to go back to the drawing board and find a new explanation whilst still under the influence of a doctrine and possibly burdened by guilt and fear. However when a persons ability to process all this is taking an apparently unnatural amount of time, I believe it is because they are unable to come to new rational conclusions about themselves. And in my case it turned out that I am ADHD. And it may be that your friend is in the same boat. For the uninitiated ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. This is a very, very big subject and I intend to open a forum on this, but, put simply I would say about 20 to 30 percent of the western Bk family is ADHD, including some of seniors. And the reason for this is that the explanation of the soul as given by the Bk's is a near perfect description of ADHD (if you didn't know what ADHD is) - if you have grown up ADHD you will be seeking an explanation that is out of the ordinary, that explains why you can be so functional and yet so dysfunctional (pure and impure sanskars) and why you are different (because that is how you always felt). It is generally considered that around 10 percent of the general population is ADHD. That is a LOT of people. And developmental psychology promotes the idea that a human being will only achieve emotional balance (health) when the individual has successfully formed a clear sence of identity. That is what adolesence is all about. Adulthood is achieved when we know who we are. When we leave the Bk's and no longer ascribe to the indentity, we effectively revert to our adolesence. And we are stuck there like a 13 year old in a 40 year old body. Truly horrible. I had previously known about ADHD through my studies but had never associated with it until my psychiatrist (whom gratefully I don't need to see anymore told me about 'hyperfocus'. That is, whilst ADHD people are notoriously easily distracted they have an almost unnatural ability to concentrate. Figure that. The critereon for this is interesting - you cannot get an ADHD person to focus on anything, unless they WANT to, in which case they become very absorbed. Famous people who were/are ADHD include Albert Einstein, Richard Branson, Kerry Packer (Australias richest man when he died recently) and Paul Keating (former Australian Prime Minister). So don't confuse 'disorder' with 'disabled'. ADHD people are generally very practical, highly intelligent, lateral thinkers, very visual and creative. However, they have an innately different map of the world and so are generally at odds with the rest of the population. If anything, it is a social disorder. Many ADHD people will report that they feel most people are slow witted, impractical and boring and don't like socialising as a result. Thus they tend to be loners. When I found out that I was ADHD I looked around and realised that so were ALL of my lokik family (the household from hell) and so were all of my friends. And as I looked further I realised how many Bk's are also ADHD. I have a long list (the benefits of 15 years globetrotting the BK family). Anyway, there is a lot more to be said on this, and I do have resourses but I wasn't expecting to raise this subject just yet. So I'll start a discussion soon. Meantime here are a couple of links: http://www.thomhartmann.com/home-add.shtml and especially http://www.thomhartmann.com/whosorder.shtml Best regards.
Sam Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 47 |
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: ADHD |
Thankyou Primal.logic I had not thought of ADHD. I will look into it. I look forward to reading the discussion you will be starting on ADHD. Thanks for your help. Sam.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
Good post P_L. Much of your theory reminds me of what I've understood of the term "ontological security" which I discussed elsewhere. Your explanation of ADHD sounds very interesting, very essential for us to understand. Makes you wonder, though, what then is normal? Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: I am thankful we have this little private place..... |
P.L., I am curious if you were tested? I know we went that route and tests showed yes it was ADD. The interesting thing is that most ADDH and ADD folks are actually highly intelligent people, very creative; having an above average IQ...had that test too. So, it is really about now learning a way to concentrate (work with the understanding of this uniqueness/adapting/learning the modalities that work best) on the tasks at hand, finding tools to enable those little items that need to be brought to ones attention, diet and family support. There are medications but usually the prior methods should be considered before going that route…just our belief. There should be no shame about this as it is just a condition like many others people live with every day. The most important thing is the willingness to use the tools, methods that enable one to be successful. That said, now throw in the Gyan business into the fray and whala you get quite a soup. One thing to note is that some may be ADD or ADDH and other stuff may well be programming. I say this because I noted that after some one close to me spoke to a member (whom this person knew, respected and saw as BK family ) of the Chat, that this person was able to read unabated for hours as if given permission from a higher source. All I understand is that for what ever reason you (XBKs) can release others of this programming. It is wonderful to me to know that Gyaniwasi, Joel and some others here are "Old Ones" in the sense that having been in it for so long, you still recognize the system of order if you would in "respect/authority/knowledge" and thus able to release others via the spoken or written word. You know that familiar feeling you all have towards one an other……. I am very thankful to the one that provided this service as it was a most kind/selfless act and to others that continue to offer guidance to me. I know of what I speak about as I have shown some here photos of XBKs (with two senior ones participating) doing work with others to get back in tough with “touch”. You know when you come out and you find interactions with others difficult? Touching/interacting with children seems foreign! Getting back those very human instincts that were suppressed for so many years and then arriving into to the “touchy/feely” world and not quite knowing what to do. I can remember my husband picking up a toddler from a four lane road filled with traffic and walking with him arms extended out as if the child was going to bite him. He looked over at me and asked what to do with him. I could see he was not comfortable with the situation but I didn’t intervene and I thought I would let him work it out. He went down several streets, arms extended out as he held him until he found his mother. Later on he began to get comfortable with my nephew as this was the first little baby he had encountered, holding him, feeding him, playing with him, putting him to sleep and letting him slobber (baby kisses) all over him. He will often tell him that he is the first child he “experienced fully” until his child arrived some years later…that exploration continues. So, the idea of one hand extending to guide the other one out is a beautiful thing and does bring true the idea of "FAMILY" you all put your hearts into....one thing that can be kept as a positive thing to carry forth... The ability to love/show love for another human being...in a sense the true act of loving humanity. Regards and thank you for allowing me to play in the secret garden of ideas, Tete Funny that you too mention the post traumatic stress disorder as that is my belief in post Gyan folks. The work to undo the programming is quite a job...
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