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ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: " Knowing God " and long term effects of hypnagog |
Raja Yoga, " Knowing God " and long term effects of hypnagogic states. I would like to raise questions in folk's minds about the long term effects of hypnagogic, mesmeric or soporific states. I am not trying to be eletist here, I am trying to use very specific words for which I give definitions to as reference and for the sake of non-native speakers. I do not have answers for the questions I am asking and I am asking others whether there has been any research published on the subject. In asking that, I am also aware that in the practises of the Brahma Kumaris, there is something more than *just* hypnosis or mesmerism but that appears to be little checking of any relationship between what else is going on and what soporific state practitioners might be experiencing. What is known and witnessed to widely, say, on one hand are the powers of mesmeric suggestion and auto-suggestion; and on the other hand, the very real physiological dangers of depression and too much sleep [ narcolepsy ]. [ As an aside, I'd even be tempted to question in terms of the rates of obesity and muscular atrophy within the Brahma Kumaris the effects of so much sitting and not doing nevermind the social effects of so much sitting, supporting sitting and no doing. I remember a few more the odd huge bottom made out of fit young yogi after a few years of holy communions. Bloating, I experienced it myself, seemed to be quite a useful way of reducing sexual opportunities if not sublimating other desires. You don't get that big without massive inputting. Holy overeating seemed to one of the few sensual releases the Brahma Kumaris sanction; whilst pure, unrelated exercise of any sort is severely looked down upon and something even lower than alternative religious worship, or Bhakti - even though holy eating is traditional within at least Vaishnavite Hinduism ].
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hypnagogic adj. Inducing sleep; soporific. Of, relating to, or occurring in the state of intermediate consciousness preceding sleep: hypnagogic hallucinations.
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mesmerism n. A strong or spellbinding appeal; fascination. Hypnotic induction believed to involve animal magnetism. Hypnotism.
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soporific adj. 1. Causing sleep; tending to cause sleep. 2. Of, relating to, or characterized by sleepiness or lethargy.
As you can see, these three words are all very close and related and I want to relate them to our experiences in the Brahma Kumaris practices. I am starting to loath using the term " Raja Yoga " which I will give a trademark [ tm ] because I have no idea whether what they are doing is Raja Yoga, or whether the Source, Sources or leaders have just usurped the term for the royal, superior sounding " king " of all yogas. Would their practice appeal to individuals in the first place, if it were called ordinary yoga or not even yoga at all; " Psychic Trasmission " or " Channeling Spooks " or " Possession ", for example. I would admit that the idea of practising " The Highest Yoga " was the honeypot that caught me before I have ever heard of Channeling or thought Possession was real. What happens when we sit in Brahma Kumaris practice? The truth is ... we don't actually know. There is no way of actually *knowing*. We can believe, have faith. But not know. Now, at this point, the subtle B.K. ego goes ravashing mad - or it might be exactly right. Of course, we *know*. We are sitting uniting our minds with " God's " mind, the One and Only Supreme Soul, and He is sending us Love and Light. We are leaving our physical bodies and going up to " The Angelic Regions " where we are able to meet " God " incarnate in the Angelic bodily form of Dada Lekraj. Some of us might even be entering Nirvana in a totally disincarnate form. May be. We cant know. It is beyond the realm of knowing. But, the B.K. identity, swears; " I recognise God, My Father ". " I am, and we only, are capable of recognising the One and Only True God, Supreme Soul directly and are uniting with Him ". May be. May be not. I do not actually know. But, the B.K. witnesses, " *Sometimes*, " my stress because we all know it is not always and may be not forever and may be just during a honeymoon period, " I feel so much Love and Light, so I must be right and it must be God ". Perhaps some B.K.'s - the purest andhighest and closest to " God " always feel Love and Light. May be. There are many interesting experiences to be hand practising with the Brahma Kumaris. But what is going on? We cannot tell until Time is over and the young Brahma Kumar or Kumari is demanded to gamble their present years against Eternity. And, specifically, in this case until this World is or is not complete destroyed with the deaths of over 6 Billion human beings not to say a large part of the flora and fauna whose corpses are going to magically disappear. Well, may be also. May be this whole material world is but a thought form dream and it can all be thought away and thought back into creation different. Or may be we were dreaming to believe that. What we can tell is that during this process many similar and same states of mind to hypnosis, mesmerism, sleep, NLP, suggestion and auto-sugestion are entered into indiscriminately and in the hands or presence of individuals that have never actually questioned what it is they are doing or how to deal with issue that arise. Indeed, they are trained mostly *not* to deal. The dim red lights, the soft music, the lilting spoken meditation; the Pavlovian calls to obedience, the repetitive indoctrination. How different are these to hypnosis, mesmerism, sophorism, NLP etc? The truth is, they are not. They are the same. Are Brahma Kumari practioners in some way magically immune to such conditions and conditioning? Or are they *also* being " conditioned " for another purpose? What is that purpose? What we know is that, yes, they / we are being conditioned for another purpose. They are being conditioned to channel the spiritual or psychic energy of another being or beings other than themselves. Whereas as hypnotist, mesmerist, NLP practioner might just be using their own charisma [ frankly, I think a few of the former are actually also psychic, Magi or Channelers ], in Brahma Kumari Revisionist Raja Yoga what you are almost guaranteed to get is the " Unseen Added Extra Ingredient ". The attention within the training is to get out the way so the Unseen Added Extra Ingredient can come through. When all those strangers and dignitaries come and think that they are being stared at my sweet little old ladies, what they are actually getting are torpedoes on a psychic level by something or someone else! What is the difference between 'Spiritual' and 'Psychic' ? These are terms to be debated, often used vaguely. In the West, I would say, that generally, 'psychic' influences are thought of as lower to 'Spiritual'. Mediums, tarot readers, magicians might be psychic, psychic energies might be malevolent. Generally 'Spiritual' is use in a more conceptual, absolute fashion. You don't get so many Great Psychic Leaders. Psychic influences are generally fairly meaningless, seen as dark or even Satanic; but innocent flocks herd about the Great Spiritual Leaders and Great Spiritual Leaders are benign folks like Jesus and Buddha. Or Dadi Janki. Our psychic bodies are generally thought of those attached to emotions and bodily organs; our spiritual bodies to high aspirations, Angelic states and disincarnation. The B.K.s separate the Soul from both these states as the unfolded seed of both within. There is a kind of class system or caste system at play here in the non-physical realms. You see, unlike skeptics, materialists, psychologists, I personally don't believe that something unseen is *not* happening within Brahma Kumari's Revisionist Raja Yoga. That is all just " in the mind " or biochemical in nature. I do believe something *is* going on. I would say I know that it is, I just don't know *what* it is. And I saw little to no evidence that the practioners knew or communicate what was going on beyond the shifting party propaganda. Unlike other traditions where technique and experience were documented and practises monitored, in the B.K.s it was extrememly dumbed down. Do the 7 Day Course, stick around for 6 months or a couple of years and then go off and do it to others. If you burnout, you can come back and stay here for a while if you are a women. If you are a male, tough mostly, get over it. If you get really sick, go mad or have a nervous breakdown; it is none of the institutes problem. Go away. So *do* what? Well, get them opened up and hooked " intravenously " on a psychic level to these other Spooks. Given that one might be The Supreme Spook and the other the Number One Spook on Earth Ever. A " spook " being a disincarnate soul. So what makes the Brahma Kumari's Organisation different from the other individuals Channeling Spooks? Is the word " Channeling " widely understood because - as far as I can see, the B.K.s are selling a channeled product although they *really* don't like to be put in the same category of psychic activity. They are *not* psychics, they are *not* spiritualists, they are *Yogis* and Yogis are above - at least traditionally - psychicism and spiritualism. Even if magical psychicism and spiritualism come their way through practice. And believe me, all sort of psychic powers and spiritualism are practised and attributed to B.K. seniors; from healing, to remote viewing, to astra projection and travel to other realms, to ESP, to giving visions; to name a few. Some are actually true. A lot are Urban Myth. But it all makes it more attractive and interesting, sexy, to the community around them. Re-inforces the faith. Keeps the congregation on its toes if you are being checked up on by an astra projecting Senior Sister; and adds extra subtle inducement because one day, *may be* if you are *good*, you *WILL* get to do that too. Woo! [ But keep quiet about it ]. • What is " channeling "? A fairly precise definition is given in the FAQs at http://www.channeling.net/ where " spirit being " is used instead of the word Spook. or Angel. Or Baba. Or Supreme Soul in the Brahma Kumaris. The Sisters are not doing it themselves. They are Channelers. The Founder was not inspired by " profound visions " or " concepts " as the http://www.bkwsu.com/ website states. The Founder of The Brahma Kumari's Organisation was " Possessed ". His bodily organs and mind was commandeered by one or more - because we do not and cannot know - spook. And, funnily enough, this process was extremely well documented in the biography published about him called " Adi Dev " and other institutional publications. Is that still available or has it be re-edited. from that time onwards, he was a voluntary or involuntary channeling and involuntary channeling or involuntary psychic activity can be problematic.
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Q: What is channeling? Trance channeling: The channel purposely goes into a trance state, looses consciousness, therefore allowing his body to be a temporary host to a spirit being, thus allowing that spirit to speak directly to people. Conscious channeling: The channel learns to distinguish between personal thought and thoughts transmitted from spirit beings, speaks them out loud or writes them down. This method allows the channel to remain in control of his/her own body, however personal thought may color the channeling to some extent. src. channeling.net
Now, to differentiate their activities, the Brahma Kumaris do not like at all words like Spook, Channel, Channeling, Possession, Possessed or even Psychic or Intuition used *AT ALL* relating to their activities. But the mechanism seem to be very much the same, just as the mediational mechanism seem to be very much the same as hypnosis, mesmerism, NLP. Indeed, it could be argued that the B.K.s are intuitive hypnotists and channelers par excellance. We have mostly two legs, two arms, one head and all of humanit operates in a very similar fashion. Do we or Brahma Kumaris operate *that* differently on a psychic or spiritual level from the other human beings? No. And it ought be remembered that in the Brahma Kumari published history, there were times when this or these Possession Spirits possessed not just the founders or leaders but jumped from human being to human being, used different mediums *OR* indeed possessed entire groups of Brahma Kumaris in mesmeric trance states. [ ref. the story of the early BKs dancing on the cliff edge as if they were Gopis around Krishna ]. Activity that makes the events of Salem Witch Trials of 1692 sound like a dull day in Grimsby. Remember, these historically recorded and repeated events have been used to build up the state of trust and belief that is the " Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Organization ", high ranked by the UN, now. So, to go back to the differences between BK Possession and BK Channeling and common or garden Possession and Channeling, what it is? The quality of the Spooks involved? Or the quality of the Possession? The main problem being with Possession and Channeling is the sheer and utter unaccountability of the Possessing or Channeling " Entities ". As some of you might know - and those current B.K.s, sociologist or cult bashers that have not been frightened off or freak out entirely by now read - these Possessing or Channeling " Entities " have a habit of claiming to be all or anything you can imagine; from other realms, other planets, other times such as Atlantis, to know Jesus personally, to be Angels, ArchAngels, Spacemen, Tibetan Ascended Masters, Medieval Masters, the Virgin Mary [ lots of Virigin Marys], Verging on the Ridiculous, Ancient Pharoahs; you name it, if someone has thought about it - and few new that have not been thought of before - there will be one channeling your way soon. It has to be admitted, few believe themselves to be The God or say they are *The* One and Only Supreme Soul above all. And few pull together such large following or supporting organisation as the BKs. Few in history have become so practical and potentially benign. But they are all unaccountable. It is impossible to know what they are really. There was a very good study of a few cases published called " Hungry Ghosts " by Joe Fisher worthing studying. Seemingly *NONE* of them under the rare close scrutiny that Joe Fisher gave them were reliably consistent or even honest. [ http://www.paraview.com/fisher/ ]E ither they were inevitably deluding or even deluded. Unfortunately, for all the peace, love and light surrounding Source, or Sources, of the Brahma Kumaris those are qualities not entirely present in the Source nor the practise or a seemingly willful delusion [ End of the World dates, human population ] entire lacking. Which is where I, personally ask, " Well, what is going on here then? I demand better of my Supreme Soul! " Another Channeled Entity or Hungry Ghost, a deluded soul; albeit a very, very good and enllightened one? Like the Tibetans say, " just because they are dead does not mean they are enlightened ". Do we have a Master or Demi-God that has just overcooked a little or do we have the real thing? Only time will tell. One of the other similarities of this or these Shiva spook or spooks is the ability - and necessity - over time to assimilate external influences from the world and community about it. Reference, Shiva spook's incorporation of other religions when individuals form those religions came to join the community right down to his " sampling " of Walt Disney and Mickey Mouse in scritpures. Does God watch cartoons in heaven? Does he pay his license fees? Or was it just psychic absorbtion? The problem is with all the magical Phenominalism, that is much more interesting and entertaining than ordinary mundane life, and way above most individuals potential ken. One iota of mystery and human discrimination goes completely out of the window. These mercurial phenomena are probably beyond our individual conception all together and hardly subject at all to imperical study. The mouse can only understand the elephant in terms of its own mouseness, because mouseness is all that it has ever experienced. So, now, to return to where I started; In the meanwhile, whilst all this is going on around us what is happening? We are induced into a hypnagogic, mesmeric or soporific state - which have pronounced and increasing neural, physiological and biochemical implications - by the meditiation environment and kept there for long regular period of time. What is happening to us? Putting aside our bodies and brains and the effect upon them, our psychic or even spiritual bodies are opened, our psychic armour dropped. And these unknowable souls, spirits, spooks, entities connect deeply, create cathexes with us. • Are they giving or taking? • Is the bliss, one certainly experiences, a drug a bit like the parsite's bite which is anaesthetises first before it drinks and leaves its poison? • How does this relate to our understanding of cathexing, chakras or psychic cording? • Have we become the bio-psychic battery power for some psychic " The Matrix ", keeping the souls Shiva, Brahma and others afloat in some psychic heaven? • Or is it exactly how they say it is only they have to keep changing things or delude us because deluding human monkeys is the only way to make them do good and get better. Evolve. I wish I knew.[/quote]
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: |
Good posting ex-l, though I've had time just to read them quickly and you've chosen a somewhat rambling style. This one reminds me of Paul's "bottom line" post under the xbk-only forum. He should be quite interested in your views. From time to time over the years I've mused on the possibility of some 'elevated soul' expressing itself through Dada Lekraj but could never quite understand the repeated assertion of being "The Supreme Soul" ... just didn't seem to fit with the generally benevolent thrust of the teaching coupled with the anomalies. I think what is happening also is the continuing consolidation of an egregore or meme that contributes and supports much psychic energy to the group. Innocent practitioners contribute to this because they experience benefits from that energy without realising the "soporification" of their true or potential personalities. That true personality is subsumed, or voluntarily sacrificed as an act of surrender, then "blessed" as a noble and elevated act by the superiors. As we have observed, however, the big question is: does the 'means' justify the declared 'ends' of moral upliftment and spiritual "purification"? Are we really transformed or are we merely in a soporific state sleepwalking in 'service'? The latter is quite a valid possibility - to put it mildly - but the other question is: what percentage of BKs are in that 'automatic drive' and how many are truly "awake spiritually"? Would be interesting to see what other bona fide xbks think ... _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:21 am Post subject: University of Farce |
gyaniwasi wrote:
Good posting ex-l, though I've had time just to read them quickly and you've chosen a somewhat rambling style. I think what is happening also is the continuing consolidation of an egregore or meme that contributes and supports much psychic energy to the group. Innocent practitioners contribute to this because they experience benefits from that energy without realising the "soporification" of their true or potential personalities. Are we really transformed or are we merely in a soporific state sleepwalking in 'service'? ...
Thanks, and I take your criticism of my rambling style as fair. I must try and address it but to an extent, it is all " work in progress " and I am thinking aloud. I would like to post a couple of definitions or references to egregore for folks as it is a pretty esoteric word ...
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Gaetan Delaforgem from a Gnosis article, "The Templar Tradition: yesterday and today": ..."An egregore is a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose. Whenever people gather together to do something and egregore is formed, but unless an attempt is made to maintain it deliberately it will dissipate rather quickly. However if the people wish to maintain it and know the techniques of how to do so, the egregore will continue to grow in strength and can last for centuries. An egregore has the characteristic of having an effectiveness greater than the mere sum of its individual members. It continuously interacts with its members, influencing them and being influenced by them. The interaction works positively by stimulating and assisting its members but only as long as they behave and act in line with its original aim. It will stimulate both individually and collectively all those faculties in the group which will permit the realization of the objectives of its original program. If this process is continued a long time the egregore will take on a kind of life of its own, and can become so strong that even if all its members should die, it would continue to exist on the inner dimensions and can be contacted even centuries later by a group of people prepared to live the lives of the original founders, particularly if they are willing to provide the initial input of energy to get it going again. If the egregore is concerned with spiritual or esoteric activities its influence will be even greater. People who discover the keys can tap in on a powerful egregore representing, for example, a spiritual or esoteric tradition, will, if they follow the line described above by activating and maintaining such an egregore, obtain access to the abilities, knowledge, and drive of all that has been accumulated in that egregore since its beginnings. A group or order which manages to do this can, with a clear conscience, claim to be an authentic order of the tradition represented by that egregore. In my view this is the only yardstick by which a genuine order should be measured."
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from EE Rehmus' Magician's Dictionary: EGREGORS ; Watchers, thought-form entities created by visualization, ritual and such. They come in collective groups. They are somewhat like angels, except that they are relatively mindless and quite willing to follow orders. Some UFOs may be egregores.
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What is an egregore? It is the psychic and astral entity of a group. All members of a group, a family, a club, a political party, a religion or even a country, are psychically included in the egregore of the organization to which they belong. Of course, each of us belongs to several egregores at once. Therefore, each individual who is involved in a group receives the influences of the egregores, that is the astral counterpart of the group, in his psyche. This process is unconscious. The resulting drawbacks are, first, some perturbating psychic influences in the majority of cases, and second, a restriction of inner freedom. It is impossible to free oneself from certain egregores, for example the egregores of the country you live in. However, we should free ourselves from all egregores which are not essential. An egregore actually grows by drawing support from the members which constitute it who, in turn, through their repeated actions vivify it, somehow helping it to maintain its power. For a beginner, this is where the danger lies, all the more because of the tendency of man to seek protection, the price of which is often a loss of freedom.
My personal experiences of trying to ask, question or discuss such matters with the S.S. , e.g. Janki, Sudesh [ forget it! ] etc. is that either they have not a clue to the degree of not being able to understand the question, or if they were aware of it, did not want to discuss publically nor for it to be a subject of group consideration AT ALL. I also tried to raise the issue of how spiritual empowerment came out through their practise. Again, it was just dismissed offhand as a typically ridiculuous Western bit of intellectualism whilst the child or drug-like state of consciousness was encouraged or forced. It only takes one, two, or three rebuffs and group humilitations from a senior to a student for the student to give up asking important questions. Quite honestly, it makes a farce of the old name " Brahma Kumari World Spiritual University " when truly earnest spiritual or philosphical discussion, and reference to other schools of thought and traditions is constantly dismissed, as it is. You raise a very important point at the end. In my opinion, it should be the responsibility of a true spiritual teacher or guide to ensure the stundent or follower avoids remaining in the soporific state. Any encouragement to remain in the soporific state has to be irresponsible - or even malicious. The addition point I would suggest needs to remain in this equation would be the involvement not just of one spiritual guide/source/entity, nor a group level of consciousness, *but* groups of spiritual entities guiding and feeding off what is being created.
assandhari Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk |
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: egregore |
Great research Ex-London and, 'May the Force be with you'. _________________ the universe... a hall of mirrors....reflecting, inner beauty..
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
ex-london wrote:
Quote:
In my opinion, it should be the responsibility of a true spiritual teacher or guide to ensure the stundent or follower avoids remaining in the soporific state. Any encouragement to remain in the soporific state has to be irresponsible - or even malicious.
I fully agree here, although in the case of many BKs it might be "victims" in a blissfully ignorant soporofic state creating even more victims! You also said:
Quote:
The addition point I would suggest needs to remain in this equation would be the involvement not just of one spiritual guide/source/entity, nor a group level of consciousness, *but* groups of spiritual entities guiding and feeding off what is being created.
The idea a entities "feeding off" the psychic energy of others was discussed in depth by another writer whose name I can't now recall (David Icke, think) but he thinks it's more like aliens who have had a long history of interaction with the Earth. [Hanuman might be interested in hearing that he thinks the royal blood of the British and French are involved in this through the Merovignian dynasty (Errol, take note )] _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
gyaniwasi wrote:
The idea a entities "feeding off" the psychic energy of others was discussed in depth by another writer whose name I can't now recall (David Icke, think) but he thinks it's more like aliens who have had a long history of interaction with the Earth. [Hanuman might be interested in hearing that he thinks the royal blood of the British and French are involved in this through the Merovignian dynasty (Errol, take note )]
I appreciate the playful wink in this last statement but I don't appreciate the connection with David Icke. I wish that he would be a little bit more discriminatory with the supernatural / conspiracy stew he brews up. I am not sure he has any original ideas or can have done any primary research but is just on a landgrab of all and any geewhiz idea out there. In my opinion, sadly, those things that are true are discredited by association with others that are entirely whacked out. Is there not a danger that he is in love with the public eye? Edward Heath and the Duke of Edinburgh as child eating morphing Alien Lizards ... well, may be. I'll have one of whatever he is drinking! Now, if he had said that on a psychic or metaphorical level, their aura where like that of lizards - as in hard protective skins, well armoured, cold blooded, ruthless and changeable - well then, yes, one could see where he was coming from. Likewise with his take on " Alien " this or that. Again, if it was taken on a psychic or metaphorical level, one might be heading in the right direction. But to state things was concrete truths when you have the public eye and an ability to perform or communicate is dangerous when you dont actually know. Its a terrible liability. I will try and dig out original sources and would encourage folks to go find truths from more discrete and quiet sources. The concept of " Hungry Ghosts ", or indeed the terminology is taken from the Tibetan tradition but has parallels in the Western Traditions. I am more interested in other ex-Brahma Kumaris own intuitions regards what was or is going on. Thanks.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
Hey ex-l, my intention wasn't to suggest that the BKs have alien connections! I hope you didn't think so. I was merely making an allusion to a similar idea. Just for the records though, I do believe there's extra-terrestrial life out there. What they're up to I'm not sure. And yes, I too am also interested in what others have to say. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
assandhari Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk |
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: Help is at hand.... |
ex-london wrote:
Quote:
So, now, to return to where I started; In the meanwhile, whilst all this is going on around us what is happening? We are induced into a hypnagogic, mesmeric or soporific state - which have pronounced and increasing neural, physiological and biochemical implications - by the meditiation environment and kept there for long regular period of time. What is happening to us? Putting aside our bodies and brains and the effect upon them, our psychic or even spiritual bodies are opened, our psychic armour dropped. And these unknowable souls, spirits, spooks, entities connect deeply, create cathexes with us. • Are they giving or taking? • Is the bliss, one certainly experiences, a drug a bit like the parsite's bite which is anaesthetises first before it drinks and leaves its poison? • How does this relate to our understanding of cathexing, chakras or psychic cording? • Have we become the bio-psychic battery power for some psychic " The Matrix ", keeping the souls Shiva, Brahma and others afloat in some psychic heaven? • Or is it exactly how they say it is only they have to keep changing things or delude us because deluding human monkeys is the only way to make them do good and get better. Evolve. I wish I knew
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wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England |
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:28 pm Post subject: " Knowing God " and long term effects of hypnagog |
Dear Ex-London, I find the questions you raised to be relevant and do bring one to have cause for re-evaluation. I remember taking abnormal psychology and exploring these very subjects. I also studied hypnosis in the eighties, but I never had full exposure to the hypnotic BK trances until very recently and not in their full spectrum. I think the ones I attended were for PR value and not the full effect. You raise some interesting topics, ones that most folks would fail to address for fear of ridicule or worse. The power of hypnosis is great and the effects on ones mind are some times positive and some times not. I once put myself in trance to avoid pain, rapidly and for a great purpose. I was to have a C-section, for a premature delivery, when it became apparent that that my baby was in distress I had to make a choice. The medication had not taken affect and my baby’s heart rate was dropping. I called my doctor closer to me and asked that he proceed. He was reluctant and I assured him I would be fine. As he cut I was aware of it, could sense the pulling, but not the pain. At one point he stopped as he had reservation (I imagine my brother video taping the event didn't help) and I asked that he continue. I was calm, aware of my breathing and at peace. I simply told myself there was no severe pain or small pain. Pain was just pain, thereby mentally disconnecting the pain threshold. So, I do appreciate your in depth look into things that the average person would fail to dare look at. Are these things possible? How? Why? I was never aware and certainly there are no books available to explain to folks what belief system exist within the BK world. I learn a little at a time by reading all the wonderful posting of all of the members and I am honored that you speak honestly and without reservations. You speak from the heart, your soul and expose things that you have questioned in your mind. That is truly a gift. I found your posting refreshing and honest. You posed many good questions and gave good insight. I did have to read it twice to full grasp some of the points more clearly, but I am all the better for it. Regards, Tete
zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 |
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
I must admit, when during the 7-week Intro course, the moment the "channelling/posession" part of the Baba-life-story came up, I thought "Uh-oh, what's going on here??" To my wry chagrin now, I allowed myself to be influenced by the significant (as I felt) BK peer-pressure to just try at all costs to accept 'Baba' and not to worry further about questions. All would come if only I would believe! Something I could not do with any type of clear conscience You are making a lot of excellent points which concerned me also for a long time, ex-london. I just wish I could do real justice to them in reply
daviniamaher1 Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10 |
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
[quote]Which is where I, personally ask, " Well, what is going on here then? I demand better of my Supreme Soul! This is one of the best bit that anyone can write it is not long yet it says it all whenever questions are asked they should be answered honestly I always found it odd that senior sisters came up with some really odd answers which only confuse rather than just saying that they did not know We truly can only demand all answers from the Supreme Soul
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: confusion rather than honesty |
daviniamaher1 wrote:
I always found it odd that senior sisters came up with some really odd answers which only confuse rather than just saying that they did not know.
I second this wholeheartedly. I saw it happen from fairly well meant innocent juniors - The P.P.s [ the Pretty Pollies ] right through to the Jankis and Sudeshs - The S.S. [ Senior Sisters ]. And I sensed the disapproval both from the group and individual of pressing them for any better answer. It was just much easier to put down the " western mind ". But I think it is a very traditional "Hindu thing"; the obtuse mystical fortune cookie approach to spirituality, the "cosmic delivery", the love of repeating simplistic child-like rhymes as " depth ". Now and again, in small groups mostly, Jayanti would have a go at good logical even original intelligent thought but, in my opinion, it did not seem to be sanctioned or encouraged. It was only when she had, by chance, some free reign amongst peers of a similar age. I thought she had a good intellect, felt akin to Westerners and was having genuine and interesting " spiritual / psychic " experiences. Those old " trance message " journeys were not faked, whatever they were.
daviniamaher1 Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10 |
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject: |
Dadi Gulzar's trance messages have a ring of truth about them the others ,I found ,I had to pinch myself as some actually seem as they had been orchestrated for instance if some one had passed away especially if they are well off. I could be wrong.Please do put me right if I am wrong but that is the impression I was left with sometimes. There are many things that we don't understand but some things just do leave such an impression that cannot be dismissed
jamesy Joined: 09 Oct 2005 Posts: 19 |
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: egregore soporific or super sensuous |
Hi all Thanks for the 'egregore' concept, interesting and a helpful explanation for the frustration folk often encounter usually when they sense it's all starting to just slip away. I remember a most surreal 15 minutes of Madhuban with Little Mohini in trance and morphing into a dancin' and a prancin' baby Krishna. Looking around me I could see that Krishna's coming just a tad early provoked reactions right across the emotional spectrum. Even more intriguing though was post trance analysis, everything from complete spoof, to invoking her own 'golden aged naughty child stage' to authentic possession by Krishna in waiting. It seemed freedom of opinion was just dandy, that there was little concern to provide an authentic explanation and frankly pretty much nobody (even those who seemed fair mortified by it at the time) felt a desperate urge to get to the bottom of it anyway! I guess the BK egregore would be at it’s most potent in Madhuban. I mean looking back, even if some aspects of the philosophy were no longer adding up quite so neatly, when I actually got out there, I was curious to find myself pretty half hearted in trying to track down any sort of intellectual appeasement. – In truth once arrived, as usual all I really wanted was to experience even a little of the feelings that I had on my original visit. Years later, Jagdish hosting a small gathering and reflecting on the time when BapDada held personal meetings. I asked him what he made of the considerable and exclusive time BD would give to visiting I.P's who had no recognition of who they were meeting, and who have not subsequently. Jagdish, rare amongst his peers always keen to tell it as it is, appeared happy to give me his opinion on the matter, and encouraged I made further attempts to pursue what I felt was an interesting line of enquiry. Clearly not that interesting though, in no time an interpreter between myself and Jaggers (not at his bidding) and a sudden enthusiasm for a whole raft of the personal dharna type stock standard questions to be considered. It's tempting to agree with ex-L that my dogged pursuit of what for some may have seemed irrelevant provoked a quite overt group put-down. But though I certainly recognize his frustration, I really can’t say I felt/saw any obvious source of even mild contempt. Maybe it was simply that I was no longer part of the group egregore, physical proximity but psychic wise now barking up another tree altogether. Interesting character Jagdish, very prominent in the mid-80’s, virtual one-man literature dept at the time. Seemed to have dedicated his energy to making God accessible to western science in all its guises, and apparently with full blessings of the Senior Sisters. I remember a huge volume finally being released, the answer to everything you’d ever wanted to ask the Dadi’s but knew it was a waste of time asking sort of thing. Maybe it was the sheer size of the thing as much as what was inside, but in any event it didn’t set the yagya on fire and thereafter old Jagdish, to me anyway, became a lot more peripheral. But it could also be that in his fervor to prove it all to the rational mind, he inadvertently moved well outside the natural boundaries of the BK egregore? God, I’m fair warming to this word now aren’t I? Hmm..just paused to read that lot thro, and it may not smack you in the face, but I think what I’m trying to say is that the B.K. egregore is something that if you are at all open to it, strongly favors the experiential over the intellectual. I was certainly very open to it in the mid 80’s as it seemed were many of my contempories. Definitely completely out with the rational, but I don’t think I encountered it as hypnagogic/soporific, infact ‘super sensuous’ to use an old bk adjective fits the bill nicely, heightened awareness turning the most mundane into the extraordinary. Sadly my ability to tune in began to decrease within months of my first visit to Madhban and as the extraordinary once again reverted to the mundane, so I too saw the novelty of 4 am gradually becoming more soporific than tapasaya. When you’re outside the egregore as I and I assume most using this forum are now, the stuff that doesn’t tie up won’t let you rest. But for years, on occasion (you just never knew when!) I was still granted temporary egregore entry, and knew I had been, because the nagging doubts would not return until weeks after I was firmly back in the mundane. rgds Jamesy
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