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gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject: Who is Shiv Baba? A question of Faith. |
A review of the postings on xbkchat indicates that we exist on a spectrum of Faith ranging from cynical doubt to passionate or naive faith. It is not always easy to recognize or acknowledge ourselves on this spectrum, especially when the atmosphere is sharply discerning and critical. When confronted with contradictions or inconsistencies in the knowledge we tend to wear a blindfold, or shades that make us see those of a different view existing in 'dark light.' At such time we shelter under the umbrella of Faith even when that umbrella may obscure the greater light of an evolving intellect. Faith and surrender are the bedrock of religion but that bedrock can become the very shackle and stone by which we are imprisoned when that religion “fails us.” That is the dilemma of the Cult: to leave is to ‘break faith and fortune’; to surrender unconditionally is to deny oneself the basic right of freedom of choice. I remember that the character Claire, in the film Signs and Wonders, starring James Earl Jones, shown on Exxon’s Masterpiece Theatre a few years ago, beautifully portrayed that point. If you haven’t seen it then check it out. Reflecting on the submissions to this site though, many of us – especially the older heads – might ask ourselves how could we have been so naïve and gullible for so many years? The answer, I think, lies in our first foundation of Faith. Indeed, the importance of Faith was made clear from the inception when that controversial ‘original Gita’ was first published (and withdrawn) in India by Brother Jagdish Chander. I was privileged to read a copy many years ago where the declaration was made that the whole basis of one’s success in this path depended on absolute faith in the knowledge. Should that faith begin to crack or become sullied for whatever reason then it was said to be a sure sign that the soul belonged more to the Silver than the Golden Age. I remember once, Kumarka Dadi, when asked to describe the quality of faith needed for the path, remarked that if Baba asked her to go walk in the ocean she would do so without hesitation. This might remind some of us of Peter’s failing when he started then began to sink with doubt. I have no doubt that such lessons of Faith abound in all religions. The point is, though, that it could be fatal. As surrendered Brahmins we earnestly sought to emulate Dadi’s example against any strains of our intellect. After all, we believed that this knowledge would only ‘fit into the intellect of Brahmins.’ Therefore, to doubt was to cast serious aspersions on one’s spiritual character and eternal fortune. It may sound ludicrous or cynical but some, caught in that angst of conflict, committed suicide. The problem of Faith is that, like any power, it can be used for good or evil; it can be the key to Heaven or Hell depending on where we invest it. When, after Jonestown, we were admonished to “beware of strange cults” we firmly rejected such admonitions: we had found the real God and that made all the difference. All apparent contradictions, shortcomings or omissions were irrelevant and paled into insignificance when measured against that one fact. Such was our faith. Now Time, that unfailing teller of truth, has led us to our inevitable fate. Some of us never dreamt that one day we would seriously question the contradictions or shortcomings of the knowledge – the very points we strove to defend! The salient ones have appeared on this site: the length of the cycle; the absence of meaningful accounts of other ancient cultures; the contradictions between gyani time and geological time; the real nature of God if He could be in Madhuban and sustain the Universe at the same time; the contradiction of a population increasing beyond 6 billion souls when we were told in the seven days course that the population of the soul world was 5.5 billion (would God miss the mark by half a billion?). Then there are the increasing questions of interventions in our world by aliens of remarkably superior ability when we were told clearly “you are My only children”. Yet, the faithful tell us that these are irrelevant points since the main point is one’s purification – and we have miles and miles to go. I agree that is the main point, but it is also a point made by countless gurus and paths. It is not exclusive to the BKs. And if we find that the BKs share these noble goals and, like other religions, have their shortcomings then is theirs the only path to Perfection? And if it isn’t, as we seem to see on sober reflection, then a salient question for all xbks is ‘Who, then, is Shiv Baba?’
joy Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 9 |
Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject: |
ShivBaba definitely is - it's all us body bound souls who get it soooo mixed up and messy! The quest is how to commune purely and personally with Him again - without all this doctrinal palaver and invention. Seeds of truth do get through but there is heaps and heaps of man-made embellishment. It is these pearls of truth that capture our attention and our hearts - we want to find more, but as in Pilgrims Progress (john bunyon) the path is indeed perilous.
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject: |
Shiv Baba definitely is - what Joy? That is my question.
mitra Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 8 Location: INDIA-Kerala-God's Own Country |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Who is Shiv Baba? A question of Faith. |
. I was privileged to read a copy many years ago where the declaration was made that the whole basis of one’s success in this path depended on absolute faith in the knowledge. Should that faith begin to crack or become sullied for whatever reason then it was said to be a sure sign that the soul belonged more to the Silver than the Golden Age. [That point is absolutely RIGHT! There should not be the slightest point of doubt in ones mind. The consciousness of Absolute Faith emerges automatically in ones thought process.[if the soul is having the sanskar of golden age otherwise defenitely there will be doubt. If there is 0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of doubt, then that soul will not get into the Royal family of Golden Age. ] the length of the cycle [It has been proved earlier that the carbon dating is not an absolute correct method to detect the fossile age.] the absence of meaningful accounts of other ancient cultures [ All the cultures in the last 2500 years are accounted for by the scientific people but not above that period WHY?] the contradictions between gyani time and geological time [same answer to the lengh of cycle question] the real nature of God if He could be in Madhuban and sustain the Universe at the same time Why can't it be ? The supreme soul is so powerfull that he can be at one place in one second and in another place in the next second! the contradiction of a population increasing beyond 6 billion souls when we were told in the seven days course that the population of the soul world was 5.5 billion (would God miss the mark by half a billion?) [ God is not missing the number actually Can Anyone count the EXACT number of souls in this earth by any census? NO NEVER ] Then there are the increasing questions of interventions in our world by aliens of remarkably superior ability when we were told clearly “you are My only children”; [ Have any one of US seen an ALIEN? ] Yet, the faithful tell us that these are irrelevant points [:Let me say that THESE ARE NOT IRRELEVANT POINTS> These are the common questions any soul will ask when one comes to the gyan] since the main point is one’s purification – [Defenitely no doubt about that ] and we have miles and miles to go [Yeah! SURE! ] then is theirs the only path to Perfection? [ALL other paths are generated by GOD's children. This is the only path generated by GOD himself ] ‘Who, then, is Shiv Baba?’ " He is the only one who knows us better than others! _________________ OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !
administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48 |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject: |
Congratulations to gyaniwasi! The post you made on April 1, 2004, which started this topic, has been awarded classic post status. You have the added distinction of being the very first person to win the award. Your post now enjoys a permanent place on our classic posts page. It may be viewed here: http://www.xbkchat.com/classicposts.html
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
Mirabhen, your mirth is infectious but we must be careful! It is not such a good thing to walk through a hospital ward and make light of the patients' pains. You have chosen a very good service field but service is an art - remember what Baba used to say about giving the right injection! You remind me of my early days in gyan so long ago
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:42 pm Post subject: |
gyaniwasi, after supressing my jelousy, caused by your spanking new classic post award, let me say a hearty "well deserved" I agree with much of what you said in your post - most of it in fact. You have asked the billion dollar question: who, indeed, is Shiv Baba? As the Mission Statement says, the belief that he is THE supreme soul is the trump card of the BKs. Thinking about it now, I feel that his "bodiless" nature is what makes the BKs unique. It can also account for the fact that so many, even though internally disenchanted, stifle their doubts and feelings, and do not voice them. Put another way, if SB was someone in human form, followers would have been a lot quicker to pick up defects and speak about them. However, when, as in the case of the BKs, the "source" is apparently non human and non physical (!) its a lot harder to say that it cannot be God. When you are dealing with a non human / non physical entity you have to discount normal human failings and motives....the things that have caused the downfall of so many human gurus. For example, many would say that it was principally greed, and the urge for wordly power, that sank "Bhagwan" (Osho) Rajneesh. In the case of Sai Baba, his image has been seriously tarnished by what are, at least, allegations of sexual misconduct with young males. In the case of a non physical entity, what would be the motive to mislead?
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:59 pm Post subject: |
Atma wrote:
Quote:
In the case of a non physical entity, what would be the motive to mislead?
Thank you Atma! But oh my friend, non-physical gurus are not uncommon! Try reading a bit of Tex Marrs's New Age Cults and Religions. You will see that even the point-of-light idea is not so unique. Of course, he is himself unapologetically a Christian propogandist but that does not make all of his content invalid - just as much of the BK teachings are morally sound and valid but must be open to inquiry. Non-physical gurus are also on a service field of their own - just like their physical counterparts. I think Gary Zukav alludes to this ... what? I'm "mixing the knowledge" right Atma, I think what happens to us is that we get 'boxed in' to thinking within the paradigm of the murlis. It was our conditioning by that foundation of Faith. Now we can hardly recognise the extent of its influence on our thinking. We exist on this spectrum of Faith and Doubt and even healthy enquiry can lead to a sense of guilt and fear - as shared with us by Isabela on the topic Why I left the Brahma Kumaris Years ago, I read a small treatiste entitled "The Function of Reason" by the British philosopher A.N.Whitehead. In discussing what makes a theory or body of knowledge valid he noted one of the most essential charicteristics: it must display both internal and external logical consistency. I subscribe to this view, and in the context of our discussion on gyan we seem to be so enchanted by its internal logical consistency that we prefer to ignore or invalidate its external inconsistencies. Hence we glibly dismiss the contradictions and adopt much of the official school of thought in gyan. But this is understandable. We are dealing with this very delicate issue of our 'ontological security'..... _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 6:55 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
Years ago, I read a small treatiste entitled "The Function of Reason" by the British philosopher A.N.Whitehead. In discussing what makes a theory or body of knowledge valid he noted one of the most essential charicteristics: it must display both internal and external logical consistency. I subscribe to this view, and in the context of our discussion on gyan we seem to be so enchanted by its internal logical consistency that we prefer to ignore or invalidate its external inconsistencies. Hence we glibly dismiss the contradictions and adopt much of the official school of thought in gyan. But this is understandable. We are dealing with this very delicate issue of our 'ontological security'.....
gyaniwasi, that's an excellent reference, and it makes absolute sense. Yes, there must be internal and external logical consistency. And the latter is very problematic in the BK "knowledge"...to put it mildly. However, going off on a tangent for a moment, there is something else to be considered. It's what BKs and others would call "the fruit". As it's sometime said "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Now bear in mind that I am not advocating for the BKs but, in trying to be as objective and fair as possible, I am mindful of the dictum "give credit where it is due" or, as it is more colloqually put, "give Jack his jacket". What am I getting at? Well, it is undeniable that, inspite of the criticisms, the BKs, as an organization keep marching on and growing. You mentioned a movie in your (classic) post. I will mention another: "The runner stumbles". I am not referencing the movie itself, just making use of its name to make a point. So far, after all these years, the BKs as an organization have not really "stumbled" in any significant way. They keep growing. Without pressure tactics to extract money from people, they have established centres all around the world - in all five continents. Today, at their headquarters in Mount Abu, there is an amazing array of massive and impressive buildings. Further, they have not been dogged by anything near to the kind of scandals that have plagued Sai Baba, Rajneesh, Maharishi and the Hare Krishnas etc. Many would reason that the exceptional expansion, coupled with the lack of 'stumbles', point to the quality of the seed and the quality of guidance provided by the source. As I said, I hold no brief for the BKs but I guess what I am pointing to is this: if the "seed" was defective or inadequate, would not the tree eventually be deformed, stunted or die? Would not the runner stumble? Would not the universal karmic laws eventually manifest over time which, as you said is the unfailing teller of truth? Perhaps you may answer "We don't know what is yet to unfold." True. In the meanwhile, it's hard to argue with success.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:11 pm Post subject: |
It’s nice to return to this site after a busy week and see so many thoughtful posts! Atma, you raise a good point; the Brahma Kumaris have a pretty clean reputation. I think as far as spiritual paths go, it’s probably one of the better ones. Along the lines of giving credit where credit is due, I was impressed with the personal transformation I saw people ‘in knowledge’ undergo over the years. I’ve watched people on other spiritual paths and while the powers they were acquiring were impressive, I found the concomitant lack of moral development disturbing. Brahmins on the other hand seemed to grow into kinder, sweeter softer beings. But are the BKs really growing? The center I was affiliated with longest, headed by an eminent B.K., remained a about the same size for six years. I then moved abroad twice for extended periods of time and those centers were also attended by just a small stable core. How do the BKs calculate their membership numbers, I wonder? Is it by those who’ve completed the basic course? That number is guaranteed to increase reassuringly… Of course, I know only a small corner of BKdom and I could have just by chance ended up at a series of struggling centers. But what I saw did cause me to questions the ‘seed’. If this knowledge was coming straight from God, why were there only six or seven of us there to hear it every morning in a center that had been around for twenty years?
joy Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 9 |
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:58 pm Post subject: |
:cry:Who is Shiva Baba? Indeed this seems the most simple question - surely he is the source of all energy - the still place from which all animation emanates. However, upon my studies with the BKs I was a bit surprised to learn that even Shiva Baba was a creation and not the Alpha & Omega of everything. I would be most interested in what others of longer learning have to add to this question.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:38 am Post subject: |
In responding to the question, who is Shiv Baba, I think there’s a clarification to be made. There’s the conception of Shiv Baba that we are introduced to in the introductory course, the point of light, the source – a concept of God that I think resonates with people of most faiths. Then there’s the Shivbaba one encounters at Madhuban who speaks the Murli through one of the senior Dadis. If your faith in the BKs is rock solid, the two Shivbabas are one and the same. If not……..I think that is explained by the fact that B.K.s will say one shouldn’t come to Madhuban to acquire faith & the fact that you are only allowed to come if you’ve been attending morning class for six months or more etc…. That still leaves us with the question what is the Shivbaba one encounters at Madhuban? Anyone who has experienced these visits can attest to the fact that they are very powerful, yet what are they? One interesting piece of the puzzle seems to be that after Brahma Baba left the body, many of the Dadis were going into trance and speaking with Shivbaba, but they were reporting contradictory things (Maya interference or something like that was how it was justified) and as a result, they’ve only let one Dadi be the vehicle since. Is the voice we hear in Madhuban the voice of God or ‘simply’ that of a Dadi who has been meditating a great many years?
Guest |
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:54 am Post subject: |
Dear Isabel, Omshanti. The points you have raised are very interesting indeed. The kind of knowledge that is narrated through Gulzar Dadi at Madhuban and the physical changes that appear in her when narrating knowledge (Avyakta Vani) prompts many to doubt whether it is the soul of Brahma or the Supreme Soul Shiva who enters into her to narrate knowledge. When the Supreme Soul used to enter into Brahma Baba when he was alive there appeared no physical changes in him when he narrated knowledge or murli. In fact he also used to hear the murli himself. But in case of Gulzar Dadi it is a well known fact that she is not in her own consciousness when knowledge is being narrated through her, and that she reads the Avyakta Vani afterwards when it is printed. Brahma Baba's voice or face did not change when Shiva used to enter into him. But Gulzar Dadi's face and voice changes when some soul enters into her. So it is certain that some soul enters into her when she narrates knowledge but whose soul it is? Is it the Supreme soul or the soul of Brahma who is supposed to be without a physical body ever since he left his mortal coil. In the last line of the Avyakta Vani dated 23.1.69 it has been said, " Baba has asked not to stay back for long" This proves that only one soul enters into Gulzar dadi. There is some other soul who has ordered the soul of Brahma not to stay for a longer period in Gulzar dadi's body because it is not his own body. So if Supreme Soul Shiva is not entering into Gulzar Dadi's body then where is he now? Is it in the soul world or in any other soul's body? Arjuna
Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 |
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:17 am Post subject: |
Good posts all. To Atma and gyaniwasi: in the BK path, we were taught "always pick the virtues of others". I suppose that principle can also be applied to organizations, not just individuals. So I agree with giving credit where its due; and yes, there is much that the BKs can justly be given credit for. Some of it has been mentioned here: the expansion, the clean record, the minimal 'stumbles', the positive personal transformation that some have achieved. So, there is a credit side to the equation. To gyaniwasi: good quote from Whitehead. However, as you know, ALL of the major world religions are riddled with logical fallacies and inconsistencies. There are things in the Bible and Koran that make us go "huh"? So I guess when we're in the realm of religion per se (not just cults) logic often goes out the window. As you said, much has to be taken on faith....even if such faith be blind Back to Atma: about the "proof of the pudding". It does not necessarily mean that the "seed" is valid. Have you ever considered that when a large group of people put their minds to something they can make it happen, based on their unified focus and efforts? The example of rain making comes to mind. Also, there is a paranormal story which goes like this: a group of paranormal researchers "invented" an unseen entity, gave it a name and attributes, and then "invoked" it using a ouija board. The "invented" entity appeared, manifested the attributes given to it, and started communicating with them accordingly, through the ouija board!!! Food for thought eh? The power of unified minds is enormous. Back to gyaniwasi: yes, there are conceptions of God that are non physical. There are also instances (see California!) of supposed "spirits" being "channeled" by mediums. However, the BK situation is markedly different in several ways and I think the distinctions are important: * The BK entity claims (and always has) to be GOD....very few, if any, other channeled entity made/makes that claim. * The BK entity has consistently directed and guided the organization, with, as mentioned before, considerable success. * The "knowledge" laid out by the BK entity is more comprehensive than the sporadic chatter of other channelled beings. * The BK entity is apparently not being channeled. It is HE who decides when and in whom he comes. Joy, my condolences on your mother's passing.
Quote:
Who is Shiva Baba? Indeed this seems the most simple question - surely he is the source of all energy - the still place from which all animation emanates. However, upon my studies with the BKs I was a bit surprised to learn that even Shiva Baba was a creation and not the Alpha & Omega of everything. I would be most interested in what others of longer learning have to add to this question.
With respect, I think you are mistaken. We were always told that Shiv Baba IS the Alpha and Omega. In fact, SB himself uses those words to describe himself, in the murlis. No, he is not a creation. In BK "knowledge", three things are eternal: God, souls and matter. So recheck with your source. Isabel, welcome back. We missed you. (Oops! Cyber attachment....can't have that
Quote:
That still leaves us with the question what is the Shivbaba one encounters at Madhuban? Anyone who has experienced these visits can attest to the fact that they are very powerful, yet what are they? One interesting piece of the puzzle seems to be that after Brahma Baba left the body, many of the Dadis were going into trance and speaking with Shivbaba, but they were reporting contradictory things (Maya interference or something like that was how it was justified) and as a result, they’ve only let one Dadi be the vehicle since. Is the voice we hear in Madhuban the voice of God or ‘simply’ that of a Dadi who has been meditating a great many years?
I don't know how long you were in gyan, but what I can tell you is that up to about 15 or 20 years ago there was a practice of BK "trance messenger" sisters offering "bhog" to Baba in early mornig class on Thursdays - the supposed lucky day of Jupiter. During the offering, those sisters who were dubbed "trance messengers" (not mediums, since there is only one medium, Gulzar) would go into trance, remain in that state for 15 minutes or so, and then "come back" to tell the gathering about the "meeting" they had with Baapdada (ie Shiv Baba and Brahma Baba combined) in the angelic world. The practice of offering bhog on Thursdays still goes on but the trance messeges have been discontinued. I enquired discreetly and enventually found out that a directive was issued to discontinue the practice because some of the more junior trance messengers were giving 'mixed messages' - ie maya interference or putting their own thoughts and "spin" on the messages. Things like this make one wonder how 'perfect' is the source and the system. Surely, an all knowing entity would have foreseen this development and only appointed mature and accuracte trance messengers. Anyway....where's the salt shaker? Arjuna, you're coming on strong brother
Quote:
So it is certain that some soul enters into her when she narrates knowledge but whose soul it is? Is it the Supreme soul or the soul of Brahma who is supposed to be without a physical body ever since he left his mortal coil. In the last line of the Avyakta Vani dated 23.1.69 it has been said, " Baba has asked not to stay back for long" This proves that only one soul enters into Gulzar dadi. There is some other soul who has ordered the soul of Brahma not to stay for a longer period in Gulzar dadi's body because it is not his own body. So if Supreme Soul Shiva is not entering into Gulzar Dadi's body then where is he now? Is it in the soul world or in any other soul's body?
OK, you've begged the question and set it up nicely. So I suppose that, as a PBK, you'll answer your own question by telling us (bingo!) that SB is now speaking through the PBK medium Verendra Dixit. Am I right...or am I right? The thing is you're dealing with world (and spirituality) weary folk here. So cut us some slack if we don't jump on the PBK bandwagon right away OK? By the way. What you wrote about the way SB used to speak through BB is interesting. Were there movie cameras in those days? If so, does any film exist which would show SB speaking through BB? I am sure that most BKs, XBKs etc have never seen such a film. If not, are there at least any audio recordings of SB speaking through BB? It would be intersting to see and hear the difference. OK folks, even though I say it, this has been quite an epistle! Have a good weekend.
joy Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 9 |
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:38 am Post subject: |
Many thanx Paul for yr reply and condolences - I have just returned after 12 hours driving, fr the funeral. I have been putting in quite a bit of meditation in the last 48 hours and it has definitely been productive and beneficial. As to checking the source of teaching I picked up during introduction course - alas all my reference books are currently in storage - but I will look that up eventually - I was surprised myself to learn that - having always had the scientific view that God was the source of all energy (has science admitted that themselves yet? trying to avoid it with lots of palaver! ) P>s. My 13 year old son has been trying to help me add an avatar from outside sites and none of them are accepted even tho' fitting the size requirements. Can you help us?
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