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isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: Post-BK spiritual growth |
Paul did such a nice job of summing up the contributions to the topic 'Who is Shiv Baba' that I don't feel bad commandeering the top of the topics list I've been struggling with the question of, 'how does one move on after being a B.K.'? As a B.K., spiritual growth is easy in some senses becuase it's a follow-the-recipe approach. Adhering to B.K. precepts means significant meditation time is always built into one's day, a dose of food for thought is handed out at 6:30am each morning, and there's a standing list of virtues to be cultivating. Finding one's way spiritually seems a fair bit tougher post-B.K.. As many of you have already pointed out, the shortcomings of the B.K.s are shared by a majority of organized religions. Therefore those of us who have been honest enough with ourselves to leave the B.K.s cannot easily turn around an swallow another belief system hook line and sinker (tempting though it may be). Yes, yes, I know; we have to find our own answers now. Mustering up the energy and the discipline to do this requires tremendous inner resources . I also buy into the notion that following a spiritual path alongside other people is easier because this facilitates the manifestation of spiritual energies and beings. In going it alone one looses access to that communal spiritual energy boost as well. So, how are you all coping? How have you structured your spiritual lives? What's it like down in the trenches on your post BK path?
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:31 am Post subject: |
Wonderful!Well said and very timely, Isabel. This is probably an intense topic for all of us. After about 20 years post-gyan I still haven't found another 'way'. I am caught in this flux of doubt and residual attachment to Baba. I mean, I have not had that quality of sustained spiritual euphoria again. Sometimes, I am moved to quiet tears in frustration - baffled by the contradictions I experienced and yet feeling no anger against 'God'. Then I ask myself if I feel no anger against God, why can't I relate to him? Then comes the answer: that the closest I came to understanding Him was through the BK path. So when I used to tell people I had 'left the knowledge' and they would express the hope that I still meditated, I'd be annoyed that they could not understand the depth of my faith that I had 'met God' and was now estranged. It brings me back to your point about distinguishing between the Supreme Point of Light we communed with and the entity who delivers sermons on Mt. Abu. I bear no enmity to that entity also, but 'finding God' again... no I haven't had that experience again. About your comment on the importance of fellowship or collective spiritual energy:that is why this website is so important to me. At last I can communicate with others who have had or are having my kind of experience. We have no 'encounter groups' in my neck of the woods, so it would be nice if we can share how we fare. I read a lot but hardly find any fora for discussion. I think one dimension that was 'missing' in gyan was in-depth mystical knowledge that would have enabled us to understand ourselves more fully as humans. The same goes for orthodox Christianity. I think much more of Christ's teachings could be inculcated if the 'mysteries' He alluded to were available to the church members. That is what Lodges are about but, like you said, we hesitate to take another plunge. One more thing before I leave: if the messenger contradicts the message, does that make the message invalid? This is a new post I've been contemplating... _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
ifegenia Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17 |
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:25 am Post subject: |
gyaniwasi wrote:
Wonderful!Well said and very timely, Isabel. Then I ask myself if I feel no anger against God, why can't I relate to him? Then comes the answer: that the closest I came to understanding Him was through the BK path. So when I used to tell people I had 'left the knowledge' and they would express the hope that I still meditated, I'd be annoyed that they could not understand the depth of my faith that I had 'met God' and was now estranged. ...
If you actually "met God" why is it that you are now estranged? Do you think God rejected you? What was the value of meeting God if it was just a passing experience? Please take these questions in the most sincere light. Peace - Ifegenia
Guest |
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
Was it your relationship with God or the people in the organization that caused you to leave?? I sence a sadness within your post and truely hope that you find a place where you can feel comfortable again.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:29 pm Post subject: |
Gyaniwasi, your experience sounds very similar to mine. I take great comfort in knowing that there are others on this xbk path, though I wish it were an easier one for all of us. Sue, let me venture an answer to your question. When I was a B.K. I was delirious with the intoxication that I had met God in Madhuban and that I could listen to God's voice over the internet at the center. I would go to the center early in the morning on the days that Baba spoke from Madhuban and spend the rest of the day with a huge, self-satisfied grin on my face. I had spent the morning listening to God, my life was infinitely more meaningful and satisfying than that of the people around me. So for awhile I lived on that high plane, feeling that I had had the tremendous privilege of meeting God and was ever so blessed. But things were never quite right. I tried to ride the wave of my intoxication over my doubts, and it worked mostly, but never completely. This moment hangs in my mind. While at Madhuban, a senior brother encouraged me to slip in with a group of people that had been invited to come onto the stage. I did and as I neared Dadi Gulzar, or Baba as you will, I mentally called out 'hello, hello! It's me, the one that's been talking to you all these years! Hello, look over this way' I passed within 10ft of Dadi Gulzar and not once did that being look my way or return my greeting. Outwardly I brushed it off, justified it, and did I mention, I had just stood 10ft from God? But that nagging little voice said to me, that person on the stage was not the God that I had developed an intimate relationship with, no matter how much I wanted it to be. So you see, one goes from having this marvellous feeling that one has met God, to having to eventually listen to the voice of reason that has grown louder over time. Sometimes I wish that voice weren't there. It could all have been so easy and simple. But I think it's that voice us which will somehow or another lead us to even deeper and greater truths.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:33 pm Post subject: Oops! |
Ooops sorry, I said Sue and meant Ifegenia. Hope that clears things up
Guest |
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: |
Thanks for the wonderful reply. Is is it possible that the relationship you experienced with God for so many years was in fact the truth and that the "meeting" was not really God, but a show???
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: |
Sue, I think that is the central issue. But I fear this realization lands one in a netherworld of contradictions. Raja Yoga is not a 'take-what-you-want-and-leave-the-rest-faith'. Yes, one isn't expected to believe everything all at once, but it is fully expected that one's doubts will wear away over time. I think some of the other posts have pinpointed the issue nicely; what makes the Brahma Kumaris unique is that they believe their knowledge is spoken directly from God. 'The show' MUST therefore be God. The follow through from that is that all that is taught and done must be correct and there can be no place in the organization for 'halfsies' because this would contradict the internal logic of the teachings. But then what are those who find themselves somewhere in-between to do?
Guest |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:38 pm Post subject: |
Isabel, it has been my experience with the Brahma Kumaris that very few really believe the whole package and that in fact most practice a take-what-you-want-and leave-the-rest attitude. In the introductory course students are told to do just that. You are absolutely right in that this is not openly expressed by regular students but it is there and is accepted. I think it is unrealistic to expect people to follow any religion completely without questioning it. I have also met some very old Brahmins who are faithful to the practice and choose not to go to Madhuban anymore because they do not like the "show". Their relationship with God and the organization is strong and healthy today. I believe what is really important is your relationship with God not the organization.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject: |
It's good to hear that people in some centers are taking a more relaxed approach. While I was in Madhuban it seemed to me the Australians were a particularly open bunch. Unfortunately my experience hasn't been so good. The centers I have been at would pay lip service to the idea that they were open to discussion -you could take what you wanted and leave the rest- but in so many ways this was looked down upon. Sadly I am reminded of those people when I read some of the B.K./PBK posts on this website. Be glad you've landed in a good place and stay strong in YOUR beliefs.
Guest |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject: |
Isabel, thanks for your kind words. What you say is absolutely true and I do not have to tell you that the people who looked down on you were completely wrong. You know, that it was THEIR own ego that allowed them to behave in such a disrespectful manner. Every religious or volunteer organization has people who join because they can not make it in the real world, they get their power, recognition and a sense of belonging from following the party line. This is sad and nothing is more offensive than having that party line rammed down your throat. Unfortuantly there are some in the Brahama Kumaris who do this incorrectly believing that they are "spreading knowledge. They are wrong... They not only do a diservice to themselves, the organization but most importantly to God. Our job is to see through their rubbish and grow, not because of them but rather, in spite of them. I wish you only the very best on your spiritual journey Isabel.
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject: |
Quote:
I've been struggling with the question of, 'how does one move on after being a B.K.'?
Isabel, you have started what is, and could well remain, THE most important thread in this forum. This is a HUGE topic, and I can see it being nibbled on by various XBK members over time. I myself will "meditate" on it and nibble on it from time to time. Do you recall SB saying that, once you have come into gyan, you have "seen the moon"? Another favorite of his is "there is only one shop". To my mind, the subtext underlying those remarks is this: once the soul has become deeply involved in the BK path, it can never ever fully leave. Something remains, and will always be, embedded. Gyaniwasi touched on it from one angle when he stated:
Quote:
the closest I came to understanding Him was through the BK path.
One aspect of it is that this is incorporeal GOD teaching. Another aspect of is this: the BK knowledge is overarching in a way that the scriptures of the other religions can't possibly be, simply because of the cyclic backward looking perspective that gyan gives, which encompasses and seeks to explicate the role of the various religions in the historic drama. The other religions simply couldn't do that because, in their foundation period, they were limited in their ambit because of the specific time and location where they arose. In other words, Hinduism couldn't "look ahead" and talk about Buddhism. Buddhism couldn't look ahead and speak to Christianity and Christianity could not encompass Islam. However, by virtue of the cyclic scheme, gyan is able to look backwards and address the religions that were established in the past....and also assign them a lesser place in the cycle. In her topic "Why I left the Brahma Kumaris" Belinda mentions a testimony by a former BK, and she gives the URL where the "testimony" can be read. In it, the XBK struggles with a pull towards Christianity and states that the most difficult obstacle to overcome, because of the cyclic "pecking order" of religions, is the idea that Christianity (according to gyan) ranks lower down. I don't mean to imply that your pull is or should be towards Christianity. The point I am making would apply to a person of ANY religious background who came into gyan. The problem would be that, because of the heavy indoctrination ("You have seen the moon") the all embracing cyclic perspective and the non physical nature of the "guru", a feeling may come that anything else is / would be second best. That, and also....the memories remain. This is probably not one of my better posts, but I hope I have started the process of "nibbling" on your topic.
isabel Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39 |
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:52 pm Post subject: |
I think you raise an very important issue Atma. The B.K.s do have the logistical advantage when it comes to comparisons with other religions. And you're right, these comparisons that we imbided along with all the rest of the knowledge will always haunt us. Since leaving the B.K.s I have now and then 'taken shelter' with other spiritual groups -listening to their knowledge and sharing their spiritual energy. In the back of my mind the judgements do lurk along with a lot of other spiritual baggage...
gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 |
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:00 am Post subject: |
Quote:
In the back of my mind the judgments do lurk...
Isabel, I think it is vital to retain your individual sense of judgment. Usually we tend to feel guilty when it goes against that part of us that wants to be 'fully surrendered' to God, but I think he respects honesty. Sometimes it is fear that compels us stifle our inquires. As you said previously
Quote:
that voice [within] us ... will somehow or another lead us to even deeper and greater truths
. I believe that. None of us can be more knowledgeable than God and to seek greater clarity of understanding is to grow into Him. That, I think, is the essential value of 'churning'. When the 'churning' leads us outside the realms of accepted 'Truth' then we must not be afraid to go beyond - and that is where we have been failing. I, too, experienced a peculiarity in a meeting with Baba years ago. I asked him for a message for a brother who was estranged from gyan, one who had met Him in previous years and had had strong faith in Him. He leaned forward, alert, and [through the senior sister translating] said: 'Ah! Tell him his service is very good!' He then gave me toli to give that brother. When I delivered the toli and message the brother was most bewildered. He hung his head, shook it slowly and thoughtfully and said 'There must be a mistake.' Of course I told him God doesn't make mistakes Atma asked
Quote:
Do you recall SB saying that, once you have come into gyan, you have "seen the moon"?
but Baba also referred to Brahma as "the moon" I wonder if that is why we continue to search for "the sun".... _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...."
bkanil Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Posts: 1 |
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:41 am Post subject: |
This moment hangs in my mind. While at Madhuban, a senior brother encouraged me to slip in with a group of people that had been invited to come onto the stage. I did and as I neared Dadi Gulzar, or Baba as you will, I mentally called out 'hello, hello! It's me, the one that's been talking to you all these years! Hello, look over this way' I passed within 10ft of Dadi Gulzar and not once did that being look my way or return my greeting. [While Baba is giving drishti, Baba says He gives drishti to all His children all over the world. Moreover He says that even while He is in this body He is seeing all His children . That means evenwhile using the physical senses of the instrument, He can see and give drishti to all His children.. Baba knows the mind of each and every child. Defenitely He has seen you and given his powerful vibrations of His divine love to you. If you analyse your thoughts at the time you where in front of Baba, there might have been any doubtful thoughts which blocked you from experiencing it at that time. Such waste thoughts are also part of Maya's cunning tactics to drag you away from Baba's lap. So give attention to do good spiritual effort till the next season. Then Baba will surely fill you with all His treasures. bkanil] _________________ be happy make others happy
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