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Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Two cents short! |
Atma, Just wanted to point out that I have been waiting to see your two cents on the topic you started back in April 2005. Almost a year late and still two cents short! Atma,
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For now, I'll hold off on giving my own opinion - in case it influences the views expressed. However, I will come back later and give my two cents.
Still waiting.... Tete
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
Anonymous wrote:
I’m a man. From my point of view indulging in sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation is senseless. It is just a loss.
Sorry to hear that your haven't experienced the pleasures and benefits of enjoying sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation: a view is hardly an experience. Even if procreation through intercourse is an aim, some practice (with or without intercourse) may be helpful to prepare for that moment--that it may be enjoyable as well as productive And whatever your personal reproductive goals, intercourse is definitely not a requirement for sexual fulfillment. Nature is full of extravagance: a tree produces thousands of apricots, a bulb produces hundreds of flowers, a weed produces millions of seeds. Very few ever take root. A musician plays thousands of hours for no one's ears but his own. Running, without being chased by a lion, is also a waste of energy, unless maybe running into the arms of someone you love, or running for the sheer joy of it. Georgia O'Keefe's paintings are intriguing for their feeling of acceptance of one' sexuality (although I concede that such interpretation is highly subjective) combined with our knowledge that she chose to forgo motherhood to focus her life's energies fully on her art. We also know she had a full life, enjoying lovers and good health even in old age. Frida Kahlo produced great art while accepting all the passion, nourishments and hurts of many loves, and working and loving despite debilitating back pain. Who is to say who is better? Posting on an Internet BBS is also, strictly speaking, a waste of energy, unless it has a purpose to it, according to someone privileged to judge. Self criticism and self-judgment, inasmuch as these suppress a creative, passionate response to Life, are also serious wastes of energy, and far more costly to me in terms of my life productivity than the part of my time I allow for expression of my sexuality. I am responding with honesty and humor such as I possess, to the strong message of Judgment in your brief posting, which no doubt occupies an important role in your life as well.
Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Celibacy pros and Con |
Joel, Kudos on your post! Do you remember the song "If loving you is wrong I don't want to be right?" Says it all doesn’t it. One point on Frida Kahlo is that one of her most painful periods was the loss of her pregnancies. I did see he paintings this past summer and took in all the depth of her pain and anguish she expressed in her art work. She truly exposed all her raw emotions to show the loss. Oh, then of course there is finger painting which is just a pure expression art form....as life is drawing without an eraser.......................... Regards, Tete
Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
Joel I liked your point about artists. Well, before Gyan I was studyind paint and I had great talent. But in raja yoga I couldn´t paint anymore. I suppressed the sexuality and my talent too. I tried to paint, but I didn´t have a free mind to do it. I think that I need to paint just shiv baba´s, yogis and flowers And my paint used to be very strong, full of energy... I´m trying to paint again, 15 years later. And I felt that my lack of creativity is linked with problems with life. Not just sexuality, but vitality. Something that I need to recover...
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Celibacy pros and Con |
Tete wrote:
life is drawing without an eraser..........................
I like that. A wise friend enthusiastically practices brush-and-black-ink painting. She even makes her own brushes. Her motto: every stroke is beautiful. In her life, too.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
Joel wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I’m a man. From my point of view indulging in sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation is senseless. It is just a loss.
Sorry to hear that your haven't experienced the pleasures and benefits of enjoying sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation: a view is hardly an experience.
I don't think he said that he did not enjoy it nor was it enjoyable, and ultimately, objectively, I would have to agree with him - and you on all the other wastes. It is just trying to cheat nature to enjoy the fruit without paying the price but either, invariably, catches you some how to exact a price or is a loss. Read up on the Taoist masters and your irreplaceable Kidney Jing. Modern day humanity has swung way too far off to another extreme in expression of it perceived right to unlimited pleasures with limited costs. As with what we are doing to the environment, if we don't pay, someone else will later. You cant always mistake chastity for supression a la 60s and 70s pop psychology. Ex-L
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
ex-london wrote:
Joel wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I’m a man. From my point of view indulging in sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation is senseless. It is just a loss.
Sorry to hear that your haven't experienced the pleasures and benefits of enjoying sexual intercourse without the aim of procreation: a view is hardly an experience.
I don't think he said that he did not enjoy it nor was it enjoyable, and ultimately, objectively, I would have to agree with him - and you on all the other wastes. It is just trying to cheat nature to enjoy the fruit without paying the price but either, invariably, catches you some how to exact a price or is a loss. Read up on the Taoist masters and your irreplaceable Kidney Jing. Modern day humanity has swung way too far off to another extreme in expression of it perceived right to unlimited pleasures with limited costs. As with what we are doing to the environment, if we don't pay, someone else will later. You cant always mistake chastity for supression a la 60s and 70s pop psychology. Ex-L
Ex-L, somehow your canned Bk responses push a button in me. Do I argue science with you? Because you believe some Taoist theories handed down like the received wisdom of superior masters. William Burroughs used heroin, which is way more feel-good chemicals than involved in love and sex, and lived into his eighties. Didn't maim or kill him. People have plenty of energy for sex and then some, if that's their interest. Just reading Toist stuff means you know nothing, Do I talk experience with you. you're too afraid to have an experience thinking you're fragile like a porcelain doll. I might be more open to such arguments if I hadn't collected so many hundreds of counterexamples. The damage to the earth's environment has nothing to do with a teenager (or grown up) wanking or screwing. In fact the opposite. Someone who doesn't get satisfaction through those internal means is more likely to get thrills through driving, flying, shopping, through many other means all involving huge production of CO2 far outstripping the measly metabolic output of the human body. People shame children about masturbation, quite likely because society wants people to become workers and soldiers, not hippy bums. i know productive people who have a lot of sex, and unproductive people who aren't sexually active. For me, being a less fanatically active person, suppressing my sexuality a la BK celibacy was just turning down the dial even more. Your beliefs may suit you, but you may be right while the rest of humanity goes its way. And you can talk to your ideologically incestuous friends and agree about everything, but look around. NOBODY ACTS OR BELIEVES THE THINGS YOU DO. So as BKs, we say, we're right, the rest are ignorant, like you say about Tete, tho she knows more about love and children that you ever will if you keep going in the same direction you're going now. The reason that one-size-fits-all theories like yours and the BKs are so toxic is because they try to fit everyone to the same shape, even if they need to cut off the person's legs, a la Procrustes, who invited guests to sleep in the guest room, trimming them to fit if necessary. That is why any truly supportive analyst or therapist cannot belong to any 'ism; you cannot support a person if your are trying to move them toward a rigid ideal. You will be lucky to fall in love with someone who believes none of your theories, says you're full of it, just loves you for who are. And then you'll have a choice: do I love a person, or dead theories without enough energy to fill a grasshopper's lungs once. probably you remind me of something i don't like in myself or i wouldn't be going off the deep end, all rude and probably as judgmental as you. I'm sorry if your only consort is the dead ideas of people long gone, whose writings are only a shadow of the wisdom of their actual lives. i'm sure there must be much in your life that is vital and powerful, and hope to encounter it somehow, if I can be open to receive it.
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
Joel wrote:
William Burroughs used heroin, which is way more feel-good chemicals than involved in love and sex, and lived into his eighties. Didn't maim or kill him.
But it didn't do his wife's health much good ... or was that the benzedrines and alcohol?
Joel wrote:
Somehow your canned Bk responses push a button in me.
None of what I write is in any way " BK responses ", except when objectively defining what B.K. is, of course. There is life before and after a B.K. interlude. Hang on while I hold up that full length mirror for you again ... I was just about to post a topic on how " America " is the biggest, most dangerous and most damaging mind control cult on the planet right now; aside from the slur of pop psychological moral subjectivism. What it means, what it contains and how it is being used as a tool to erode the spirit of humanity. Don't worry Joel, I don't take it personally. It is just the Spirit of Lust possessing and working through you to attack the Light. You assigned values in an attack against Arjuna that were entirely unfounded in his words and projective to suit your own position and indulgence. Of course, I would defend anyone against that. Did you ever really get on top of sex lust during your time in the B.Ks and for how long? As an aside, I wonder what the sexual awareness and experience of the average Indian is? Any Bharatwassis, ex-B.K. or not care to comment? I think, as with the Far East, it entertains a very different and much more shallow position in their lives than it does so heavily ingrained into our minds and exploitated by Mammonite forces as it is in the Western tradition whether by hardcore Porno at one extreme or softcore New Age at the other. I don't imagine one can fit a full on Tantra session into a couple of hours in a love hotel and more than I can believe there is much pleasure to however the majority peasant classes procreate when there are 7 children sharing the same room and may be a 75 : 25 chance on one or both parties dying at child birth. Ex-L
Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 |
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
ex-london wrote:
Joel wrote:
William Burroughs used heroin, which is way more feel-good chemicals than involved in love and sex, and lived into his eighties. Didn't maim or kill him.
But it didn't do his wife's health much good ... or was that the benzedrines and alcohol?
I believe he shot his wife.
Quote:
Joel wrote:
Somehow your canned Bk responses push a button in me.
None of what I write is in any way " BK responses ", except when objectively defining what B.K. is, of course. There is life before and after a B.K. interlude.
Well, your attitude that childbearing is essentially animalist, and that childraising is aspiritual, sounds rather BK'ish to me:
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Honestly, childbearing is hardly any more unique than taking a poop and require no more intelligence or " spirituality " and physical procreation is quite base and animalistic.
Are you saying for everyone in the whole world? Even the BKs admit that procreation can be beautiful union, and childraising a joyous process... that is the experience for many in the world right now.
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Put to right use, not having children and following celebacy DOES release huge resources within the individual that COULD be put to better use.
"Better" according to who? Do you see how when you say "better" it assumes you are in a position to judge what is better for someone elses life? Didi Manmohini was a mother, and she will be (according to the BKs) above Christ and Buddha on the world ladder. Not so bad! I'm not a follower of that group, but whatever you believe about the Golden Age, she was definitely a nice, and I found to be spiritual, person. I hear Dadi Janki also had a child or two, and seems to be spiritual in many's point of view, certainly having abundant energy for her spiritual practices. You know she wears sandals in even the coldest weather... no socks! Having children offers the person a unique opportunity to face the issues they suffered through when they were children from the other role, and to learn and grow a great deal. Young children don't behave according to their parents' expectations. They are clever, natural experts in social calculus. They will manipulate their parents, which is why parents benefit from having grandarents and others who've been around long enough to know not to be fooled. Parenting is a great art, no less than the parenting that Brahma Baba (another parent who was sufficiently spiritual IMO) gave to his children, both through his marriage (what about his wife? do we know much about her?) and the parenting he gave to his spiritual children. The Om Mandali school was also a school, attended by children who were boarded, and also parented by the adults, a fulfilling experience for them, certainly not a waste. Ask most people if their lives were enriched by the experience of having children. What do you think they will say? Now are they right about their lives, or are you right that they had better have devoted their resources to another purpose?
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A 21 years, 24 / 7, 250,000 Dollars investment with no guaranties that all you might get out of it is a racist, rapist, arch-capitalist, dope head anarchist drop out or whatever ... if you were a business advisor, would you advise me to invest?
This is the kind of heart-absent argument I heard frequently during my lengthy tenure with the BKs. By the way I was celibate, and practiced many other spiritual disciplines with my whole heart and soul. Here is one lesson I learned: to believe that by constraining your life in one direction you will expand your life's creativity in another and to practice such beliefs is an act of faith: there is no guarantee of a result. For those who it does not help, we BKs have an (unsatisfying IMO) answer: such was their karma... as tho their is no hope of them finding another path. As tho their own size and definition of spiritual fits all. Since leaving the BKs and their disciplines, guess what? My soul is still intact, I am more of myself. Sorry to disappoint the BKs who expect a fall, or that I am "using up my good karma." I don't need to answer to your interpretations. Today I am more myself, more physically more capable than I was ten years ago, when I left the BKs. Before leaving off BK disciplines I interviewed many people to help determine if sexual activity or alcohol consumption was the deciding factor in a person's spiritual growth. I found many examples of people for whom the two seemed not to be mutually exclusive. Inner factors such as guilt, self-doubt, self-hate have been far more toxic, damaging to my spirit than I believe any than any night of sexual activity or drinking. All my years of discipline, meditation, awareness of myself as spirit did not touch certain deeply injured places in my self. I could see that clearly in my dreams, which I took as a significant indicator of my spiritual state, and many other aspects of my life.
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Nevermind the lost opportunity for individual spiritual growth.
In my opinion there is no life activity that is necessarily and a-priori determinate to be devoid of the breath of life and love and fullness of the human spirit. In aggregate, soldiers and shoppers may be destroying the existing ecosystems of the planet, but any given individual may be full of compassion, more mature than yourself Ex-London, or I. In fact, I'm sure that if you looked, you could find a parent, a meat-eater, a weekend beer-drinking barbequer who watches American football and is sexually active, who is more mature and more spiritual than yourself. Well, perhaps, perhaps not. I found such people, and wasn't convinced that they are simply souls with a full battery that is running down, and they will soon be punished by AIDs, fear of police, demon children, and being torn apart with burning regret in the subtle regions. Now I am speaking to some BK arguments and PsOV that you have not specifically raised, E.L. I don't mean to set up a straw Buddha. Feel free to own whatever your articles of faith and belief are.
Quote:
Hang on while I hold up that full length mirror for you again ... I was just about to post a topic on how " America " is the biggest, most dangerous and most damaging mind control cult on the planet right now; aside from the slur of pop psychological moral subjectivism. What it means, what it contains and how it is being used as a tool to erode the spirit of humanity.
How is holding a mirror to America holding a mirror to me? I would agree that the nation is in the midst of an extremely destructive period. I would generally agree with what you say, although my friends from Italy and Georgia recently told me how much they love America... that after WWII the countries occuped by the US became wealthy, whereas those occupied by the USSR became destitute. The guy from Georgia talked about how even to play music and to sing was illegal. He talked about what an advance it was, the sheer allowing a person to criticize the government. I was tending to criticize the US, and they to support. In my recent thinking I work to explain the big picture of the trends of human society without referring or blaming a specific country or individual. After all, it is not the US that has deforested the Indian subcontinent, although they've done many other bad things.
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Don't worry Joel, I don't take it personally. It is just the Spirit of Lust possessing and working through you to attack the Light.
Thanks, and you are the spawn of Satan, too. You know, they say Satan gives the most moving religious discourses.
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You assigned values in an attack against Arjuna that were entirely unfounded in his words and projective to suit your own position and indulgence. Of course, I would defend anyone against that. Did you ever really get on top of sex lust during your time in the B.Ks and for how long?
I will be pleased to discuss it, including admitting fault and apologizing for something rude or unfair, if it matters enough to you to quote it or include a link.
Quote:
As an aside, I wonder what the sexual awareness and experience of the average Indian is? Any Bharatwassis, ex-B.K. or not care to comment? I think, as with the Far East, it entertains a very different and much more shallow position in their lives than it does so heavily ingrained into our minds and exploitated by Mammonite forces as it is in the Western tradition whether by hardcore Porno at one extreme or softcore New Age at the other. I don't imagine one can fit a full on Tantra session into a couple of hours in a love hotel and more than I can believe there is much pleasure to however the majority peasant classes procreate when there are 7 children sharing the same room and may be a 75 : 25 chance on one or both parties dying at child birth.
Well, there is no doubt in my mind that Brahma Baba and the spiritual path he and his/our guide exemplified was a lifeline to women trapped in system of forced marriage. The evils of hotels, btw, is another popular topic among faithful BKs.
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Ex-L
ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 |
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Art, even great art, is also "wasteful" |
Joel wrote:
William Burroughs used heroin, which is way more feel-good chemicals than involved in love and sex, and lived into his eighties. Didn't maim or kill him.
ex-london wrote:
But it didn't do his wife's health much good ... or was that the benzedrines and alcohol?
I believe he shot his wife.
My point being, the drug addled brain under the influence of the above.
Joel wrote:
Somehow your canned BK responses push a button in me.
ex-london wrote:
None of what I write is in any way " BK responses ", except when objectively defining what B.K. is, of course. There is life before and after a B.K. interlude.
Well, your attitude that childbearing is essentially animalist, and that childraising is aspiritual, sounds rather BK'ish to me:
Animalistic, please. Animalist has two rather more extreme definitions. At least one that probably would not pass the censors here! And yes, of course I would defend the former statement from a non-B.K. point of view; and farmyard animals from the latter. This thread seems to segue into other issues being raised elsewhere and so I will pick it up in a single topic. Not least because they both involve a degree of personal attack on me. See ; " Sex, Lies and Murli Songs ".
Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 |
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Two cents short! |
Tete wrote:
Atma, Just wanted to point out that I have been waiting to see your two cents on the topic you started back in April 2005. Almost a year late and still two cents short! Still waiting.... Tete
Thanks for the reminder Tete. My tardiness cannot be forgiven. Anyway, here goes: Pros of celibacy: * Avoids risk of unwanted pregnancies * Avoids risk of contracting STD's - some of these are now incurable and some are life threatening * May result in more energy. This I feel is not a bio-physical effect of "tightening the sump nut" but rather it is a psychological effect. In other words, celibacy is not just not having sex but it involves taking the mind and emotions off of the sexual plane. Doing that, may free up a lot of psychic energy and the individual feels energised and seldom gets tired. Most of us may agree that during our 'brahmacharya' days in gyan we had boundless energy. * That 'taking the mind off of the sexual plane' may enable the individual's love to blossom out to something broader and more universal. In other words, since he or she is not focussed on 'scoring' with a member of the opposite sex (oops! these days it may even be same gender ) the person radiates (and experiences) a platonic love towards adults, children and even animals. Cons of celibacy: * Deprives the individual of the physical and emotional pleasures of lovemaking * That deprivation may result in frustration, embarassing wet dreams, irritibility and (for gentlemen) 'blue balls' (Har har ) * There are now medical / scientific reports (can't get my hands on them at the moment) that purport to show that enforced celibacy may actually precipitate physical harm, including prostate cancer * If the 'mind' is not truly celibate then - ironically - physical celibacy can actually cause a mental obsession with sex. The individual may be plagued with sexual thoughts and images - even in sleep / dreams. This is actually borne out by testimony of people who tried celibacy as a lifestyle. We have also seen the neurotic behaviour of some BKs. They become mean - as if that is their way of feeling empowered or compensating for lack or physical intimacy. There you have it Tete! That's all I can think of for now - my 2 cents
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