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common sense
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply to Joel

In reply to primal.logic's post "Reductionism", in XBK Discussions, Joel wrote:

Quote:
"What really irked me about R's case was learning that she had tried desperately to get an audience with Dadi Janki, who had for some reason (????) refused to make time for her."


Sorry, I know first hand another version of the story. Ranjana has been a very close friend of mine (I still remember her birthday: November 13...). We had a discussion quite sometime after her first attempt (yes, she died on the second attempt). She told me that during her recovery she received so much love and care from the BKs and Dadi, that she was feeling she was floating in light (in her own words).I could see that she was depressed, but also that she was still considering herself a BK. So I suggested she should speak with DJ. Her reply was that she did not feel like it, she was too embarrassed to do so. Much later, after her suicide, in another visit to London I asked Dadi Janki how did this happen, and Dadi with a lot of pain in her voice, said: "If only she had come to me... She never did".
satish



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject:

Hi

You have completely different story to tell and you could be right. However Ranjana's sucide was very tragic. May be she looked to be too depressed out of Gyan, effort or some other her personal reason. And circumstances can be anything but Ranjana's and her brother's are sorrowful incidents.

Well we BKs (shouldn't we?) feel responsible for such incidents and see that this would never come across in BK world.
However your post is appreciated, trying to get the facts to others.

thanks
satish
Joel



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: Reply to Joel

common sense wrote:
In reply to primal.logic's post "Reductionism", in XBK Discussions, Joel wrote:

Quote:
"What really irked me about R's case was learning that she had tried desperately to get an audience with Dadi Janki, who had for some reason (????) refused to make time for her."


Sorry, I know first hand another version of the story. Ranjana has been a very close friend of mine (I still remember her birthday: November 13...). We had a discussion quite sometime after her first attempt (yes, she died on the second attempt). She told me that during her recovery she received so much love and care from the BKs and Dadi, that she was feeling she was floating in light (in her own words).I could see that she was depressed, but also that she was still considering herself a BK. So I suggested she should speak with DJ. Her reply was that she did not feel like it, she was too embarrassed to do so. Much later, after her suicide, in another visit to London I asked Dadi Janki how did this happen, and Dadi with a lot of pain in her voice, said: "If only she had come to me... She never did".


Another account can only add perspective. I had had difficulties with depressive students/followers, and made a trip to London with the express purpose to ask about what had transpired. I didn't ask Dadi Janki directly but spoke with several of the western BKs.

Whatever the particulars about her last days, I was disturbed by the lack of news. I expected an official announcement: "One of Baba's dear children from the early days in London who had been troubled for many years has ended her life. Then something of her story. Then, if any of your brothers/sisters are depressed or speak of suicide, it is imperative that you refer them to a qualified therapist...." Instead, it was business as usual.

Among the BKs there is a taboo on speaking anything that could be construed as bad news. This is considered to be spreading negativity, pulling people away from God.

My experience visiting 12-step groups... this was while I was still an active BK--running a center--was that speaking of messy issues at the heart of our emotional lives could be healthy, liberating, empowering. This was a HUGE contrast to the code of silence I had lived with, in which we were encouraged to confine discussion of our inner pain and struggles to "senior instruments" while putting on a positive face for the rest of the world. It really was a taboo! One of our XBK posters from Brazil has written of her difficulty in even mentioning the name of BKWSU to her therapist for fear of injuring the group's reputation. At my time of leaving I had only a couple people in which I could confide.

So it quite an awakening to find the veteran 12-steppers to be more mature, direct and honest than myself, at the place I was after ten years of what I believed to be the highest level of spiritual practice, occupying the full extent of my personal and financial dedication, and based on what I believed to be spiritual knowledge more clear and comprehensive than ever existed at any time in recorded history.

Something was obviously wrong.... it was that I had seen the unhealthy side of BK knowledge, practices and culture.

For the sake of discussion here, and the future, I will mention that if someone speaks of suicide, or refers to it indirectly, you can ask four questions (even of yourself) to clarify how serious the situation is:

1. Have you thought of ending your life?

2. Have you made a plan for HOW you will do it?

3. Have you acquired the MEANS to perform this act?

4. Have you planned a TIME for it?

An excellent resource on suicide is this page:

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/serious.htm

It is written so compassonately, beginning with if you are thinking of committing suicide, please give yourself 5 minutes to read this.

So, thank you for your response, C.S. I hope the BK family can take the lessons to be learned from the loss of this person you knew closely.
Tete



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: AMEN!!!

Joel,

I think you did an excellent reply with very important information that may very wll help some one in need.

One thing that bothers me in all these discussions is the fact that some one would say "she died on the second attempt" and not questions why the Seniors didn't get help for her after the "FIRST". Human fraility shouldn't be shameful...the shame is in doing nothing. More so when the torment is caused by some of the very teachings/tenets of Gyan. History will judge us on our actions and in our failure to act.

I have read many of your posts about your concern for those under your watch and I have truly been impressed by your empathy/care/love that you showed for your students when they came into crisis. The fact that you continue to shed light on the problem is a truly loving human trait that demands change for the better.

One suicide is one too many.....

Regards,

Tete
bluewing



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: end of life..

Dear all,

I must say that I have thought of suicide a few times myself but NEVER one step foward of how and when, simply because sometimes 'life' as we learned in gyan and after gyan did not make any sense at all, you are not 'suppose' to have friends, lovers, to feel love, to have things, money, and worst of all: how can you make plans for your life if destruction is always about to happen???? how many times did we hear: this is the last year to make efforts.....if we are beings that are creating every second of our lives through our thoughts, etc...how and why would one could create a second ahead with these daily remarks? this is living life in the future: golden Age, because even the Confluence Age is really bad!!! Sorry, I didn't mean to be so negative, but I still have difficulties in finding or even chosing a "profesional' life for my earnings or to even have a 'passion' that people talk about it...I never went to see a phycologist or a professional to help me, do you think I should??
I am very happy to have you all, somehow we are connected...tks

Bluewing
ex-london



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply to Joel

common sense wrote:
Much later, after her suicide, in another visit to London I asked Dadi Janki how did this happen, and Dadi with a lot of pain in her voice, said: "If only she had come to me... She never did".


Its a funny old thing but according the The Knowledge (tm) why should " The Most Stable Mind in the World " Janki be feeling any emotion whatsoever?

It always made me wonder. Those folks talk all the time about detachment and " being stable in Drama " and then when the merest human thing happens, like a sister dying, they vomit emotion just like ordinary human beings. I remember when one of top SS died and they were all buckets of tears, quivery voices and long lamenting reminisces when, by theory, should not that have been happy - or " go eating halva " - when someone died? That there karma was done and they were off to another dimensions/life ...

Anyone else remember that quote?

" If your mother dies, go eat halva ", i.e. be happy, celebrate with a sweetie.

You know, I dont have time to go into this fully right now. I can only just pop my head around the corner from time to time. But there seems to be some conflict here in folks' minds that " spiritual life " should be like a really nice " ordinary life " and be measured by the idealistic values of " ordinary ", materialistic, Western lifestyle.

I am distinctly ex- but I would argue against that. " Spiritual Life ", - the term which needs to be defined - is not all sweetness and light. it is not meant to be all sweetness and life. One should not expect it to be " nice " at all. Just because the majority of B.K.s had the discipline to be relatively pleasant and sustain a measured social millieu, it would not obligate them to be a friend, or even for the trade of friendship to be a reasonable expectation within that milieu. Rather than criticise them, it is for those who see these lacks to create those support chains.

I would argue that " Spiritual Life " is far more guarantiably designed to kick the crap of you, break your soul entirely to pieces, reduce all that you thought you were and more to absolutely nothing - and then may be rebuild it, may be just use the open channel that was left.

It is boot camp not a touchie feelie Woodstock. And at boot camps there is collatoral damage and unfortunately accidents.

Personally, within this context, I do not criticise the B.K.s at all. If one woman crosses over their line of " in and out ", breaks their rules - as we have all done - and then pops herself, then trully I have come to think, it is not their responsibility.

In my opinion, where their irresponsibility lies is in advertising Raja Yoga as anything less than a spiritual boot camp and presenting it falsely in a way that is likely to attract individuals with different needs, e.g. " I need a family ", " I need a loving community ", " I need harmony and peace ".

I would not have any expectation of spiritual growth being created in comfort zones. Quite the opposite. And funnily enough, I think this trend in the B.K.s was created and sustain by the " us " on this forum and our contemporaries. Perhaps what we are doing here is deconstructing that for anyone who comes to read this and creating that support chain.

I have more thoughts on this matter for later, so excuse the half made argument.

ex-l
Tete



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: The will to live and finding purpose in life...post BK

Bluewing,

First, let me point out that you have been approved for posting in the "XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY":

Admin,

Quote:
The following members are invited to contribute to the private "XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY" forum:

bluewing

They may of course also write, where appropriate, in all other forums of XBKchat.


Others may offer their wisdom there to you and their personal experiences.

For others that may read this and may not be members here are some helpful links if you are having suicidal thoughts:

http://www.save.org/ This is on save.org: In an emergency Call 1-800--SUICIDE (1-800-784-2433) In your respected country seek out Mental Health Professionals or call your local operator and ask for a suicide hot line.
Quote:
If you feel suicidal -SEE A DOCTOR - There is help.
Your primary care doctor may be able to help or get help for you.

These below are resources:

http://www.spanusa.org/

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/suicideprevention/index.cfm

Click on the link to:Cognitive Therapy Reduces Repeat Suicide Attempts by 50 Percent


The point in listing the above resources is that there is hope, there are people devoted to helping others, the negative feelings will pass, with therapy and with mental health intervention things can look much better, be better and you can regain your life back. So, do seek out help, the fact that one asks is a good sign, and a sign that you are able to ask and receive help.

The journey of life is often difficult, but with support it can be wonderful again. Very Happy I worked with mental health consumers for many years and 80% of those consumers had at one time had thoughts. It is important to seek help. Never be ashamed to ask for help, you would be surprised at how many others have had similar thoughts, got help and went on to live full lives. I can honestly say that all the people that I worked with were special and that they taught me many things about lifeís many turns and today I am a better person for having worked with them.

Life will often come full circle in that those that have had such thoughts will often help those in need of help. There are support groups where others have worked through this. So, don't ever feel you can't ask for help from others who are in your support system. I realize that the issues some face here are unique (Gyan based and many therapists donít know about this;however, I believe it will help as many others here have recieved help by therapist/other professionals) and most will benefit from the experiences of others here, but it helps to have professional help as well.

In closing I would like to say that it is always important to tell those around us that we love them, how special they are to us, how we treasure moments shared and how we look forward to having many more memories with them.

My grandmother told me this:
Quote:
Love never told, does not exist because it was never known, never felt or embraced. Don't be ashamed to tell anyone you love them! It may change their lives and yours.


Regards,

Tete
zhukov



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject:

Joel wrote:
Among the BKs there is a taboo on speaking anything that could be construed as bad news. This is considered to be spreading negativity, pulling people away from God.




I can only agree wholeheartedly with this Joel. Having attempted suicide quite a few times and had come to the BKs with an awful desperation borne of many painful years, the fact that I was instructed to only "churn" the positive 'BK Knowledge' (TM) points over and over...this ridiculous 'taboo' will only make matters worse for anyone suffering from depression Shocked

Well with such a unrelenting negative mindset to begin with, I ended up 'churning' positive points so much to the point that the words became utterly meaningless thru sheer repetition; i was trying to inculcate what I was being "told" was the "only way" to find peace of mind. Try saying any word/phrase over & over and you will find it eventually loses all meaning whatsoever.

Its a pity they refuse to take responsibility for any damage done to the vulnerable...but then karma will always give them an "out" - its all your own fault if you fail to successfully believe the dogma! Rolling Eyes



You are absolutely spot there on about Cognitive Therapy, Tete Smile

The only thing that has made any kind of difference in my case...and it seems a relatively recent development in this country (Aust) anyway. I can't afford a therapist but books have helped a great deal Wink
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