Banishment from the BKWSU

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Banned from the BKWSU (was Ex-communication Policy)

Post13 Nov 2006

Ha!

I suppose you might say that this entirely website is "Ex-communication" but I have a serious question to ask others today.
    One of Baba's children told me that BK members were being threatened with "ex-communication" from the BKWSU if they were to leak any information about what is going on inside the BKWSU.
I do not know if this was universally being applied, if it was specific to one group or center, or this website.

I remember ex-communication being quietly discussed at my own center, I think in relationship to the Shankar Party, but I cannot see, find or know of any "official" policy. Erol from xBKChat was, of course, "bannished" by one BK Sister. It is strange because in the Murlis Baba is always talking about doing service to those that have left. Are there any Murli points? I suppose through lust or drinking it might be sensible but what about other breaches of Shrimat like Brahma worship and the financial stuff? Who can question the Seniors?
    Does anyone with more center experience than I know how and why this "ex-communication policy" is used?
    • Is it written down somewhere?
    • Is there any official appeal process?
    • How is it recorded?
    • Can anyone accuse another BK or just the Seniors?
It is daft really because if people are being frightened into silence under the fear of being discommunicated from "God", others are only going to ask, "what on earth is going on inside the BKWSU that they need to be so secretive about?".

I suppose it is correct to say that all the PBKs have been officially ex-communicated?
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Mr Green

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Post13 Nov 2006

i know that members are asked never to come back if drugs are found ... even marijuana :o.
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zhuk

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Post13 Nov 2006

I was ex-communicated after my (quite serious & concerned) "brainwashing" remark lol.

(and it wasn't by a senior :P)
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arjun

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Post14 Nov 2006

I suppose it is correct to say that all the PBKs have been officially ex-communicated?

Yes, but there are exceptions, where some nice/tolerant BK teachers allow some PBKs to attend the classes provided they do not give the Advanced Knowledge to other students. There are also cases where some supposedly rich or influential PBKs are allowed to attend classes to extract benefits.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post14 Nov 2006

Mr Green wrote:I know that members are asked never to come back if drugs are found ... even marijuana :o.

Personallly, I am not into drugs. But I really don't see them as any different from alcoholic use. Despite what the users say, use really damages and dulls the mind/intellect and creates a "strong ego" around the use of them. (And it is usually the wrong people that use them).

I remember in the early days of Raja Yoga in Australia, a Brother or two were dealing drugs before they came into Gyan and when they did, they had a large amount of drugs still left. I understand they decided to "purify" the money by selling it/them using all the proceeds to start BK service there. It was a bit of a joke. There was also an English Brother that sent drugs back to a center from India where they were cheap and caused the BKWSU a lot of problems with police etc. I don't know if he was going to use them or sell them or what.

But likewise, I know of a IP/VIP that the BKWSU were courting that smuggled a whiskey flask into Madhuban and I wonder what those BK VIP faces like Robin Gibb and Lynne Franks do. There has always been one rule for VIPs, one for Brahmins. Especially lowly BK Brahmins. Both VIPs did a load of champagne and drugs in their time, even Class A ones. Franks was still doing psychedelic mushrooms and things during her "New Age" phase not so long ago. I wonder if they have been told what the BKs expect of them? So, to me, it all looks to be more about public face and conservatism rather than real spiritual values.

On a scale of 1 to 10, what is worse; sex or drugs or alcohol? Shiva says "purity is number one" but I know loads of BKs have sex and are then asked or allowed back in after "confessing" - and some not confessing. Why are they not ex-communicated? Or what about those that fiddle the accounts? There was (at least) one very highly respected Sister that married a Brother - and they both stayed in Gyan.

Again, there seem to be a load of unwritten policies with no official appeal structure and it seems to be more about how useful you are within the organization or close to the senior Sisters that counts. Am I wrong? I am sorry but I think it is a bit of a mess that depends on BK's fear of ex-communication from God and so consequently not exposed. In my opinion, they have left the trully spiritual path to play the world government/VIP game and, are not doing either properly. To me, it seems to be that "Public Face" has become all important.

If the BKWSU are going to be a worldly organization/NGO, should they not have clear transparent policies anyone can see, records and checking systems that apply to all members equally? Why all the secret society and favoritism stuff? Personally, I think Dadi Janki should be judged for going against Shrimat all these years in a far worse way than some little Sister having a little smoke.
    • So does it just come down to the whim of the Sister that is center-in-charge? How does the system work?
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arjun

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Post14 Nov 2006

On a scale of 1 to 10, what is worse; sex or drugs or alcohol? Shiva says "purity is number one" but I know loads of BKs have sex and are then asked or allowed back in after "confessing" - and some not confessing. Why are they not ex-communicated? Or what about those that fiddle the accounts? There was (at least) one very highly respected Sister that married a Brother - and they both stayed in Gyan.

"Getting entangled in any bodily being through any thought or action, taking the vicious snake like body means destroying the income earned till now. However much experienced one may be in knowledge or in obtaining the power through remembrance, however service one may have done through his body, mind and body, but by touching this snake like body, just as poison kills a person, similarly this snake i.e. the poison of getting entangled in a body ends all the achievements and entire income. As stains appear on the register of past income, which is difficult to remove. Just as the fire of Yoga destroys the past sins, similarly the fire of experiencing the vicious pleasure destroys the past good deeds. Do not consider this matter to be a big mistake or sinful act under the influence of the resolves of the carelessness. They even describe it in such an ordinary way that I committed this mistake four or five times I shall not repeat it. Even while describing (one’s mistakes the form is not one of repentance, but it’s as if one is narrating an ordinary news. In the mind they think that this happens normally. The target is very high, how will it happen now.

But even then BapDada gives a warning to such sinful souls who bring disrepute to The Knowledge, that today onwards also if you do not destroy this mistake by thinking it to be a big mistake, then you will become entitled to a very harsh punishment. You will not be able to reach the high stage due to the weight of these repeated violations. They will stand in the line of repentors instead of the line of achievers. The achievers will be hailed as victorious and the eyes and face of the violators will cry ‘haay haay’ (cries of grief) and all the Brahmins who achieve everything will look at such souls in the line of those who bring disrepute to the race. The darkness of the sins performed by a person will be seen clearly from the face. That’s why now onwards consider this to be a huge mistake i.e. biggest mistake and repeat from your heart for your past mistakes, clarify it before the Father and remove your burden. Give harsh punishment to yourself so that you can avoid future punishments.

If you still hide (your mistakes) and try to manage things by proving yourself to be truthful, then this management of things means that in the end and even now you will keep shouting in your mind that what should I do, l do not experience happiness, I do not achieve success. I do not experience all the achievements. They will shout like this even now and in the end they will shout saying ‘oh my ill-luck’. So managing things now (by hook or by crook) means shouting repeatedly. If you manage things like this then you burn the great luck of many births. That’s why, pay special attention towards this special matter. Do not touch the poison filled snakes even in the thoughts. Touching the poison even in the thought means making oneself unconscious.
[Avyakt Vani dated 24.10.75 Pg-249, narrated through the medium of Gulzar Dadiji, translation done by a PBK]
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joel

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Excommunicating women for failed celibacy

Post14 Nov 2006

I know of one example where a woman who was living in a center in New England, nice Jewish looking with that alertness a lot of East Coast people have. Not all of the qualities of a SILF (I never would have used that langage at the time, wouldn't have admitted) nice person, educated, probably with her needy place that brought her into religio-cultic-enmeshment, saw her in a class here or there and then rode the bus together down Mt. Abu one year; unpleasant ride usually, but nice to talk to her and now a year or two later we meet with that good will, we were QBKs by then, she was an FBK (fallen BK) by then, she confessed, she had had some kind of dalliance. Was it a student?

She confessed to Sister Mohini of New York (whose mole disturbs me even decades afterwards). Sister Mohini's response at the time was to stop speaking and look away, the guillotine of ex-communication.

(Amazing, to take something like that and blow it out of proportion. Who is to say what is proportionate? The man with his hand on the trigger and his pedal to the metal?)

So, she was some how meeting her needs, had somehow gotten over that treatment, and now I am meeting her in Madhuban, amazing that she was still trying to fit in. Sympathetic, I could easily talk to her. Probably she was sensible enough to leave. A lot of us Western BKs had the feeling in those days that there was no longer a need for a code of silence; that it is okay to talk about any subject. To reach out to another is something holy, not harmful.

Sr. Mohini's (or BK's in general) use of excommunication is arguably less violent than that extreme of having crimes on the books for acts such as buggery (G.B.) or sodomy (U.S.) (In the day, Sodom must have been quite the lively pleasure quarter. )

So the legitimate appearing government is actually as bad, even worse than the BKs, as far as intolerance and punishment.

As a BK, I know that I used to regularly report on myself, that was how we had Baba look at our chart. It was explained that the senior Sisters to whom I confessed Dr. Nirmala, Dadi Janki primarily, would be as Baba. Baba's embodied instruments, for us. That is how we would relate to Baba in the flesh. So I did write to them in diplomatic language the sort of self-soiling behavior that had transpired.

I wrote quite a number of letters over the years to Dr. Nirmala, to Dadi Janki and to Baba directly to Madhuban. Dr. Nirmala told me that Nirwair reads those letters. We were offered the deal in the Murli that by telling about a sin, the burden would be reduced by half. I was full of zeal. For the spiritual seeker it is a too good a deal to miss. God's direct offer.

So I write my whole life story to Baba, including every sin that I can remember doing, or anything I felt shameful or bad about (or good about) in my entire life. It may still be on file in Madhuban.

I never got a direct answer about the, ah, self-pleasuring, ah, transgressions. Just encouragement to continue to have faith in Baba, etc. Dadi and Dr. Nirmala were definitely as Baba's intermediaries for us.

An interesting paradox was the idea that film songs (in Lehkraj's days) and BK-sponsored songs in my day were considered holy, while other music was considered sinful, worldly, attracting to vice.

So how did this kurta-pajama clad California kid with suppressed hormones react to seeing Janet Jackson-type sexuality, or Tina Turner sexuality? I knew it was catnip to me the whole time; only for a time I told myself that I could conquer it. The Motown divas frank sexuality was always an attractition.

--

In the world military, or in the BK's spiritual military, being caught masturbating is not a situation in which one expects to receive validation, unless from a lover participant. GI's learn to do it silently, without so much as a rustling of canvas. On family backpacking trips, I remember that I masturbated silently in the tent while my parents and older Brother slept nearby.

I find that an orgasm at night is comforting and helps me to sleep. If it can be with a lover who also enjoys ... usually better.

In BKs I was never caught, because I couldn't soil Madhuban by wanking there. I had that much discipline I repressed myself successfully enough so that one afternoon during nap, I felt the surge of fluids in me and grabbed my, uh, member to shut off the flow (cannot have the shame of soiling the sheets) and got up. It was about 3:40. I looked up from the bed. The other guys were all asleep. I could have been in the room with Reiner, the German. I do remember that the charismatic Brother of foundation Western BK Sister looking up at me. I tried to walk normally while holding my pipes closed, hoping the
hand was sufficiently concealed under the kurta tails.

Our eyes met as I walked on into the bathroom to release my seminal fluids.

Later, I learned his charisma allowed him to have many dalliances. Women just fell for him, and were ready to get down and dirty with him, right then and there.

I was never ex-communicated, but then did not try to maintain a connection with the BK family system with Madhuban and Baba as a support.

To me it is now almost inconceivable that I would have denied myself that way of comforting myself. The idea that sexuality would be be a trap that would make the person ever more corrupt is so far off from my experience as being a rich and central part of who I am.
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ex-l

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Re: Excommunicating women for failed celibacy

Post14 Nov 2006

joel wrote:Later, I learned his charisma allowed him to have many dalliances. Women just fell for him, and were ready to get down and dirty with him, right then and there.

Did Reiner leave the BKs or is he still around? I never realised that he was such a playboy. It makes you wonder which senior BK has not got a skeleton in the cupboard. I heard - but am waiting for confirmation - that some centers in the West had an almost "anything goes" policy but kept up the front for the general public.

Yup. A "spiritual man" is a big turn on for most women, so starved as they are of sensitivity and intelligence from your average "beer and football" jock. And I remember the writing letters to reduce your sins bit.
    What did happened to all those porno letter confessions?
I also remembering some poor BK Brother giving himself a really hard time because he had come to the Brother's house to be checked out on his suitability to go to Madhuban but had not been able to manage his relationship with his trouser snake properly and was beating himself up (not off) badly with guilt and shame because he had to go confess to the warm and motherly Sudesh and was then disallowed to go to Madhuban. Painful, it was a great shame really because it was obvious to anyone that he was slightly sub-normal on an education scale, i.e. that he was a bit "simple" as we say, and he really should not have been being put through the BK machine in the first place.

As you know, I fully agree with the place of celibacy on an ambitious "spiritual path". Even more, and especially, when it includes relationships between teachers and students.

As far as I am concerned, it is either an "In" or an "Out". Sex between unequals in a system is much more likely to be disasterous for all parties and under that circumstance, I would actually wholly agree with ex-communication to protect others and standards within. It is not a question of morals even, just practical safeguards. The abuse of trust and power is far worse than the act, even if the individuals were "serviceable" or "good PR" for the BKWSU. I wholly agree and respect the need of Maryadas for BK candidates. I just wish more of them would follow them!
    • I should expand on this later - but I would really like help at first defining what the BKWSU's policies of ex-communication are, how and who they are operated by.
It is strange, and I don't wholly believe, that the "God" is more concerned about who is getting off with who than, for example, which one of his center-in-charges are fiddling visa regulations. It always seemed to me that they see themselves entirely above national laws. At present, it seems to be that ex-communication is:
    entirely arbitrary
    unspoken or secretive
    full of personally favoritism on behalf of a little moral mafia of center or region-in-charges
    and possibly used to manipulate and control position within the organization.
And this not just for sex but for any "shame" brought upon the BK family, such as by the victims of sex abuse. It seems highly cultural rather than Gyani.

I agree confession is a useful psychological tool. But if they really read and store up all those written confession BKs are encouraged to make, it should be documented. What a job for BK Nirwair!

Typically, no one I asked could or would ever tell me what they did with them.
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john

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Post14 Nov 2006

Sakar Murli 16/03/04

"... It is not that you no longer commit sin at this time. Only at the end will you become conquerors of sin ..."
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Mr Green

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Post14 Nov 2006

Hey, I wrote one of those letters ... man, I almost expected to physically feel half the burden being lifted off once god had read it :lol: ... I thought it would actually allow me to stay awake in the early hours ... heheh

I actually went for a long time before ejaculation took place, it must have been at least 6 months before it started to go off at night ... man, the shame I used to feel with those sticky sheets in the morning.

I was propositioned in Madubhan once, by a Sister I had given the course to, "I am going to jump on you in a minute," she said ... Man, I quivered all the way to the shower :lol:.

I think a lot of falling in love takes place.
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ex-l

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Post14 Nov 2006

Mr Green wrote:I was propositioned in Madubhan once, by a Sister I had given the course to, "I am going to jump on you in a minute," she said ... Man, I quivered all the way to the shower :lol:.

I think a lot of falling in love takes place.

How very sweet ... I suppose in an illicit way it binds the BKs together. Of course, no one actually discusses it. I bet you regret running now! Do you think that perhaps you missed out one or two of the lessons? All those sitting under red lights in the warmth together, staring in each others eyes I'd say ... what did you teach? The formal 7 Days Course or some New Agey version that missed out the tough stuff? So,
    a) did you find any handy relief from God reading your letter?
    b) as a teacher were you ever informed about ex-communcation or given the power to do it?
    c) how does it differ center to center?
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joel

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Post15 Nov 2006

Mr Green wrote:I was propositioned in Madubhan once, by a Sister I had given the course to, "I am going to jump on you in a minute," she said ... Man, I quivered all the way to the shower :lol:. I think a lot of falling in love takes place.

Abstinence, some say, is the greatest aphrodisiac.
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Mr Green

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Post15 Nov 2006

a) No, I found no relief at all in sending my letter, it was quite emotional and stirring to write it which some may claim to be therapeutic but I am not sure.

b) At my centre we tended to accept anyone and banishing people was never really an issue. We never had anyone really bad I suppose. We had an alcoholic come quite regularly who used to doze off when you spoke to him but nothing worse ... the only person I was involved in telling not to come to the centre was one of many who developed mental illness, and thought she was communicating directly with god (where have i heard that before?).

c) I think most that are sent away are not really talked about, it's all done very quietly.
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arjun

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Post15 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:Shiva says "purity is number one" but I know loads of BKs have sex and are then asked or allowed back in after "confessing" - and some not confessing. Why are they not ex-communicated? Or what about those that fiddle the accounts? There was (at least) one very highly respected Sister that married a Brother - and they both stayed in Gyan.

Omshanti. While I was a BK (Godly as well as lokik student) one of my BK friends (a Kumar, i.e. unmarried male BK) complained to me how his BK teacher refused permission to him to visit Mt. Abu while she was more than happy to take another BK to Mt. Abu (to meet BapDada), who had got married around that time and his wife was pregnant with his child. Obviously, he understood how purity was being sidelined as the first criteria for visiting Mount Abu (to meet BapDada).

During my many years with the BKs, I had the honour of enjoying many of the parties (Thursday/Sunday special bhogs/Brahma bhojans) organized in connection with the marriage of the lokik/Gyani children of BK couples. At that time I, like many other innocent BKs, never found anything wrong, due to the band of cloth that I had tied on my eyes like Queen Gandhari of the Mahabharata fame.

I know of one of my BK friends who used to live at the BK center for many years since his childhood and recently got married to one of the surrendered BK Sisters. But I don't know if their lokik family grew beyond that number.

While doing the service of giving Advanced Knowledge in north India, I came in contact with a BK couple (the wife was a surrendered BK teacher while the Brother was a BK Kumar before marriage). They had two daughters, one of whom died some years ago. The above BK couple repented their decision to have become impure and have since been running a BK gitapathshala as well as a lokik school at their home.

As far as I know some PBKs have also gone on to marry and have children, but I am not aware how many of them returned to become a PBK. I have only heard that even if someone wishes to return he/she has to undergo the bhatti once again.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun.
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ex-l

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Post15 Nov 2006

arjun wrote:Omshanti. While I was a BK (Godly as well as lokik student) one of my BK friends (a Kumar, i.e. unmarried male BK) complained to me how his BK teacher refused permission to him to visit Mt. Abu while she was more than happy to take another BK to Mt. Abu (to meet BapDada), who had got married around that time and his wife was pregnant with his child. Obviously, he understood how purity was being sidelined as the first criteria for visiting Mount Abu (to meet BapDada).

I am not going to comdemn anyone. We are all still human. It is unfortunate but we are all still weak and impure. The joys of parenthood or relationships are no heaven these days, I will be the first to admit, and so I am not advertising that path.

But for me, the real issues here are;
    a) a lack of clarity and transparency in the BKWSU system, when they are selling themselves on such high standards to newcomers.
    b) the inequalities, e.g. sister-in-charges being left to ex-communicate on personal whim without any appeal, Brother getting it worse.
    c) the emphasis on "public face" and "self-interest" of the organization, by which I mean "one rule for the rich and one for the poor"
    .
In the West we are sold "a perfect superior religion full of celibate angels". The reality is quite different.

I too remember stories of the contradictions practised. Of [I have to approximate the details here to illustrate as I cannot remember 100%] BK Brahmins being in Gyan "15 years" but having a "7, 9 and 11" year old children ... and being told that "Baba had given a touching to make another Brahmin". The reliable source was a good old BK that is still very loyal to the BKWSU.

I just think that newcomers ought to be pre-warned about all this and encouraged to be brave and ask. I still think that a lowly BK making a human mistake is fair less of a criminal than Seniors going against Shrimat or the law year and after year.
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