Gay BKs

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Gay BKs

Post26 Jun 2007

heshe wrote:Seemingly he (Lee James) is openly gay.

Gay or camp?

I'd say you have to be sexually active to be gay (at least by desire) but that even a heterosexual can be camp. A gay celibate, or a very camp celibate?

How do the Seniors/Indians take to those qualities?
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paulkershaw

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Post26 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:Gay or camp? I'd say you have to be sexually active to be gay (at least by desire) but that even a heterosexual can be camp. A gay celibate, or a very camp celibate? How do the Seniors/Indians take to those qualities?

Many seemed to love this aspect in me - told me that I had total balance of both male and female sanskars ... and, locally, some of the Sisters used to confide in me "with some lovely sharing" stuff. I used to 'drag' it up in Madhuban - got them all up and exercising whilst I was on the stage, I did, including Jayanti and DJ ... Fame still eludes me though ...

:roll:
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ex-l

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Post26 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:I used to 'drag' it up in Madhuban

Do you mean put on a sari?

It would be an interesting equation if BKWSU are to agree that the parfect balance of male and female sanskars are to be found in gays rather than straights.

We can look forward to a very camp Golden Age then!
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Mr Green

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Post26 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:Gay or camp? ... How do the Seniors/Indians take to those qualities?

You mean you haven't noticed the common thread between all the accepted Brothers !!!!!!!!!!!!!! The ones considered safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charlie Hogg? Lee James? That Greek one!!??? (cannot remember his name off the top of my head, he's had a book published ... Stavros??) Mike George?? Julius?? Ken??

'I just don't feel threatened by them!'

All these guy sit down to wee
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abrahma kumar

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Well, well well

Post26 Jun 2007

mr green wrote:You mean you haven't noticed the common thread between all the accepted Brothers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While I have nothing affirmative nor negative to add to this discussion I am taken aback on at least 3 counts. Confession time so bear with me please.
    1. As a BKWSU student I always chide myself when i feel those little question marks popping up in my mind in response to what one might call 'camp' or 'effete' behaviour or mannerisms that can be observed in some male BKs (I use the word 'effete' to reflect a certain "over-refinement").

    2. As a personal rule that I do not ever violate, I regard the matter of homosexuality as one that I, being a heterosexual man, may never fully understand. However i accept that homosexuality is a part of the human condition and so I can not stand in judgement of any other human. I do not even REALLY know what it is that makes me heterosexual. So to each his/her own - consenting adults and all that stuff.

    3. Yesterday and then again this morning as i was reviewing my forum existence in relation to the "Young, Gifted and Black in the BKWSU" topic I was musing about this gay issue/experience. To find an opening into the topic taken up here is really, really uncanny.
    So thanks guys i will go over there and post something.
This forum is amazing. Countless times I have witnessed drama unfolding to reveal that we really are all connected in very subtle but nonetheless REAL way. Long may it continue.

Did we mean: Brother Anthony who is connected to Greece?
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Mr Green

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Post26 Jun 2007

Yes, Anthony. That's the one :wink:.
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ex-l

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Re: Well, well well

Post26 Jun 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:Did we mean: Brother Anthony who is connected to Greece?

Anthony Strano. Definitely had births in Ancient Greece, so may be ... ;-). For someone that was genuinely intellectual and well read, his books were a considerable disappointment for me. Sop. There was that Australian pianist as well ... did he stick Gyan out?

I never really thought about this. I do not think it is a universal equation. I would say that on become BK in the West being and acting effete was encouraged and acceptable for the men. I blame all those lacey doilies and teacloths used for Bhog dishes and single sex 'Avyakt dancing'.

I also saw the same thing in Bhakti circles, e.g. blokes enjoying washing and dressing up Krishna statues, which were just really dolls. Manly men, facial hair ... ? I was pretty unaware of any underlying sexual tensions and did not think about them. I might even have been a little bit soul-conscious.
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joel

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Re: Well, well well

Post26 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:Anthony Strano. Definitely had births in Ancient Greece, so may be ... ;-). For someone that was genuinely intellectual and well read, his books were a considerable disappointment for me. Sop. There was that Australian pianist as well ... did he stick Gyan out?

That would be Mark.
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paulkershaw

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Post28 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:Do you mean put on a sari? It would be an interesting equation if BKWSU are to agree that the parfect balance of male and female sanskars are to be found in gays rather than straights.

Looks like I've outed myself big time! Now many will know who I am ...

Yeah - during talent night or entertainment night or whatever it was called, got all dressed up as Gloria GAYnor and lipsynch to old club hits! My favourite : "I will Survive" - now wasn't that a fortunate (and pre-cognitive) ironic song to sing?

Had DJ on the edge of her seat, I never, ever, saw her laughing and clapping at any other time but that.

"At first I was afraid ... I was petrified ..."

ex-l wrote:We can look forward to a very camp Golden Age then

(Tongue in cheek comment:) Queens Rule, this is why some of the GGB (Gay Gyani Boys) rise to the top of their field. They have the agenda of taking over 'in the end' ... Its probably the thought process that they'll eventually wear silken undies that keeps them going ...

Heheheehehe
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paulkershaw

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Post28 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:It would be an interesting equation if BKWSU are to agree that the parfect balance of male and female sanskars are to be found in gays rather than straights.

Actually, I feel that its everyone's journey to bring balance to the self and also create balance of Yin and Yang or male and female energies together.

This does not have to do with sexuality at all but rather the 'journey' within' that every soul/person makes. Its too easy to define someone as 'gay', because they are camp, or 'nasty', because they may be tough acting and speaking. I am asking for comment here when I say that I feel we 'define' ourselves by defining or 'labelling' others - heaven knows how much humanity has suffered throughout the ages because of this.

Is not the New Age we speak of, one of absolute harmony not only on an external level but on an inner harmony and balanced level too?
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heshe

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Post28 Jun 2007

Cant wait for those gossamer saris, dressing up in jewlery and dancing the night away :wink:.
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abrahma kumar

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About perfect balance of male and female sanskars...

Post28 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:It would be an interesting equation if BKWSU are to agree that the parfect balance of male and female sanskars are to be found in gays rather than straights. We can look forward to a very camp Golden Age then!

Interesting point which sets me wondering whether the 'gaiety' we witness at this point in The Cycle can, in any way, be an 'accurate' reflection of that "perfect balance of male and female sanskars". And if it is not, could it be because of the "unbalanced" heterosexual-dominant perspectives that abound in much of the world?

And if gays are working more "openly" to attain that balance, why is it a matter that gives rise to such impassioned negative reactions in society at large?

If there is a possibility that attaining gender and sexual balance is an intrinsic part of the soul's journey - maybe not for all of us through homosexual experience - then why do not we souls evidence "instinctive sanskars of natural acceptance"?

Maybe what i am asking is whether we humans have advanced enough to create and nurture an earthly existence in which all consensual, non-exploitative, expressions of sexual energy is embraced wholeheartedly.
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joel

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Re: About perfect balance of male and female sanskars...

Post28 Jun 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:Maybe what I am asking is whether we humans have advanced enough to create and nurture an earthly existence in which all consensual, non-exploitative, expressions of sexual energy is embraced wholeheartedly.

I think there have been instances of loving exchange of sexual energy throughout human history. Whether one is "advanced" enough for such ... that sounds like an individual question. Many XBKs and NBKs find that the intense desires, sensations and feelings that accompany erotic intimacy can co-exist in ourselves with the respect, sensitivity and caring that nourish a loving relationship.

BKWSU tends to differentiate: according to them intense feelings toward God uplift, whereas intense feelings toward humans degrade. Perhaps within the BK tradition there will develop a mystical tradition of embracing all aspects of the self as divine, analogous to the way the broad-minded and mystical Sufis exist within the Islamic tradition.
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paulkershaw

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Re: About perfect balance of male and female sanskars...

Post28 Jun 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:And if gays are working more "openly" to attain that balance why is it a matter that gives rise to such impassioned negative reactions in society at large? If there is a possibility that attaining gender and sexual balance is an intrinsic part of the soul's journey - maybe not for all of us through homosexual experience - then why do not we souls evidence "instinctive sanskars of natural acceptance"?

This always opens up interesting debate. My realisation of this experience, in my country and in many places that I have visited aroud the world, really depends on the consciousness of the population. For instance, go off to Thailand and the only people who stare at an effeminate male are the (foreign) tourists. Many of the Asian countries also don't seem to have anti-gay (or anti-gay sex) laws in place either, in direct contrast to others.

In my own realisations, I have recognised that people act up against these things simply because they have fear of acknowledging something that exists within them. I say "It takes one to know one" ( :roll: ) - a case being that I do present myself as a 'regular' kinda guy where most people are happy to chat and interact with me but often as soon as the 'I am gay' bit comes up - a whiter shade of pale sets in.

Many of these people with the negative reactions are biased/racist/sexist in many other ways too and all 'resonate' to what they believe a 'real man' should be ... but certainly do not present themselves physically; emotionally or mentally as what I perceive balance to be.

Another argument that often arises is something that came up when South Africa was recently debating the issues of same-sex marriage (which has been now legalized) because being gay is supposedely un-African! So it could be a secular belief system that gets installed as 'the truth' in particular communites or societies.

On the question of balanced 'male/female sanskaras', I must say that for me, its an absolute pleasure to be around a heterosexual male who is secure in his own sexuality and has no fear of embracing anyone, regardless of colour, creed, sexuality etc.

During my BK time, I never realy encounterd this kind of bias at all but, there again, when one is celibate then we're all in the same boat. I just love the reasoning a local church group gave when they (just last week) debated about allowing gay clergy onto the pulpit. They approved it, but stated that the clergyman would have to be celibate in order to lead the congregation. When asked if their heterosexual counterparts were celibate, the answer was given, "No of course not, that's different" and that folks sums it all up. "If you're different, you're wrong so conform or we won't let you be part."

Not so too in much of BK life too methinks ...
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abrahma kumar

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Re: About perfect balance of male and female sanskars...

Post28 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:... Many of these people with the negative reactions are biased/racist/sexist in many other ways too and all 'resonate' to what they believe a 'real man' should be ... but certainly do not present themselves physically; emotionally or mentally as what I perceive balance to be. ... Another argument that often arises is something that came up when South Africa was recently debating the issues of same-sex marriage (which has been now legalized) because being gay is supposedely un-African! So it could be a secular belief system that gets installed as 'the truth' in particular communites or societies.

Thanks Paul. Much appreciate your feedback in general and in particular on the oblox that "supposedly being gay is un-African". Without doubt this is nonsense but yet still it is a myth that prevails wherever the Afican finds himself (herself?). I had posted something on the Young, Gifted and Black Poll exploring this among other things.

We will talk some more, especially I'd like to explore whether such oblox eases/hinders or has no impact at all on someone's spuiritual journey. I was a little concerned that my own churing on these sorts of issues fell into social rather than spiritual 'studies'.
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