A few questions for 'teachers' of the 7 Day Course

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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jim brady

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A few questions for 'teachers' of the 7 Day Course

Post15 Jul 2007

Some of the questions I would like to ask veteran BKs or those who give the 7 day course would be the following:

    1. Do you ever tell students about the child abuse cover up (no different from any other religion) from quite recently and advise them to give eromain’s epic a jolly good read before they proceed any further with this lifestyle change?

    2. Do you tell students about the repeatedly revised population figures or do you just say nothing and hope they never find out about it all till they're in too deep to be shaken by the shame of such a u-turn?

    3. Do you tell students about the re-editing of Murlis, do you tell them about the old Murlis that do not even exist, do you give them the full chronology, or do you even know yourself?

    4. Do you ever mention the Shankar party, the whole history of the split and the bad feeling between the two warring factions?

    5. Do you tell students about the 1976 non-event (and all the other false starts) or do you even have any solid information on it for them to churn?

    6. Do you ever tell students about all those BKs and ex-bks who have given up careers over the years, who have opted out of college, who have taken up mundane occupations, advised to do so as time was short, "there’s only a few years left"?

    7. Do you ever tell students about all those ex-BK’s who have donated thousands of pounds/rupees/dollars to the ‘university’ over the years but are not entitled to any kind of refund, even if destitute?

    8. Do you ever tell students about the intense guilt they will almost certainly have to endure the more they commit to the movement? And do you ever tell students about those BK’s and ex-BK’s who have committed suicide?

    9. Do you advise students to have a look at the ex-BK site on the internet for the sake of balance? Let face it, joining the BK's is a life-changing event, they need to be real sure that they are doing the right thing.

    10. Do you still tell students of the benefits of after-bowel-movement-ablutions?

    11. How soon do you tell them the benefits of sleep-deprivation?

    12. Do you still tell people that Raja Yoga is not a religion? Are you not a bit embarassed spinning that one?

    13. Do you remind students that there is not a reputable or even non-reputable scientist out there who's willing to back the wacky 5,000 year doctrine?
Or are you one of those BKs who chooses not to impart knowledge except in a very covert manner? Understandable, I guess, since there’s so much nonsense that you’ve got to work your way around :wink:.
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alladin

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super

Post15 Jul 2007

Grand!
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arjun

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Post16 Jul 2007

Dear Jim brady,

Omshanti. If you are putting these questions to still active veteran BKs, then this thread should have been in the BKs section. Otherwise, if you are asking the veteran ex-BKs who have been BK teachers, then this can remain in this section, but then many of the questions may not have been relevant during their times.

Anyways, I wish you best of luck.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Mr Green

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Post16 Jul 2007

The answer to all of them is no.

I gave the course to literally hundreds of people, singularly and in groups.

The best time though was when I fell asleep in front of a group of students during meditation, I still have no idea to this very day how long I was out for ... hehehe.
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ex-l

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Post16 Jul 2007

mr green wrote:The best time though was when I fell asleep in front of a group of students during meditation, I still have no idea to this very day how long I was out for ... hehehe.

I do not want to distract from the seriousness of these questions, which I think are very good and very throughftul, but ... we can add that to our list;

    14. Do you ask students to wake you up if you fall asleep during meditation?
Don't worry mr green, they probably thought you were a herioc yogi in deep tapasya ... unless, of course, you dribbled or nodded.

Real yogis do not dribble and nod.
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Mr Green

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Post16 Jul 2007

ex-l wrote:
mr green wrote:The best time though was when I fell asleep in front of a group of students during meditation, I still have no idea to this very day how long I was out for ... hehehe.

I do not want to distract from the seriousness of these questions, which I think are very good and very throughftul, but ... we can add that to our list;
    14. Do you ask students to wake you up if you fall asleep during meditation?
Don't worry mr green, they probably thought you were a herioc yogi in deep tapasya ... unless, of course, you dribbled or nodded.

Real yogis do not dribble and nod.

Hahahaha I had my chin on my chest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, I had in fact entered into a trance-like stage in which Shiva the Almighty Authority was able to blow raspberries at the students.
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alladin

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given the bones

Post16 Jul 2007

If ever Mr Green brought up students to some more advanced stage, they probably had the chance to know that the Brother was very dedicated, surrendered, all rounder karmayogi and that especially he was "giving his bones in service", so his nodding off was fully justified.

I should start a course for people suffering from insomnia. It takes me half a second to fall asleep in bed, meditating, on buses, driving a motorbike, next stage will be standing. I am very relaxed, not my fault, or maybe something missing in my diet!!

I know it's disserviceable to do so in meditation, :roll: but at least those who remain alert, can feel really good about themselves. :wink:
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arjun

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Post17 Jul 2007

alladin wrote:If ever Mr Green brought up students to some more advanced stage, they probably had the chance to know that the Brother was very dedicated, surrendered, all rounder karmayogi and that especially he was "giving his bones in service", so his nodding off was fully justified.

Yes, there may be some surrendered BKs or PBKs, who may not get enough time to sleep due to more physical service that they have to do. So, it is but natural that they feel a little bit sleepy during the meditation or when they are listening to Murli. Although, those who remain attentive during the class and meditation despite doing physical service during other times deserve congratulations, but one must not come to negative conclusions if one observes anyone to be sleepy during class or meditation. I, myself, feel sleepy during meditation sometimes when I am too tired before going for the weekly class.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

bansy

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Post17 Jul 2007

The question about sleep is "Does or would God sleep?". If He does, then it is okay for you to do so? If He doesn't sleep, then can or should you ? BapSaman. That is maybe an extreme case. But if your son or daughter was trapped under the 9/11 towers, or your mother or Father was stuck, lost in the Tsunami, I doubt if you would even bat an eyelid for days.

So to sleep in the public eye is not acceptable, if the whole purpose is to provide service.

The reason we, well at least I, sleep in class is the absence of something powerful to keep us awake. As in lokik, so as in alokik class.

I guess in the BK world, we have been sleeping for 4900 years, so 100 years shouldn't be too hard to stay awake if there is detemination.

My excuse for sleeping or nodding off ... Baba's lap is too warm :P.

Jim,

Good post. Regarding the questions for the course, I often wonder if any beginner student is ready to listen to such questions. After all, most often the only thing they are drilled in for the first week is, "I am a soul". However, maybe those questions would be relevant and serve well in a follow up course, say 3-6 months after the Induction course. Not that I am giving the BKWSU any ideas. No one wants to spoil anyone's honeymoon, do they?

However, the question about pointing to this forum would be useful, as all other websites are information only without little discussion.

bkti-pit

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Post10 Aug 2007

I have been in Gyan for almost 24 years and I did teach the course for many years, have been second in charge of the center, read Murli, etc. Now though I am mostly involved in physical service and I seldom give the course anymore. I hope I qualify to answer Jim's questions.

1- I have learned only a couple of years ago about the child abuse thing. As far as I remember I did give the full course to one group and a few lessons here and there to individuals after I learned about it and I remember mentioning something about it to one individual.

2- I usually do not get too much into the details of the numbers when I give the course, whether it is the 5.5 to 6 billion souls, the 5000 years, the 84 births or the 100 years Confluence, etc. I don't think it is very useful for someone who comes just to learn meditation. I do not try to create BKs. I just try to give them something useful. If they keep coming for more and end up coming for Murli class, they will be exposed to the details and I'll explain at that point or if otherwise they do ask questions requiring to go into more details I try to tell them honestly what the official teaching of the organization is and how I myself understand it.

I never took all those numbers literally. What is important for me is the general concepts: the concept of eternity, the concept of cyclical time, the concept of a limited number of souls, the concept that The Cycle is much shorter than the billions of years that we have been exposed to, etc. But whether it is 5000 or 10,000 years, 84 or 88 births, 5 or 7 billions souls, it doesn't matter to me and this is what I tell them. I cannot help if it matters to them. They are free to toss out the whole thing and never come back.

Specifically, concerning what you call the repeatedly revised population figures, all I can remember from all those years of listening to Murlis is Baba mentioning 5.5 or 5.5 to 6 billion souls. So I am not aware of any revision on this.

3- I tell them what I know. I tell them that the Murlis are edited, that we only have the Murlis since 1964 or so, that Baba use to say that the soul was thumb shaped, that Brahma used to think he was God, etc. I may even say sometimes that the Yagya usually tries to hide this from us (that Brahma thought he was God). I am aware that I have never been told the whole truth concerning the history of the Yagya and I can tell them that but I cannot tell what I don't know.

4- No. I don't know much about the Shankar party and their history. It has been only a few years since I have learned about them but I have seen a few BKs turning PBKs and witnessed the reaction of the Yagya. I think it was generally quite justified, definitely not violent. It may have been worse elsewhere but I do not have first-hand experience of that and from the little I know about their history I don't see why I would bring it up to new students unless they ask me about it.

5- Again, I mention only what I know. I was not around in 1976 and all I knew was that BKs had been thinking that destruction would happen in 1976. From what I had been told by by some older BK I had understood that it had originated from some BKs' churnings but I never heard Baba mentioning anything about it, except in one Avyakt Murli dating from a few months before the deadline, in which Baba was referring to it in terms of "if Destruction is to happen by the end of the year, you better hurry up in your efforts". As far as I remember he did not say it would happen. This is what I would share with the students. Now I am learning from this website that Sakar Baba may himself have been at the origin of this belief so I feel I need to investigate this some more ...

6- I tell them that Baba has been saying that Destruction is just ahead of us since 70 years but that he never gave a date, that we honestly have no idea how many more years there are to go, that all the prophecies of the BKs have so far been proven wrong, etc. I have given the example of one Brother, who came in Gyan around the same time I did, who was told by Dadi Janki to quit his studies and who later regretted it. However, he is the only one that I know of in this part of the world who has been asked something like that. Of course i do not get to know all the stories. In any case, my recommendation to the students is always to use their common sense and follow their conscience. I believe in giving respect to the Seniors but not in following blindly.

7- No. I have not been exposed to all those stories. Yet, I have heard of someone who has been refunded. I am aware that when it comes to money the Yagya is not all clean but what I tell the students our official policy of voluntary contribution. It is not the policy of the Yagya that individuals should contribute more than they can afford and I caution the students not to let themselves be manipulated.

8- I consider that I have committed myself whole heartedly and I have never experience that kind of guilt. Actually I have pretty much been liberated from guilt through my experience of Raja Yoga.

0- No. Although I feel I have taken benefit from my acquaintance with this site so far, even if I had known about it earlier I don't think I would have, in most cases, mentioned it to new students.

10- I don't think it is useful for new students to know about this aspect of our Brahmin culture but I feel it is necessary to.inform them when they become regular Murli student.

11- Balance in life is taught by God, not sleep deprivation. I tell them about balance, although I haven't got it right myself ...

12- I never said that this is not a religion because I always considered it to be my religion. I even sometimes tell them that we are a cult. I like to explain how we are different and how we are similar and I like to expand on the concept of Dharma.

13- I always tell them that there is nothing scientific in this and nothing that can be proven. To me it is a question of understanding based on common sense and experience and a question of achieving practical positive changes in my life.
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arjun

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Post10 Aug 2007

Dear BKTi-Pit,

Omshanti. Thanks for the detailed answers to all the questions. As far as I know you are one of the very few BKs on this site, who has given such detailed information. From what you have written, I suppose you are a surrendered teacher. If so, I congratulate you for your boldness in coming to this forum.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post10 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:6- I tell them that Baba has been saying that Destruction is just ahead of us since 70 years but that he never gave a date, that we honestly have no idea how many more years there are to go, that all the prophecies of the BKs have so far been proven wrong, etc. I have given the example of one Brother, who came in Gyan around the same time I did, who was told by Dadi Janki to quit his studies and who later regretted it. However, he is the only one that I know of in this part of the world who has been asked something like that. Of course I do not get to know all the stories. In any case, my recommendation to the students is always to use their common sense and follow their conscience. I believe in giving respect to the Seniors but not in following blindly.

I respect you too. Thank you.

My only observation would be to pick you up on the "Baba has never given a date for Destruction" line but only I know is a primary BK-ism, a 'mantra of defence' and is repeated so often as to be no longer questioned. Like most BK-ism, its true but its also not true. Something that can said honestly, but also is not quite honest.

25 years ago, the Murlis clearly stated "50 years for Destruction and 50 years for Creation" putting it around 1986. I know that. I was involved with the early Murli team and their translation into English. Later they were changed to 60 years and 40 years ... I do not know how they re-write them now. The only vague issue was of when exactly the incarnation of Shiva was. It appears even vaguer now.

They, because Baba is two and it is unclear who says what, may never have said a specific "26 May 2003" date but what a historical review of both original Murlis and other materials show is that They have at times said specific to a within a year, 1950 and 1976 being two. They thought WWII was it too. Likewise the organization has stept in and kept things whipped up, you'll remember the Year 2000 stuff.

Looking at the original posters and literature dated from the 1930s to 49s, which is the latest we have to date, where it does not mention Shiva at all and taking onboard the falsification in such works as Vishwa Ratan's book, do you have any idea how and when Shiva was incorporated into Gyan retrospectively?

I apologize for my disappointment in all this but I am sincere. I am not blaming you or holding you responsible, you are here and that is great for dialogue. I suspect it is all my fault for just having too high expectations. It may also be a Western thing. Truth in India appears to be far more vague or malleable.

But I just started peeling the layers off the BK onion and ended up in tears. I also note how an atmosphere has been created that presents "God" (or Brahma) to be shifty or inaccurate. I think my hardest dissappointment has been in the unveiling of the leadership to have gone over our heads on all this. I thought we were all one and equal but I discovered layer afer layer hidden from we juniors. It is hard for me to reconcile.

bansy

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Post10 Aug 2007

Good reply BKTI-Pit.

I think the way you handle giving the course is not a problem at all. With so many issues to cover, and its never easy to "check the pulse" of a student whom you've only met a few times. And to also give your own time and resource. Nice to have you on board.

bkti-pit

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Post10 Aug 2007

Well ex-l, when I tell people that Baba never gave a date for Destruction, it is according to my knowledge. As I said, I am now learning that he may actually have said something quite specific about 1976. I know the Murlis are edited but how much and what? I have seen a few references to this 1976 thing on this site but where and how can I verify that? I am willing to believe it but I need some solid piece of information from a reliable source.

I had heard from Dada Anand Kishore in Madhuban (and some others) that Brahma Baba used to think he was God and I had no problem with that. It actually made him more real for me, more human, someone who made mistakes, even huge ones. And I was very happy that someone was honest enough to tell us about it. But it is only when I saw old pictures of the Kalpa Tree posted on this site, saying that the new world is being established by God Brahma, with no mention of Shiva, that I realized it had been like that until the fifties. I am interested to know more about this kind of things. I don't know why they hide the truth like this and can see that they don't want to talk about it ...

I do not remember hearing about the 50 years for creation and 50 years for Destruction thing nor the 60-40 one. I might have missed that since I was not attending Murli regularly in my early days. I used to live in an area of the country where there was no Center and in those days the Murlis were not being given out to new ones. I still might have heard it but, as I said, I do not give too much credit to the details of the numbers. I would have understood that as a general indication. It takes 20 minutes or so for a missile to reach New York from Russia. Russians have always said that they don't believe in limited nuclear war. If they launch missiles against the USA it would be defensive and it would be the so called "Mutual Assured Destruction". A nuclear war between the USA and Russia would likely not last more than an hour so I would never put much faith in 50 or 40 years for Destruction anyway.

I have heard the 33 years of Sakar Brahma, 33 years of Avaykt Brahma and 33 years of reconstruction time before the Lakshmi-Narayan coronation ceremony" theory, which was putting destruction by 2002, but it was just another BKs churning, not something that I ever heard from God. I never heard him saying 2000 either. I heard him saying something like "You may think it is 2000 but Baba doesn't say that".

So, I already knew about lies and manipulation and dishonesty within this Yagya, I have witnessed a lot and I am also disappointed with that. I am now learning that there is more and I want to know about it.

It has not affected my faith that this is God teaching nor my faith in a better world but I have long lost trust in most Seniors, whatever trust I had. I give respect out of my own dharna but in my eyes they do not behave as spiritual leaders. It seems that somehow my good karma protected me from the worse. I never got a direct hit from them as it seems some of the contributors to this forum have. I never handed over my life to them anyway.

Okay! Enough for now. I have to leave. I have work to do.

I am happy that I have joined this forum.
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ex-l

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Post10 Aug 2007

Thanks again. Your own two feet on the ground is a good thing to have.

Yes, amongst the posters is also the 1950 date; as close and approximate as the 1976 one. It states "within one year". I can swear on the 50-50 and 60-40 figures ... those were English translations and so who knows what the original Hindi was.

In those days, the SS used to translate them on the hoof and we had to write down what they said. In fact, a number of early BKs were actually inspired to learn Hindi just because of it. In some case, the SS would sit on the guddhi and read in silence and then paraphrase saying, "what Baba is saying here is ..." and students eventually responded, "No, we want to know what he is saying not what you think he is saying". To which we have to add, "or you want to know".

Yes, it has been a biggy for me. 1932 to 1949 with no mention of Shiva is a big one. Dada Vishwa and Jagdish Chanders books hiding it doubles the sin. To my mind, the whole "red eyes ... Shivohum" episode is utterly suspect now.

I am not trying to destroy your faith, I will attempt to destroy false idols. So please remember that I am not directing it personally at you, although I am afraid I might be challenging at times. Destroying falsehood, and letting those that live off it fall, would be the path if knowledge to me.

Equally, I an enthralled to discover what the real truth was and I have to suspect that anyone with faith ought be equally interested.

    How and when was Shiva introduced?
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