Avakyt Dadiji - Dadi Prakashmani's Death

Is not the presence of simply one cell equal to the presence of life ?

Is not a bacterium made of one cell ? Back to the "does the amoeba have a soul" talk.

So the minimum constituent of any life form is one cell. Otherwise what are all these NASA folks doing ?

So how many cells does a foetus have, it almost immediately divides when the egg and sperm cell meet.

So life is born. Is life dependent on having a soul or not ?

I don't know what is meant by abortion, only to mean that it is "the safe period when a foetus can be terminated without harming the carrier". Yet I feel it is still life before this abortion period.

Thus if there is life, then there is soul. A soul in the physical world is a lifeless soul without a body to hold onto. Is this the state of Dadji now ? How can she just leave and enter the foetus as she pleases ? This seems to assert that the foetus that Dadiji is in now is just a lump of waste material for her to go in and out of and to hold onto. How crude.

I am going the "guiilty until proven innocent" route and not wait for the official answer from the BKs about this 4-5 month period. Otherwise we can be waiting forever. So thus, what the BKs seem to be proposing is that the soul chooses the state and condition of the foetus before it enters (after 4-5 months). How can that be ? If the foetus is deformed or is perfect, does it matter to the soul ? What the BKs are proposing is therefore the foetus is therefore a dead piece of matter inside a woman's body.

I think the ISKCON definition seems correct :

The soul enters the womb at the time of conception, and this makes the fetus a living, individual person."

In the case of the BKs, there is 4-5 months of karma that the BK soul will never be able to recover. Since for them to accept the BK Gyan, it means that when they were themselves in the foetus of their own lokik mother, they are thus pronouncing themselves as "dead" for 4-5 months ?

The result of this is therefore a totally confusing Bhog message. Devotion and Bhakti clouding Gyan issues.

Have another think. If the BK Gyan is correct, then it should be acceptable to eat (chicken) eggs as there is no soul in it ?

Anyone remember the Sakar Murli in which G-O-D Shiva spoke a point to the effect that until such time as there is fetal movement it can not be said with any certainty that a soul had entered into the body of an unborn child. Did He go so far as to refer to a time frame within which there was no soul present in the developing foetus? (Sometimes I wish I had a photographic memory).

"Aatma jab garbh may pravesh kartee hai tab hee churpur hoti hai. Yoon toh 5 tatwon may bhi kuch chaitanyata hai tab toh badhtey hain, parantu unmay man-buddhi nahee hai. Un cheezon may sankalp aadi kee baat nahee. Garbh may pind badhtaa hai. Jaisay jhaad badhtaa hai vaisey pind badhtaa hai. Parantu unmay gyaan nahee. Gyaan, Bhakti manushyon ke liye hai." (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 24.09.07, pg 1&2)

"When the soul enters into the womb, only then do movements occur (in the foetus). In a way there is some life in the 5 elements also, only then do they grow, but they do not have mind and intellect. There is no question of thoughts etc. in those things. The foetus develops in the womb. Just as a plant/tree grows, similarly the foetus grows. But they do not contain knowledge. Knowledge, Bhakti is for human beings." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.09.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs in Hindi, translated by a PBK, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; the words within brackets have been added by the translator)

In total, this topic has had 2514 'views' and 27 replies and in the absence of any knowledge about the churnings that the Bhog message would have initiated within the BK Family, these recent exchanges over here on the site may be ground-breaking! What a star of Baba's eyes is Arjun Bhai (Baba's children have to get revealed and this is yet another reason why this site should be let be).

I go back to the boiled chicken egg situation from my previous post. As a boiled chicken egg is only a foetus, then surely it is acceptable to cook and eat it ? Why does it disgusts Raja Yoga students (as well as other vegetarians of various religions) not to eat a boiled egg ? There is no karma to suffer is there after all (according to Gyan) ?

I hope we don't have an idiom that goes "which comes first, the chicken or the egg plus 4 months"

I go back to the boiled chicken egg situation from my previous post. As a boiled chicken egg is only a foetus, then surely it is acceptable to cook and eat it ? Why does it disgusts Raja Yoga students (as well as other vegetarians of various religions) not to eat a boiled egg ? There is no karma to suffer is there after all (according to Gyan) ?

Maybe it is not a karma issue, but one of what is good and healthy to eat and is part of a pure diet.

Before you were asking about the foetus of a human being alive from day one. I think there are two types of 'alive', one is 'nature' and the other is 'souls', which have consciousness. I don't think nature needs a soul and it's conscious control to grow and develop. In fact even when a soul is present how much control does it have over growth?

I go back to the boiled chicken egg situation from my previous post. As a boiled chicken egg is only a foetus, then surely it is acceptable to cook and eat it ? Why does it disgusts Raja Yoga students (as well as other vegetarians of various religions) not to eat a boiled egg ? There is no karma to suffer is there after all (according to Gyan) ?

If you take the above mentioned Murli quote into consideration, then Baba is also referring some things made up of the 5 elements, which appear to us as growing (like plants, foetus, etc.) but do not contain soul. Even then they contain some life. So, that way we can say that egg also contains some life (although it may not have a soul) and hence it is not eaten by vegetarians (including BKs/PBKs).

Some may say that by the above equation, vegetarians should not eat plants also because they too have some life. But the difference between an egg and a plant is that egg gives rise to an organism which can move, interact, react (because of the presence of a living soul in it).

I hope I am not diverting the topic of discussion.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

All in the name of service Arjun Bhai. The deeper we dive into the Ocean the more we see that everything is interconnected. These recent discussions here are now also in tune with the Purification of Soul & Body topic in the PBK part of the forum, do not you think?

There is this kind of chicken egg that is unfertilized, i.e. no rooster involved, no mating. They basically feed the hen with some kind of hormone to lay eggs. And yes, these eggs cannot have souls because they wouldn't develop into chicks no matter how the hen warms them up using her body.

However, those chicken eggs that were fertllized naturally, i.e. rooster had mated the hen, and therefore the egg is "organic", I believe those eggs have souls by the time the hen lays them. It has complete sets of chromosomes ready to become a chick.

But whether the egg is artificial or natural (organic), you will fart the same thing... the smell of the vog.

Thanks for the interesting replies arjunbhai, john, tinydot, abek.

I don't know. I seek, in this case, a perfect situation. i.e. as dieties in the Golden Age reproduce (by Yoga of course), then does that mean the soul does not enter that Golden Age foetus until 4-5 months after ? Is this 4-5 months incubation/abortion gap a concept that only happens in Kaliyug ? It seems to be simply an unnecessary grey zone to cause doubt.

I am referring to us being the most elevated of all lifeforms ... the human being. Should we succumb ourselves to the same latitude as an amoeba or plants, such as tomatoes and cane sugar ? Mind you, it would be nice to be as sweet as sugar cane

The 4-5 months period it means that it would be almost acceptable to have sexual intercourse without objection from either partner, and even in some case rape, and simply ask or force the female counterpart to terminate the foetuses each time it happens. After all, it seems that during those few months, there is a soulless life inside the body. It therefore causes no pain to anyone, if the mother agrees. Just a peice of unwanted matter inside the womb. Same as a kidney stone, or an ulcer, or an appendix. Cut it off. No need therefore for contraceptives, condoms and morning after stuffs.

I hope this is not the kind of family planning that occurs, and the advice to be given.

Now can you hold your head up high and admit that before your were born out into this world, you had once been a piece of unwanted matter. Could have easily been cut out and thrown to the garbage can and fed to crows and wild dogs?

I understand from the Murli point that when the soul enters the womb, then the mind and intellect are existing but are not activated (i.e. they are in some dormant form) until the organs and parts are developed to activate them. There is a lot of energy needed in those first few weeks after conception, would it be the soul asking for that energy and also giving the energy to the mother soul ? Why do women crave for food at that time ? Just my understanding. Knowledge continues inside the foetus when the organs and parts begin developing.

How many folks here curl up when they are scared, is this the foetal position ? Where did you get that knowledge to do this ? One could argue that the position was adopted after 5 months, but if anyone has tried looking at some ultrasonic scans of foetus during early development, they would recognise a certain curved shape. Though we have to try now to be cool in such scary emotional situations now, as that previous knowledge is immature.

Plants and lower organisms do not have features that have mind and intellect capacity even in fully grown form.

PS. We could be moving a little off topic though it is still connected to the meaning of the Bhog message with Dadiji's presence in the womb at this point in time. So I'll stop for now and hope this discussion also takes place within BK circles outside the forum.

I think it is very natural that a death brings up discussion about birth and rebirth. Let us mark our diaries now.

Anyone remember the Murli points in which it is discussed how the Golden Aged souls 'take leave of the body' in a manner symbolised in the way that a snake sheds its old skin (in favour of a 'replenished' outer coating - my words)?

...hope this discussion also takes place within BK circles outside the forum.

So far I have been cautious about who I disclose my involvement in this forum to, although I know that I am not the only one around visiting it, neither am I the only one around thinking that it is relevant.

I am still learning and processing the information I am gathering here and I am trying not to rock the boat too much around me for now but I do bring these things up when it seems appropriate and I must say that many do find all this stuff about Dadiji a bit too much.

I know a Brother who asked Sister Mohini of New York to explain how Dadiji could still be serving the world

from the subtle domain of her angelic stage, her spirit remains an instrument to inspire world service in the realms of peace, non violence, and other spiritual attainments

whilst being in a foetus. I understand that she said that Dadi is not consciously doing anything but her stage and her purity keep serving the world, wherever she is.

Please do not quote this as being an official statement from Sister Mohini as it may not be exactly what she said. I just want to point out that to some extent the discussion is happening at all levels within the BK circles.

You called, Master? September 1985 - Hindus In America Speak out on Abortion Issues

"The Brahma Kumaris view the body as a physical vehicle for the immortal soul, and therefore the issue is not "pro-life" or "anti-life" but a choice between the amount of suffering caused to the souls of the parents and child in either course, abortion or motherhood.

They view existing legislation in America as fair and reasonable, with the proviso that abortion after the 4th month should be avoided except in medical emergencies, since in their view the soul enters the fetus in the 4th to 5th month."

"The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University does not take a formal unchanging political or religious stance on the issue of abortion. They advise that each case requires unique consideration. The final decision will be based on a long series of choices made by the woman on her lifestyle, morals and values. Usually, the choices that created the unwanted pregnancy in the first place have been irrational or emotional ones, not the mature commitment motherhood needs.

The Brahma Kumaris counsel those facing an abortion decision, both man and woman, to understand that by abortion they do not escape responsibility for their actions. When both the parents have fully understood the seriousness of the choice, the University would support the right to make their own decision."

My photographic memories also remembers the young white Sister who came into Gyan in already pregnant and was given Shrimat that she should have an abortion because Destruction was coming soon and having a child would be a terrible pull on the intellect.

That was over 25 years ago. The child will have left a real university by now because the Sister did not follow Shrimat. I can name the now prominent Senior Sisters that gave the advice.

As far as I know, it is still taught that the soul enters the foetus around the 4th or 5th month of pregnancy and it is thus generally considered alright to kill the foetus before that. Hence, the above article seems to honestly reflects the official position of the BKs.

I thank Arjun for quoting the Murli point about the foetus being alive even before the soul enters it. I do not remember hearing or reading this before. I always accepted the 4th to 5th month theory as coming from God and I have shared this with others (including non BKs) but I would never have dared to use that to say that abortion is alright. I am shocked that a Senior Sister would have advised someone to get aborted on such grounds.

I sometimes wonder if we really belong to the same "one kingdom, one religion..."!

This may be a bit off topic but I just want to add on my previous post.

I know many BKs who love children but in my experience it seems that, except for PR purposes, kids have often been considered as a nuisance and treated as such by the leading circles of the BKs. It just makes sense that abortion would be seen as an easy way out by some of them.

No wonder they had to be forced to adopt some kind of a namesake child protection policy!

Please do not quote this as being an official statement from Sister Mohini as it may not be exactly what she said

Its OK. Even the most rancorous amongst us (me) is respectful of honesty and earnestness.

Its time for change. Being here we are catalysts for change. How can a factual basis for faith be wrong or damaging? The beakies are going to look ten times better for sorting their stuff out, being honest and facing the (Western) world with an educated, "look, this is what we are trying to work out, don't blame us" approach.

I just see it all as part of the process of purification squeezing the remnants of Bhakti and the Rajput of the organizations. Bhakti is a very power and subtle drug for us, even within Gyan. Breaking with that addiction is not easy. Look at all the discussion around just that issue here.

Is it also not a little bit of a peasants' upliftment too? Everything that happens in The Cycle must play out, or be set down, in the Confluence Age too, they say.

I am shocked that a Senior Sister would have advised someone to get aborted on such grounds.

I wonder what goes on now, I suspect that they would be a lot more cautious now. certainly in the old days they really did think, and we were told, that everything they uttered with from God (and karma free for them). We were encouraged to ask advice on every aspect of life. Some became more addicted than others to that sort of dependent relationship. If you followed it ... apparently ... it also meant your karma was clear too, although in my experience, it led to some REALLY weird and sometimes upsetting situation.

Excuse me, I am headed off topic.