Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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bkti-pit

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

Sorry ex-l! I misinterpreted you. Since the topic of this thread is "Black people are the most impure...". I thought you meant that, according to BK philosophy, Obama was the most impure because he is black.

Your reasoning, I must say, is a common interpretation of the BK philosophy amongst the BKs but many BKs would consider it rather simplistic and inaccurate.

Baba often said that Raja Yoga is not a question of blind faith, that it is something that must be understood. By that account I think that BKs are entitled to have different interpretations.

The "philosophy" also says that Brahma is the most impure...
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

bkti-pit wrote:Sorry ex-l! I misinterpreted you. Since the topic of this thread is "Black people are the most impure...". I thought you meant that, according to BK philosophy, Obama was the most impure because he is black. Your reasoning, I must say, is a common interpretation of the BK philosophy amongst the BKs but many BKs would consider it rather simplistic and inaccurate. Baba often said that Raja Yoga is not a question of blind faith, that it is something that must be understood. By that account I think that BKs are entitled to have different interpretations. The "philosophy" also says that Brahma is the most impure...

The "philosophy" also says that everyone must reach their most impure state right before they "take Knowledge" so President Obama and the US of A are headed towards the bottom of an exponential decline. You are right ... by BK logic (not your own) Obama must be even more impure BECAUSE he is a black president.

(Aside: I know you are not American but are folks in America taking bets of how quickly he will be assassinated by some racist elements within the secret services/Klu Klux Klan or is it "the game of nations" all over again, e.g. right wing government ends in the poo-poo ... put in a liberal ... have him take the flack but fail or die quickly ... restore even more right wing government ;) ).

This is heading off topic (so please split this topic) and I might start a new one just to try and document it. You are underlining both the dissonance between the core beliefs of the movement and its leadership, and its followers. How do those followers find a place within that system?

In my own experience, I had to enter into a long-term state of denial about the true nature and level of consciousness of the leadership; their ignorance, dishonesty and abuse. I spent a long time in that state. I was socially rewarded by acceptance for taking on board, and repeating to others unquestioning, unfounded and insane beliefs (... like Janki Kripalani being the most stable mind in the world and one of the top 8 souls).

In essence, what they are saying is "we believe everything else is decaying and becoming more impure but we cant say that where it is politically unacceptable. So we will belief the opposite to that as well when it suits us".

Yet Baba says we cannot follow manmat (our own opinions) or listen to others opinions. It either is "God's word" or not.

I agree with you that some BKs attempt to raise the moral and intellectual level ... but how can they? And how long can they be comfortable in a movement well below their level. I believe a few compromise out of ambition and what is in it for them. I believe many more are psychologically abused and enslaved by the mental conditioning and unable to leave ... even though part of them already has.

I can think of some wonderful BKs who are being personally, professional and intellectually stultified whilst they sucked dry by the system. I was thinking about folks like Anthony Strano and Jillian Sawers in the Middle East, Suman in Germany - and many others that are not "names" in the BK world but that just gave up left. Their divinity was their own and well above the BKWSUs. In my opinion, the Brahma Kumari leadership is using and living off them. Using them as polish or icing on a turd.

The danger in sticking around and living with those compromises, attempting to shoehorn the mental adjustments into the mold, is that at first it corrupts you (all the corporate lies and double agent stuff), then it kills you ... and then all that is left is another member of the living dead. A zombie on autopilot.

Let's take just one claim and ask if it is true ... state the absolute or explain the variances ... I think Janki Kripalani would just become angry and irate if forced to do so.
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primal.logic

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

My question is why is diiogenes pretending to be an ex-BK? ... the law of gravity is the same thing as karma blah blah ... do you think we have not heard that before? Do you honestly think there is anything you are telling us that we have not heard before?

You are simplistic, reductionist and fundamentalist. And as naive as a new born BK.

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

My question is why is diiogenes pretending to be an ex-BK?

There's no pretense, primal. I don't follow Shrimat, I don't attend Amrit Vela, Murli, or have contact with the Brahmin family in any way.
... the law of gravity is the same thing as karma blah blah ... do you think we have not heard that before?

I don't know, have you? Considering I came up with that analogy from my own churnings on karma, had never heard it used from with the BKs, it would be reasonable to think most people struggling with the reality of karma hadn't heard it.
Do you honestly think there is anything you are telling us that we have not heard before?

I don't know you, and only a little about your period in Gyan, so it's pretty impossible for me to say what you have and haven't heard before. Given it was written in response to a discussion with Joel your issue with it is a moot point.
You are simplistic, reductionist and fundamentalist.

Only fundamentalist where the fundamentals are called for.

As for calling me simplistic and reductionist, it appears you have a bee in your bonnet and a chip on your shoulder.
And as naive as a new born BK.

Not at all. I share a number of views on the BKs as are expressed here. I just haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater, as discussion here reveals, many have.
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john

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

Is it not somewhere in Indian/Hindu culture that being darker skinned is a sign of more impurity?
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tom

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post09 Dec 2008

Yes, in Dilwala Temple, which is praised in the Murlis as the highest memorial of BKs, and the statues representing BKs. There are many statues of meditating yogis with open eyes, sitting in lotus position. These are all made from white marmor and are put in niches . There is only one single statue of a meditating yogi sitting in a separate room, painted in dark blue, almost black. This statue is explained from the top Seniors in Madhuban to be the statue of Brahma Baba, as a symbol of the first degraded human being.
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joel

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

diiogenes wrote: We're all subject to the universal laws, of which karma is one ... You either did not understand, Joel, or you're choosing to be willfully ignorant.

Hi again D,

If you look over what I wrote, I said that "for myself, I examine my participation, conscious or unconscious, in all that befalls me." Not exactly a "state of denial" as far as I can tell. I can take responsibility for myself, as many people in the world do, without considering whether "as you sow, so shall you reap" is a universal law.

What I think is the difference between your position (if that is the right word) and mine, is that I have no handy explanation for the underlying cause if something bad happens to someone. It it remains a mystery to my limited eyes. Your view seems to be one of believing in a kind of divine justice, if not meted out directly by God, then by some universal law.

"What about earthquakes? What about epidemics? What about when an airplane crashes" I had asked Jagdish Chander. His answer was simple: "people who commit the same crime are in the same jail."

That is what I mean about "overarching philosophy." Something that seeks to explain everything, and brooks no departures. I think I am justified in using boldface here to emphasize that if you believe something like this, then you will never, ever see injustice because you believe it cannot exist, or that there is always some explanation.

The more I get to know people who are homeless, impoverished, diseased, persecuted, etc., the more I discover that they are not dramatically different than I am. I find no grounds to conclude that they have done bad to deserve their fate, and that I have done good to deserve my relatively comfortable existence. God may know that what you say is true. As an ordinary person, I don't see anything in those people that I can judge.

I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this purported universality of karma: If something bad happens to you, you must have done something wrong, because there is no suffering without cause. To me this smells of judgment. I am unable to distinguish this from the callous self-righteousness of those who would tell a rape victim (or secretly aside to themselves), "you must have brought it on yourself."

Early this morning, I saw myself sitting in a hall with many people, and a woman dressed in black in the front. She was an astrologer or clairvoyant. "I am just an ordinary person," I struggled to say, waking myself up in the process. I think I am proud of myself for getting off at least this particular high horse: that I am privileged because of my good acts and enlightened knowledge from God.

If accepting the universality of "as you sow ..." were really so potent a truth, we should see people believing in karma to be suffering less. I see no less suffering among BKs, or Buddhists, or Christians.

I left the BKs after an extensive personal survey showed me that many people who had no such philosophical orientation were at least as wise, mature, creative and fulfilled as my BK family members.

As for "throwing the baby out with the bathwater," it is myself I have kept (the baby, my own life) while letting the water of so-called knowledge find its own level.

Even if you disagree with me about "as you sow ..." perhaps you will see that I am finding what I want for myself. As an actor, I think you learn to accept and appreciate the variety of people in the world, including all of their beliefs and emotional lives.

Regards,
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john

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Surely If there is any structure to 'Life', any sense or reason, then Karma is the fairest system?

Of course, it has to go hand in hand with reincarnation otherwise it doesn't work. How can anything that did not have life before have any karma? Actually, in the philosophy of the BKs is an answer to alleviate bad Karma. It is not an answer that pleases everyone, but it is an answer and it may be correct.

In the Murlis, the ideas of Karma are revealed, one can choose to believe them or not. The point is that some person, or being, has come up with or revealed these answers. Will these answers help us gain more understanding over life or not?
Joel wrote:That is what I mean about "overarching philosophy." Something that seeks to explain everything, and brooks no departures. I think I am justifying in using boldface here to emphasize that if you believe something like this, then you will never, ever see injustice because you believe it cannot exist, or that there is always some explanation.

I don't believe Karma stops with, "Well, you deserved that so let's leave them to rot". To stand by and ignore more injustices whether you think it's because or Karma or not is wrong. Karma is also about putting things right as best we can.
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joel

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Yes, John, if these answers help one gain more understanding over life, then there is every reason to take advantage of them.

Obviously if there is justice, it seems fairer than if there is not! I agree that karma philosophy would certainly need an acceptance of reincarnation to make sense, since babies in the womb haven't had a chance to do what someone else might label as bad!
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leela

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Hello everyone! There are a lot of fascinating posts here and I've been following the arguments. I'd like to say something about my view of Truth and why I don't share ex-l's mission to get to the bottom of the BK's words.

ex-l writes: "Let's take just one claim and ask if it is true ... state the absolute or explain the variances ... "

Experiences I have had lead me to the conclusion that Truth is not a concept, that it cannot be contained in words or statements. I think it is true in all religions as well as in Gyan, that words are signposts attempting to capture an inner experience, and they always fail. More than fail, they often point us in the wrong direction if we take them too literally. Words give name and form to an experience of what is essentially nameless and formless.

I actually still belive that Brahma Baba had direct inner experience of God and that BK teachings grew out of his attempts to put that experience into words within the context of his background and culture and so on. That inner experience, and ones understanding of it, changes over time, so it seems natural that the teachings change. I also believe that some (not all) Senior BKs have deep inner experiences of the divine, and that the words they use to convey that experience are colored by their own worldy background and experience. The result is quite naturally more contrasting or conflicting versions of the truth at the level of words.

I also experience that the divine and the human can co-exist. Personally, I never witnessed Dadi Janki or Sister Jayanti behaving 'badly" but I accept that others did. To me, their humanness doesn't necessarily deny their own experiences of God, nor does it diminish their spiritual power. I had many, many powerful experiences in their presence that I take to be some transmission of God. That was my good fortune, and MY EXPERIENCE, which cannot be denied or forgotten. And that is where the truth is for me.

ex-l again:

"The danger in sticking around and living with those compromises, attempting to shoehorn the mental adjustments into the mold, is that at first it corrupts you (all the corporate lies and double agent stuff), then it kills you ... and then all that is left is another member of the living dead. A zombie on autopilot." ...and ..."I can think of some wonderful BKs who are being personally, professional and intellectually stultified whilst they sucked dry by the system. "

I know these experiences too. I had them myself and I saw them in others. But the truth is, we don't ever really know what another is experiencing or what they will take and make of their experience. However much you try to cast the BKs as the enemy doing wrong to others, the fact remains that we are all independent individuals who collude with the experience to a greater or lesser degree. I take the good and the bad of my own BK experience to be wonderful, fascinating, extraordinary, unique experiences. The bad was as useful as the good to bring me where I am today. And the truth of my experience of God today is different from the truth of my experience of yesterday. Therefore, I probably rewrite my own history to match today's experience, so I accept that the BKs have done that too over the years.

So I would say, the "absolute" cannot be stated in words. Any attempt to do so will always results in "variances."
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tom

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

As I came to Gyan, I was tired and almost burnt after years of my political engagements I spent trying to make the world a better place. I found at that moment, this karma theory of the BKs' was very comforting and let the BKs wash my brain. Then I have spent and wasted so many years serving BKs instead of supporting real human beings who are doing real good work outside in the world to help suffering people.

As a BK I practiced myself the work of washing the brains of the newcomers with the same shallow karma theory to make them into buddhus who give up all their feelings, and consciousness of responsibility, of the worldly problems to became careless egoistic, idiotic BKs.

I wrote in another thread that Dadi Janki was telling us if we see one person doing something bad to another one, to shut our eyes and walk away not to get involved into their karma. Even if that person is killing the other one. And if we are asked later what we have seen, to say, "Nothing" because it is "their karma".

This is how the BK leadership is comforting their hearts and shutting their eyes to the sufferings of the whole world population and of the 100 million of homeless Indians on the streets and spending their filthy money for the construction of luxurious castles for BKs with micro fiber installations.

BKs karma theory is the best tool of the Leadership for manipulation and control of the believers to give them the comfort and let them give up all their worries about social problems and let them focus their whole time and money and energy to the BKWSU.

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Joel wrote:If you look over what I wrote, I said that "for myself, I examine my participation, conscious or unconscious, in all that befalls me." Not exactly a "state of denial" as far as I can tell. I can take responsibility for myself, as many people in the world do, without considering whether "as you sow, so shall you reap" is a universal law.

The point of understanding it as a unversal law is that it forms a cornerstone of moral understanding and behaviour for the individual, something they can build on and which strengthens their being. Without its acceptance behaviour and morality easily become compromised, despite the good intentions of the self.
What I think is the difference between your position (if that is the right word) and mine, is that I have no handy explanation for the underlying cause if something bad happens to someone. It it remains a mystery to my limited eyes.

I don't accept it because it provides any handy explanation. I accept it because I understand it to be true, and it's proven in my own life experiences. I find it valuable to gain insights into the workings of the world and karma. It's by this understanding I can become truly useful when circumstances arise, as against just being a good samaritan with good intentions.
Your view seems to be one of believing in a kind of divine justice, if not meted out directly by God, then by some
universal law. God is the benchmark of my potential, never the judge or executor of justice.

By knowing the universal laws I am at least informed in the choices I make. When I choose to ignore them I bring about my own punishment.
"What about earthquakes? What about epidemics? What about when an airplane crashes" I had asked Jagdish Chander. His answer was simple: "people who commit the same crime are in the same jail." That is what I mean about "overarching philosophy." Something that seeks to explain everything, and brooks no departures. I think I am justified in using boldface here to emphasize that if you believe something like this, then yiou will never, ever see injustice because you believe it cannot exist, or that there is always some explanation.

This is where your thinking is wrong, Joel. Truly understanding this philosophy develops your capacity for compassion, so seeing injustice much more clearly. There maybe people who use their philosophy to insulate themselves from seeing injustice, but that's not a charge I'd level against most Brahmins I knew. Even the tyrants I've mentioned in other posts demonstrated an understanding of karma in relation to their behaviour that I was comfortable with. It was their blind spots I could do without.
The more I get to know people who are homeless, impoverished, diseased, persecuted, etc., the more I discover that they are not dramatically different than I am. I find no grounds to conclude that they have done bad to deserve their fate, and that I have done good to deserve my relatively comfortable existence. God may know that what you say is true. As an ordinary person, I don't see anything in those people that I can judge.

I did not get any impression Dadi Janki was passing any judgement in her comment. I don't feel any need to judge people. I consider less fortunate than me for whatever reason. Understanding why they might be in their situation is a completely different thing. It's not a case of good and bad, but circumstance that they, or I, have arrived at where we are.
I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this purported universality of karma: If something bad happens to you, you must have done something wrong, because there is no suffering without cause. To me this smells of judgment.

There is no suffering without cause, as their is no success without effort. If something 'bad' happens to you it will be because, wittingly or unwittingly, you've created the opportunity for it to occur and have a negative effect on you. In about my second year in Gyan I was driving a colleague to rehearsals when we were sideswiped by a truck (my side of the car). My colleague was hysterical while the event was occuring. Not for a moment did I feel in danger or disturbed. My colleague was unable to function for most of the day. I relate this to illustrate something 'bad' happening, one person suffered, the other did not. It was also a good lesson in the power of Yoga and detachment for me.
I am unable to distinguish this from the callous self-righteousness of those who would tell a rape victim (or secretly aside to themselves), "you must have brought it on yourself."

It sounds like you've created an obstacle of conflict and struggle for yourself over the issue. It's good you're thinking about these things though.
Early this morning, I saw myself sitting in a hall with many people, and a woman dressed in black in the front. She was an astrologer or clairvoyant. "I am just an ordinary person," I struggled to say, waking myself up in the process. I think I am proud of myself for getting off at least this particular high horse: that I am privileged because of my good acts and enlightened knowledge from God.

You well maybe priviledged in those ways, and acknowledging it is very different to adopting a superior position through that awareness.
If accepting the universality of "as you sow..." were really so potent a truth, we should see people believing in karma to be suffering less.

Suffering is born of ignorance, and the behaviour and attitudes that develop from that ignorance.
I see no less suffering among BKs, or Buddhists, or Christians.

I don't know many Buddhists. The Christians I know lead fruitful, purposeful lives. But I saw less suffering through ignorance among BKs than any group, religion or community pursuing spiritual practice.
I left the BKs after an extensive personal survey showed me that many people who had no such philosophical orientation were at least as wise, mature, creative and fulfilled as my BK family members.

I don't disagree with you there. I had a similar reason for choosing to disengage from BK lifestyle as well. I found I was more comfortable working with other limitations than within the Brahmin heirachy constipation point.
As for "throwing the baby out with the bathwater," it is myself I have kept (the baby, my own life) while letting the water of so-called knowledge find its own level.

I wasn't directing my comment at you, Joel. I totally agree it's sensible to find your own level and happiness within what you've learned. You seem to be achieving that. At the same time I'd be remiss not to share what I've learned to be most valuable, agreed with or not.
Even if you disagree with me about "as you sow...." perhaps you will see that I am finding what I want for myself. As an actor, I think you learn to accept and appreciate the variety of people in the world, including all of their beliefs and
emotional lives.

The point of the 'As you sow ...' analogy, is that it operates at a level nearly every one can understand. It's easy to remember and build greater understanding on.

Best wishes to you.
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Leela ... I do not know how much of the forum you have chewed your way but I am really operating at a very basic level.

If you are going to run a pyramid religion which encourages its followers to not just give up worldly security but labor for free AND donate considerable money to sustain it based on "The Imminent End of the World" call Destruction ... you tell them that your God has made failed predictions on numerous, specific occasions from WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s and leaders in 2000 right on the front page of your website ... not decades after they have been indoctrinated.

If you are going to encourage your followers that your guru was 'God possessed' and the only true medium ... you tell them that you also previous thought he was "Prajapati God Brahma" for 20 years before you introduced a God Shiva and that numerous other mediums were involved.

Such extensive dishonesty and cover up is fraudulent "undue influence. No less. And not evidence of divinity.

Sure, Lekhraj Kirpalani had some interesting psychic things going ... its beside the point now. Its about the manipulation and effect the current leadership is having on its following.
An academic asked me recently if rumors were true that Janki Kripalani questioned if, or did not believe that, Gulzar was channeling BapDada/Shiva/God/Lekhraj Kirpalani any more ... could there be any truth to that?
diiogenes wrote:The only evident truth there is that peddling rumours is no substitute for anything ...

Actually, it was a researcher for Professor Eileen Barker, Professor Emeritus at the London School of Economics, and the chair and honorary director of INFORM who raised the query, see here.

INFORM is arguably the most preeminent centre for the study of New Religious Movements in the world. Certainly one of the most influential ones. They are responsible to governments, police and other authorities. Eileen is on good terms with the Beakies and lives near them. It was very much she that saved cults from being cults, creating and defending the validity of 'new religious movements'. Its a little bit beyond "gossip". They are a little better informed now. I merely asked a fair question. To get an honest answer of Janki in public or expect a display of ethics ... I would not wait.

To be honest, I missed all this dialogue with diogenes until now. I have attempt to discuss "Karma" - and the misappropriation of Newtons Laws of Motion - with BK followers extensively ... the controversy generally dies after the second sentence. Its obviously so deep it is inexplicable. "Depth" within the Brahma Kumari movement is found in not thinking, not question and not have any answers. It is found in acceptance born of repetition ... "what is Karma? It is "very deep" ... good child ... now stop thinking and run along now". Please explain the mechanics of how Karma works (on another topic please) and through which medium such a mechanistic force works.

I would have to agree that despite finding the Maryadas too tough, you are still stuck in fundamentalist BK mode, diogenes. Within that, the defence of Janki Kripalani is understandable, the deification myth which they have financially invested in heavily, is an important incentive and validation to BKs that what they are doing is of any value. "One of the 8 top souls ... the most stable mind in the world ... an 'Emperor Narayan' in waiting ... a super powered angel incarnate". They were debunk for no scientist ever having made that claim despite 20 years to abuse. She, acting out of her forbidden love for Lekhraj Kirpalani, has acted to cover up extensive historical revisions about herself and the organization. That is not in any way divine.

Janki Kripalani is not black. Please do not insult us. She is a Sindhi born of a business family. Genetically, an Indo-Iranian mongrel; Aryan probably with a bit of Mughal, Turk or Syrian thrown into her genes (given the history of the Sind). It lends weight to the PBK theory that there are "Islamacists" forces active within Brahma Kumari movement.
diiogenes wrote:The only evident truth there is that peddling rumours is no substitute for anything ... If a person dies an agonising, sudden death, that is their karma.

My thoughts were the same as the others ... tell that to Ranjana and Sharad Patel's parents in person.

"You can take the individual out of the BKWSU ... but can you take the BKWSU out of the individual?"

bkti-pit

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Mr Green wrote:Ignorance breeds racism.

Which says a lot about how much power of Knowledge has been accumulated in some BKs after decades of study, practice and teaching Raja Yoga ...
joel wrote:I concluded that there is something wrong in a group that puts a higher priority on its public image than on the welfare of its members.

I share your feelings on this matter Joel.

I would hope that understanding the depth of the Karma philosophy would manifest in acts of generosity, benevolence and care but it seems that some people's interpretation makes them inhumane. It would seem that to some it is body consciousness to seek social justice and equity.

I even heard comments about medical care being undue interference into someone else's Karma!
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

bkti-pit wrote:I even heard comments about medical care being undue interference into someone else's Karma!

... whereas we read earlier about how the monetary "fruits" of life insurance policy, due to the results of a follower's terminal illness, were pounced up as rightfully part of of the BKWSO's bank balance karma.
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