Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
  • Message
  • Author
Offline
User avatar

joel

ex-BK

  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 01 May 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

Diiogenes,

We've been writing quite a lot here, and I hope we can find ways to hear each other as well as we are both expressing ourselves.
Joel wrote:If you look over what I wrote, I said that "for myself, I examine my participation, conscious or unconscious, in all that befalls me." Not exactly a "state of denial" as far as I can tell. I can take responsibility for myself, as many people in the world do, without considering whether "as you sow, so shall you reap" is a universal law.
Diiogenes wrote:The point of understanding it as a unversal law is that it forms a cornerstone of moral understanding and behaviour for the individual, something they can build on and which strengthens their being. Without its acceptance behaviour and morality easily become compromised, despite the good intentions of the self.

So you believe that karma philosophy, with its concept of universal justice, is the foundation for moral understanding and behavior, in the absence of which one is morally vulnerable?
Joel wrote:What I think is the difference between your position (if that is the right word) and mine, is that I have no handy explanation for the underlying cause if something bad happens to someone. It it remains a mystery to my limited eyes.

Diiogenes wrote:I don't accept it because it provides any handy explanation. I accept it because I understand it to be true, and it's proven in my own life experiences. I find it valuable to gain insights into the workings of the world and karma. It's by this understanding I can become truly useful when circumstances arise, as against just being a good samaritan with good intentions.

So this understanding gives you a perspective that goes beyond seeing the person and circumstances, beyond what an agyani person might be able to offer?
Diiogenes wrote:By knowing the universal laws I am at least informed in the choices I make. When I choose to ignore them I bring about my own punishment.

This seems to come back to what you initially wrote, that karma is the cornerstone of moral behavior for you, that you ignore at your own peril. And by extension, perhaps for people of all stripes and colors.
Joel wrote:"What about earthquakes? What about epidemics? What about when an airplane crashes" I had asked Jagdish Chander. His answer was simple: "people who commit the same crime are in the same jail." That is what I mean about "overarching philosophy." Something that seeks to explain everything, and brooks no departures. I think I am justified in using boldface here to emphasize that if you believe something like this, then you will never, ever see injustice because you believe it cannot exist, or that there is always some explanation.
Diiogenes wrote:This is where your thinking is wrong, Joel. Truly understanding this philosophy develops your capacity for compassion, so seeing injustice much more clearly.

This part is paradoxical for me ... has been and continues to be. If karma is a law of return for each act, and each bears responsibility for all that befalls them, then it appears to me that there is no injustice. Which connects with the BK practice of seeing all human activity as a distant drama. I, personally, do not enjoy theater when I am detached, but when I am engaged, laughing and crying and even suffering with those I see on stage.

The BK tradition, however, is one of detachment, as we hear pretty much in every single Sakar Murli. The typical example given is that of a doctor who can help people more if she can handle the sight of blood. As a BK I aspired to help others as a kind of spiritual doctor. Fit in perfectly with the "helper" mentality in my own family, while distancing me from friendship and intimacy, which are based on equality rather than a helper relationship.
Joel wrote:The more I get to know people who are homeless, impoverished, diseased, persecuted, etc., the more I discover that they are not dramatically different than I am. I find no grounds to conclude that they have done bad to deserve their fate, and that I have done good to deserve my relatively comfortable existence. God may know that what you say is true. As an ordinary person, I don't see anything in those people that I can judge.
Diiogenes wrote:I did not get any impression Dadi Janki was passing any judgement in her comment. I don't feel any need to judge people. I consider less fortunate than me for whatever reason. Understanding why they might be in their situation is a completely different thing. It's not a case of good and bad, but circumstance that they, or I, have arrived at where we are.

I am not speaking about Dadi Janki here, but my own "digestion" of this concept. The typical explanation here, as I recall it, is "this knowledge is like a knife, it's up to you to use it properly."
Joel wrote:I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this purported universality of karma: If something bad happens to you, you must have done something wrong, because there is no suffering without cause. To me this smells of judgment.
Diiogenes wrote:There is no suffering without cause, as their is no success without effort. If something 'bad' happens to you it will be because, wittingly or unwittingly, you've created the opportunity for it to occur and have a negative effect on you. In about my second year in Gyan I was driving a colleague to rehearsals when we were sideswiped by a truck (my side of the car). My colleague was hysterical while the event was occuring. Not for a moment did I feel in danger or disturbed. My colleague was unable to function for most of the day. I relate this to illustrate something 'bad' happening, one person suffered, the other did not. It was also a good lesson in the power of Yoga and detachment for me.

There is something magical about being able to be detached in that situation, as a Mexican BK Brother told me he felt during the huge Mexico City earthquake, or as I myself did, having dental drilling and filling without anaesthetic. I've written elsewhere that this ability is secondary in my life now to the issue of my ability and disability to connect with others.[/quote]
Joel wrote:I am unable to distinguish this from the callous self-righteousness of those who would tell a rape victim (or secretly aside to themselves), "you must have brought it on yourself."
Diiogenes wrote:It sounds like you've created an obstacle of conflict and struggle for yourself over the issue. It's good you're thinking about these things though.

I am not conflicted, Diiogenes, in that at this stage in my life I experience my moral strength (to the extent I have it) to rest on a different foundation than my cerebral apprehension of the world and the thoughts that I tell myself. Some inner embodied something ... let's call it "backbone" that is more like a feeling of support rather than a particular mindset.
Diiogenes wrote:Suffering is born of ignorance, and the behaviour and attitudes that develop from that ignorance.

Wow, such a strong statement! I don't really know what to say ... kind of harks back to BK-defined soul consciousness. If you know who you are--some kind of cognitive and emotional experience--you can be free of suffering, or at least settle it.
Joel wrote:I see no less suffering among BKs, or Buddhists, or Christians.
Diiogenes wrote:I don't know many Buddhists. The Christians I know lead fruitful, purposeful lives. But I saw less suffering through ignorance among BKs than any group, religion or community pursuing spiritual practice.
Joel wrote:I left the BKs after an extensive personal survey showed me that many people who had no such philosophical orientation were at least as wise, mature, creative and fulfilled as my BK family members.
Diiogenes wrote:I don't disagree with you there. I had a similar reason for choosing to disengage from BK lifestyle as well. I found I was more comfortable working with other limitations than within the Brahmin heirachy constipation point.

If non-BKs can be as wise as BKs, then what exclusive benefits can BKs claim to offer? If these benefits are not exclusive, how can BKs at the present time consider themselves to be the chosen ones, ancestors, the roots and foundation of the entire world civilization? You don't have to answer that ... It seems we both agree that the BKs, as a group, have not been universally liberated by the esoteric knowledge revealed through the BK founder.
Regards,
Offline

diiogenes

BK supporter

  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: 01 Apr 2008
  • Location: Australia

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post10 Dec 2008

ex-l wrote:An academic asked me recently if rumors were true that Janki Kripalani questioned if, or did not believe that, Gulzar was channeling BapDada/Shiva/God/Lekhraj Kirpalani any more ... could there be any truth to that?
diiogenes wrote:The only evident truth there is that peddling rumours is no substitute for anything ...
ex-l wrote: Actually, it was a researcher for Professor Eileen Barker, Professor Emeritus at the London School of Economics and chair and honorary director of INFORM who raise the query.

INFORM is arguably the most preeminent centre for the study of New Religious Movements in the world. Certainly one of the most influential ones. They are responsible to governments, police and other authorities. Eileen is on good terms with the Beakies and lives near them. It was very much she that saved cults from being cults, creating and defending the validity of 'new religious movements'. Its a little bit beyond "gossip". I asked a fair question.

Doing this, you fail to recognise the damage to your integrity and credibility, ex-l. Firstly by peddling a rumour, secondly in trying to justify peddling the rumour by citing a person's credentials. What does that make it? A credentialed rumour?

    Silly person one: " Rumour has it the Big Waaku thinks the Big Kahuna is a fake! Do you know if it's true?"
    Silly person two: " Who told you that?"
    Silly person one: " Dame Neverletthetruthgetinthewayofagoodstory - MLC,DBE,MOG,Phd,MBsc,RCA,EMI,KFC!
    Silly person two: " Wow!'
    Silly person one: " Exactly. That makes it more than just a rumour. It's rumour that transcends being a rumour.
    Silly person two: " A SUPER rumour!"
    Silly person one: " As compared to your ordinary, everyday rumour."
    Silly person two: " Hah. Those!"
    Silly person one: " Now you're getting the picture. Something we can really get our teeth into. Go ask around."
    Silly person two: " Just try and stop me!"
    Silly person one: " That's the spirit!"
ex-l wrote:To be honest, I missed all this dialogue with diogenes until now. I have attempt to discuss "Karma" - and the misappropriation of Newton's Laws of Motion - with BK followers extensively ... the controversy generally dies after the second sentence. Its obviously so deep it is inexplicable.

Inexplicable to you, perhaps. There's a big difference between something being unfathomable and it being fathomless.
I would have to agree that despite finding the Maryadas too tough, you are still stuck in fundamentalist BK mode, diogenes.

It's your perogative to hold that opinion, and to my amusement to know how wrong you are.
Within that, the defence of Janki Kripalani is understandable, the deification myth which they have financially invested in heavily, is an important incentive and validation to BKs that what they are doing is of any value. "One of the 8 top souls ... the most stable mind in the world ... an 'Emperor Narayan' in waiting ... a super powered angel incarnate". They were debunk for no scientist ever having made that claim despite 20 years to abuse. She, acting out of her forbidden love for Lekhraj Kirpalani, has acted to cover up extensive historical revisions about herself and the organization. That is not in any way divine.

Janki Kripalani is not black. Please do not insult us. She is a Sindhi born of a business family. Genetically, an Indo-Iranian mongrel; Aryan probably with a bit of Mughal, Turk or Syrian thrown into her genes (given the history of the Sind). It lends weight to the PBK theory that there are "Islamacists" forces active within Brahma Kumari movement.

Peddling rumour and conspiracy theories, exl. There's no stopping you, is there?
diiogenes wrote:The only evident truth there is that peddling rumours is no substitute for anything ... If a person dies an agonising, sudden death, that is their karma.
ex-l wrote:My thoughts were the same as the others ... tell that to Ranjana and Sharad Patel's parents in person.

I am not so presumptive. There's a time and a place for everything.

Best wishes.
Offline
User avatar

tom

ex-BK

  • Posts: 363
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2008

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Dear Admin and all,

Another BK supporter disguised this time as "ex-BK" on board, with only aim and objective to insult ex-l. His/hers only knowledge and experience of BK life seems to be limited with the cliches of the 7 days course. Meanwhile he/she is forcing other forum members to some endless repetitive long conversations to settle down in the forum and to take over.

This above post is not responding but insulting and is gone too far by violating the forum guidelines.

I am asking Admin kindly to move the above post to the thread where it belongs to.
Offline

jann

friends or family of a BK

  • Posts: 1225
  • Joined: 29 Jan 2007
  • Location: europe

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Strongly Agree with you Tom.!!
Offline

diiogenes

BK supporter

  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: 01 Apr 2008
  • Location: Australia

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Things getting a little close to the bone for you fellas? You certainly don't mind dishing it out, but when someone shows your agenda and practices for what they are, you want to take your bat and ball and go home.
Offline

jann

friends or family of a BK

  • Posts: 1225
  • Joined: 29 Jan 2007
  • Location: europe

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Just read your post and the topic again. You're off topic so it has to be moved. Simple as that.
Offline
User avatar

joel

ex-BK

  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 01 May 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Others seem to be getting upset here Diiogenes. Is that what you want? What is your aim in participating here?

I quote you: "I'd be remiss not to share what I've learned to be most valuable, agreed with or not."

If you are here to serve me, no thanks! I'd be more interested in hearing about your job, family - by the way I hope you have a good relationship with them - or other interests. Or generally, how life has been for you since leaving the angelic embrace of the BK family.
Offline
User avatar

Mr Green

ex-BK

  • Posts: 1856
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Love is all you need.
Offline
User avatar

john

reforming BK

  • Posts: 1563
  • Joined: 03 May 2006
  • Location: UK

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

Maybe we need to disentangle the philosophy of Karma proposed by the Murlis from the current BKSWU understanding and application of it.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9590
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post11 Dec 2008

john wrote:Maybe we need to disentangle the philosophy of Karma proposed by the Murlis from the current BKSWU understanding and application of it.

I agree ... but over on the 13 page "Karma topic", please. Not a Dadi Janki topic. The only thing that irritates me is when folks go off topic. There is already a popular topic for questioning ex-l elsewhere. Please use that diogenes and not distract from this current topic.

As regards the enquiry from one of the best sources of information on new religious movements and cults ... for goodness sake ... how do you THINK researchers discover new things and come about more accurate deductions? They ask questions ... they follow up leads ... they exclude dead ends ... they note down new findings. Thankfully INFORM have moved off from depending on the BKWSU own PR for its sources of information.

The big unanswered question we have is how, when and through whom did the spirit entity they now call Shiva enter into the Brahma Kumari movement. We have discovered that it was Post-1950 and the Jagdish Chander version is a cocktail of romantic hagiographies, cribbed directly from Hinduism (like Shivoham, Shivoham) and plain old lies. The Baba that Janki Kripalani was in love with was Lekhraj Kirpalani, aka Prajapati God Brahma. Before 1950 there was no God Shiva. Both her and the movement's early history has been extensively fabricated. For the first 12 or so years, she was in love with Lekhraj Kirpalani ... I think many on this forum would say she still is.

So, take Janki Kripalani;
    the global leader who exploits a falsified version of the first 20 years of the movement's history ... accepted a second 20 years of false promotion as "the most stable mind in the world" ... covers up the child sex abuse within the movement and does not bring the offender to justice ... comes out with corkers like "black people are the most impure" ... "don't report murders if you are a witness" ... "Westerners are ready to accept spirituality because they understand grief" ... lives surrounded by unquestioning acolytes who believe she is an angel and one of the top 8 souls in the world (and who filter out any challenging issues) ... so say nothing of all the money soaking ... honestly, what is going on!?! And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Need I worry about my credibility?
70 years and multi-million of dollars and has any Brahma Kumari, let allow one of the top 8, been able to publish a comparison between the original Buddhist concept of Karma, the Brahma Kumari theory and an explanation of its mechanics. Brahma Kumaris state, "the Jews deserved to suffer the Holocaust, it was their fault". OK. Fine ... explain to me "how". Not a deep answer like, "because it was their karma". Explain to me the mechanics.

Individuals are encouraged to make considerable personal investments into the BKWSU and by proxy the Brahma Kumari leadership like Janki Kripalani. In some cases, the other way around. Their self-identity, their self-worth becomes dependent on the projected image of the personalities such as Janki, and human beings have the habit of filtering out contradictory factual evidence to that which they want to believe. Attacks to the credibility of the leader are felt as attacks on their own self. This to me, and a system that projects and defends false images of their leaders, is the antithesis of spirituality.

Unfortunately, diogenes's reaction to the PBK's more metaphorical interpretation of Islam as referred to 'The Knowledge' betrays a complete lack of awareness of it. The genetic make up of Sindhis is as I stated. You can read 'Iranian' as either Persian or Baloch, you can read 'Indo' as either Aryan or Punjabi ... but there are no negro genes in there. I doubt even any Dravidian. The BKs don't believe in human evolution, so there is no connection with Africa.

Yes, in India dark skin and the darker Dravidians were traditionally looked down up and the lighter Aryan skin is worshipped. Like fat wives, lighter skin a symbol of wealth, signifying you did not work manually under the sun, and power. All you got to do is look at the marital adverts for Indians to confirm that, "wheaten" is the word they use.

How many famous dark skinned BK Sisters do you know? Some Indians are a dark as negros.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9590
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post12 Dec 2008

Actually, there was also a lot of talk in the BKWSU about how African service was not going well because negroes were too lustful. I pass no judgment.

Just to cut back to the topic title, when Janki Kripalani, relative of the "Father of Humanity" Lekhraj Kirpalani, is reported to have said, "black people are the most impure" ... who does she mean?

    President Obama ... Halle Berry ... Nelson Mandela ... Thandie Newton ... Desmond Tutu ... Eddie Murphy ... was Martin Luther King assassinated because he was a murderer in his past life ... has multi-millionaire golfer Tiger Woods particularly "suffered" because of his own evil committed in previous lifetimes; his own bad karma at being black?

    [b]What actually connects these diverse individuals? Who or what is "black people".
Stick with me. This is a typical comment made by a near perfect (Karmateet) Brahma Kumari ... their global leader. One of the Top 8 souls in the world according to her acolytes. Now who or what does she mean by "black"? What gets me is how such bland, or even offensive statements can be passed on as unfathomably deep and beyond my comprehension ... because no one can understand where they come from, show the evidence or explain how. Explain HOW.

Forget Black for a moment. Please just take one incidence and explain me HOW karma "arranges" 20 million Chinese to be starved to death during Mao 's 'Great Leap Forward' over on the Karma topic. What gets me about the Karma gurus is that they always exclude the potential for new bad karma in their equation, e.g. new causeless suffering.

So Janki says to them ... "don't think too much ... don't ask too many questions ... don't ask a question you don't know the answer" for etc. What she does is comfort with the familiar, brush aside any serious questions or ethical issues, and lull back to sleep her babies in my opinion.
Offline
User avatar

joel

ex-BK

  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 01 May 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post12 Dec 2008

ex-l wrote:Actually, there was also a lot of talk in the BKWSU about how African service was not going well because negroes were too lustful. I pass no judgment.

I heard that, too! Is that the highest wisdom of all?
Just to cut back to the topic title, when Janki Kripalani, relative of the "Father of Humanity" Lekhraj Kirpalani, is reported to have said, "black people are the most impure" ... who does she mean?

President Obama ... Halle Berry ... Nelson Mandela ... Thandie Newton ... Desmond Tutu ... Eddie Murphy ... was Martin Luther King assassinated because he was a murderer in his past life ... has multi-millionaire golfer Tiger Woods particularly "suffered" because of his own evil committed in previous lifetimes; his own bad karma at being black?

What actually connects these diverse individuals?

The prejudice of those who judge others by skin color!

I would add that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of accomplished jazz musicians to add to that group. Then we come to another BK gem: music is an addictive distraction to those who would become kings of kings.

Dr. Nirmala, who is surely in line to be one of the nine, if not one of the eight, in a charming nasal voice would say emphatically, "music is Maya." Although music is fundamental to the BKWSU success. No one would come to a center that did not play music. Karuna Shetty told me that when he first began duplicating and selling cassettes that it did not matter what the quality was, as long as there was something to play. I understand, many people find the silence of meditation to be uncomfortable.

Music at the beginning and end. Okay. More power to them, toward whatever they consider morality and purity - the followers that is - the leaders don't need any more power!
Offline
User avatar

primal.logic

ex-BK

  • Posts: 95
  • Joined: 15 May 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post14 Dec 2008

Thanks Joel for once again providing us with a personal, rational and insightful perspective - notably without offending anyone! See, diiogenes, it is possible to be thoughtful, individual and respectful, and to share that humbly with others in an open forum. When I first accused diiogenes of being a BK it was because, I realise in retrospect, because of the tone of the postings - that typical "I AM RIGHT" BK attitude. And the willingness to deride anyone who disagrees as ignorant or just too dumb too "get it". It is that elitist, patronising arrogance that so creeps me out because it so resonates with my years of 'enlightenment' as a BK.

May we go back to the first posting of this thread? -
Hinduism dominated ancient Cambodia before the rise of Bhuddism in the 1400's. In both cases the kings, who represented the pinnacle of the national religion, used the Law of Karma to suppress the masses into acceptance of the status quo. It was simple - the Kings case was - "I am wealthy beyond belief, I have health and power. According to the Law of Karma, I deserve this magnificence as a reward for my past, obviously meritorious, deeds. You, as slaves and peasants, live a life of suffering which is proof of your past, and obviously significant, sins".

Now that sounds like a universal truth to me!

Karma philosophy is the creation of religion. BK teachings state that all the world religions have become impure. Clearly karma philosophy did not help anyone. It was and remains a THEORY that is used by religious leaders to suppress the masses. And it only works because humans are simplistic, reductionist and superstitious by nature. The whole game relies on people equating logical with right. Newsflash - just because something is logical does not make it right diiogenes! Unlike Joel, who has a personal view that takes many things into account, you have simply bought into someone else's ideas, got all excited about it, and then started hitting people with it.
I don't accept it because it provides any handy explanation. I accept it because I understand it to be true, and it's proven in my own life experiences. I find it valuable to gain insights into the workings of the world and karma. It's by this understanding I can become truly useful when circumstances arise, as against just being a good samaritan with good intentions.

You understand it to be true and therefore it is?! And you have proven it how? You have interpreted your life experiences individually and subjectively and now you declare karma to be a universal truth?!

No doubt you scorn psychology, but at least there is some science, research and experimentation - but unlike you they will never declare anything to be proven. Psychologist will tell you that experience is the proof of nothing - the study of the brain has revealed how easily manipulated the human experience is.

And are you a good Samaritan with good intentions? What proof do you have of that? Or have you managed to trick your self into proving your benevolent self?
Inexplicable to you, perhaps. There's a big difference between something being unfathomable and it being fathomless. It's your perogative to hold that opinion, and to my amusement to know how wrong you are.

Well we are glad there is someone as wise as you to fathom it all for us. And amused? Is that your humble self speaking o good Samaritan?
Things getting a little close to the bone for you fellas? You certainly don't mind dishing it out, but when someone shows your agenda and practices for what they are, you want to take your bat and ball and go home.

Joel has engaged with you very constructively. Even if he doesn't consider himself a 'fella' I think he could only throw his hands in the air and walk away from this one. And you have now proven some hidden agenda and practices that were hidden from the world - ON THE INTERNET??

This site was created so that we can share and learn from each other during the transition from BK fundamentalism to normality and reason. This is not an agenda to be hidden or attacked.
Offline
User avatar

joel

ex-BK

  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 01 May 2006

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post14 Dec 2008

Hi Primal,

I am not walking away, rather waiting. I'd asked some questions to confirm if he believes that accepting a formulation of the Law of Karma is a precondition to moral behavior and to effectively manifesting one's intentions to help others.

I'd like to distinguish between universal principles and personal experience. Judging from his writing, Diiogenes seems to have had experiences that his understanding of karma give him a unique advantage in being able to accept and to help others. Which I can respect, even while hearing the language of "right" and "wrong" which raises a red flag for me.

I am also interested to hear if D. is interested in talking more about his life in general - in the appropriate thread of course. I see he has written a lot about his early experiences in BK Gyan with Lee James. I haven't read much from him writing about his current life and state of mind. Perhaps he is self-sufficient in his life and relationships, and doesn't seek that kind of exchange. Of course, his writing does say a lot about himself, as all our writing reveals ourselves.
Offline

jann

friends or family of a BK

  • Posts: 1225
  • Joined: 29 Jan 2007
  • Location: europe

Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post15 Aug 2012

From: Mormonism and Black Skin by Dr. Edward Dr. Dalcour
    But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil"

    - (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332
When Mormon missionaries come to the door of literally thousands of potential converts they will assure the unsuspecting that they represent "Jesus Christ" and are preaching His Gospel. However, that is not the case on many accounts. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) cannot escape their racist past. For nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church had taught that ALL blacks were cursed. Hence, a black Mormon male could not hold the highly regarded LDS Priesthood1 because of his dark skin. And since he could not hold this Priesthood, he could not enter the Mormon Temple. This doctrine in no way, shape, or form can be substantiated in Scripture. Only in the LDS scriptures does this racist doctrine exist.

To determine official LDS doctrine from unofficial speculation let us read the statements that were made by the General Authorities of the LDS Church as well as citations from the LDS "standard works." So then, official LDS teaching cannot be evaded or denied as many Mormons (especially uninformed missionaries) often do.

Cursed in Pre-existence

But, before we read what LDS leaders have taught concerning the "cursed line," we will need to go back and discover as to why dark skinned people are cursed. Then we will have a better understanding of Mormon thought on this issue. Mormons teach that when the "council of the Gods" were planning how to redeemed mankind Jesus desired to save man by giving them their free choice, however Lucifer objected and wanted to force men to serve God.

LDS scholar Bruce R. McConkie tells us

When the plan of salvation presented ... and when the need for a Redeemer was explained, Satan offered to come into the world as the Son of God and be the Redeemer. "Behold here am I, send me," he said ... But then, as always, he was in opposition to the full plan of the Father, and so he sought to amend and change the terms of salvation; he sought to deny men their agency and to dethrone God (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 193).

Therefore, the Gods rejected Lucifer's plan, which resulted in a war between the good spirit children, and the spirit children that sided with Lucifer (a third of them). But there was a group of spirits that were less valiant in this war. Hence, God (the head God) was very displeased with them so He turned their skin black. Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith explains:

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws th`at were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less ... There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie furthers this teaching
    Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin ... Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood ... the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern ... " (Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).

    Now, we can have more of a clearer perspective as to why the LDS would teach such blatant racism that Scripture never condones. Now we will read what LDS General Authorities had taught concerning the, what they termed, "cursed lineage," that is, dark skinned people (particularly Negroes).
LDS Presidents/Prophets

Joseph Smith first president, prophet, and founder of the Mormon Church:
    "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218; emphasis added).

    "Thursday, 8--Held Mayor's court and tried two negroes for attempting to marry two white women: fined one $25, and the other $5" (ibid., 6: 210).

    "and the rebellious niggers in the slave states ... " (Millennial Star, 22:602; emphasis added).

    When Mormon Historians reprinted this in the History of the Church, they change it to read:

    "and the rebellious negroes in the slave states ... " (History of the Church, 6:158; emphasis added).
Brigham Young second President and Prophet:
    "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind ... Cain slew his Brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree" (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

    "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be." (ibid., 10:110; emphasis added)
Brigham Young stated that his sermons (as cited above) are Scripture:

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture". (ibid., 13:95).

John Taylor, third President and Prophet.
    "After the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God ... ". (ibid., 23:304; emphasis added).
That the "curse lineage" (dark skin) is Satan's representation on earth, was taught clearly by the third President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, John Taylor. Taylor goes on to teach:
    "When he [Satan] destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian worlds, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth." (ibid., 23:336; emphasis added).
Wilford Woodruff, who became the fourth President and Prophet of the LDS Church:
    "What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them". (Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).
Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth President and Prophet.

In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:
    "I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church". (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79; emphasis added).
Smith also taught that "Negroes" were inferior to other races:
    "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the Father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren--children of God---notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness". (The Way to Perfection, 101-02; emphasis added).
And, as previously quoted, Smith stated that
    "There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages... The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits". (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66; emphasis added).
LDS General Authorities

Orson Pratt, LDS Apostle:
    "Among the Saints [Mormons] is the most likely place for these [pre-existent] spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage [white parentage]. They are sent to that people that are the most righteous of any other people upon the earth ... The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage [African negroes] upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being". (Journal of Discourses, 1:63; emphasis added)
Mark E. Peterson, LDS Apostle:
    "President Woodruff added, 'The Lord said, 'I will not kill Cain, but I will put a mark upon him, and that mark will be seen upon every face of every Negro, upon the face of the earth. And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption. Any man having one drop of the blood of Cain in him cannot receive the Priesthood". (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address given by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added)
In the same address, Peterson goes on to say:
    "Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man or was it God? ... The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse--as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse ... And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood. Are we prejudiced against him? Unjustly, sometimes we are accursed of having such a prejudice ...

    This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, they may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost ...

    If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would be cursed as to the Priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the Priesthood? If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse ... There are 50 million Negroes in the United States. If they were to achieve complete absorption with the white race, think what that would do. With 50 million Negroes inter-married with us, where would the priesthood be? Who could hold it, in all America? Think what that would do to the work of the Church! ... Now we are generous with the Negro.

    We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that that they have all the advantages as they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change it?" (ibid.; emphasis added)
George A. Smith, LDS apostle:
    "There is not a man, from the President of the United States to the Editors of their sanctorums, clear down to the low-bred letter-writers in this Territory, but would rob the coppers from a dead nigger's eyes, if they had a good opportunity". (Journal of Discourses, 5:110; emphasis added).
Bruce R. McConkie, LDS apostle and prolific writer:
    "Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned ...". (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current).

    "Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the Father of the negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through that lineage". (ibid.,109; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).

    "Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry." (ibid., 114; current ed.; emphasis added)
Is this Christian?

Did Jesus or the Apostles teach prejudice on the basis of skin color? These racist teachings, which were clearly taught by the leaders of the Mormon Church, echo those of the Skinhead, K.K.K. and other destructive groups. This, is not Christianity (which says):
    "Then Peter open his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him". (Acts 10:34; emphasis added)

    "God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean". (ibid., 10:28)
Let us conclude by examining the LDS scriptures, which indicates plainly that dark skin was a sign of Gods curse.

Book of Mormon
    1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary), "she was exceedingly fair and white."

    1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites), "became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

    1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles), "they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain."

    2 Nephi 5:21, "a sore cursing ... as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

    2 Nephi 30:6 (prophecy to the Lamanites if they repented), "scales of darkness shall begin to fall ... they shall be a white and delightsome people" ("white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome" in 1981).

    Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed), "whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins ... ".

    Jacob 3:8-9 "their skins will be whiter than yours... revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins ... ".

    Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion."

    Alma 3:9 "whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."

    Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) "set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed ... ".

    Alma 23:18, "[Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them."

    3 Nephi 2:14-16 "Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites and ... became exceedingly fair ... ".

    3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples), "they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness ... nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof… and behold they were white, even as Jesus."

    Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites), "for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us ... "
Pearl of Great Price
    Moses 7:8 "a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan ... ".

    Moses 7:12 "Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [i.e., except] the people of Canaan, to repent ... ".
    Moses 7:22, "... for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them."

    Abraham 1:21, "... king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth."

    Abraham 1:27, "Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood ... " (emphasis added to above citations).
The truth is: Mormonism does not represent Jesus Christ or His Church. The LDS teachings of the "Negro" are not consistent with, as well as, contradict Scripture.

In 1978, the LDS god changes his Mind

Because of this racist teaching, the LDS Church was under enormous political pressure. Hence, June 8, 1978, LDS President, Spencer W. Kimball, after spending many hours in the "Upper Room" of the LDS Temple, claimed that God had removed the curse. All worthy black men could now receive the Priesthood.

This, was a major doctrinal change. Mormons will usually argue: "But it was said that eventually the curse would be removed." However, this assertion cannot be found before 1978. Therefore, we will again, appeal to the official teachings of the LDS General Authorities. What the LDS General Authorities did teach was that the curse would not be removed in this life. LDS Prophet Brigham Young explains, under, so-called, divine revelation:2

How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion (Journal of Discourses, 7:290-91; emphasis added).

Young was clear: "they [blacks] never can hold the Priesthood ... until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof." The time when the descendants of Adam (white men) are redeemed is at the resurrection, not in this life. According to Mormonism that has not happen yet. Keep in mind, Young declared:

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture (ibid., 13:95).

Mark E. Peterson, LDS apostle agrees:
    "And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption". (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added; see above).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie comments as to the duration of the curse:
    "Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them ...". (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current; see above).
As observed, and with most non-Christian cults, the god of Mormonism is a changing god. It changes its mind. The God of the Bible does not change:
    "For I am the LORD, I change not ... " (Mal. 3:6).

    "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou are the same, and thy years shall have no end". (Ps. 102:25-27).
Even the Book of Mormon agrees with this point:
    "Now, the decrees of God are unalterable ... " (Alma 41:8).3
Mormonism teaches: "The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned ... " (McConkie, see above).

In the end, Mormons reject the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: Preach the Gospel to all nations (cf. Matt. 28:19-20), thus "all nations" certainly includes Africa.

Notes

1. In the Mormon religion there are two priesthoods: Aaronic and the Melchizedek. The Aaronic is the lesser of the two. To have eternal life (i.e., exaltation to Godhood) the "worthy" (and married) Mormon male must be ordained to this higher Priesthood (Melchizedek). This Priesthood is excluded from all females. Thus for nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church taught that dark skinned people (partially Africans) could not gain true salvation, eternal life (i.e., Godhood in the highest heaven: the celestial kingdom).

2. Just as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Peter, and Paul were actual prophets and apostles, in LDS theology the titles, "Prophet" and "Apostle" are literal. Thus, Mormons say that when they are giving sermons they are in fact, speaking for God.

3. Concerning the "decrees" of God, LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson stated: "And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption" (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added; see above).
PreviousNext

Return to Commonroom

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests