The Tao of the Traveller

Chai Bhai,

You are politely doing so, as if you have not understood the point in the posts. Ms orange and her special supporters who came one by one to the Forum and left, did so also, but in an irritating and arrogant way. You are changing the subject sweetly. Good choice.

I don't see any point to discuss Gyan with you. Hope you will find others to chat about spiritual movies.

Best wishes

Hello tom,

I am sorry if I am not getting it. Really! I guess I support the film because I saw it and I really did like it. I think it is good to show spiritual knowledge through performance and film. It is a way to give people an experience. For me this is something new, and I do get so tired of people giving speeches. I cannot tell you how refreshing it was for me! And I think it is important to present the essence of Gyan in a way that means people do not have to deal with so many things like Lakshmi & Narayan, Shiv Baba and Brahma Baba and all of that. But just the essence of it, so people can relate to some spiritual ideas that talk about peace, meditation and god.

It is staying with the essence that keeps me in Gyan I think. There are so many reasons to leave and only one to stay. I apologise if I have not replied in a proper way. I am new to this forum and there are so many ideas, it is quite overwhelming. I have never thought about many of these things. I do thank you and also everyone for bringing things up. I think this is important. We should talk about everything, openly and frankly, but please give me a chance to get up to speed. I am not that intelligent - I mean, I am not stupid either, but honestly I lead a pretty simple life. If you do not want to talk Gyan with me that is okay, but I thought this forum was supposed to be for everyone. Maybe even old fashioned BKs who are nobodies in a sense. I really would like to talk about anything, but do not hold it against me if I do not get it. It may be that I just do not get it!

Anyway, I will be around. I do not have my own computer, so I will have to come and go but I would like to drop in and be part of the conversation here.

With peace and respect to everyone. I think it is good to have open respectful conversations. It is about time.

Thanking you, chai Bhai

Chai Bhai,

Please stay around and take time. This forum is yours as much as it is ours. I wish you to take advantage from the efforts of previous posters who have devoted incredible time and effort and have put their souls into searching for truth. Just take time, please read the threads and inculcate. Doing so my life changed positively, I wish this to all.

Best wishes

Yeah, its interesting, ms orange/Tamasin Ramsay went on about "the Great Silence" as well, so its obviously doing the rounds of the BKWSU intelligensia, but we could not actually get her to say whether the donations to BK were gross or net profits. She just went blurry on us about all the details. Its funny, the BKs become more like the masons every day where the only donations you give, and are expect to, are to their own charities. Charities which run as PR masking the real event.

Fine if you want to playing it dumb, I'll let it go but the difference between Philip Gröning and 'BK Ramsay, Inc' is that Gröning was NOT making a promotional service device for the 'Carthusian Order of the Grande Chartreuse' as BK Ramsay, Inc were for Baba and the BKWSU. Gröning was making a movie in the hope to raise funds to make more movies.

Tom raises one ethical issue, I raised the other. Which was all to do with how individuals use BK facilities, networks and service items to sell and promote themselves, e.g. "good for my professional career", and this was the debate about whether it was independent or not. In this case, was Robin punting it round the film festival to promote his own career or to promote his Baba?

He might not make money but he makes connections and in the movies ... it is all about the next deal.

I openly criticise from a spiritual point of view Robin Ramsay in particular, more than any other BK (even Brian Bacon), for assidously working the Brahma Kumari networks for the benefit of his own professional interests ... so much so that I cannot tell which is which. Of course, perhaps he "cleanses his karma" with the family money. Goodness me, the Divine Ones appreciate that the most and I am sure he has his will written out already. On the other hand, perhaps he has reached the idea sate of surrender where everything is Baba's.

Again, in life one is pretty free to do what one wishes ... but I would say it all lowers the spiritual tone for it all to be muddied. In fact, adding these all together, I would go as far to say that so many elements lowering the spiritual tone that if this is the best the BKWSU can do it is sunk ... and I wish they would remove their mud from the River Tao and stick to their own religion.

They could not though, you see. "Brahma Kumari" does not SELL so well as the cool "Tao" does. Its all down to marketing in the end. The public should know what it is getting before it has to commit.

It did not look like to me that Robin Bhai was trying to use it to have a film career. I think he already had quite a successful one for a long time, so it seems pretty hilarious that he would use this little film that is hardly a block buster (although very nice) to try and jumpstart a film career at the age of seventy something. Only he knows, but I do not think so.

I think I understand what you are saying above. Is it that it does not promote Raja Yoga philosophy openly and do you think maybe it should say that? That on the DVD it should say something like 'this is based on the philosophy of Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga'. Do you think? Perhaps it should, but I still think it is fine. It is so benign, any money from it is going to good causes and people get a good experience. So there must be bigger demons to fight against in the world I think, if one does want to fight against something. I do not know what to say, but I can not quite get why this is such a problem. Sorry if my replies are inept - I feel a little out of my depth in this thread I am afraid. But I will look at other ones.

Thanking you though. It is good to be involved in some different conversations with people having different perspectives.
chai

Which was all to do with how individuals use BK facilities, networks and service items to sell and promote themselves, e.g. "good for my professional career", and this was the debate about whether it was independent or not. In this case, was Robin punting it round the film festival to promote his own career or to promote his Baba?

You are right ex-l, nobody from the audience will know that it is all about The Knowledge told in the 7 days Raja Yoga course in BKWSU. From this point of view it is "Selling Gyan".

If we put Gyan aside, from ethical and legal point of view there is a great difference between one enthusiastic independent young producer who makes his first film putting all his borrowed money without knowing if anybody will watch his film and Robin Ramsay as a celebrity actor and Senior BK financing and producing ToTT, being sure that it will have a great chance selling the DVDs to hundred thousands of BKs, and even more. Plus the chance showing the film in the film festivals and selling it round the globe to the film distributors for lokik audience with copyright and commissions, plus copyrights from TV broadcasting round the globe.

All big or independent producers announce with pride how much the production's costs are. It is also a legal obligation. Even more at this ToTT film, because the PR network of a charity World Renewal Trust aka BKWSU and Janki Foundation as accepting the income from the DVD (both not paying any taxes) are involved. The film is already expected from BKs in more than 8,000 BK centers. Of course Robin Ramsay is obliged to announce how much the production cost was, how much for the master DVD he has paid, what percentage of the market price is cost and what percentage is going to which charity. The charity's name should be also announced. I find Chai Bhai's suggestion of showing on the DVD that by buying this DVD "they will support the tribal health care in India" blurry, not clear. It should be clearly fixed what percentage of the price is going to which charity's account.

As long as the above issues are not clearly and legally stated, Ramsey family and BKWSU have no right to blame the members of this forum questioning the "Silence" of the Ramsays' on ethical and financial issue.

He might not make money but he makes connections and in the movies ... it is all about the next deal.

Of course it is a different career becoming a well known art film producer than being a celebrity actor.

I openly criticize from a spiritual point of view Robin Ramsay in particular, more than any other BK (even Brian Bacon), for assiduously working the Brahma Kumari networks for the benefit of his own professional interests ... so much so that I cannot tell which is which.

I am sure thousands of BKs will think like this, whisper amongst themselves like this, but will never have the courage to speak loudly although they have all rights to ask about Gyani aspect as well as the financial issue. They have surrendered their lives to BKWSU. It is also our right. We have surrendered decades of our lives to BKWSU.

and I wish they would remove their mud from the River Tao and stick to their own religion. They could not though, you see. "Brahma Kumari" does not SELL so well as the cool "Tao" does. Its all down to marketing in the end. The public should know what it is getting before it has to commit.

Unfortunately, the BKWSU leadership together with Ramsay family made a huge mistake by using that title with "Tao". Which means from the point of ethics deceiving the consumer, you may say, in a subtle way.

Is it that it does not promote Raja Yoga philosophy openly and do you think maybe it should say that? That on the DVD it should say something like 'this is based on the philosophy of Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga'.

Personally, I do not think that the Brahma Kumaris should be using the term Raja Yoga. It too was stolen from another tradition, so using Taoism is to be expected.

I suspect they will even have the audacity to suggest that by doing so they are "promoting other religions" like their charity registration says so. It wont be true.

Yes, I absolutely think so and underline Tom's comments above. Legally, even in the impure Kali Yuga, it is just not good enough to make some vague statement. By law you have to saw.

In the topic on BK musician's 'Bliss' we raised the issue of how they were able to turn around their involvement within the BK so-called family and make money out of it. They too turned around and gave some, I don't know how much, to BK charities which the BKWSU will be able to claim an additional tax profit from.

This is why I asked gross of net profit. If each of the 8,000 BK centers buys one DVD at $20 ... which might even be "Shrimat" for the "sake of service" ... that is $160,000. If 10% of BK buys one as a "pure" serviceable gift to give to a non-BK ... that is $1,600,000. So that takes us up to $1,760,000 already. Is there a "Third World" price or is it one price for all?

The Village Outreach Programme and GRC, all respect to Sister Laxsmi for facing up to the leadership to start it, are run for the benefit of the BKWSU and so, to my mind, that $1,760,000 is largely going to the BKWSU PR budget.

Whereas the actual cost of a DVD is, what, $1 or 2 Dollars ... the cost of allowing downloads is free. So the question arises, is it to make money (for what), or is it for service, or is it for his film making career? Allow free downloads and all individual BKs have to do is burn it at home or for friends at cost ... for the sake of maximum service.

The other minor question raised was the source of the family wealth ... and how kosher an inheritance gained from war profits via the Kiwi industry is. Generally, the BKs do not care where the cash comes from ... they apparently offering a "spiritual money laundering service". By "spiritual money laundering service" ... before I get this site in legal difficulties with the BKWSU again ... I mean by not questioning the source, and not even caring if the source is BK or not as the Maryadas instruct, they "wash" the dirty karma off money for people by accepting it for their own purposes ... purifying it and offer privileges to the donors and their families ... Maryadas following or not.

Exactly as the Medieval Catholic Church did with regard the Pope's "indulgences".

I could not find a breakdown of DVD production but here is a breakdown of your average music CD for comparison. Naturally, in the case of Bliss, The Tao of the Traveller and other BKWSU related products, many of the costs have been removed. Especially now that the BKWSU have their own media production studios or co-opt others funded by other people's money.

CD_costs.gif (22.95 KiB) Viewed 16613 times

See my comments on another money related topic.

This is why I asked gross of net profit. If each of the 8,000 BK centers buys one DVD at $20 ... which might even be "Shrimat" for the "sake of service" ... that is $160,000. If 10% of BK buys one as a "pure" serviceable gift to give to a non-BK ... that is $1,600,000. So that takes us up to $1,760,000 already. Is there a "Third World" price or is it one price for all?

Hello. I have heard that all the centres are getting free copies which I think is good. I cannot remember when I heard that, but maybe it was after the public program I went to.

chai

According to this thread everyone can make and sell DVDs for a profit - except the BK. The point being made here is that it is unethical to make money out of selling God's Knowledge because it should be free. The people who shout loudest do not believe in God, or at least God through the BK organisation. So this is a situation where those who do not believe are telling those that do believe how to believe. Unbelievable!

The notion that the BK should be whiter than white is misguided, nothing can be whiter than white itself.

Hello john ... what an intellect you have. you must enjoy your own company a lot!!

chai

The people who shout loudest do not believe in God or at least God through the BK organisation.

I may not be loud but I am still an active BK, full time surrendered living in a Center as they call it, and I do agree with ex-l about the money issue, amongst others.

bkti-pit, boy that was quick. You posted before I even had the time to click on 'refresh'. I am really mulling over what you are saying regarding the financial side of things, but I have a quandry about it that I posted on the thread about money (sorry, I cannot remember what it is called - I blame all my spelling errors, memory lapses, and um ... other things ... yeah ... on ... where was I? Oh yeah ... I blame it on weed!) so ... what was I saying? Oh yes - could you have a look at the thread about money and have a look at my first post. I would very much like your thoughts, especially because you are an active 'surrendered' BK like me. It is good to get your perspective as well as souls who may no longer be 'in Gyan'.

Thanking you, chai

hello. i have heard that all the centres are getting free copies which i think is good. i cannot remember when i heard that, but maybe it was after the public program i went to.

Hi Chai, Welcome!

I guess you have many BKs friends and you are not banned from any centre so I wonder, do you discuss about the aim of this film with them? Or as you said you just enjoy everything and let everything else roll under, like roll under the carpet, including selling Gyan!?

And thanks for the news you are bringing in with you. Seems that the effort of this forum is reaching out there and few souls are even getting the DVDs free of charge!

Warrior

Hi Chai Bhai,

Nice of you to speak to me directly, I find your posts like the garum chai clarion call that broke up my thirsty Indian railway journeys ... most refreshing!

And bkti-pit, We all have ethical considerations and whilst I too agree with much of what ex-I says (let's keep smileys out of it ) we do not yet exactly know all about the BK financing and distribution of these DVDs. In fact, we've had nothing at all from the "horse's mouth."

I could object to buying anything (in the UK) because taxes are not spent wisely. There is a similar element of compulsion if profits from the sale of this DVD (which have not yet materialised) go to a charitable organisation. We cannot control everything. I intend to purchase a copy of this DVD when it becomes available, it will help me know what I am talking about.

The BK have ethical considerations. Their story unfolds as does our individual stories. Fortunately my own story is not subject to the same meticulous scrutiny, here at any rate. Perhaps this is my real point.

I could object to buying anything (in the UK) because taxes are not spent wisely.

You raise a good point John.

If the BKWSU wanted to cut costs, and be seen not to profit financially according to Shrimat, then they could just print them in India and send them out from there. it would work out much cheaper. BKWSU India HAS to have a duplication suite by now ... if they can afford laser light shows, they can afford copiers with coolie labour attached.

But, of course, the movie is NOT a BKWSU service project (... oh, no). It is an independent production (... allegedly). And so I do not suppose that will happen and instead all the franchised businesses along the Beakie supply chain will get their commission on it. Jeez ... when will these guys get enlightened. Ethical consumerism is a BIG thing in the impure Kali Yuga.

For much less than the cost of printing all that plastic and mailing around the world, they could lease their own dedicated server and internet connection allowing free download.