The Tao of the Traveller

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
  • Message
  • Author
User avatar

alladin

no label

  • Posts: 917
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2007

The dignity of calling oneself as EX

Post13 Mar 2008

Yes, we are all souls, with different roles and different ethics and points of view. What is unacceptable or stinks for me, may be attractive and fragrant for someone else. Out of many reasons why people distanced themselves from the BKWSO, I think, a big one is that of the questionability of its "clarity" and moral standards. Sure, anything goes, if it can be justified as service in some way.

So, some react, quoting tete
tete wrote:"Many here including primal.logic, Howiemac and others were lured by the miss use of Raja Yoga which is not the classical Patajali's Raja Yoga. Could the use of Tao now be used to lure in new members thinking it is the ancient Chinese path of Tao?"

and ex-l
ex-l wrote: I am generally critical of the fact the BKWSU does not clearly label its service as such, BKs do not make clear their relationships and present themselves as independents etc ... and taking the name of another religion 'crosses the line'.

feeling indignation, or that the BKWSO has betrayed them and its own principles.

If we take this organization down from the pedestal of perfection it has put itself onto, we realize that certain behaviours are perfectly normal in this world where things are advertised and sold all the time with no scruples, brainwashing and cheating people, infringing laws hoping not to get caught. Since Tao is not a trademark, neither is "Raja Yoga", it is not a very risky marketing trick to borrow such terms. Those who consider this as impudence, have no choice but to step out from the BKWSO and be proud to call themselves as "ex BKs".

ranee

BK

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post13 Mar 2008

Thanks for replying Bansy. That's pretty much a no-no then? :( I don't know MsOrange/Tamasin although I've heard of Robin Ramsay, but I suppose I just felt some empathy for the feeling she had of participating in some pretty personal faceless interview, but I can follow your point of view (I think!).
bansy wrote:Though I much prefer the message to simply say 'this is God and I am Shiva'

But I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you here? I think it was Robert Hughes who in the course of a lament on the state of contemporary Art in general, once opined that it was becoming increasingly rare to come across artistic endeavor that profoundly moved the spirit, still less so if the direction of that endeavor has been tainted with some desire to appease it's critics. I do wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.

By the way, I am glad to know that at least someone's actually spending LESS time at the computer, maybe time to fit in the "real" Angkor Wat? I'd sincerely hope that you would have a very different experience to the googlised version! :o

Ranee
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10661
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post14 Mar 2008

ranee wrote:I suppose I just felt some empathy for the feeling she had of participating in some pretty personal faceless interview, but I can follow your point of view (I think!).

Everyone hates being caught out in public but all the beakies have to do is be open and honest about what they are up to.

There is a difference between have one's spirit moved and have one's spirit seduced. Many things move mine in art or real life; seeing others fight injustice, resistance movements, inequalities, intellectual aspiration. Even within the BK context, I respect those that make sacrifices to follow Maryadas and those who attempt to resolve the philosophical anomalies the system throws up.

Its just that times seemed to have changes and more and more Brahmakumaris and their followers appear to be peeling off and taking little commissions from the main event. So when something like this comes up, naturally I am suspicious. I will leave it to the cast's own conscience as to whether it is worth discussing in public or not.

ranee

BK

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post14 Mar 2008

ex-l wrote: There is a difference between have one's spirit moved and have one's spirit seduced. Many things move mine in art

Ah yes, then surely as a kindred spirit you might agree that we art lovers can be a disparate bunch? Some preferring their art to assuage their preconceptions, whilst others hope for quite the reverse! And then of course there's that dissident little clique who gamely try to leave all such preconceptions firmly at the door ...

Interesting space. A good weekend to all.

Ranee
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10661
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post15 Mar 2008

ranee wrote:Ah yes, then surely as a kindred spirit you might agree that we art lovers can be a disparate bunch?

The more diversity, the better. The more informed a position, the more appreciative a viewer can be. The critic parries the foil of the artist and by doing so encourages them on to greater, and less derivative, pieces.

We are probably due a topic on the true nature of art and the responsibility of the artist, and this one might just evolve in that direction ... if the artiste herself does not evaporate at the first challenge.
User avatar

ms orange

BK Academic

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 09 Oct 2007

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post19 Mar 2008

Hello again everyone. Sorry I've been away for a while - I am in one of those 'exotic' places and internet access is not easily come by here. At the risk of sounding repetitive to ex-l, I have been and am being as straight as I possibly can. I have explained our use of the term 'Tao' as far as I understand it. It is not used exclusively by Chinese philosophy - some other examples are the Tao of Pooh, the Tao of Poker, the Tao of Physics, the Tao of Mac, the Tao of Programming, the Tao of Star Wars, the Tao of Backup, the Tao of Tea and the Tao of Geek. The was the first page that came up on a goodle search.

And no, I don't know what will happen financially to the proceeds of the film, if there will even be proceeds and where or how it will be distributed. If you choose not to believe me when I say something, there's really not much I can do about it. As I've said a couple of times before, as the producer all that stuff. I sent you his email address so why not just ask him directly?

Also, I know my home address is published elsewhere on the internet, but in a very different context. Just please respect my request for privacy, as I do yours.

With love and peace to everyone,
User avatar

tete

friends or family of a BK

  • Posts: 200
  • Joined: 25 Sep 2007
  • Location: Earth

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post19 Mar 2008

:D

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post20 Mar 2008

My uncle had on one side of his living wall a huge scroll with one word written on it in Chinese characters, 道 = Tao.

Tao penetrates life, you cannot really study it. But I have seen it used in some many "Western ways" in which the Chinese simply ignore it. Yes, a lot of Eastern philosophies are Westernised but Western philosophies are not often Easternised.
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10661
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post20 Mar 2008

Lao Tzu, the first named Taoist philosopher and more than likely just an invention, says at the opening of the Tao Te Ching, "the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao." He also says, "those who know, do not speak; those who speak, do not know."

I was very lucky to discover the Tao Te Ching early in my life and bow to its nigh perfection. It is as applicable within BK life as without it. There are many translations of the original poetry, here is one below taken at random.

I would never profess to knowing what the Tao is but I would say that I do know that to mention the very talkative Janki Kripalani in the same breath as it is like pooping a **** in the Ganges before performing one's ablutions. Especially given that her god and master and relative Lekhraj Khubchand's apparently had no knowledge of it, and does not credit either Lao Tzu or Taoism in his theodicy.

I make no apology for this ms orange (but I do apologise to bansy for lowering the tone of this conversation). Ms orange, please, you have your own religion. Show respect and please don't muddy the waters of another religious tradition.

    Don't use it to sell your own personal or corporate product.
And, please again, I did not post your home address on this forum. You asked me to contact the producers for more information and I posted the address of the production office presuming them to be professional and commercial.

I am just confused now why you would ask me to contact them when it appears ... you are them.
Lao Tsu wrote:The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

When the way of the Tao is forgotten,
kindness and ethics need to be taught;
souls learn to pretend to be wise and good.

All too often in the lives of souls,
filial piety and devotion
arise only after conflict and strife,
just as loyal ministers all too often appear,
when the people are suppressed.

In the meanwhile, any chance of leaking us some of the recent Murlis? There are many starved children outsides of the BKWSU citadel that would benefit from the wealth of your generosity and patronage.

ranee

BK

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post22 Mar 2008

Lao Tzu said, "those who know, do not speak; those who speak, do not know."

Yes, you've obviously meditated deeply on this. :)
ex-l wrote:Show respect and please don't muddy the waters of another religious tradition.

Why, what's that a-rumbling in the distance? Could it be the militant taoist hordes emerging from their caves, descending from their mountain tops, to issue a 'toa-twa' on the insolent blasphemers! :roll:

There's no let up with the polemic then ex-lady? Looking farther afield, it's interesting that others appear sanctioned to fictionalise their personality, - apparently to further enhance their anonymity, and yet on this particular thread you are allowed free reign to get as personal with your speculative enquiry as you like. I suppose just goes to show that you and "Admin" must be close as two peas in a pod, maybe even closer. :wink:

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post22 Mar 2008

Four Taoist monks were sitting together and challenged each other to whoever spoke first.

After fifty hours of silence, the first monk coughed, to which the second replied, "that sounded like words". To which the third monk responded "you spoke". And of course not to be outdone, the fourth monk said "I win, you all spoke".

Yes, it is an old one. :cry:
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10661
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post23 Mar 2008

ranee wrote:Why, what's that a-rumbling in the distance? Could it be the militant taoist hordes emerging from their caves, descending from their mountain tops, to issue a 'toa-twa' on the insolent blasphemers! :roll:

I had the same image in my mind when I posted. I wondered if I could start of the first Taoist Jihad. But the answer is, of course, no. Obviously Sun Tzu stands out first and foremost for applying 5 element theory to military strategy. Guan Yu, Zhang Jiao and the characters of "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms" all stand out. Toaism and war have always gone hand in fist. The basic theory that the one that is closest to "The Tao" is assured of victory, whereas the one that is furthest away, is assured of defeat.

There is a good quote from The Art of War that goes, depending on translation, something like this;
Sun Tzu wrote:The General who knows himself will sometimes win and sometimes lose.
The General who knows neither himself nor his enemy will always be defeated
The General who knows his enemy and himself will never be endangered in a hundred engagements.

If you had been been paying attention closely enough, you would have realised that Admin is not a person but the administrative account for the forum used by moderators.

If you want to say something, just come out and say it, otherwise you are likely to end up looking at best purile and at worst with tamoguni egg on your face. Even in my utter ignorance, I would say using Tao (or even Gyan) to promote one's self or turn a dollar, exploiting the Taoism current caché to promote the BK Gyan or even being purile are all far from the Tao and will ultimate be self-defeating.

I was very fortunate to be inspired early on in this forum's days by an individual, to whom I will always be grateful, who opened my eyes to business corruption that had entered Gyan since I left it. Even in my utter impure and fallen state, I was shocked that things could have gone to rot so far. The one thing that disgusts me the most, a smear BKs often come up with, is this concept of personal ownership they push; I and my, me and mine, you and yours ...

Whatever happened to the ideas of trusteeship, cooperativism, and common ownership as we disappeared down the rabbit holes of contracts, commissions, licenses and trademarks, centers in private ownership? Are BK followers serfs to the landlords or stakeholders in a commonwealth? What we discovered here was that, legally, according to the formative articles, BK followers are not even members because they have none.

ranee

BK

  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post23 Mar 2008

I won't argue that this website exposes a wide range of issues connected with the organisation and philosophy of the Brahma Kumaris. More than enough I would say to quell any interest I might have had personally.

Still, I thought it would be interesting to hear the BK response. However, if the level of hostility conveyed in this thread is anything to go by, I am not at all surprised there has been so little so far.

My initial foray into the "conversation" was only to try and cajole a way forward that might eventually lead to genuine dialogue. But I can see the naivety of that now, for it seems all you actually want to do, is crucify the other party as the personification of the BK establishment.
ex-l wrote:If you want to say something, just come out and say it, otherwise you are likely to end up looking at best purile. If you had been been paying attention closely enough, you would have realised that Admin is not a person but the administrative account for the forum used by moderators.

Oh really? and using terms such as "Beakies" is not I suppose?

Let me speak plainly then.

Further afield another poster asked whether this forum was run as a collective or by a single individual. Two other posters spoke up to say that they had Moderator status, but it was evident from the dialogue, that neither seemed completely certain of their role and that they both believed a single individual to be in overall control.

It's quite amazing how you just have to have the last word on absolutely everything, and for the completely free reign and sheer weight of opinion that you bring to bear, I believe that you are easily the most likely candidate to be that individual.

So there you have it, plain as pie.
User avatar

tom

ex-BK

  • Posts: 363
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2008

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post23 Mar 2008

ranee wrote:It's quite amazing how you just have to have the last word on absolutely everything, and for the completely free reign and sheer weight of opinion that you bring to bear

So what?! Experience and knowledge speaks. Please feel free to share us your experiences and feelings from your BK life. Send your posts to every thread. We will read them with interest.

Without having anything to say attacking one most respected forum member, who's inputs have helped most of us to see things right, is sad.

regards
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10661
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: The Tao of the Traveller

Post27 Mar 2008

Sorry, I am busy right now on other stuff and have a few other posts I want to catch up on first before replying. I left a private message with ranee.

I see there is still no response from the individual who made all the various allegations and they have chosen not to back their claims up with any specific evidence.
PreviousNext

Return to Commonroom