Questioning results in accusation of blasphemy

Documentary :

• Zeitgeist the Movie

"Religious myth is the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish" ... from the Christ myth to 9/11, New World Order and world banking system. Downloadable.

Note the examples given of the "transference principle"; how religions transfer myths, almost identically, from one individual/character to another in the same way they did to Lekhraj Kirpalani.

A myth is an idea while widely believed, is false ... In a deeper sense, in a religious sense, a myth serves as orienting and mobilising story for a people, the focus not on the story's relation to reality but on its function. A story cannot function unless it is believed to be true in the community or nation. It is not a matter of debate.

If some people have the bad taste to raise the question of the truth of the sacred story, the keepers of the faith do not enter into debate with them. They ignore them or denounce them as blasphemers.

Just today, a friend wrote me a mail in which she was sharing the experience she had "after seeing the BKs for what they are, the forum seemed like a breath of fresh air - it is exhilarating being allowed to express ourselves in public, and to discuss those things we had to keep quiet about in the centres ... ". I totally agree.

A word from ex-l post, "blasphemy", made my antennas to stand up. It reawakens memories of witch-hunt, accusations, ban and persecutions. I can almost smell the nauseating stench of flesh burning!! My own!

Although "blasphemy" is not a word which is used by BKs, there are other expressions in the BK language and behaviours that are synonymous of it and of the forms of punishment I just mentioned. Even old pukka and serviceable BKs run the risk of becoming victims, especially if they happen to, at some stage, collide or disagree with SS or someone that in the mafia's hierarchy is higher up. But the most vulnerable ones, are of course "new born children". If you are born as a VIP, or a big mic, you will be pampered. They don't want to lose you too early. Otherwise, you will very soon get some shock-treatment that will teach you that you must show blind faith and obedience. "Kill them before they grow", or whip them so they will not grow "crooked". Very ancient educational system.

Students who show a free spirit and an inquisitive intellect are labeled as "doubtful", followers of "manmat", lacking realization , not belonging to the clan, and as a result they will get a low status and the end of Silver Age.

As new adepts, we are usually eager to belong, to be accepted. In order to please others we learn not to rock the boat too much, and eventually stop asking questions. To most of them there are no convincing answers anyway! I know well the type of treatment people who ask too many questions receive at centers: they are not welcomed at all! Big investment to try and persuade somebody! A sister in charge will look at you with spite or disapproval, and you will learn how to keep your mouth shut. If you want to stay!

Together with some good meditation experiences, etc. we get in the package heaps of repression and an atmosphere that is half way between a concentration-camp and army barracks. Where does that happen? In many centers, retreat centers and even in Madhuban. The house of the Father, where there's some love but law prevails.

p.s. : if an Admin feels like moving the second part of my post to another more appropriate topic (atmosphere at centers? faith and believe? in the Commonroom, or elsewhere), please feel free to do so!

"Defamation" is the usual "fits-all-sizes" condemnation. Defamation of Baba ... Defamation of the Yagya ... Defamation of Dadi ... defamation ... defamation ... defamation. Oh, yes, I have had that thrown at me by pea-brain sized, sorry, immature shall we say BKs, don't worry. You are right alladin, it is back to the middle ages time, yet again.

What does it mean? "I/We do not approve" ... or more like, as all heretics have suffered, "I do not understand and so therefore I want to block it out" or "It challenges my position and so therefore I want to destroy it. Closely followed by disservice. And who are these royal "we's", are they not the same ones that have been promoting false history, funny finances and cover ups ... is that "defamatory? No, that is being pukka and "service".

Actually, even in the Murli, there are other meanings given for it

"Hardly anyone tells the truth. They don't hesitate to tell lies. Maya slaps very good strong children. The Father knows everything. He tells you that you are making a mistake and doing a lot of disservice. Achcha."

BTW, don't you think that out of respect for those victims of actual concentrate camps you ought to keep things a little bit more comparable? Sometimes I wonder/worry about the conditions in the "Hindi class" accommodation and ask what goes in in that world, how all the young Kumaris are treated. It really is quite a divide society with two or more difference levels, is not it? I have never worked out why Westerners were and are given privileges. Bootcamp, yes, probably ... but Auswitch it is not.

Just a few ditties on the topic of Questions.

A question is often a request for further and better information. The person asking a question is a creator. One good reason for asking a the question is when it is highly likely that the reply would be useful in the asker's own creative effort. If such a question is asked and the response is not useful it makes good sense to again examine the reasons why.

There are many other reasons for asking questions, e.g. in an attempt to seem clever, to force a personal agenda or to prove someone else wrong.

It is good to examine the reasons for asking and the reasons for directing a question in a given direction.

It is also good to examine the motivation behind the response to the question, not to forget being clear about ones own response to the reply.

If a person's main activity is forming questions for others to answer constructive introspection will also pay dividends.

Some ask a question, the response leads to another question and another and another.

Some people ask themselves questions and take their own counsel.

Its rare for me to quote King Janak but I remember her once telling the class that "when you ask a question, you should already have an answer in your mind" ... so to your very reasonable points, I would add laziness. We ask questions because we are too lazy to think and work out answers and behind that there is a 'passing over of responsibilities'. Yes, studying not the word or action but the intention behind any words or action is most important.

By passing over our responsibility of the answer to the teacher. We are relinquishing the responsibility of the consequences to them also. So, if it all goes wrong or the answer is wrong, for example, we can blame them instead of ourselves, "But she told me so ..." etc. The deal is, we put you on a pedestal so we can take you off it later.

Of course, there is the genuine study of "how to think" rather than "what to think". How does the BKWSU measure in that department? My feeling is that rather than learning "how to think", the emphasis is on "what to think" and even more than that, a practised conformity of thought, word and actions. There cant be any real encouragement of questioning ... remember Janki quotes elsewhere on this forum about "not thinking ... we have nothing more to think about" etc.

I think it was a Scandinavian educationalist, Holstrom who said, "Universities are places where pebbles and polished and diamonds are dulled".

A few more (stronger) ditties on the subject of questions.

I recall meeting with Didi in Madhuban. She said to me, "These Sisters are all the same". I could not agree with her though, her comment did and does point to a uniformity in training and as a consequence of that a uniformity in thinking.

The Godly university is an institution and conformity is seen as a sign of progress. There are various timetables and disciplines that students are encouraged to follow. In the course of learning, the questions; who, what, why, how, if and when arise naturally in every student's mind. They arise so much that there are many Murli's dealing with the "queue of questions" topic.

The disciplines of Raja Yoga throw a person back on themselves. To awaken and develop the deep spiritual memories that are latent in each individual or "soul " is no easy matter, it requires dedication and discipline on the part of both student and teacher(s).

Sometimes I ask myself the question (here we go again!), "At what point would the interests of the student be seen as threatening the growth of the university?". To restate the question slightly differently, "When does a student become so troublesome that they are banned or things are made so difficult for them that they decide to leave the study?". It is old wisdom that one rotten apple can spoil the barrel. The BKs are in the business of transforming rotten apples into healthy ones, though many are still discarded. Not only are they discarded but such are the conscious and subconscious methods of teaching, that these apples often feel as if they are rotten to the core. Admittedly there are the sanskaras of the individual to take into account here, even so the entire experience is one from which it can take a long time to recover.

Many have said that the BKs need to work on "Duty of Care." Punishment for asking questions, one aspect of this duty, is of course totally absurd. Were the BKs the adopt the motto, "There are no foolish questions, merely foolish answers" and treat each question with the respect that it deserves, it would to my mind be progressive. Students suffering from "Questionitus" should be treated as patients and not threats, they may even be bringing attention to areas where progress can and should be made.

At various (possibly more public) times, Dadi Janki has been credited with giving importance to the seemingly most idiotic questions. She had pretty much mastered Gyan before she first came to England and is the author of "No Mercy, Shiva Baba is stupid but Brahma Baba is no fool". A book that will never be an official publication though many have had painful previews. The BKs may be beginning to realise that many students that have left or continued the study outside the BK fold are no fools either. These Iron Age practises of ostracisation no longer have a useful place in The Confluence Age. One of the major attributes of divine rule is intelligence, it would be nice to see a little more please.

And a little more Mercy and a few more Murli's and ... !

Of course, a lot of the basic question and answer stuff could be taken of by a website a bit like this one where there is a Wiki/Encyclopedia and Murlis on offer. So many of the questions will be identical and we collective effort, meanings and experiences can be shared, refined, discussed and documented so individuals can see the progression in thought.

Personally, I think part of the "question and answer" format of "Guru and Chela" (whether in the BKWSU or outside of it) is to super-impose the position of the Guru in guddhi upon the chela's (student/follower) mind. In short, to set up a dependency relationship. Theoretically, it is a good thing. The accomplished Guru becomes the center of the world for the unaccomplished chela and guides the chela to the mind state the guru has, often involving the breaking down of the "unaccomplished mind state" using a variety of techniques. It goes without saying it is a system is open to abuse ...

In the BKWSU, there is meant to be no guru between you and God. However, more and more the Seniors Sisters and images of humans are being used to super-impose upon the followers minds, even be worshipped or remembered because they are so close to that God. Those super-impositions (e.g. the Brahma Trance lights, the billboard sized posters, even the word "Baba" becomes a shorthand not for God but the human institution behind them.

Personally, and this goes back to the days where there were only a handful of us sitting together, I found that if you attempted to question some Seniors beyond their comfort zones or push them beyond their "act" (and I am thinking of Janki on one occasion specifically here), they would become irritable and dismissive. Yes, there was group pressure just to shut up, sit back and "be a good yogi". Become a good Parrot but not think too much.

Now, I know I am not entirely stupid. I know that my question was reasonable in comparison to many others. And I know it was relative deeply question. (They say "Baba gives us power", I was asking about the mechanism by which he "give us power?" or what that meant). Others have put forward the argument that Westerners get it wrong by being too intellectual ... but there are plenty of intelligent intellectual Indians! I don't think that is right. I do think that the leadership has not want followers to "burden their intellects" with too many details as the details are too ropey whereas.

As I understand it, in the authentic Guru Chela relationship, the guru would be honest and at the point the chela reach the guru's limits, they would say, "I don't know. You will have to go and ask so-and-so". Here the "one-technique-cures-all" BKWSU system denies that there are any superior gurus, alternative techniques or even spiritual realms to seek, it is not willing to hand over their position above others nor their financial supporters from underneath them to others.

A new mistranslation for "the Buck (as in dollar) stops here" perhaps?

Let's imagine a circumstance where a person really wishes to know whether God exists or not. Say it is a burning question in their mind and they are true seekers really wishing to to know the truth. We are not talking here about everyday things, we are taking about something very special indeed. Is there truly one soul who is the Father of all? Say that person happens in the course of their search to enter a BK centre and asks, "I have heard that you talk about God but do you really know him?" Is that person going to be accused of blasphemy? Of course not! According to the depth and sincerity of the question there will be a response.

There is a story about a king who wished to have his whole kingdom carpeted, his advisors came up with the idea to carpet his shoes. The King was happy and the treasury remained intact. To some degree or other we are all like this king. We walk around considering this and that always letting our "carpet" touch everything we come in contact with. Sometimes the "carpet" needs a good clean and everything looks very muddy, and sometimes the "carpet" is clean and everything is bright.

When we need help, it is best to ask for it. The trouble is that often we do not realise that we really do need help. It is not a matter of disgrace, everyone needs temporary help at sometime. Often people are in situations where help is available but they resist it. It could be important to them that they know best or are in control or top dog. Whatever the reason our "carpet" stops us from asking. A really dirty "carpet" can even result in true friends being perceived as enemies.

A good healthy robust spiritual education can clean our "carpet," it can open up worlds of potentiality and opportunity that were undreamt of before our "carpet" was cleaned. It so happens that the BKs are experts at cleaning "carpets." So how do you know if you need help? Take an honest look at your own life, are you healthy happy and prosperous with incredible opportunities all around? If not consider getting your "carpet" cleaned. The BKs can show you how to do it! They will of course put you in touch with the "Master Carpet Cleaner."

Motto 1: "If your "carpet" is dirty learn how to clean it"

Motto 2: "Your truest friends can be mistaken for your worst enemies"

Motto 3: "Honest, sincere and progressive questions are just fine"

Motto 4: Perhaps ... "all BKs will clean your carpet some of the time and some BK will clean your carpet all of the time, but not all BKs will clean your carpet all of the time." Some will clean your carpet and then walk all over you ... and some will take your wallet for doing so.

I wish I was as confident as you, john ... I think we are all equal apprentices at carpet cleaning. Practising with your own rug first before you start playing with other peoples'.

Hi ex-|,

I have never had a BK clean my carpet, though I used to clean carpets at Tennyson Road.

We clean our own "carpet" though the proximity of experienced carpet cleaners can help.

As regards don't take the splinter out of your neighbours eye until you have taken the log out of your own, if I stick to this I'll probably never write another word on this forum again.

A couple of days ago I started looking at the favourable changes that have taken place in me since I began expressing my experiences thoughts and ideas here. What is perceived as one persons "attack" can be anothers truth. Throughout I have as much as I am able spoken my truth even though to others (possibly the BK's or members of BK.info) it may have sometimes seemed like an attack. I appreciate that if one has a foot in two boats and they move in different directions there is the possiblility getting wet and though I doubt my "flying carpet's" ability at this time to prevent such an occurence I just cannot help it!

Fortunately we are all "work in progress" the incredibly flexible mould in which we live can take different shapes at different times. We can all help people in different ways..why even you have your very compassionate side which I have often seen!

Tread lightly!
Kindest regards,

John

John Morgan,

That was by far the most sincere and heart felt post from you. You can clean my carpet any time, although at present it looks more like a waist long, curly Rastafarian carpet. I must warn you it takes about two hours to do a proper job ...

Magic Carpet.GIF (15.26 KiB) Viewed 20486 times

Joking aside, there is the tale of the carpet flying man. There was word about that a man possessed the power to fly on his carpet, so a man curiously went to search for this man. He soon found him. He gingerly asked if he could ride on his carpet. "Oh, first you must possess the power to believe anything is possible", asked the magic carpet man. Wanting a ride so badly the man told him he did possess the power to believe.

Soon they sat on his magic carpet and the magic carpet man began to describe scenery beyond belief, and in an hour's time the magic carpet man told his rider they had indeed landed. The curious man thanked him and said "Yes, indeed the power of belief can take you many places".

I, too, am a work in progress and there in lies the beauty of imperfection ... the variety is endless.

I have never had a BK clean my carpet, though I used to clean carpets at Tennyson Road.

I renounced my carpet out and now I don't use them. I prefer to take my dirty shoes off when I walk inside. Practically and, I hope, metaphorically. Its always a little interesting to have a look under them though and see what folks are hiding there.

As regards trees, I think we are in the business of cutting out the deadwood and pulling out trees rather than removing splinters. Personally, I don't believe that even the Brahma-kumaris have as much faith in themselves as you do in them. I think that by excluding you, they unconsciously found the perfect hook to hold you in their thrall.

To continue on asking in my heretical blasphemy, it does make me wonder what responsibility the Brahma-kumaris have to those whose heads they spin but yet whose bodies they lock out of their centers. They would say, "none, it is your karma". Personally, I don't believe in their simplistic and convenient take on karma philosophy.

IF all that they and their god had run unfailingly true, then I would have no grounds to question. But, not only has it consistently not run unfailingly true but they have gone on to cover it up with heavy and expensive carpeting that is starting to wear out noticeably, and now smell. So it is just more Maya. Perhaps a royal form. A "new improved" formula. But Maya all the same.

How can we and they not take their god to task over all this?

it does make me wonder what responsibility the Brahma-Kumaris have to those whose heads they spin but yet whose bodies they lock out of their centers.

I consider that this is probably aimed at me. An interesting question here is, "How does one cope if one loves knowledge and its effect but is banned from BK centres and receipt of Murlis by the well meaning Maureen Goodman?"

Answer - It's become very easy. First, I have the advantage of many very good experiences to relate to. Second, I don't read Murlis, though I recall something about knowledge every day. Third, self mastery, not the class one goes to is the aim. Fourth, I have had better experiences since leaving the BKs - and deeper change! Fifth, people that I have helped and introduced to the BKs were lost by them, so I can do stuff that the BKs cannot. Sixth, I am grateful to the people who gave me probably the greatest pain in my life for helping me as they did. Seventh, if the BKs had given me Murli's, as I requested, I would never have come to this dump full of strange people who oddly I find very welcoming, friendly, funny, stimulating, honest, dishonest, inspiring, with and without agendas and continually surprising in wonderful ways and whose company has benefited me greatly, oh! and very annoying, nearly forgot that! Eighth, even if the help I give others is not yet (hope and faith!) as good as that that the BKs could do I am there and I care, what's more I often help where the BKs would turn and run. Ninth, I now also study another meditation as guided in a vision either from Baba or my subconscious, or a siddha or something, and will shortly qualify as a teacher. (Probably manmat, ugh!) Please don't question me on the vision bit as it is private and for me alone. Tenth, Brahma Kumaris eat your heart out, you don't care about me, but I care about you. Eleventh, the possibility that Maureen may be very accurate has not escaped my consideration. Twelfth, the possibility that ex-| is accurate has not escaped my consideration, certainly the founder(s) of this site have a lot of good karma going their way except for who does not believe in karma - so as not to offend him.

So, if you ask the BKs a question and get a very good reply, ask for another reply to the same question. This will reveal the truth that some questions have many answers, this method will certainly test the patience of your teacher and create a chance for deep inculcation. Persist with this yukti and you too can be banned!

Whew ... I hope your new found practise involves taking deep breaths now and again ...

Good answer but, no, it was not entirely aimed at you. I was thinking about the PBKs, other folks the BKWSU think have mental problems but could well be having spiritual breakthrough (something medical science is actually waking up to now), and it related to a question someone asked me recently about, "what did the BKWSU owe ex-BKs?"

My answer to that was nothing but to their friends and family of BK and ex-BK a lot. Whereas, beyond a certain age or self-awareness, any individual has to ultimately take responsibility for their actions and their consequences, we are not alone. We are not disconnected from others, we have other relationships to honour ... and being let off by the Pied Pipers of Madhuban hurts and damages others who neither wished nor deserved it. It tears away at the social fabric that binds us.

It make me think it would be interesting to study the difference between the individual joining the BKWSU in the West and those in India and Indian communities. As a roadmap sketch, I wonder if the BKWSU actually attracts the self-centred, irresponsible, vulnerable, loners etc rather than religious family as a whole. What we were told was that we were just born-again BKs or "one birth out of India" and this is why we did not fit in the West and did fit in with their system. I have no answers on this as yet.

But as to questions being blasphemy ... they are certain a more Western way and, I would propose, Westerners as a whole are differently structured by our education system. They are also challenging to those in positions of authority who may lack intellectual rigor.

Quite an interesting thread ...

I might sound like an old parrot ... but in my short experience within the BK family ... starting from a small center where i talked about the unity with the big center to speaking out my mind with a dead Brother's will issue ... its all clear that any question, or opposition, to the way they think is one primary reason to be BANNED ...

I have a question to all who had questions and to quote DJ ... do you really think the Seniors etc really know the answers ...
Secondly, whatever answer they give, are we convinced with their answers ... e.g. "How does Baba give me power?"

A quick summary.

If you wanna survive in the BK world ask questions and try getting answers yourselves and these typically are questions which will rattle the top bosses ... Gyan questions they don't know the answers themselves, so post it in here and see if we can get some response.

If you are not happy with the Sisters, keep changing centers and stay away from the Sisters ... just get your Murli and run away.

Yogi

..what responsibility the Brahma-Kumaris have to those whose heads they spin but yet whose bodies they lock out of their centers.

I don't think is aimed at anyone in particular, but I 'd like to make it mine and ask myself to what extention is my head still spinning and in which direction. I 'd better check, since it's my head and nobody and nothing should get free accomodation in it without my permission!. We cannot stop any spinning abruptly, not in a washing mashine, neither in our mind, it has to slow down gradually, after switching off.
This seems to relate also to the posts on "identity" as BK and post BK and mental conditioning.