BK Controversies

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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yogi108

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BK Controversies

Post19 Sep 2008

Members of the forum,

I have been reading various posts by members and this morning I was thinking ...

    1. Are we missing something ?
If the Yagya believed that it was Brahma Baba who was god in the early days ... and Mama thought that Shiva was stupid etc ... would it not make sense to believe that it was the evolution of the Yagya? Let us look at all major organizations like Oracle, Microsoft, even Google ... I am sure in the early days what they thought as a product is not what they dish out today ...

I am not just pointing out corporations, I am sure that every spiritual organization has improvised ... You can either call it improvisation, or going with the changing times, or say that its a major cover-up.

    2. I am not at all for; family separations, shady wills & property deals, shady handling of revenue etc
All this need to come out in the open and clear the mess ... their teacher hierarchy should change and be handled by professionals.

    3. I am not supporting the re-write of the Murli's ... but how many revisions have we had of the holy scriptures of the other religions?
My reason for this post again is not to justify the activities of the BKs but ask ourselves. If we focus on the core issues instead of unearthing abnormalities in Yagya history ... and look at issues like; 'Duty of Care', professional handling of the Yagya, more tranparency of handling of wills and properties ... we might get more visibility from this endeavour.

Just my thoughts ... because, frankly, I don't really care what Mama and Baba thought in the early days of the Yagya, cause we constantly change the value prop as and when there is more to learn from the people of the organization ...

Yogi
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Mr Green

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Re: BK Controversies

Post19 Sep 2008

Nice post, interesting.
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john

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Re: BK Controversies

Post19 Sep 2008

But where does the lying stop and the truth begin?

    Would you make a large financial deal or investment with someone or company who had lied about their past and past achievements?
    Also, what is the intent of the falsification of history of Yagya? Innocent or sinister?
I think their are two things the BKSWU did not reckon on;

    1. No Destruction.
    2. The Internet.
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bansy

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Re: BK Controversies

Post19 Sep 2008

There are 5 years worth of Sakar Murlis. BKs - Why do these need to be repeated for the umpteenth time ?

Surely by now a complete book of Sakar Murlis could have been produced after so many years since 1969 ?

    Edition 1 1969-73
    Edition 2 1974-78
    Edition 3 1979-83 etc
Unless each Edition is different from the previous ?

PBKs - if there are 5 years of Murlis, couldn't ShivBaba (Veerendra Dev Dixit) also clarify all these Murlis within the space of 5 years or so (extra for Avyakt Murlis), by clarifying a Sakar Murli a day ? How long are the current clarifications going to continue ?
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ex-l

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Re: BK Controversies

Post21 Sep 2008

Yes, and if they say non-BKs wont understand them, then all they have to do is publish a good glossary to go with them as other religions do. No more excuses.
yogi108 wrote:... call it improvisation, or going with the changing times, or say that its a major cover-up ... If we focus on the core issues instead of unearthing abnormalities in Yagya history ... and look at issues like; 'Duty of Care', professional handling of the Yagya, more tranparency of handling of wills and properties ... we might get more visibility from this endeavour.

I am thinking about this and ask you to stand back a bit, to look at the forest rather than the individual trees.

To an extent you are correct. The material facts of what Lekhraj Kirpalani, Om Radhe and the old guard of the BKWSU thought in the old days is not that important ... (although, having said that, we will not know how important it is until we have the complete picture). What is important, I feel, is to evidence in hard facts the manner in which the BKWSU leadership has acted for decades and to bring to the surface all the anomalies and contradictions to be resolved. Hard, deep, behavioral sanskars and, looking at the response to the discovery, document and challenge to their self-appointed authority, their current state of consciousness.

As John writes,

    Would you do business with someone that finds it difficult to be honest, reacts aggressively or with deep denial on exposure ... ?
    Do we not have the right to expect better from the self-appointed 8 or 108 top souls in the world, God's representatives ... ?
    Was the package we were sold as The Knowledge™ not meant to be above all those vagaries? (This is where your comparison to "fag end of the Kalpa" Shudra organizations like Google or Oracle fails ... ).
And where the 'value property' might always change, is it not good practice to document those changes so that others can learn from it? For me, as a major proponent in documenting the historical revision, it is not so much about the huge changes but the modus operandi of those making them, because as you saw, they will keep making them. And, in my opinion, they will do so to maintain their position, and as long as their status remains safe.

To put it bluntly, if the BKWSU was a proper educational institution ... heads would have to roll and I think it is about time they did so. Certain BKs have to go back to being ordinary students sitting in class. I always wondered why the leadership did not have the practise of relinquishing their position on the guddhi and handing over the reins to others, at least on a temporary basis just to prove it was their god running the show.

    So, to go back to your question. OK, if we accept that the credibility of the leadership is damaged, how do we go about doing what you suggest?
    Have you seen or got a copy of the latest internal reform report? Will your center-in-charge provide you (or us) with a copy so that we can discuss it?
One thing I find hysterical is that, very largely, it was the people here that have brought about, having them consider some kind of development or reform (even if just to "be seen" to do so). And yet what do they do ... shut us out of the discussion and ignore our correspondence.

I have the feeling that the well meaning and perfectly professional BK parishioners, having their committee meetings, are having to tiptoe around in a royal fashion and speak with gilded tongues, afraid of their rulers.

What would be my immediate suggestions? Here are a few to start with;

    Janki is made to retire and goes into therapy, she stays in Madhuban and is made to write an honest and accurate history,
    the middle management is sent out to work in the real world to bring in their, and the organization's own income and they stop begging off others. The running of the organizations is handed over to the reigns of a younger generation, that they stop calling themselves a university and adherents homes "centers" (its like Christianity claiming every Christian's house is a church).
    All sales of products become not-for-profit, that they go back to their roots and teach their religion without all the shifty disguises.
    They start focusing on genuine and INCOGNITO practical social charitable services and STOP sucking up to power and VIPS,
    apologies and EARNED, not begged, compensation is paid to victims.
    A public statement (disclosure) on their websites and documents is made regarding failed predictions of Destruction etc.
    A proper externally run ombudsman service, documented on their website, public publication of their procedural manual, complaints handling process, various trust deeds and constitutions etc.
    The complete and original collection of Murlis and other messages are made public.
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yogi108

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Re: BK Controversies

Post22 Sep 2008

As Usual excellent post by ex-l ...

I like the comment, "look at the forest rather than individual trees ..."

Let me clarify, I am not one of the BKs to beleive in the senior BKs sugar coated sweet-nothings ...

But being a part of the system, I have also not been able to do anything about the various things that have been going on in the Yagya ... So I could be termed as the one who has turned a blind eye and keep quiet about what happens ... But is there any use of screaming at someone who is determined to do what they have sought out to do ...?

I would draw a comparison here to the terrorism which goes on and the brainwashing behind those who could Ram planes into a building and the spiritual brainwashing that happens ... except the spiritual brainwashing happens so subtly that you don't get visibility for quite a while.

I don't have any solutions to this, except that I make it a point to interact with the students of the BKs and give them a fair bit of, say, advice whether it is about their career, home-life, lifestyle changes etc ...

Now, even that has to be done carefully else you are branded as one of those who disrupts, "Baba's work". I continue to do it irrespective.

ex-l has made me ponder quite a while as to how to clean the mess that has been created ... I will come back with something worthwhile ...

Yogi
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ex-l

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Re: BK Controversies

Post22 Sep 2008

I am always a bit worried that I am going too far for most people when I let fly, to be honest ... you can leave the "screaming" to me. Although I am more the quiet persistent type.
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paulkershaw

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Re: BK Controversies

Post23 Sep 2008

Hey! I am the screamer on this forum ... :|.
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yogi108

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

To all the Screamers in the forum,

Why not scream at the students who fall prey to the unique strategies of the senior Sisters

    1. Students who fall prey to advice from SS to aleinate from their family (parents, Brothers & Sisters, Wife etc)
    2. Students who write their wills to the BKs
    3. Students who sacrifice their career to do God's work
    4. Students who do not understand the difference between getting inspired and fooled
    5. Students who think that getting toli and going on stage or being close to the family is yet another Maya from Murli's perspective
    6. Students who do not understand the difference between using the Knowlede and getting used by the Yagya
I cannot think of many more but probably other forum members can add to this list.

I would equally blame the students for the current state of affairs in the BK world. It is them who actually let this go on rather than stem the flow of the abnormalities.

Can anyone join a team of folks out here to formulate a handbook to existing BKs to highlight something like what I have highlighted?

If you cannot make the organization listen to you, then one another way of acheiving the same end result is to enlighten the students who are a major source for sustaining the organization.

A sort of extensive Student outreach so as to speak.

Will appreciate some thoughts on these lines

Yogi
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Mr Green

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

The more entrenched a student is, the more obdient they are, and dismissive of any criticism ... they think still that it is God guiding the whole thing.

Only those who have been there a long time or those wobbling can be reached, and that is still worth doing, but how to reach them?

They've been told not to come on this site.
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yogi108

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

I am actually interested in the more obedient since they are the ones who need to be educated ... also the wannabes. They can keep the faith that it is god who is behind this ... In fact, I am also of the believers that there is someone/something that comes out with this awesome experience and The Knowledge is great ... but not so convinced about the people who are running the show.

So, a well-documented approach document of, say, two pages in line with what is being said in the Murli versus what is being practiced ... I remember Brian saying to a class in Madhuban ... Even if Dadi is telling you or Baba is telling you to do something ... follow your truth rather than someone else's. He got into trouble for saying this but then found an admirer like me who then knew how to strike a balance.

Believe me, there are many like me in the Yagya who now know what to give, when to give, how much service to do and what kind of service to do ... The SS do not like it but then Who cares about them anyway. I am not for one second suggesting that we become like PBKs (No offence to them by asking the BKs to move into another group) but just giving them something that they can think about. This is a long term approach to gather momentum and awareness into the BK world ...

Something like an organised, say, even Webinars which can be done free of costs ... Say someone like senior XBKs sharing some of their experiences and what they would ideally like the organization to be ...

"Awareness Campaign" is how I would position it.
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paulkershaw

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

The problem often being is that the students, whilst thinking they are taking full responsibility for themselves and their spiritual life, have been fooled and therefore have handed over their responsibility for their own life to something they think is bigger and better than them.
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ex-l

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

I would agree with you Paul. In my opinion, it is clearly and distinctly encouraged, especially at an early state, to doubt one's own intuitions (which may well be entirely correct) and hand over all responsibility to the Seniors during the intoxication phase. This may never be regained and, generally, might not be without some confrontation with the leadership. At that point, matters might become very personal as the leadership act to defend their personal positions, e.g. the cuckoos pushing the real chicks out of the family nest.

OK. I think this is a great idea. It is the second time it has been suggested, so let's do some work on it instead of chatting. Once finished, we can make a PDF of it to send and print out.

I made a page in the Encyclopedia that anyone can edit after logging in; Proposed BKWSU "student handbook". Or else you can add suggestions here.

I have my reservation about the use of the term "student" because it reinforces a fallacy that the religion is a University. Followers are followers. But I am willing to go along with it. Perhaps that can be mentioned?

Folks like the Brian Bacons and Mike Georges are probably good ones to ask to contribute.
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Mr Green

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

yogi108 wrote:This is a long term approach to gather momentum and awareness into the BK world ... Something like an organised say even Webinars which can be done free of costs ... Say someone like senior ex-BK's sharing some of their experiences and what they would ideally like the organization to be ... Awareness Campaign is how I would position it

I like what you suggest, it is very pleasing to see a BK suggest that ex-bks have something of value to share, which obviously we have, having seen and experienced things most BKs don't get to see.

And ex-l, yes, I think we should drop the word student as it is demeaning. It suggests these people are lower than their teachers which they are not. It gives power to the Seniors which they do not deserve.
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paulkershaw

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Re: BK Controversies

Post25 Sep 2008

Proposed BKWSU "student handbook".

This seems to be a fairly common problem around the world. For example, in South Africa, those who are in college or school do not like to be called 'student'. So now the political buzzword is 'learner' ... for the Handbook being compiled here, I'd suggest the title "follower' instead of student.

"BKWSU Follower's Handbook" ? - or even "BKWSU's Members Handbook" (Ohhh no - I can see that may cause a small problem or two) ... hmmm, not sure 'bout this - but perhaps others can come up with something that will not make any prospective student falter but will also highlight the difference between a student, learner or follower ... I'd like to see this as eventually acceptable to both ex-Bks and the BKWSU.

I suppose our ANC governments continued use of the term 'cadre' or 'comrade' wouldn't work well in this case either eh? Can you just imagine a book written by "Comrade Sister Shakti-bhen?" :shock: ... or perhaps we can do without the word 'student' and just call it "BKWSU Handbook" ? This may be less invasive and leave things more open-ended. for what may be.
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