Death of BK Manohar Indra

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
  • Message
  • Author
User avatar

paulkershaw

ex-BK

  • Posts: 863
  • Joined: 11 Dec 2006
  • Location: South Africa

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post21 Nov 2008

Burning Issues indeed. ;)

IME, many ascended master teachings today detail that us lowly humans cannot ascend into higher realm at this time-frame due to the energy or vibration which is needed in our dense earth plane, i.e if the 'lightworkers' all left, then the density of the vibration on the planet would spin it out of orbit (or sumat like that.) Now really, reading betwixt the lines, if a BK goes up to 'heaven' then they cannot really be holding much 'light' here on earth can they? Its like the earth wants rid of certain people if I take all this into consideration.

So, reading the "Death Notice", it really looks like the white clad BKs have truly found a way to ascend into The Big Light and sit on what must be a very crowded lap by now. Wonder if there's as much in-fighting and joss-stickling for space on BB's lap and why exactly do they want to sit on his lap?

Last time I sat on Santa's lap I got a big surprise ... (but there again - so too did he).
User avatar

arjun

PBK

  • Posts: 3588
  • Joined: 01 May 2006
  • Location: India

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post21 Nov 2008

john morgan wrote:Is anyone aware of a Murli dealing with the disposal of and darshan from old boots?

I have not come across any Murli point that prescribes the method of cremation, but keeping in view Baba's oft repeated Shrimat of saving every penny of the Yagya from being wasted, I feel that cremation at electric crematorium is the best and cheapest method in India provided such crematoriums are available in the town/city of residence.

The city where I live has many such electric crematoriums. But most Hindus do not use this cost-effective method of cremation for fear of breaking the tradition.

I remember that when a PBK mother died in our city her son took the body straight from the hospital to the electric crematorium where it cost him very less when compared to the traditional Hindu way of cremation.
yogi108 wrote:Rituals; when you attend a funeral the Indians take a bath and remove the clothes worn for the funeral as a practice.

I think most BKs/PBKs still follow this custom not just after attending the cremation of their Hindu friends or relatives but also after attending the cremation of BKs/PBKs.

On Godly Service,
Arjun
User avatar

Mr Green

ex-BK

  • Posts: 1876
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post21 Nov 2008

The ritual of cloth changing after the burning is also included the BK addage that you cannot enter the bhandara before washing and changing clothes.

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post21 Nov 2008

remove the clothes worn

This is a BK forum, but the removal of clothes is done is many other cultures. In some, the clothes are removed at the funeral site (people huddle behind trees and towels) and then are burnt. If the crematorim is near the place of funeral, these clothes as well as other possessions are burnt with the body.

There is always one job that never goes away even in times of recessions ... a funeral director (in the West) aka Brahmin. But it is hard to justify if the business should make any profits ... on the death of people !!
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10410
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post22 Nov 2008

yogi108 wrote:Rituals; when you attend a funeral the Indians take a bath and remove the clothes worn for the funeral as a practice.

Some, if not many, of these rituals have good commonsense behind them. It makes sense washing and changing clothes is you are watching an open cremation on a ghat alongside many others. Who'd want to go anywhere smelling and covered in ash of dead granny? Is is said that nearly 50-60 million trees, covering 1,500-2,000 sq. km of forest land, are cut every year to burn the dead in India. Electrical cremations are used mainly by the modern, progressive Indians who don't believe in rituals and the poor, destitute who cant afford the priest and full ritual although in Mumbia.

I know they expected Destruction to come and save them but should the BKWSU not be showing a responsible, modern example rather than reinforcing and making a profitable theatre out of the ancient and ritualistic?

Profitable financially in increased donations ... profitable amongst VIPs and the media ... profitable in reinforcing the power and authority of a few to be seen and act at such events. And, of course, divisive ... dividing those who have money, and who control the donated money in order to fly themselves back to Abu, from those who don't; all adding up and reinforcing the BK caste system bases upon money and power rather than true worth or spirituality.


In this case, funnily enough, I would agree with Arjun and the Shrimat of the Murlis.

Solar crematoriums have been developed by Wolfgang Sheffler, a Swiss national and Ronnie Sabbawala of Rashron Energy in India where the body is burned exclusively using solar energy. Or you can have ‘Promession’, invented in 1999 by a Swede where the body is dipped in liquid nitrogen at -196 degrees Centigrade until it becomes brittle then placed on a vibrating mat, so that it disintegrates into powder - from dust to dust. There is also an NPO, Mokshda, which has an environmentally friendly cremation system that needs just 100 kg of wood and burns the body in less than half the time.

With a population of 1.1 bn in India, cremations are a problem to the living and the environment and are, as Arjun says, more about sentimentalism and fear. In some places, where you do not get half burn bodies floating down the river or turning up on river banks because the family cannot afford the wood, ash and bones lie piled on riverbanks at cremation ghats. When the rivers are dry, ashes settle on the riverbed because the river does not have enough water to wash them away. When it is dry and dusty, ash gets the air and people breath it in.

There are other rituals which appear far fetched, e.g. a fire is lit in the mouth of the deceased (mukhagni) or the head is struck open with a stick to release the soul (kapal kriya) which is meant to allow the journey of soul after death. (I suspect they are just ancient ones to make sure the person is really dead!). The Tibetan and Parsee sky burials (left to the vultures - an endangered species in themselves - on towers or rock piles) are surely the most environmental of all. I also visited one village in Asia whose ritual was simply to take the bodies out of the village and leave them in the jungle to allow 'the jungle' to reclaim them naturally. Death is a problem, but perhaps we need to be a little less sentimental and exploitative about the whole issue?
User avatar

arjun

PBK

  • Posts: 3588
  • Joined: 01 May 2006
  • Location: India

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post22 Nov 2008

john morgan wrote:Is anyone aware of a Murli dealing with the disposal of and darshan from old boots?

Luckily, I came across this Murli point which is relevant to the subject. While asking BKs/PBKs not to weep when their lokik relatives die, ShivBaba spoke thus through Brahma Baba:

"यहाँ तो रोने की दरकार नहीं। बाबा ने कहा है अम्मा मरे तो भी हलुआ खाना, कौन से हलुआ? यह ज्ञान का। अब तो सब मरे पड़े हैं। किसका चिन्तन करें, किसका करें – इतने सब मरेंगे। कोई क्रियाक्रम करने वाला भी नहीं रहेगा। जापान में बम से इतने मरे फिर किसने क्रियाक्रम किया। क्रियाक्रम करने वाले भी मर जायेंगे। यह तो भक्तिमार्ग की रसमरिवाज़ है। सतयुग में ऐसी बातें होती नहीं।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २४.०५.०८, पृ. २)

“Here there is no need to cry. Baba has said – Eat halua (a sweetmeat) even if your mother dies; which halua? This (halua) of knowledge. Now everyone is dead. Whom should we think about, whose (last rites) should we perform – so many would die. There will be nobody to perform even the last rites. So many died because of the bomb in Japan; then who performed the last rites? Even those who perform the last rites will die. This is a ritual and tradition of the path of worship. Such things are not prevalent in the Golden Age.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.05.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10410
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post24 Nov 2008

They do love their peace marches and parades, don't they ... I suppose air flight and train rides are the only breaks senior Sisters get. It seems a bit unnecessary, does not it?

They have already started making pilgrimage places ... wasn't that a thing of Bhakti and of no benefit according to the Murli?
Fw: Latest from Sister Jayanti‏

Loving greetings from Madhuban!

I happened to be in Delhi when we heard news of Dadi Manohar and so I was able to be here to bid farewell to Dadi on 19th morning. I've been in Madhuban just 12 hours and return to Delhi tonight by train.

It was an extraordinary sight with hundreds of BKs accompanying the Chariot around the four pilgrimage places in Pandav Bhawan all the way to the cremation ground.

Dadi's Chariot was taken with care on a decorated truck; as we walked we were filled with pride for having known such a sparkling divine personality who continues to guide us on our spiritual journey ...

john morgan

ex-BK

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2007

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post24 Nov 2008

I think I did not know BK Manohar Indra. Whilst I am sure that she would have agreed about the uselessness of a dead body I feel certain that she knew about the usefulness of a soul. Further she was in the Yagya for many years and was absolutely certain that God was and is teaching in the Yagya, the Murlis originating from him. In theory I can agree with her.

But why oh why did Bap Dada not take advantage of the opportunity of explaining my difficulties to me when I met him face to face?

Recently I had a very nicely worded invite to Cambridge Inner Space which I did not take up. The reason? When I desperately needed spiritual guidance it did not come from the Yagya. they would say things like "we cannot help you for a month" or "did you have a vision?" or ban me. I have been told by an unrequested well wisher that the person involved is not authorised to ban anyone. If such is true it would mean little to me to be "right" though a small note saying "oops I slipped up" would make my view of the cagey BK a little less so. Of course it may be that even though they were not authorised "to ban" they were inspired in some extremely accurate way.

On occassion the phrase "detached and loving" seems to mean "OK so your screwed up even though you have followed the teaching as best you could, we're just fine thank you very much" Now you may think I am festering about this, no, this plain truth comes from examining my experience and resolving outstanding issues, much like the temporary files on a computer which are no longer used but eat up memory until they are cleaned out.

Recently a student of the BK emailed me asking for guidance, or rather demanded it. After a few exchanges of emails I directed them to the place where they took knowledge. Their last email said that they now had a good teacher that they could "disturb" instead of me. I hope that the word chosen was an inaccurate
translation on the part of the sender as in directing them where I did was not an effort to get rid of them or pass on any disturbance to someone else, I was doing the best I could for them. The BK may need to pay a little more attention to communicating with their students.

That BK Manohar Indra read the Murli to a congregation of angels even once says a lot about her to me. I trust that her experience was far better than mine and hope that every time she seemed to be dozing she was in fact deep in Murli points.
User avatar

alladin

no label

  • Posts: 917
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2007

clean mind and clothes

Post24 Nov 2008

Mr Green wrote:The ritual of cloth changing after the burning is also included the BK addage that you cannot enter the bhandara before washing and changing clothes.

I think that some BK and Hindu ( and other religions') disciplines, have practical hygienic reasons to exist , as well as more subtle ones, that we are free to believe in or be skeptical about. Example: not eating stale food.

Could be gone bad and poison you, or could be lacking energy , or you lack the energy to cook fresh food every day or you do poor planning and cook more than you can eat and generate leftovers!! Any of this behaviour is not very holy or yogi!
Anyway, I was also taught that we should shower and wear clean clothes as soon as we come home from work and errands. Again, especially in India and in hot countries, there are more obvious reasons such as the body being covered in sweat and pollution. One feels more comfortable by washing quickly after getting into the house and taking a little break.

But I also believe that it is good to change energy, to unwind and relax so that our hearth and food do not get contaminated and we can recharge our batteries in our place, our temple and lair! More and more, however, such refined practise, is being abandoned by pragmatic, gross conscious BKs.

Vestals have become an endangered species.

They are rushing around, time is money, they have to impress Seniors and jump into the kitchen without any ritual, hoover and make noise and talk loud whilst someone else is cooking. They also teach courses when they have just come out of work, in lokik, even very feminine clothes and high heel shoes, and pour their stressful vibes and business-like manners on unlucky students. What do they teach, and pass on, I don't know!!

If such souls had given me the Raja Yoga course, I wouldn't have stayed!

I enjoyed Jayanti's greetings. With practise, and there are many more oldies who are ready to bite the dust, a new skill is being developed: that of making mortuary announcements, an art in itself! ;)
User avatar

Mr Green

ex-BK

  • Posts: 1876
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post24 Nov 2008

First to John Morgan;

You don't seem messed up to me. In fact, you seem lucid and intelligent. Dadi Manohar was one of the nice Dadi's, she was very unofficial and approachable, and simple living with simple ideals. And she had a sense of humour ... she would try and get a laugh in Gyan Sarovar rather than the power trip some Dadi's enjoyed involving telling everyone off to stimulate their guilt complexes.

I did not want to sound cynical about Manohar Dadi as she was known, she was a fine woman, but also I do not want to pedalstool her. I liked her and found her humble and good fun.

Secondly, to Alladin;

The reason I say this is, I was present at Dadi Chandramani's funeral. It was a very hot day. We left after breakfast to walk in a large procession to the cremation ground in Abu village. We went via Nakki lake, (a good place for flirting with and being flirted at by Sisters) into the village.

It was a long way and it was well hot! ... but the ceremony was memorable and spectacular I must say. In those days it was all a bit more humble I think. The cremation ground was stunning, like a natural rock amphitheatre, with a stream running through it's core. I chose to stand quite high up and a fair distance away from the proceedings as I did not really know her very well. She'd never really been there at the same times I had to Madubhan before, but I had heard good things about her. I could see everything from where I was standing. I must say it was a moving occasion, with a very powerful vibe, man.

Anyway, when I got back to the Madubhan, I was almost dying as I had had no water and had been out in the midday sun doing Yoga for hours, I went in up the steps to the dining hall to go the bit where the water trough/machines were, and some old mataji told me I couldn't come in without going and changing my clothes and having a bucket bath ... I was truly near to death, so I creep round the other side and went in there without washing or changing my clothes and managed to initiate the process of rehydration.

Man, that Shrimat or Maryadas thing can be tough, 'mrgreen'

(I want to be able to post the word Y o g rather than Yoga but the spell checker won't let me).

john morgan

ex-BK

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2007

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post24 Nov 2008

Hello Mr Green,

It sounds as if the loss of Dadi Manohar was great, thanks for the first hand information.

At various times you have expressed an interest in the Divine Constitution part of the Real Gita. I am sure you are aware that it has been uploaded to the library, but just in case look at "rest of real Gita."

Regards,

John
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10410
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post26 Nov 2008

In my time, there was only one 'death in the family', some sincere young man killed himself in a car crash ... he probably fell asleep at the wheel due to the over-tiredness typical of BKs. He hit some tunnel or bridge wall. It was milked rotten for the sakes of service by the Seniors.

Actually, there were two deaths. Didi Manohar, one of the last of the Super-Dadis, died but at that time "mere mortals like we" were not allowed to leave the service front for a moment to attend the funeral without taking Shrimat and permission from the senior Sisters to attended.

john morgan

ex-BK

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2007

Re: Death of BK Manohar Indra

Post26 Nov 2008

DJ once said to me, "I am in charge, I decide what happens here" and that's the way it is. I recall a lovely Sister named Joy from the Tennyson Road days who would somewhat fatalistically say "Its better to be a servant in the Golden Age than a king in the Silver Age." The prominent players at that time are still the prominent players today.

Those players were very good at The Knowledge and still are. They came stating that they speak on behalf of god, it is of course a matter of individual choice whether to accept that or not. There are many worse lives and of course there is the prize "The Inheritance." Whether one is with the BK's or not attention to each thought attitude and action is to my mind a good thing. Whilst I still love and respect the BK despite a very long separation there still remains the fact that when I was very much under their influence they did not "divine" a workable paradigm for me.

Of course all that is long dead as is my BK life. Ultimately we all have to "divine" our own solutions. Probably the one thing that has helped me more than anything else is the point "Take your time and make everything clear." I am clear that God has no complaints in his mind. Whilst many may consider this a puny beginning, ultimately I am hopeful that it will lead to something much better. So DJ may be in charge of lots but she is not in charge of me, this is my territory thank you very much.
Previous

Return to Commonroom