A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum

Originally Forums were meeting places for open discussion. A short while ago this forum was split into different sections to cater for persons with particular viewpoints. We were told that this was for administration purposes, there being too much work involved in keeping the Forum tidy.

But what is the effect of this split? No longer is this forum a meeting place for open discussion. It is now a place for people to further their own particular agenda. So we now have little sections with Chinese Walls in between. You can go to one forum and join that agenda and if you change your agenda you can visit another and post there. It is likely that most will agree with you – if that is what you want. Seems sad to me.

I wondered about the wisdom of the split when it occurred. Whilst I would have been happy to contribute my mite financially in order to maintain the Forum as it was the split was never debated – it was merely decided by “Admin.”

Recently I was asked by “Admin” to post on a pro-bk forum as my posts were promoting a BK point of view.

The initial Email is here

Sent: 12 Feb 2009, 02:21
From: Admin
To: john morgan
With regards to your recent posts such as; Subject: Spirit Attachment.

Since the separation of the BK and PBK forums to the independently run http://BK-PBK.info, http://www.brahmakumaris.info is no longer promoting a BK or PBK point of view.

By splitting, and helping establish the new forums, we feel that we have gone further than we needed to provide a forum for those still interested in doing so. From now on, we wish to focus instead on helping those that wish to leave the BKWSU, friends and family of BKs who are suffering and documenting the development of the movement.

You may find that http://BK-PBK.info meets your needs better if you wish to support and perpetuate your interest in the BKWSU's philosophy and continue to explore or promote the religion.

Thank you.

It is now most clear that BK.info has an agenda and is not an open Forum. Whilst there are things that I consider inaccurate about the BK their essential message is about the wonderful potential of each person on this planet. I am sad that the “loose consensus” called “Admin” cannot see the “good” as well as they see the “bad” and withdraw. One last point. I am not exploring the religion, I am exploring myself.

Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye.

my 2c -

Different forums for different persuasions seems eminently pragmatic. This site provides information (anti-disinformation) not available elsewhere for individuals who may really need it. But it caters to everyone else as well.

This anti-disinformation is of course anathema for most BKs. Even in BK terms it is advised to avoid making someone "weak" in their own religion, e.g. by discussing heretical matters. Best to have an alternative sandpit and avoid holy wars.

Sometimes people quote big chunks of Murli in the middle of these "ex-BK" forum discussions. Sometimes it seems really awkward and out of place.

Why does everyone get the hump? Come on john morgan, don't go .

By splitting, and helping establish the new forums, we feel that we have gone further than we needed to provide a forum for those still interested in doing so. From now on, we wish to focus instead on helping those that wish to leave the BKWSU, friends and family of BKs who are suffering and documenting the development of the movement.

Lest we forget, without The Knowledge of fringe BKs and PBKs a lot of what is being documented may not have come to light.

Where there's a will there's a way.

Do the great contributors to this forum past and present have the will?

Are you being sidestepped?

Admin and site owners can do as they will, but that doesn't mean roll over and just take it.

Agenda is now revealed, not 'BK.info', but 'anti-BK.info'. Sad day.

It is now most clear that BK.info has an agenda and is not an open Forum.

This could be a point.

Why don't folks have a look at 'Is Brahmakumaris.info an impartial website?'

So, what is your relationship with BKs and the BKWSU, bansy? What is your faith or position in all this? What do you want this forum to be? (... and that was an unsuprising addition to this conversation if ever there was one).

It is now most clear that BK.info has an agenda and is not an open Forum ... I am sad that the “loose consensus” called “Admin” cannot see the “good” as well as they see the “bad” and withdraw.

I would like to say a few things on a purely personal level.

a) People should leave here at some point, unless you want to stay on to "serve".

You should come, get your fill, strengthen yourself and go ... move on. Its part of moving on from the BKWSU way of life and a good thing. So, although it might be emotional, no one should feel bound to stay out of habit or social attachments.

b) Posting private messages, any private message, is always pretty uncool.

It breaks any sense of security other individual might have about writing confidentially to each other. In this case, as it was an Admin message and about policy, I don't suppose it is such a bad thing as we should discuss that ... but it is almost willfully damaging of the very weak 'bounds of confidence' that hold together members.

c) If you want to work out personal stuff, and express entirely personal points of view you do not want challenged; use the blog facility rather than the forum.

---

If I was to address my comments to you personally, John, I would be asking where you really were at in life. The BKWSU will have you back (ont heir terms), you don't want to. Who are you and where do you want to go.

There are times where I feel as if you are almost schizophrenically still BK.

One moment you are ex-, the next you are possessed by the spirit of the BKWSU and giving us Murli again. I don't know if you realise this or what is going on. What do you beleive and where do you want to go? The two forums give you two place to put those parts ... or else you could join some of the entirely neutral social networking sites the BKWSU are joining, myspace, facebook, ning etc.

I am not accusing you here, although it may apply. There have been folk come to this forum that were bannished or rejected by or just could not make the grade of the BKWSU. They have been left, or are stuck, almost entirely in a broken BK-ness. Frankly, they must be feeling terrible inside themselves. Dilaram was one, sparkal another ... some of the PBKs are pretty much in a similar situation. Howiemac had struggles in this area.

This is a rough draft but either they treated this forum as a surrogate BKWSU or even to play out 'being the BK', in other cases, one moment they would be hating the BKWSU and in the next one attacking us. Sometimes drawn by the proximity of BKness, at other times repelled by it. Real and understandable in my book. I think it is a terrible thing to be rejected, whilst still half-baked, by the BKWSU.

Is The Baba of the Brahma-kumaris your god or not? I suppose that is what it boils down to.

Like Frisbee and others, I am happier at having this forum as a place for people who want;

out, to rid themselves of Brahma-Kumari conditioning
to help others get out
to help repair some of the damage done, and as
a place to organize the protect from the Brahma Kumaris for the rest of society.

Not for it to be a virtual BKWSU which is what some others miss.

I know a little bit more than others about how this forum is run and I can say for sure that the BK-PBK.info forum is entirely separate and run "by the believers, for the believers". I would describe the way this forum is run as a "loose consensus" of anyone that wants to express an opinion and carry some responsibility. I would also describe it as a bit of a "meritocracy", meaning that the responsibility you carry, the more sense you make, the less burden you place on others; the more weight your opinions will carry.

Any, never leave without a song and dance, that is what I say ... take it away Zero.

I have to agree with John Morgan here. It's better to mix in the marketplace of ideas than create an apartheid. That's what the BK like to do - so often covered on these pages.We all learn from each other, even it is just a reminder of where we were once at.

Even the ranking thing, useful in one way. is limiting in others. Dialectic is my preferred approach.

Like any genius, I am always afraid no one will get what I am talking about ... so that video clip is from the movie, "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" and the lyrics are here. Within a BKWSU context, its quite brilliant really.

I have to agree with John Morgan here. It's better to mix in the marketplace of ideas than create an apartheid.

The flipside to that is that the forum become yet another battleground for propaganda wars and be flooded with copy and paste Murli and BKWSU PR like the rest of the internet.

Not so long ago the forum was becoming dominated by the PBKs and their issues, as xBKchat.com did before us. xBKChat resolved it by blanket banning all PBKs and removing their posts. Before them we had the joys of the 'anti-PBK' Vishnu Party. Frankly, there is no way on earth you could have called that "learning" unless all you need to do is learn not to invite mad and nasty people into your hosue. The fact is, millenarianist evangelists are a lot more motivated to post on internet forum than individuals in a vulnerable state genuinely needing help or wanting to share. Exiting individuals, or 'friends and family of' in a vulnerable state are much more likely to be driven away by them ... so who is this forum for?

Indulge too much BKness and the place will start to smell like it is BKWSU all over again ... there has to be an agenda and it should to be a clear.

By "independent and impartial", to me it says to friends and family of BKs, ex- and exiting BKs as ... "not BKWSU controlled", "not pumpingout the partyline". It does not say, "virtual BKWSU", or covert service tool.

I think the initial idea of an entirely inclusive and ecumencial forum was a great and an important idea ... It failed not because of anyone here but because 'quality souls' from the BKWSU, i.e. BK that think, refused to take any part in it. They refuse to donate to the greater good including addressing issue they knew very well about. Not just refused by the BKWSU, the BKWSU tried to destroy it via the legal action.

This forum can be a tough therapy and is too much of a challenge for the BKWSU advance by secrecy, collusion and deceit, the open discussion of some of the corruption that is going on. I dare say, certain BKs ... who we very well know read it ... did not see enough of a "return" in it for them either. Better to be away writing books to sell or working the VIP or business connections.

The flipside to that is that the forum become yet another battleground for propaganda wars and be flooded with copy and paste Murli and BKWSU PR like the rest of the internet.

Hmm, yes, I can see that being a major problem - but there are no problems, only chances for new solutions.

Suggestion: Maybe a mechanism can be set up within the program, so the various administrators of the various sections, can reviews posts that are going into non-matched forums, i.e. for BKs who want to post on the ex-BK side, and vice versa, when they post, a message comes up saying - "You are registered member the [other] forum. Due to past issues, this post will be vetted by Admin before inclusion. It may be rejected. Do you wish to proceed?" ... or something similar.

Otherwise, if it stays segregated, some of your stated goals can be far less effective, e.g. "to rid themselves of BK conditioning" - if they are discouraged from exposure to the ex-BK side, they are less likely to hear differing views, some of which may "click" and make a difference in their life.

If the quoting verbatim of huge chunks of Murli is the modus operandi of a contributor, well, we soon identify the contributors we are not interested in, and skip their posts anyway. I think it is preferable than blocking completely based on "rank". I hope Admin considers this suggestion or other alternatives.

Well here I am again.

Thanks for your responses.

I have always respected the private message set up. When I ask who sent a message and I get a reply from "Admin" that we are a "loose consensus" the normal rules of pm etiquette do not apply. That is why I posted the message.

My position is that I can take BK-ism or leave it. I am not attention grabbing when I state that I was very deeply affected by the BK both positively and negatively. Now (and in no small part due to this Forum) I have mostly resolved the reasons for my leaving Gyan. I openly castigate the BK for the issues which resulted in my leaving and are still affecting others. Everyone here is extremely resilient. It often seems that a new and wonderful consciousness is slowly emerging within me.

Angels with marvellous strengths of service helping mankind and money and property grabbing manipulative BK are for me two sides of the same coin. That so many are hurt by their interaction with the BK is something I would rather not happen. I have heard non-BK's thank God for giving them the pain they needed when they needed it. This may be an element of what is happening but it cannot be a blanket excuse. The authoritarian approach of the BK which seems to trouble many I do not like or fully understand. It may be that there is a strictly ordered heirarchy of angels and that later I will appreciate that obedience is paramount or it maybe that the tiny insight I now have is the total sum of my part. One thing I have learned is how to create thought which does not hurt.

The reality is that anyone can consider themselves an agent for God, you merely don the attitude. I abhor the status thing, thinking that one is merely an agent doing God's work when helping someone lessens the risk of taking on that person's karma. Lots of people out there will unconsciously dump their karma on you - if they can. The BK consider that they are God's special family, very elite! The proof from their point of view is the strengths that have grown in them through following Bap Dada's advice. God Consciousness is latent in each of us, it is not easy to attain. I am not sure whether the BK are the sole heirs to this type of experience. One thing is for sure. If you have a foot in two boats and they move in different directions you get wet.

When I put everything aside and just use The Knowledge I feel something very good. Sound wave meditation is very good for me also. The method I use is a little more refined than the "Om" of the Mandali. There is a skill in being in two boats at the same time, If they move apart you jump into one until they meet again. Soon I should choose.

I have loved this forum, but if it's aim is to become a place where everyone thinks the same and sees and talks about just one side of the coin it is not for me. Haven't we seen enough of that elsewhere? The cut and thrust of no hold barred debate is rare in this world so why not continue this Forum's noble tradition? Karma will ultimately take care of everyone. Ideas often oppose each other, lets speak all aspects of the Truth, let people decide for themselves, and care for those who come in contact. I am for and against the BK in the same instant, despite everything their knowledge is good and they have considerable merit. I have my own star to follow and whilst I wield a club on occassion I am loth to join one. How about you? and You? and You?

Notes on Spirit Attachment

I rarely post Murli extracts, it merely came out that way. I notice some peoples distaste, possibly valid points were made that even BKs would not appreciate. There are many posts on this Forum that are much longer than my contribution, I am naming no names.

Notes on getting the hump.

Mr Green thanks. I do not have the hump but I have got the bump

Notes that prove that there are independent thinkers on this Forum.

None are necessary.

I think we are all just trying to be as spiritual in the best way as we can, and that means whenever barriers are put up, they want to be taken down, to then be put up again and so on.

To be as free as a bird. There is no agenda for that is there ?

John Morgan,

I am glad you're considering staying around ... in whatever capacity.

You are an elder here, have experience in and out of the BKs, speak to no agenda and no ism. There are a number of elders here, by years and by contributions and by maturity. While having a variety of experiences and viewpoints, we share a quality of sanity and humanity. There is no measure for that ... a quality of balance that we are not just a bunch of hotheads, either praising everything about the BKs or denouncing them. We are more interested in expressing ourselves, listening and communicating than in winning an argument.

We have barriers, boundaries, knowing when to stand up for ourselves. I mention John especially, with the current talk of humping and bumping, and I know others here with much to contribute have had moments of feeling alienated, of having the urge to walk away.

I see as especially important the function of the forum as a community. First and foremost, people suffering the effects of BK-induced insanity need sane, supportive company. Our ability to offer such support depends on the presence of our most experienced members, even if they post only twice a year. They provide a balance for the excesses to which all of us are vulnerable, and are, especially, in an electronic forum where it's harder to communicate warmth. Experienced members bring balance in the context of a constant stream of newcomers, some antagonistic, argumentative, as tho seeking to disrupt our existence as a community.

More important than what one believes, is one's healthy human presence, whether they are Arjun, who last I heard was actively following his path as a PBK, ex-l who has so thoroughly investigated BK revisionism, or Bansy, who seems to write and ask and listen in a way that I feel a warm presence.

I would encourage everyone on this forum to respect the elders here, make them welcome, understanding that their presence here is invaluable, not to be abused or taken for granted. As long as there is a mutually supportive core of elders, I think that we can survive as a community in the face of various disruptions that various agendivists may attempt, whether consciously or otherwise.

So to John, and everyone else who is contributing your human presence here, I encourage you to stick around. Please speak up before you give up! Give yourself a chance to hear how much you are valued here.

Joel

So if this new separation takes place based on what you say ex-l, how do you explain BKti-pit's contributions - a BK by ''rank" but in the short time I have been aware of this site, seems to have shifted perspective considerably, and there are others like him/her.

Where will others feel welcomed as free thinking individuals and not tagged because of their currently held beliefs? If there had been internet and a forum like this in my BK days, I am sure I would have been helped to move along much more quickly than I did.

I am sure I would have been helped to move along much more quickly than I did.

This I fully agree. This forum has grown really well with all the variables, and yet it still remains to be open to all who uses it. This forum uses the virtual world that can sometimes be more real because when you look out of the window, how many people will listen to what you are expressing here? I feel everyone contributes more than they anticipate, there is so much food for thought.

A lot of work is and has been done by Admin over the years, folks should not forget that.

There is actually nothing wrong with the forum. The only thing wrong with the forum is myself. And that is what I have to deal with.

So if this new separation takes place based on what you say ex-l, how do you explain ... If there had been internet and a forum like this in my BK days, I am sure I would have been helped to move along much more quickly than I did.

Two leading questions here.

Firstly, I would like to ask John Morgan himself if he knows what I, and others, pick up when we say he seems to "zone-in" and "zone-out" of Brahma Kumarism. I think this is a very real condition/stage many going through as we, like Jacob, wrestle with our angel.

Secondly, I'd like to ask Bansy what your relationship with the BKWSU really is (without having to disclose yourself). Were you ever a full BK, did you ever leave or where you always a sort of demi-BK? You have mentioned kids at various times on the forum ...

I think you are right, terry, about a forum and resource such as this helping people move along much more quickly than we all did and I know it is having that effect. I have bumped into ex-BK, or 'BK Roadkill' as I am sure they would call themselves, on the street and they have mentioned that they just picked through a few pages of what we have documented and never knew or heard of anything. They were clearly shocked, the results taking some time to process, but they clearly stated stuff like, "they never told us about failed prediction of Destruction in 1976 ... if I had been told that, I would have run a mile" etc.

Just as in family psychology, where they has been abuse, coming to learn and face hard facts accelerates healing if the individual is strong enough or there are sufficent support mechanisms. The website actually feeds people and helps accelerates their growth across all stages of BK-ness from giving them the Murlis straight if they want them, to uncovering the trip wires and skeletons in the cupboard.

I'd say by "Brahmin Law" we should be allowed to give away for free all and any BKWSU copyright material.

Life is never as simple as a binary 'Pro-' versus 'Anti-', so let's not kid ourselves. Being 'Pro-truth', 'Pro-facts', 'Pro-reality' is only 'Anti-BK' as far as the BKWSU is invested into lies, manipulation and falsehood ... which is nothing to be proud of and nothing to perpetuate. Look here, we have this topic and at the same time we have a, "Making the best of your BKWSU experience topic" going on.

What sort of God proclaims, "Go Forth and Deceive" anyway?