How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Why did I believe? Simple - because it appeared to work. The meditations were like nothing on earth and my experiences in, say, Christian churches did not even remotely come close. There had to be something true about it. I did not buy the 5000 year stuff but it is interesting that many people here are quiet willing to accept the official scientific explanation even though they may never have even looked into it and probably have no scientific background. That too is blind faith of a different sort. I know the earth is round - there are so many pictures. But how do I know the earth is 4.5 billions years old? I have to take the word of a bunch of geologists etc. Not saying they are wrong but I must rely on faith.

Now Scientists are human, they gloss over irregularities when it suits them. Just look at global warming. What is the real truth there? Lots of dollars to be made by believing it - for sure. So unless you are yourself an expert in those areas, you must rely on the word of others.

Recently we have just found out that a doctor faked the results showing a connection between Autism and the triple MMR that babies get. I now have heard that you can eat as many eggs as you like ... Now I hear astronomers saying there could be billions of earth like planets (when I was young we were firmly told that was nonsense).

It goes on ... I have a firm scientific background and am an educator of scientists! (actually engineers but same thing for applied science). I am willing to bet that our understanding of the Universe is very simplistic indeed and will change with time as it always has. Multiverses, time-travel and so on. Fiction now maybe but ... ?

Now, back to the 5000 year stuff. I was told time and time again that the earth was not 5000 years old (by the BKs). That the earth was infinitely old in fact but it was the repeating drama that took place on it that was 5000 years old. Bit of a difference. I still did not swallow it of course - I needed proof. The meditation on the other hand was proof in itself. It definitely worked. I did not want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As for sexual abusers etc ... nonsense. It happens everywhere, it's not as if Dadi Janki was ******** the Brothers now, was it! Weakness in a few and everybody gets tarred.

I am not a great fan of the Catholic church but even I know that all priests are not child abusers.

C.

Rajneesh, a bit of a nemesis for the BKs, they clashed the 1950's- said that the BKs believe nonsense

This sounds really interesting. Do you have any more info on this terry? (Google did not seem to show anything).

Welcome back Celtycgyan and thanks for putting things in perspective.

I, too, developed faith on the basis of experience. It worked for me whilst nothing else ever came close to it. To a great extent my early meditation experiences did match The Knowledge, including the 5000 years duration of The Cycle. I had the experience first and got the lesson later. I mean I was only practicing the "I am a soul" bit.

So, although it was far fetched I decided to not reject it, try it out and see. I mean not only the meditation but the whole belief system, but I never shut off my conscience and common sense. Once or twice I followed advice from the Seniors despite some resistance from my conscience and I regretted it.

The whole aspect of the glitches of science may belong to another thread, so I will not expand too much but I also have a background in science, having studied and worked in science. I have seen first hand how results are adjusted to suit the intent of the researcher or the source of financing for the research.

There are a lot of facts that contradict generally accepted scientific theories but scientists generally prefer to stick to their theories until they can come up with a better one. The accuracy of carbon 14 dating is questionable. Many things popularized as scientific facts are far from being proven. There are still a lot of holes and unknown. A geologist I have worked with told me to never believe them!

To affirm that the earth is 4.5 billion years old or that such a galaxy is so many billion light years away is, in my opinion, not much less of an act of faith than believing in the 5000 years cycle.

As for sexual abusers etc ... nonsense. It happens everywhere, it's not as if Dadi Janki was ******** the Brothers now, was it! Weakness in a few and everybody gets tarred.I am not a great fan of the Catholic church but even I know that all priests are not child abusers.

What a pity! A Father, a scientist, who is an educator of scientists, is not able to understand the frightfulness of the child abuse cases in BKWSU and the shameful ignorance and silence of the Seniors after learning about the cases and the names of the BKs who committed those crimes violating the highest code of conduct of all humanity. Those criminals were not delivered to the police and were not punished.

Years long efforts of eromain with countless mails and reports with his real ID asking the Leadership to prepare the necessary regulations and provisions for child protection within the BKworld, were without any result, nothing is done so far.

Go to the thread Abuse and Recovery and read the report of eromain from June 2004 to BKWSU Leadership with his real ID and e-mail address A personal assessment of child protection in BKWSU, documentation of proven risk, abuse disclosure and the ongoing campaign for child protection provision.

Read also in the same thread the other posts of eromain about Child Abuse & the BKWSU I-II-III-IV-V-VI .

After reading these posts and reports I am waiting from you a feedback and an excuse to us forum members. You have belittled the biggest crime of the humanity.

I am not saying there wasn't a crime - there sure was. What I am saying is that you cannot dismiss a whole organisation because of it. The Catholic Church are also going through a similar experience if you remember. Does that turn them into a dangerous cult and the Pope into a child abuser? It is a matter for the law to sort out, not me.

My experience was that I did not see any kids at all at any of our meeting in all the time I was there (5 years). That is not to say it did not happen, just as sex between Brother and Sister happened, I am sure in rare occasions. This doesn't prove anything other than they are cross section of humanity like elsewhere. If they mishandled the affair, then they take steps that it never happens again - of course. But let's not dismiss the whole bunch of eggs on one rotten one.

I am willing to bet that our understanding of the Universe is very simplistic

Most often, simple explanations are the best one.

I think Scientific community should excommunicate you for holding such low opinion on scientific research. I wonder what kind of Scientists you are grooming. Sorcerers??

Your defense of abuse coverup is appalling!!

I'll let others jump on this guy.

Ha - that's good language, EXCOMMUNICATION. Makes science sound like a religion.

Trouble is, some members of the public see science as a religion and this suits them (the scientists) to the ground. They can get their guru hat on and pretend they know everything. A little humility goes a long way. A scientific theory (if it is wrong) often doesn't get disproved until after the death of the top "guru". Why? Ego for one thing and lots of money from grants. A new generation often has new ideas - like the search for exo-planets for instance.

It is the fashion to speak in terms of global warming. If you speak against it you won't get any money for sure - even though your arguments may well be logical and just as valid. (Personally, I have no opinion on it one way or another).
One good example of a truly great scientist is Stephen Hawking. He put forward a theory some 30 years ago that said that basically if matter went into a black hole there would be nothing coming out. That the matter would cease to exist. This goes against the law of thermodynamics "which shall not be broken"!

Some 30 years later he has revised his theory and admitted he was wrong. Einstein also got it wrong once too. "Much later, when I was discussing cosmological problems with Einstein, he remarked that the introduction of the cosmological term was the biggest blunder of his life." -- George Gamow, My World Line, 1970". That's OK as long as you admit it and are honest.

Here is a famous faked experiment even though the conclusion was true: Benjamin Franklin Faked Kite Experiment. Many people believe the moon landings were faked of course. I do not share in this belief for various reasons.

In any case, it never ceases to amaze me how laymen can hold up science as an eternal truth without hardly any study outside of school. One minute it is the truth and when it suits them it is not. People often say to me, "Do you believe in global warming"? I mean it's not like a belief in God. Either it's true that we are messing up the planet or false! For me Science is only as good as the last experiment. However, we must accept current understanding since the alternatives are far worse and a return to the Dark Ages when people were burned as witches.

By writing this, of course, I realise that I may well be guilty of accusing the whole community for actions of few bad eggs. For this I apologise but I did it to illustrate that scientists are humans and do make errors, some of them intentional. In fact, my beliefs are quite mainstream but I don't pretend to know everything and never have. If you know a scientist who does know everything them, please let me know his/her name as I have a few questions.

As for abuse in the BKs, I do not and never did defend it. It is a matter for the law and courts. It is not something I have a fix for. I don't see any good in knocking the whole organisation for the sins of a few. Tabloid type replies of horror as with the previous post will be ignored.

C.

Rajneesh, a bit of a nemesis for the BKs, they clashed the 1950's - said that the BKs believe nonsense.

This sounds really interesting. Do you have any more info on this terry? (google did not seem to show anything)

I don't have much information. This is anecdotal, from a conversation with Nirwair Bhai of Madhuban. Apparently while still Acharya Rajneesh - and not yet graduated to Bhagwan Rajneesh - he wanted to set up his ashram in Mt Abu, I think sometime in the 60's (50s was a mistake). Because of his liberal and open philosophy, his followers were "immodest" in clothing and lifestyle, amidst a very conservative community. There was a community push to get them all to go before they got established (probably involved the BKs), which eventually succeeded and they moved to Puna instead.

it never ceases to amaze me how laymen can hold up Science as an eternal truth without hardly any study outside of school. One minute it is the truth and when it suits them it is not.

As you said, it's laymen who do that, not scientists. What scientists hold up is the scientific method. Laymen, like religious fundamentalists, will decry science when it suits, but rely on it in emergencies, or even when driving the car! Until a better one comes along they will use that as the touchstone. (Newsbreak - scientists are human too, prone to greed and corruption and ambition. They are peer reviewed, and if found wanting, are at least diminished in reputation).

Most of the cases about falsifying results for money are mainly connected with the pharmaceutical industries. The main fields we'd be concerned with - vis a viz Gyan - would be geology (the mining industry couldn't care less how old the gold is), astronomy, physics. Not areas of large profiteering - any falsity here 'd be about ambition and pride.

Radio carbon dating, the light speed constant, etc etc - all have a potential margin of error, none of which is anywhere near large enough to include the BK postulates. Science is clear in it's distinction between hypothesis, theory, fact, law and axiom. If something does not get past "theory" status, it will continue to be called a theory - "Theory of Evolution" - because it can neither be proven or disproven by today's methods. It is generally accepted as the "working" theory by the majority until something better emerges, as it best "answers" the available evidence.

The technology you are using now - the internet or mobile phones - is all possible because of Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" - it is still "only a theory". It is the "working theory" - based only on mathematics - and because of it, here you are reading this, possibly within seconds of my posting it!

What I am saying is that you cannot dismiss a whole organisation because of it.

Your defense of abuse coverup is appalling!! I'll let others jump on this guy.

Won't jump on you Celticgyan. Here's my hand - it's not about the organisation being responsible for the crime. Like the Catholic church, it is about acknowledging the reality (of human nature, of the crime, of the effects and so on) and putting in place systems, protocols and such, to:

1) minimise it happening
2) act swiftly, compassionately and within the requirements of the law when it does happen
3) provide support for the victim, justice and/or therapy for the perpetrator

We all think more highly of organisations that take responsibility and put right the things that have gone wrong within their "domain".

Organisations that are more concerned about their immediate reputations and public face in fact diminish both.

I am just catching up on this interesting topic but must underline and add the suicides, broken families and financial abuses. I am in the fortune, or unfortunate position of knowing very real cases of them all and having witnessed firsthand the results. That, 70 years of "efforts" later, the leadership moved to "save face" and grind down voices of concern is more than enough evidence of where they are really at ... and where the path takes people.

Yes, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh only ran camps in Mount Abu between 1969 to 1974, mainly for Indians. He lived in Mumbai.

I do not deny the "power" of the specific experiences individuals have. I do separate them from just the general euphoria of being in a group, or on a buzz, with like minded individuals. We feel that elsewhere. Much of my thoughts recently are about looking at the many other possible explanations for them, from hypnotism to spiritualism while trying to equate those experience with all the human stuff the movement has produced. To be frank, after 77 years, I do not think it is the product is that hot ... and its getting worse

I also underline what eromain has just written. We did not just fool ourselves. We were also actively fooled. This is true. What ever good there is, within the individual followers of the Brahma Kumaris, is undermined by this. The Seniors, Dadi Janki, Jagdish Chander, Nirwair and all the rest, knew of, hid and covered up the past. The use of deception that we have documented going on today was just as active back in the 1990s and 1980s. Personnally, I got sucked in by the lure of the most obvious one. The claim the were teaching Raja Yoga or even funnier, "Ancient Raja Yoga". They are not. Their practise only dates back to after 1950.

As for science, yes it is a religion in the purest sense, a way of life. I think the "BKWS University" should be demanded to accept scientific method, peer review etc for all they pump out. That they do not, including the lack of any censorial measures, defines them as nothing more than a mediumistic cult.

Hi folks,

I haven't set foot in a BK centre for about 8 years! Have no intention of but if the opportunity arose I may go in for an evening or some such. I don't hold grudges or feel that life was wasted. Quite the contrary, I do feel I became a little more of a complete person. I may well have lapsed by now, of course, back into an annoying old so and so! I never believed the 5000 years stuff - my Sister was a geologist and joined before me! That did not stop her either. I stopped going when I changed countries - that's all.

So many new things to find I lost interest. Nobody came knocking at my door cult style. I did have one nasty experience when I visited the Global Co-Orperation House. Whilst living in the UK I was visiting London on business and was told by my centre Sister to call in and see Sister XX (identity withheld but she is high up the chain!). She spend ten minutes basically giving me a bollocking about my attendance at morning class etc etc!

I did not like that, of course, but I had seen the BKs in the mid-late 70s in Kilburn when things were very powerful indeed. I knew there was something beyond the individuals and wouldn't be put off by that. I wasn't fooled into believing, it was based on my experience alone.

Problem was that since I believed the 5000 year cycle was nonsense and that Destruction was NOT imminent, I found it hard to reconcile why a God would tell rubbish one minute and gems of knowledge the next. This was an enigma and in my mind could only be solved as seeing what we call Shiv-Baba as some form of intelligence from outside earth communicating.

The alternative was that it was all nonsense and I knew from experience that this could not be true. One minute I am a pure evolutionist and atheist and the next I believe in a Soul. That is the "scar" left on me forever. I don't consider it anybody's fault though.

Top Ten Science-based predictions that didn’t come true:

10. “The earth’s crust does not move”- 19th through early 20th century accepted geological science. See Plate Tectonics.

9. “The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.” — Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project.

8. “That virus is a pussycat.” — Dr. Peter Duesberg, molecular-biology professor at U.C. Berkeley, on HIV, 1988.

7. “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” — Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.

6. “Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” — William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, British scientist, 1899.

5. “There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” — Albert Einstein, 1932.

4. “Space travel is bunk.” — Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of the UK, 1957 (two weeks later Sputnik orbited the Earth).

3. “If I had thought about it, I wouldn’t have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can’t do this.” — Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M “Post-It” Notepads.

2. “Stomach ulcers are caused by stress” — accepted medical diagnosis, until Dr. Marshall proved that H. pylori caused gastric inflammation by deliberately infecting himself with the bacterium.

1. “Telltale signs are everywhere —from the unexpected persistence and thickness of pack ice in the waters around Iceland to the southward migration of a warmth-loving creature like the armadillo from the Midwest. Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7° F.” — Climatologist George J. Kukla of Columbia University in Time Magazine’s June 24th, 1975 article, 'Another Ice Age?'

C.

I also underline what eromain has just written. We did not just fool ourselves. We were also actively fooled.

Yes, rethinking this point - I'd say we did fool ourselves in to it - i.e. we choose to "buy" what is offered, but the institution keeps actively fooling people to keep them in, using every trick in the book (but I think they still consciously believe what they are doing is right).

Other quick thoughts on this:

1) mentioned earlier the substitute Father, mother, family, community etc ... Well, that can carry over into substitute religion, e.g. a person being raised Catholic but rationally disappointed or emotionally unfulfilled, so looking for an alternative religion.

2) a refuge from, or counter-balance to a hedonistic lifestyle that was threatening to overwhelm, or become "unsatisfactory" - like detoxing.

3) a refuge from "growing up" - the ''Puer" or "Peter Pan" complex mentioned earlier.

All of these, and more, lead to a dependancy being created, and then the person becomes (more) vulnerable to abuse or manipulation.

I'll also add a response to celtic's last, as I have just read it - the pronouncement of scientists in your examples are not dictums of god, they are saying what they "believe" based on their interpretation of the facts to date, and are usually willing to change. They are also governed by quirks of personality and emotion. Einstein for example lent his efforts to developing the atom bomb so that the Germans wouldn't get there first.

I recently heard a lecture replayed, talks by Richard Dawkins followed by Stephen Gould - both are biologists, both with differing ideas about what the evidence in their field meant. It was held in the best of spirits, both made jokes at their own expense - there was no personal slighting going on. They valued the work of the other, and the dialectic that sorted chaff from wheat.

I think you are missing the point about Science. When the news media interview Scientists they don't want an answer such as, "I don't know the answer". That doesn't make good news. Instead they want a firm explanation and they invariably get it whether it is true or not! I have been in that situation myself when a radio presenter asked me a question and I replied something like, "We don't know the answer to that at present" to which you are met by a stunned silence! He doesn't know? What sort of Scientist is he?!

They then go on to expect you to speculate. It is true that those scientists gave what they believed at the time based on the evidence, a valid explanation. However, by making such snap comments it makes them look like fools today. It would have been better to reply " I don't know". I heard another story of a Prof in London giving a talk on why electric light was impossible. Around the same time Edison was demonstrating the real thing. Sometimes it is better to not know what is impossible, then you can achieve it!

On the same line, when you ask a Guru (or Dadi) a question you expect a definitive answer, not an, "I have no idea about that" or whatever. Our expectations are high of them too. They don't have all the answers either, but they have a good few interesting ones.
To answer somebody elses question as to what my BK status is - I suppose I am the sort of BK that makes up my own knowledge as I go along based on the basic BK philosophy and throws out the bits I don't like! Just the kind of BK that should and did leave. I know I am not alone!

C.

Wow - this is a hot topic. I shall have to come back later to read it all. Meanwhile, I want to reply to Terry from the previous page:

Terry: "Truth" is what serves the ego at that time.
Leela : Ego is the function that keeps us in opposition to what is.
Terry" .."a definition of ego" so there it is.

Yes, I did use the word definition, but I think there is a more important point here and perhaps I should have said point of view or perspective. These two descriptions of ego are, of course, two sides of the same coin, and so they are the same thing. But they look out in opposite directions.

From the first perspective, where the truth is perceived as what serves the ego at that time, I am looking for God outside of myself, I am seeking a definable sense of identity in opposition to others. In this perspective, teachings like the BKs are very appealing and can and did serve me.

The second perspective acknowledges that what I am need not be found in opposition to other. You say the "what is" is overwhelming. YES! It is in being overwhelmed by what is that I see the senselessness of defining my identity in opposition to or as separate from you. When my perspective shifts to this one, I no longer respond to dualistic teachings such as the BKs offer.

Celtic (and terry), as per PM, I was still writing when you replied so you might want to change your reponse (as just happened again).

I think many of those examples fail scientifically because they are predictions, not "laws" or findings, and one or two because they cross over into politics and propoganda whether military (the nuclear weapons) or industrial (IBM pushing main frame versus personal computers).

One of the BIG differences, and virtues of science is that there is a public record, a history and open discussion within academia. Ideas are peer reviewed before they are accepted, individual's censored and discredited if they go to far. Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.

Where would speaking out publicly within the Brahma Kumari movement bring you? ... Well, bannished from the system and writing on BrahmaKumaris.Info I suspect. Their unlawful misuse of the term University is another dishonesty and an terrible insult to those attempting real academic standards. Including grunt work scientific researchers.

terry, was it, quoted the 'Penniless Prince' BK Nirwair recently saying, "we are a family, we don't discuss matters in public".

No, Nirwair Bhai, that is a conspiracy to deceive.

It is a double lie in my opinion, because in their minds who is in "the family", and who is within the movement in general, are two different things. Both the VIP donator buying a center and a chapati roller in some Gita Pathsala might both be led to think that they are "in the family". But they are not. They are being used.

Challenge "the family", even when you are in the right, and you are not "in the family".

I am sceptical of and warn against "the experiences". I think they are at least partly the effects of mediumship.

On perusing this thread one particular thing jumped out at me. It was ex-I's reference to Ancient Raja Yoga as taught by the BKs being traceable back to the 1950's.

Sometimes it seems as if The Knowledge is an expression of an experience. As one's internal energy level increases, it is possible to experience oneself as an eternal being inside a body. In certain states of being something "ancient" may emerge in consciousness. So words such as eternal and immortal explain an experience. Terminology such as original sanskaras, burning off the dross etc to me indicate something hidden in "normal consciousness" which is unearthed in "super consciousness."

One is asked to take Gyan literally. I am not certain that it should be. The Cycle of 5000 years, meeting one's long lost beloved during the Confluence Age, the whole package is designed to bring out high energy states of being that are lying latent within us. We think we are merely human and sometimes we get a glimpse of our higher self. The Knowledge can reveal this higher self permanently. until The Cycle of Golden Age, Silver Age etc brings us back to now once more.

Most people who have studied Gyan have experienced peace or bliss or ecstasy in meditation. It seems as if the Seniors have a stock of power which they can distribute at will in order to give a taster and spur effort. If one experiences more peace now than one did 5 minutes ago one could say that one is closer to God. Taken to its limits this eternal potentiality is in each of us and many think it is the purpose of life on this earth to realise it.

Many humans love other humans in a human way, often these interactions do not fulfill the parties involved. Some when they learn to control their thought and imagine an eternal relationship with an eternal beloved experience incredible happiness. As we get nearer to the source of thought the experience intensifies. Gyan is a method a yukti of accessing what lies within us. Certain rules are best observed if one wishes to atain this experience quickly.

To live in Gyan as if it is true can result in quick uncovering of this experience. We are having Yoga with our own highest selves and Bap Dada smart as he is knows how to take us there. Say there are yogis and they invent Gyan. Contained within Gyan are a set of tools which if accurately used result in God Consciousness. It is a perilous journey but it is the most worthwhile one each of us can make. The marvel of The Knowledge is that is one considers that one is having Yoga with God the experience of transcendental happiness is intensified. One thinks thoughts about it and the thought forms become more refined then happiness grows and pretty soon its everywhere. Few know about it.

From what I've read or heard other Yogis seem to be aware of something similar and have other methods which may or may not work. In Western terms, it may be called fullfilling one's own potential but many of the millionaires I've met did not seem that happy.

Whether Baba is a lie or not I do not know. If I look at the BK in the light of my past experiences they are the most dangerous people I have ever encountered. Their saving grace is that if I take their knowledge on board and treat it literally then magic happens. When I come out of meditation I pack it all up and put it away. If I say to a prospective employer "destruction is just around the corner" is he going to give me a job? No way. Internally I sometimes take it very, very literally, externally in my interactions with others its just a small point of light that vanished without trace.

So in meditation one creates marvellous thought forms, as one's thought becomes more and more concentrated and the thought forms one deliberately creates become happier and happier one is accessing ecstasy. And yes this experience serves others. But go slowly, everything in us that is not conducive to the experience of supersensuous joy must be worked through and the human psyche can be a minefield - trust me I really know about this! Did we forget ourselves? Oh yes, we most certainly did!

I could write and write about remembrance but if you learn to create your own thoughts of tremendous happiness I think you may have understood what Gyan is all about. Do I believe its Baba - of course! Do I think it may not be Baba - of course! Wishing you all well on your greatest journey - that of self discovery or in BK speak remembrance.