How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

I don't think we can place values such as "high energy state" casually. We don't know. Terry, I suspect, would argue that it was not "an experience of the self as an eternal being" as we were told it was, just "an experience" of some eternal archetype or within us (excuse my rough hash of the concept, perhaps he will write for himself what he thinks).

Both things are the the same, they were "experiences", questionable or indulgable. But the nature of the experiences were used for their addictiveness, as hooks.

Would we not agree that real spiritual teachers would set individuals free (and had little need of their bank balances and properties) ... so what was the nature of the experiences?

    Worms on hooks dragging us to the surface or under the surface?
These days I am thinking the *really* powerful experiences and inspirations are not the ones that knock the wind out of us, or send our hearts and minds swirling but are the tiny, little most subtle ones that we mostly miss all the time. The indiscernable ones. I am thinking that the mediumistic and anaesthetic effects are lower ones.

Terry

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

Ego is the function that keeps us in opposition to what is.
In your quote Leela,"ego" is that which needs to be transcended to be, or feel, part of the "All". True enough. I hope that what is understood from what i have been writing is this. The ego is a necessary function, or state, of the psyche. But it can be healthy or unhealthy. A healthy ego is able to transcend itself, or let itself be transcended , then return. We need to do it, if not naturally, then we seek unnatural means.

We use different ways - meditation, exhilaration, sleep, drugs, creativity, play, and so on - to go beyond the usual boundaries of ego, whether to become hyper-conscious, or into the unconscious. In sleep for example, which is when our ego regularly shuts down, we do so many unconscious functions for the health of the body - and dreaming is a function necessary for health of psyche. That's why i think you cannot use sleeping tablets for long, they inhibit many of the functions of natural sleep, leading to other illnesses, both physical and psychological.

e.g. Sleep deprivation as a form of torture is found to be most effective when the REM sleep is always disturbed, i.e the time we are dreaming. An animal experiment in the 60's - wouldn't be allowed these days - compared cats, who sleep often. Those that were interrupted only in non-REM time were fine. Those that were interrupted only during REM not only became seriously ill - despondent, loss of appetite, stopped grooming etc - many just eventually died! (All other aspects, feeding etc were normal and equal )

Converse to all that - Opposition only exists with position. if we have no ego, we have no position. It is the opposition (of energies) that a dance takes place - newton's laws - Yin and Yang. The stuff of life, We can, and need to, hold "no position" and not be in opposition, for limited periods. It cannot be a permanent state. If it is the aim is to make it permanent, then it is to go beyond life. That is an essential part of Jain belief, which informed Gautama Siddhartha. Do you know the Jain symbol of the universe? I 'll try and dig it up and post it here
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leela

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

Hello again John Morgan, and I am very glad you did not leave. And thank you for these quotes:
One is asked to take Gyan literally. I am not certain that it should be ... To live in Gyan as if it is true can result in ...

Yes, even all those years ago, when I was completely hypnotised by the whole package, I felt the same. I did not take the 5000 year cycle as literal, but more as a technique. I believed that to live as if it were true would produce the changes/energies/experiences or whatever that would finally reveal The Truth.

In general, I feel I was neither fooled nor that I fooled myself. I am, however, still mystified by the whole experience if I try to explain the whys, hows and wherefores of it all. But it feels like an important and formative experience that should be honored. After all, it lasted for about 14 years from start to finish. And it also feels like an essential part of my journey of self-discovery, which thankfully continues in new and exciting directions. It's very interesting to me that you call this rememberance.

Terry

More interesting ideas. I will take this further into inner inquiry. I am not as widely read as you and I am trying to describe and speak from experience only. I don't (yet?) see that no opposition means no life. But then I am only just beginning to discover what Life looks and feels like when I put down my oppositonal position. So far, I love it!

celticgyan

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

I think it would be better for them not to call themselves a University too but there are Universities and universities! You can call yourself a college in some countries when you are a school for instance (high-school). Would it be better if they said they were a Meditation School? Would people then claim that the word School was wrong too? In any case I would avoid the word University for the good of the orgainisation.

There is an ecstasy or at least Honeymoon Period that goes with this Raja Yoga (as they call it). Maybe that is why people can get so bitter after they leave since the feeling has gone. A bit like coming off a drug and having withdrawal symptoms.

I do agree that the organisation appears to have gone off on a tangent from around 1997 or so. It all started with Uri Gellar and Dadi Janki in a show in London. Was that really necessary? They appear to be going commercial. They do need to go back to their roots. I can see a split happening - like the Catholic church and Protestants. I do feel like arguing about The Knowledge is a bit like the Victorians arguing about how many angels could fit on a pin-head! Having said that, Raja-Yoga does appear to work whether you believe in it or not! I suspect the Pineal Gland in the brain. As to where the messages come from and who Baba is - God alone knows!

C

Terry

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

john morgan wrote:We think we are merely human and sometimes we get a glimpse of our higher self.

"What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world - the paragon of animals!" - Billy Speare.
leela wrote:I don't (yet?) see that no opposition means no life.

I am talking of it in a particular way, you may be using a different sense. Are you meaning "separated from" what is, or "confronted by" what is?

I am saying that ego gives boundaries, which do need to be "shut down" or transcended occassionally for well being, but you cannot stay there. You need ego just to drive safely down the street.
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Mr Green

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

I would say Celtic believes Raja Yoga works whether it does or not.
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desi_exbk

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

celticgyan wrote:Ha - that's good language, EXCOMMUNICATION. Makes science sound like a religion.

I am assuming you got the irony - it's not clear to me from your reaction. If not, notice the italics in my post. Also, that post was an expression of outrage - a shriek.

I want to make couple of quick points about the abuse and then move on to the science topic. (WARNING: there will be lot of irony. Can not help it. Sorry!)

As for the sexual abuse case, BKWSU's apathy, impotence and inaction springs from one of their basic tenets: Karma/Karmic account. According to them, it is the victim's karma to have brought that upon him/herself. That undermines the upspeakable horrors commited by the perpetrators. If you see any karmic account in play between two people, you are supposed to turn away - you can dig up other threads where Dadi Janaki is quoted along those lines. I'll rest my case here. (Thank you 'other' folks, you did not let me down)

Now the science thingy:

So, what is this deal in you playing the Gyan Swan, picking just the good BK teachings and leaving the rest? Is not that completely manmath? You are supposed to use that spook's or SS' intellect. Not yours!! By the way, that Karma definition comes from the same source of all the BK teachings. Enough is said about how Science gets it merit (thanks again to the 'other' folks). But, here is my qualm about your inclination to support BKWSU/teachings/their God - I know only some parts of it.

The way it is played out in India is like this - BK HEADLINE NEWS (not just tabloids): "World Renowned Scientist meets BapDada" or "World Renowned Scientist dismiss Theory of Relativity" or "World Renowned Scientist finds Dadi Janki as the most stable mind in the world". It is played out in every BK center, marketed in every mela/exhibithion to emphasize how "Science" supports BK philosophy. An average Indian - yep, one those stone intellects - hears this and doubts his common sense and get's into "may be it is true" mind set. The downfall begins from there.

Unfortunately, lots of people with common sense trust science and believe scientists.

celticgyan

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

I am no angel Brothers, I may well be manmath! (or whatever math you choose). I did try the angelic thing and became quite a gentle person in fact but I joined them more for knowledge. That is to say I don't know if it transformed me but it did give me room for thought and it was answers I was seeking, not transformation.

Some good points about BKs hanging on to famous scientists etc. It did not cut any ice with me of course since they are my own kind and therefore I know they are ordinary people. I was always told by our centre Sister that you must abide by the laws of the land - whatever land you happen to be living in that is.

Even though they do believe in the Karma thing taking care of many bad actions, they would also believe in the law doing their job as well. Hence is any of the Seniors did cover up abuse, then it would be up to the authorities to see if any laws had been broken. The BKs after all are pretty lawful bunch - they have rules and laws on everything from taking a crap to wiping your bum.

I feel a bit sorry for those that fell for the whole thing hook line and sink. It must be tough on them now. To give up everything and live in a centre must have been quite an experience for them. I wonder if status drove many of these people? The thought that they would be a king or some such in a later life? I often wondered. I thought it would be just nice to get some peace into this present life and I would be quite happy.

C.
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

And, as you are new to the forum Dec, let us me reminded that Dadi janki was outed by the journalist "Captain Porridge" no less ... that "no scientist ever made the statement that Dadi Janki was the 'Most Stable Mind in the World'" He could not find the department existing which they claimed made it and the university knew nothing about it ... it did not even make it into the Limca book of world records.

The BKWSU (UK) sent out an official notice with the Murlis to tell the centers to stop using it. Madhuban (BK Karuna Shetty etc) promptly ignored them and keeps pumping out the 30 year old myth to the 'second class service' Indians ...

Did we fool ourselves or were we fooled ... people are still being fooled.

Somewhere there is a Dadi Janki "Scientists versus Silentists" video on the internet. I might try an dig out out ... but you have heard it all before. Its the same old stuff. They did not even use such a good title for the show. Elsewhere I mentioned them doing an impressive VIP gig at Robin Gibb's country mansion on the scientists and mystics theme. Its been repeating since at least the early 80s.
terry wrote:You need ego just to drive safely down the street.

Is that a Lancia Ego or a Toyota Ego? I would still recommend Dodge Ego.
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Mr Green

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

It's not something to feel bad about, same as it is not something to gloat over others that went in further than yourself, it just happened

Most long term Western BKs are well read and well educated, it's not an intelligence thing,,,,,just remember in this case the conners are not really so as they too were conned and are still being conned
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tom

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

celticgyan wrote:Even though they do believe in the Karma thing taking care of many bad actions, they would also believe in the law doing their job as well. Hence is any of the Seniors did cover up abuse, then it would be up to the authorities to see if any laws had been broken. The BKs after all are pretty lawful bunch - they have rules and laws on everything from taking a **** to wiping your bum.

celticgyan, it is a wonder how you consider "the famous scientists" to be "of your own kind". I don't see in your posts any clue of the basic specialty of being a scientist, which is curiosity, what you don't have. You have not even read the previous posts about the issues you are writing to this forum. You don't have the habit or method of searching and reading, yet you claim to be a scientist. Being any teacher of technical issues does not make you one. Without knowing what your respected Senior Sisters are doing in their kingdom, you are trying to make a PR work here, that they are lawful.You should read the posts about financial corruption cases against the UK BKWSU which some members found out with research.

The BK rules you mention about taking shower after bowel movements or kitchen rules are practical things to teach cleanliness to the illiterate local BKs in order to keep the centers and the HQ clean and without any repulsive odor.

The other rules however, like celibacy, Amrit Vela, 6.00 a.m. Murli, 5 times traffic control, detaching oneself from all lokik relations, rejecting reading novels, going to the cinema, sports etc. and absolute obedience to the Seniors and to the center-in-charges etc. are manipulative measurements for the mind control of the believers.

If you would made a little research in the main topics of this forum, you would see, that more than one third of the whole forum's pages are dedicated to the posts directed to the BK leadership, asking them to create a duty of care policy for the protection of the BKs, which are send home when they get ill or old,- if any home is left-, to prepare some rules for the protection of the members from abuse of the superiors during their BK life and in case they leave the BKs after many years of isolated center life, from loneliness and from suicidal tendencies or breakdown.

You have not read the previous posts about child abuse cases and suicide cases even murder case in the centers and you still claim that the law should decide. Law should decide for whom? For the Seniors of course, who cover up these crimes and criminals and never deliver them to the police, never bring them in front of the court.

You also claim not to have seen any child in your Madhuban visits. I don't know what to say to so much
ignorance. At every Madhuban visit - I have been years long every year to Madhuban and stayed long enough there, i have seen dozens of children from babies to teenagers with their parents in the dining room and on the stage paying respect to BapDada. Two or three years ago there were at one BapDada meeting around 500 little children dressed as Kings, with paper crones on their heads and stars in their hands saluting from the hall their beloved BapDada. Every big center in the big cities has special programs for the children of the BKs and their relatives. Have you not heard about the Relax Kid's programs regularly going on since years in the Oxford Retreat Centre? I will not give you any link any more, make a search.

Parents bringing their children to Madhuban with the illusion to get blessings from God for their child, are too busy running from one place to another, from one classroom to another and from one meditation room to some another program. Sometimes the children are left alone with the BKs. And as a Father you should have known in your lokik life, that it is the most difficult issue, to learn from a child what happened if a pedophile sexually abuses the child.The life of the child is ruined from this moment on, the parents can not understand the character changes of the child, of course they would never suspect any abuse could have happened in the holly abode where God incarnates, where purity and celibacy is the highest code of conduct.

It takes sometimes years, until one day the grown up young person suffering still under the most frightful moments of his/her life which ruined their childhood, discloses the event to one family member or to one friend. (In most of the cases they don't speak till the end of their lives). And if one family friend makes a search and learns that the perpetrator is still in the same place where he committed the crime, the BK Leadership is informed from the crime which happened in the past. What is the decision of the "God's right and left hands" ? They send the perpetrator away -probably to another unknown center- and cover up the issue.

The perpetrator is not delivered to the police and therefore he is not interrogated. So how many other victims of that pedophile are silently suffering under the complications of that abuse, and are not helped, nobody knows. And because of the cover up nobody knows if any other pedophiles are still waiting in some centers dark corners for their victims knowing that their crimes would be covered up and they would not be punished.

How would you feel if it would happen to your own child?

Would you still say, "It happens everywhere", "the Seniors do believe in the law and doing their jobs as well." "It is a matter for the law to sort out, not me."

celticgyan

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

Curiosity was the reason I joined the BKs in the first place. Call it 'scientific curiosity' if you will but that was the reason I joined. I did not join to become a King of Kings in another time or to become superior to others in some way. I wanted to learn their ways. Now that does not imply that I put them all into practice - as BKs go I would have rated myself very low in The Ladder - but that suited me.

When I said no children - I meant at my local centre - and that was a fact. Many could vouch for that. I saw all sorts of things happen from fierce arguments to people turning up drunk - but no children.

If there had been children there and I had known about such things then I would have contacted the police for sure. So my experiences are quite localised - Indian BKs are different for sure.

We had quite a famous Scientist come round to visit us from time to time as a so-called VIP. He worked in a different area from me all together but I believe he was interested in Psychic stuff. He used to come around, give a short talk on a Sunday and then leave. We were always told that Scientists would prove that the soul exists and photograph it! I always had a snigger when they said that.

Not in my life-time.

C
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tom

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

celticgyan wrote: So my experiences are quite localised - Indian BKs are different for sure.

Your ignorance is tiresome. You are not willing to understand and respond with reason to a post written in a very simple language. Never mind. I am considering you as a real example, how BKWSU's mental conditioning continues to affect one BK's mind even after so many years having left Gyan.

It is not the point, if you would go to the police or not. It is about how the Seniors are ignoring their duty of care despite of all reports and queries sent to them. The Seniors are responsible from the surrendered BKs' and their children's welfare and are obliged to take all necessary steps to protect them in the Yagya or after leaving Gyan. The Seniors are the ones who condition the BKs to surrender their bones and so they have to carry all obligations. This child abuse case is only one example. Don't become racist now. It is Leadership's global duty of care.
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desi_exbk

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Feb 2009

Thanks for the clarification, ex-l. I was using that 'stable mind' thing to make my point as to how BKWSU uses their associations, photo-ops or meetings with scientists, celebrities, politicians and rich folks to sell their knowledge to the Indian public at large.

Back to the central theme of this thread.

As kids, we did not have the luxury of making "informed choices". So, the question of "how did we fool ourselves into believing the BKs?" does not apply to us (be it T, sukhi or me).

WE ARE THE VICTIMS OF BKWSU'S PHILOSOPHY. Period!

We were not taught anything better. Our dreams stomped, life's trajectories altered.

I would say that we are the "collateral damage" of our parents' quest for truth. In all fairness, I wouldn't go about blaming our parents. Because, they themselves are the victims of foolery by a delusional, living in denial, megalomaniacal bunch.
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post20 Feb 2009

john morgan wrote:Lowering your defences is safe to do only after you have become sure that you are not opening your self up to cultic forces ... (making) you rush zombie-like to your chequebook to make uncontrollable donations to unspeakable causes.

You lost me with the rest, but I get this bit. There is, of course, a difference between a static, archetypal fairy story and an actively sceheming bureaucracy filled with zealous adherents ... not to mention the spooks.

I hear what you are saying Deccani and I think we should all take time to contemplate on it. How many 10,000s of children through the last 3 decades have gone through this?
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