Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:Terry, so by all accounts you have given, you are an entirely unqualified individual talking theory. Is that correct?

I am a fully qualified individual. I was born that way, and despite what people may have tried to do to me, I still am.

Do you ask yourself the same questions you ask me before posting? Has this all not been already answered elsewhere? What is it in my last post that you question, other than the author? I don't think this topic is an appropriate place for a personal debate.

I felt this topic, being partly in honour of Esther's and others' suicides, was a good place to offer suggestions on how to approach finding professional help. "Professional help" comes in many forms. It can be daunting for someone considering it for the first time to know what they are dealing with. This topic is likely to be of interest to someone who has harboured similar thoughts.

The main thing is - the client/patient needs to feel empowered to proceed, and to determine whether a therapist is appropriate for them. (Despite degrees and letters after a name, not all therapists are equal, many can be hasty with prescribing drugs. (I have written elsewhere defending drug therapy when it's really needed, but they are overprescribed).

Therapists are no different to other professions, some are good, some bad. You might say that, as you are dealing with matters of character, personality, emotion, these are good determinants by which you can decide if a therapist is good for you. There needs to be a good interaction between therapist and client, otherwise it is a waste of time, even counterproductive.

if anything I am saying is not common sense, I am sure you will let me know.
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

I just asked a simple, leading question ...

OK, I take it what you are saying is that you not a qualified psychotherapist etc. Did you seek psychiatric or psychotherapeutic help on leaving the BKWSU etc?

What was your experience, or the experience of those ex-BKs you are aware of, that did seek psychiatric help?
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primal.logic

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

okay ex-l, you can be a little prickly, so Terry, please don't take offence. Terry is very thoughtful and has made valid suggestions. I agree that in the UK and Oz psychotherapy is considered to be the domain of losers and so people mistakenly avoid it. In fact, I wonder if they even know where to go? If you don't, just go to your GP and ask them to be referred.

I went to a recommended GP some years ago because my Sister was pushing me hard - she could see what a mess I was after leaving Gyan (mind you, this was 5 years after!). In that time I had been to university to complete a year of a psychology degree. That proved to be immensely useful. Anyway - the GP referred me through to a psychiatrist. At that point I had nothing to lose - I was utterly not interested in talking heads, but what the heck. This proved life changing - he was an idiot really, but at least we were able to establish that I am ADHD. It was like someone had turned the light on. It was only from that point that I was able to find my way out of the mess I was in.

But this highlights a point that has been raised and is pretty much the central issue - that there is a vast plethora of psychological dysfunctions lying repressed in the collective BK consciousness. No one joins the BKs because they are too happy to deal with life - we all became BKs because they provided a satisfying explanation for why we felt life was a pile of s**t. So the inevitable conclusion is that we were all, by degrees, dysfunctional when we became BKs.

The proper understanding of the nature and permanence of that dysfunction is why a duty of care program is required. I know of many BKs who exhibit signs of ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) and OCD (Obsessive-compulsive disorder). Who knows what was going on with Esther.

The BKWSU is not even trying to establish if BK life is safe for the individuals concerned. They have no clue how to address these types of critical issues. The irony is - and I have no doubt - that Jayanti herself is ADHD. Perhaps that is why she is so resistant to the real needs of the BK family - she is so repressed (and I don't think anyone would argue that point) that she has numbed herself emotionally and simply cannot feel empathy for the plight of others.

As one of the principle decision makers in the BKWSU, she is the single biggest obstacle to progress in matters related to duty of care.
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

Its like I say, its not how big your obsessive-compulsive disorder is, it is what you do with it. No offense meant primal.logic but I am trying to take this conversation (and others) down to reality ... the practical ... not inexperienced theory.

Where I am leading to is facing the 'state of the art' as far as the provision of mental health services for ex-cult members. I do not think it is enough to state beneficently, "go and see a therapist" as if they all have a magic wand. They don't ... but they do have sedatives that would have probably saved Esther.

Individuals seeking help require pre-arming, pre-warning and support. Let's face it, it is only a tiny proportion of ex-adherents that will either have the financial means or the cultural resources to go and do so. Other cultures have other approaches and other standards of "mental health" (bear in mind Esther was from a Chinese background).

Just these problems are the discussion of many in the cult awareness/cult survivor world. And, then there is the other half of my statement ... Brahma Kumarism will sounds so insane to any non-BK. I mean, if you were not a Brahma Kumari and you believed what the Brahma Kumaris believe ... you would be sectioned.

terry, in your studies or recovery, did you undergo long term or any psychotherapy?
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primal.logic

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

yes I know of one Brother in Brazil who was shoved into therapy by his family. His psychiatrist thought he was paranoid (end of the world, won't eat outside food etc) and delusional (Golden Aged emperor) and diagnosed him schizophrenic. He was put onto anti psychotics. No more BK!

I understand your desire to see things kept practical and real. I share the same sentiments as does Terry I expect. But this is a forum and we are going to talk about what we know or express our opinions, qualified or not. I do not have a Phd in psychology but I've still evolved a practical and working understanding of things. I know Terry and I believe him to be the same. No one is always right, I accept that.

In terms of providing practical means to BKs or struggling BKs or ex-BKs, I think that is encompassed in Duty of Care. www.bkwsuwatch.com provides numerous links to organisations that can help. the latest I found is www.mind.org.uk
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Mr Green

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

another factor to consider which was how it was in my case, is that many cannot afford to go and see a shrink, I couldn't/still cannot.....I took ssri's for a year and am now off them, but I probably wouldn't be here without them

everyone tells me they hurt you but I don't regret taking them

Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:only a tiny proportion of ex-adherents that will either have the financial means or the cultural resources to go and do so.

Cost of therapy - where there is government funded health care (NHS in the UK, Medicare in Australia, most of Europe etc) a referral by a GP (your local doctor) will allow for free, or largely refundable, treatment. Most GPs will have "specialists" they are used to referring patients to. But if you know a therapist you'd like to see, ask that therapist if they know a GP who can refer you back to them. (sometimes even their receptionists can tell you that).

Organisations like St Vincent de Paul, Salvation army etc have trained and experienced counsellors free of charge, who can help directly or put you in the right direction.

You may find the perfect person first time, or you may need to shop around a bit till you feel right. (Don't avoid therapy by "shopping around" as an excuse).

And like ex-l said , it's not "as if they all have a magic wand." Don't rely on others or only one method to heal you, (that's what gets you into this state in the first place) they merely facilitate your own healing. You have to do it. Because you are a whole person, make changes in all areas of your life - be more physically active, get socially active, inform your mind differently etc (See the conversations with Enlightened under "Shocked about this page". from 23rd February on.)

Oriental approaches hold that the body affects the mind and emotions, and so treat the body.

Never underestimate the power of love, from friends and family. Time spent with loved ones, especially estranged ones, is a most powerful potion. They don't need to spout wisdom - if you can enjoy each others company, you strengthen each other.

What I am saying here is, healing is a whole of life thing, not a 1 hour session every fortnight. Professionals help those who help themselves.
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Mr Green

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

I am actually talking from experience, I had two sessions with a 'free' shrink, he was neither qualified or interested in my problems, my GP refused to re-refer.

I had one session with a private shrink who was at least interested, but couldn't afford more ... also refundable is no good if you have NO money.

Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

To Mr Green's Last

Yes, it can be difficult. There's a lot of bad practitioners out there. I think in the UK you cannot just go to any GP - is that right?

Here in OZ you can go to any GP anytime, that's why I suggested: find the therapist first, and find out from them which GP can refer you so that its subsidised. I think Social Security (by whatever marketing name it goes under) can arrange things too, though bureaucracy is tough even on a good day. Ironically, those least capable of earning the quids to afford it are the ones who need it. But ...

Making the effort is half the therapy. Recognising the inadequacy of the therapist is another sign of an awakening self assertion and of recognising what you need (the bollocks principle is a tried and true one - use it liberally).

bkti-pit

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

Hi all!

I have been away for a while and busy ... Still away but got some time today to see what is happening here.

Got shocked about this one. Of course, nothing was said. If some senior is going through a sneeze we will be asked to have special Yoga for them ... Bhog was offered everyday when Dadi Prakashamani died ... But they would not even mention Esther!
Terry wrote:Many have written in these pages, and many classes and discussions take place amongst BKs, about how Gyan can be used to elevate oneself etc etc. No reflection takes place about its potential to harm the vulnerable (after all it is "knowledge" they'd say, not mere belief).

I have an exiting BK friend currently undergoing therapy who told me that she feels her involvement with the BKs have been helpful to her but that it also got her all messed up.

May I suggest that, by BK standards, Jayanti and Janki are only "instruments" and that it is BapDada who is ultimately bearing responsibility for all the mess.

As Terry said:
any mother that can close her heart to her own baby ... such a person is no mother.

Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post12 Mar 2009

bkti-pit wrote:May I suggest that, by BK standards, Jayanti and Janki are only "instruments" and that it is BapDada who is ultimately bearing responsibility for all the mess.
Terry wrote:any mother that can close her heart to her own baby ... such a person is no mother.

The statement about the mother - that was aimed squarely at Janki, not any supposed "eternally incorporeal" mother who cannot relate to corporeal existence anyway. She (DJ) has qualities, as a human being and a yogi, but she has steeled her heart with Gyan, e.g she takes the expression of freewill by others as a betrayal, because what she understands cannot be allowed to include another's suffering for what it is. It needs to be explained away with "Gyan" "karma" and so on.

Human nature is defined as "weakness". I am saying this "shutting down" of the heart began the day she chose to put her own spiritual upliftment ahead of her child's well being. It is akin to an ancient tragedy.

We all know heart is a muscular pump. Not talking about that, it's understood. In Buddhist tradition, the term "heart" is understood and used to describe that feeling when the body/mind work together, no division. In Raja Yoga, it is taught and practiced to separate these, and detach. A fine discipline if one is at the whim of emotion, or has not developed any mental discipline. But a fast usually is followed by the feast, it is not meant to be permanent.

We are each of us responsible for what teachings we choose to follow, or even what slant we choose to put on them. Each of us is here on this forum because we know how to question, the value of it, of looking outside what is "authorised", and not to merely accept things at face value. Someone once said something like, "knowledge (or wisdom?) is not about knowing the answers, but knowing what questions to ask". This is contrary to the teachings of DJ and her cabal.
primal.logic wrote: No one joins the BKs because they are too happy to deal with life - we all became BKs because they provided a satisfying explanation for why we felt life was a pile of s**t. So the inevitable conclusion is that we were all, by degrees, dysfunctional when we became BKs.

I agree with what you said below primal, except this statement above. A bit over-generalised. It' s natural to assume others' experiences parallel one's own but it is not my experience. I'd suggest that many came for more positive reasons (I was an "explorer" and idealist).

I think if one is inherently "together", then leaving BK life is not too traumatic, you can dust yourself off and get on with life. But if one who comes to it with "a degree of dysfunction" as you say, then (usually being influenced by others to "try harder") overstays the "use-by", or "useful" date, holding on for dear life until it is painful; then the leaving, when it happens, will be bitter.

Are you still on ADHD medication? Or was that a stepping stone?
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post12 Mar 2009

I would like to pick up on the issue of mental health care but might do so in another topic. Perhaps we should address that separately. Have you had any response to your email primal? Could I suggest a follow up letter address to the trustees of the charity?

Ultimately, is it the trustees of the charity that are legally accountable not the adminstrators, despite what we know about the reality of the situation. If they do not take up your concerns, then I suspect that would be something you can take up with the charity commission. After all, the religion of mediumship, 5,000 Year Cycles, imminent Destruction and the Golden Age IS the public benefit that the Brahma Kumaris are offering the United Kingdom.
any mother that can close her heart to her own baby ... such a person is no mother.

Funny, I thought you were talking about Hansa Raval who left her own husband and child to join the BKWSO, did not she? Or we could have been talking of Puja's mother ... or a hundred other Brahma-kumaris ... I imagine in India a lot of "heartless" women use Brahma Kumarism to delete their loveless marriage (and the BKs go along with that because it suits them to have free labor around).

I have no facts to base that assumption but I can support a similar statement to the effect that women in the West have used Brahma Kumarism to delete their husband ... even evidence (names, events including social services and courts) to suggest that other Brahma Kumaris conspire in such cases breaking families, mentally destroying husbands and family wealth. I have witnessed that.

Bearing in mind that you clarified it was Dadi Janki Kripalani, Jayanti's immediate superior, I also remember (name, place, center-in-charge & time) it was the London-based Seniors Sisters (the Janki/Jayanti double act) who gave "Shrimat" for a young Brahma Kumari follower to abort her unborn child because "Destruction was close" (this in the early 1980s). So, these are the "Godly world mothers" we are talking about.

As for Janki's child? Do we know the truth? For all we know, it could have been infanticide, whether conscious or unconscious. A little too much salt in the food, not enough liquids is all it would take. I'd like to know specific facts about her family background, when she came into Gyan etc.

All I know is that it is not as the BKWSU states now.

bkti-pit

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post12 Mar 2009

I understood you were talking about Janki, Terry. My point was that above them it is BapDada's responsibility, which makes it valid to question if it really can all be backed by God.

Or, if one still wants to believe it is God, question this God's ways of taking care of his children.
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primal.logic

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post13 Mar 2009

With reference to Terry's point:
terry wrote:I'd suggest that many came for more positive reasons (I was an "explorer" and idealist).

But then you were never a "normal" BK. Remember when Dadi Janki ordered us all to shave our beards off? I remember you asking questions that annoyed her so much - because they were valid and conflicted with her views - that she just wouldn't answer you and wrote your questions off (publicly) as incoherent, i.e. she just did not have an answer. No one else argued with Seniors the way you did because they wanted to be on the inside and progress to be one of the 108. That was the dominant mind set of the 1980's in London.

But we do come back to an important point - that if someone does arrive at the BK doorstep with something going on, like ADHD or OCD, there is no means by which it can be addressed and catered for ... BECAUSE THERE IS NO DUTY OF CARE. Duty of care means to anticipate problems and cater for them so that people like Esther, and us, don't suffer or die!

There was an even more diabolical scenario being played out in Australia - before you could move into a centre, which was the wish of a lot of BKs, you had to answer a questionnaire. It asked if you suffered from depression. It was obvious that if you answered, "yes" you would be discriminated against and not allowed to move in ... which would be a major emotional calamity for a depressive. The subject of depression was never raised openly nor viewed with any empathy. I remember Charlie saying that he had never experienced depression. The implication was that he is one of the 108 and the rest were burdened with karma and there was nothing he could do about that! Raging ignorance.

In response to ex-l's question about ADHD and medication - it was neither my doctors wish nor mine to be dependent on speed to be "cured". There is an excellent new medication called Strattera that stimulates noredrenaline. However, at $400 a week, I wasn't that interested. I have done a lot of research on the subject and that knowledge has enabled me to reinvent myself and my life to the point that ADHD just doesn't exist for me any more. I could write a lot about the subject but I am hungry and I am going home for lunch!

You might be interested to know that researchers estimate that 10% of the human population has the gene that leads to ADHD (DRD4 polymorphism/7R Allele). In enlightened circles (as opposed to pharmaceutical circles $$$$), it is believed that the gene has a valid evolutionary purpose, thus it's abundance in the human population. It is referred to by some experts as the "hunter gene". But the problem is that we don't need hunters any more as our meat is all farmed and processed. You can have the gene and NOT be ADHD, it all depends on your upbringing.

Lastly, I have not heard from Jayanti. It's a good idea to contact the trustees over this one - preferably with our own lawyer.

Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post13 Mar 2009

primal.logic wrote:you were never a "normal" BK. Remember when Dadi Janki ordered us all to shave our beards off? I remember you asking questions that annoyed her so much - because they were valid and conflicted with her views - that she just wouldn't answer you and wrote your questions off (publicly) as incoherent, i.e. she just did not have an answer. No one else argued with Seniors the way you did

Such a compliment. why, thank you. When she started hassling Brothers who had beards, and they started to shave, that's when I decided to grow mine. Some visiting bros from France, had a laugh when someone asked me why I was growing a beard. In French, it sounds like you are making it grow by choice. They say you, "allow it to grow". A more primal logic than the English I'd say.
I have done a lot of research on the subject and that knowledge has enabled me to reinvent myself and my life to the point that ADHD just doesn't exist for me any more. I could write a lot about the subject but I am hungry and I am going home for lunch!

There's an excellent text book - "Healing With Whole Foods: Asian Traditions and Modern Nutrition" by Paul Pitchford. A monster of a book in size and quality (& not inexpensive) but it has an excellent section on ADD and ADHD - how to approach diet and lifestyle before resorting to medication, as well as supporting the body if medications are being used for particular conditions.

This is a serious study, with sections on many kinds of conditions, physical, mental, emotional. I highly recommend it (or I can scan and send relevant sections if anyone needs). I am glad to hear you found your way through to yourself PL. Well done.
Lastly, I have not heard from Jayanti.

The tactic of the open letter - there are some others on this site. Are copies being sent anywhere else? News agencies? Local papers? Cult watch groups? Once they go out to a number of potentially interested parties, and the CC list is on the letter, they are practically obliged to respond. It is, after all, an "open" letter, requiring an "open" reply.
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