How or why did we stick the BKWSU out for so long?

This is a serious question and not a leading question.

Given your unorthodox and non-conformist belief in what BapDada was within, what has to be said is a fairly orthodox and conformist religion ... how could you or did stick it out so long?

As to your comment, "all of this talk of low level spirits, manipulating and so on, is not true to my experience" ... could it not just be that, rather than it not existing, you awareness was just not capable of seeing or understanding it?

As you have said, I have based my initial position on what the "scriptures" of the BKWSU say (although, fair enough, expressed in a different language and doubting the absolute divinity of the spirit entity). I look forward to the day we read your master thesis of what it, the soul and consciousness is in reality.

... how could you or did stick it out so long?

I asked myself that question many times. I have also written this into some earlier posts here.

I think I identified as a BK twice as long as I should have. Essentially, I could not admit I was so wrong, I had to keep justifying and rationalising to myself in various ways. The ego is involved, my sense of who i am - I identified that way for so long -so until it hurts too much, you hang on. It took a few more years after that to realise there are ways to "see" what you need to do a bit earlier than what the ego will recognise. I now understand that ego needs a truth, belief system or framework to work with, and is loathe to dispose of what served it the past. I now listen closer to my inner instincts, the wisdom in my dreams, the feelings in my body, and my commonsense, along with rationality, logic and scepticism - the mind/body that is "heart".

As to your comment, "all of this talk of low level spirits, manipulating and so on, is not true to my experience" ... could it not just be that, rather than it not existing, you awareness was just not capable of seeing or understanding it?

- that is possible. Anything anyone ever does is their choice, no matter even if it was not what they "should" be doing. Even Gulzar willingly allows herself to be used, and prepares for that - no one is "taken". We just believe the story we want to believe, in the way we want to believe it. I'd be interested to hear anyone's experience where someone did something other than by their own choice, or their own unconscious impulses (and anyone who says - I don't know how I got there, or there was a 'touching" - is kidding themselves).

Whatever or wherever an impulse or signal comes from, within or without, we choose whether to act on/follow it, or not. There are straight out crooks and shysters everywhere, and there are those who are sincere if misguided. But it is we who choose who we may allow ourselves to be influenced by, and who we will reject regardless.

I think I identified as a BK twice as long as I should have. Essentially, I could not admit I was so wrong, I had to keep justifying and rationalising to myself in various ways. The ego is involved, my sense of who I am - I identified that way for so long - so until it hurts too much, you hang on.

In my own case, I left much sooner but I agree, I hung on twice as long as I should. Did I really ever believe in the 5,000 Year Cycle!?! I doubt it. I suspect I was just "entranced like a gopi" performing the mad dance around the Seniors and middle management in order to be loved and accepted. That is to say, having usurped * all my other social structures and connections (friends, family, community, residence), I was really just mentally trapped by social conventions (and "punishment/rewards systems") on one hand, and basic human fraility/attachment on the other. This is why I encourage individuals to read up on all the discussion around 'The Stockholm Syndrome' and decide for themselves.

In many ways, my leaving was much simpler. I found myself trapped socially by all the structures, especially being dependent on living in BK houses. I see not what a good tool those are in trapping individuals and engaging them in 'the great dance'. Part of this was due to my own moral code. Like you say, we are responsible for much of what we do and are often trapped by who we ourselves are ... but that is "being human".

Personally, I was not going to break the principles if still taking "shelter in the sanga" but as soon as I was able to find my own place to live, that was the end. I was out. It felt great to be free of all the pressures (conforming, being watched and being policed) and be able to pick my own surroundings. I remember being able just to go into the center of the city I lived for the first time to do nothing much, eat new things *and* when I needed to ... it was a bit like being new born again.

Actually, thinking about it, not having a telephone afterwards was probably the best thing I did (although did not do so deliberately) ... no phone calls asking me to come and do service! So, I guess not my advice to exiting-BKs would be, get a new email and a new telephone number ... and if any BKs come to your door, answer it dressed only in a towel or dressing gown and invite them to talk about things in your bedroom or something.

I use "usurp" because I think that is what the BKWSU does. I strongly disagree with "anything anyone ever does is one's choice" ... does that include one birth ... one's genes ... one's childhood conditioning ... every thread in our sub-consciousness that a skillful player can pick up and pull on. You could only argue those IF you then went on to accept reincarnation.

usurp

1. To seize and hold (the power or rights of another, for example) by force and without legal authority.
2. To take over or occupy without right: usurp a neighbor's land.
3. To seize another's place, authority, or possession wrongfully.

I strongly disagree with "anything anyone ever does is one's choice" ... does that include one birth ... one's genes ... one's childhood conditioning ...

Thanks for sharing a bit more about your experience. The 'bhavan" or "sanga' life appeals to the communalist ideal. It can be appreciated politically, ecologically, economically, but yes, it then has that problem of creating dependency.

As for the sentence quoted above - I think it could be said that birth, inherent genes & conditioning are things done to you or happen to you, you do not do them, so yes, I can still say (and I will qualify it - anything we do we choose to do, including the basics of being alive - breathing, eating, *hitting, sleeping - which are almost unconscious - but we can affect the way we do them.