The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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celtiggyan

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The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post16 May 2006

This is a definate no-no topic for BKs and so this is why I raise it. After all Shiva is channeled through a medium of Dadi Gulzar. In the early years Shiva was channeled through Brahma Baba though there was no trance state and he remembered everything (unlike the present day where Dadi needs to be read the Murli).

I was told by the Sisters that those that channel would draw evil Souls towards them. In fact we can see TV shows with a studio audience 'Yes your Uncle is here and he says his back is much better now' etc etc.

In Science we call such things 'Cold reading', i.e. it is a trick using feedback from the audience and simple psychology. A few people in the Skeptics Society can do this. However we must assume that not all channeling is a trick and so who are they talking with?

The BKs say that all souls take re-birth except a few vicious Souls who stay until the end of The Cycle on earth (due to their bad Karma no mother can host them!). What's happening? Also why do some need to be in trance and others not? It seems in modern days the trance thing has gone out of fashion as has the dark room!

C.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post16 May 2006

celtiggyan wrote:It seems in modern days the trance thing has gone out of fashion as has the dark room!

I would like to discuss this but what is happening in BK World now?

Jayanti used to put on a very interesting show of popping / being sucked out of her body completely and then coming back with a special message every Thursday morning. They say there was other " trance messengers " in India but I never saw any. They call it a bog awful name that used to put me off the food ; Bhog. Where I come from Bhog sounds like something you do after too many beers as you look for Huey down the toilet.

It was always a little bit of a disappointment when Sudesh would sit in for Jayanti because you knew that Sudesh was just meditating and then making something up. Junior Sisters at local centres used to copy her to do their special Thursday morning breakfast offering.

I was never quite sure why Thursday, was it because it was Thursday was the day of Jupiter and considered auspicious?

On the basis of a small amount of direct involvement in spiritualism, there was no doubt in my mind that something was happening for real with Jayanti. I have seen similar effects with non-BK channellers and read of similar with certain sanyasi types in India, though never witnessed it. Indeed one of the practises of the sanyasis is to be able to leave one's body at precisely the right time.

I do not believe in the existence of Skeptics. If Skeptics did not exist they would just invent them to keep stupid people confused and controllable. Indeed, there is no reproducible evidence to suggest that Skeptics ever existed and even if there was evidence, it would not count due to some arcane law I cant tell you about ;-) [ Thank you James Randi ]
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celtiggyan

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post16 May 2006

I had heard about the early days when a few Sisters used to channel Shiva. However directions came from above to say that only Dadi would do it and others were forbidden. Skeptics - well it's just simple psychology, you can replicate some of the things but this does not imply that there is not a genuine phenomena.

My question was - who are the 'others' channeling ie non BKs? If there are no Souls around other than viscious Souls (according to the BKs) then what is left? Of course if the 'ether' is swimming with Souls then the BKs must be wrong. We cannot have it both ways. I saw a channeler on TV once and (assuming it wasn't a trick) he was convincing and could even channel animal Souls!

There are also those who claim to channel 'Ascended Masters' - what are they? It seems either a lot of people are mistaken or teh BK knowledge is at best un-complete! I talked to a Sister once who said that she knew of these 'Masters' but that they always wanted something in return ie if you were not loyal to them they coudl get nasty! Baba is not like that.

G.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post17 May 2006

celtiggyan wrote:Of course if the 'ether' is swimming with Souls then the BKs must be wrong. We cannot have it both ways.

Again, it is an area of spiritual knowledge where the BKs are very weak. What happens when one dies? Do they say where does the soul go ... or does it shoot off straight into another body?

I remember being told by Sisters that the BKs did not believe that the soul enters the foetus until about 3 months or so - but that was not specific doctrinal knowledge. [ I wonder what the heck the BKs talked about for 20 years having a living " God " at their beck and call, were there no interested and interesting brains amongst them!?! ].

More later ...
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celtiggyan

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post17 May 2006

Yes I heard it was 3 months when the Soul entered the body - no dilly-dallying - straight in! Except when about 7 years ago a Dadi died. I heard that she spent a short time with Brahma Baba in the Subtle Regions before taking re-birth. To them there is no mystery - it's just straight from a body into the womb except in very special cases where the Karma is so bad or there is a shortage of wombs. (as in a disaster).

G.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post17 May 2006

celtiggyan wrote:... except in very special cases where the Karma is so bad or there is a shortage of wombs. (as in a disaster).

So where do they say spooks hang out in those cases? There must be a somewhere.

Actually, you could probably do the mathematics on such a situation to prove or disprove the rebirth theory. So how do they account for all the traditions of psychics, spiritualism, trance mediums, the works of active mystics such as Emmanuel Swedenborg before any Subtle Region existed, meetings with Angels and the likes? Where do they say folks are headed off to when they have near death experiences [ NDE ] and who are they " met " by?

What is the mechanism by which souls to evil to re-incarnate are stopped and if Hitler and Stalin and your 10,000s of child sex abusers were allowed to incarnate, how evil do you have to be!?!

To me it reads as if they don't know and they are just apply simplistic band aid responses to shut any honest inquiry up. If you actually develop this kind of logic in their presence, all you get told is " Remember Baba ... spin The Cycle " or belittled for being into Bhakti.
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celtiggyan

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post17 May 2006

They don't believe there are other souls 'out there' other than viscious ones. They told me that the viscious ones will tell you anything (that they are your Aunt!) to get access to a body. They come in by invitation and that is why they forbit such practices. Once they arrive they have the Karmic right to stay (ie a possession). I heard the BKs have a special meditation to get rid of them but it is tricky since they can jump into another body during meditation!

They would simply say that all those other people are mistaken. They are not great believers in out of the body experiences - they say that when your Soul leaves you're dead! How bad do you need to be? Well I have heard that Karma is a tangled web and that even Hitler may have been a new Soul. This is because new Souls use what is available at the time to succeed. In the Iron age the new Souls are a different level to the Copper Age and Silver Age etc as you would expect. I wonder if it was Hitler's Karma though?

If I tell you to kill somebody and you do it you are guilty under the law but in Karmic terms that person has a choice and the people chose to follow Hitler's orders rather than the alternative. So how many people did Hitler really kill by himself in WW2? I doubt he killed anybody directly. though his thoughts would have been viscious. What about the man who pressed the button that dropped the A bomb on Japan? We tend to think he was an OK sort of guy doing us all a favour but karmically??

G.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post04 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:On the basis of the Advanced Knowledge given by Father Shiv through Shankar, we believe that the soul of Dada Lekhraj (alias Brahma Baba) is not in the Subtle Region but is playing a role through his subtle body in this world itself by entering into aloukik Brahmins. He enters into the body of Shankar to obtain Advanced Knowledge and is depicted on the forehead of Shankar as a half moon.

Shankar being Veerendra Dev Dixit or the body thereof? Or Shankar being some subtle body / subtle state ?

It is interesting because what you are saying is that Dada Lekhraj / Brahma Baba is *not* in the Subtle Regions - and so therefore he must be somewhere else. As per the Advanced Knowledge, you state that he is still attached to the material world and so still roaming as a disencarnate spirit.

I have no argument against this. Its fits within other metaphysical traditions. It could be said that Dada Lekhraj / Brahma Baba is still a very high soul and reach a higher spiritual state of consciousness than most human beings, that he is a " Master ". There are many documented encounters with such Masters throughout history in all faiths.

Does there exist within the PBK tradition a " spirit world " or worlds as believed by mystics, spiritualists and their followers throughout history? (A place where souls go after death for rest and education before re-incarnating? [ My position is that despite what the BKWSU might say, or ignore, there would have to be ]. The Bardo, Hades, Valhalla ...). I appreciate that there might actually be no merit in exploring such topics, really I am just testing out the Advanced Knowledge to see what its bounds are.

This phenomenon of Brahma entering into the bodies of Alokik Brahmins I would actually also agree with. Whilst teaching Raja Yoga meditation, and giving Dhristi, as we were taught to do, students would sometimes comment on the teacher's face changing and taking on the features of an old man or some Hindu deity. Visible but not in the physical, in the subtle.

At other times, many BKs and ex-BKs comment on feeling that their heads or bodies being moved by a subtle force and of experiencing " touchings " to do one thing or another. Obviously, some of these might be wishful thinking but others I consider genuine. It would be good if we could document the PBK understanding of terminology and issues along side the lokik and BK ones on the Wiki ;

http://wiki.brahmakumaris.info

Not to contradict but just to compare side by side.
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pbktrinityshiva

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post11 Jun 2006

Hi ex-l,
ex-l wrote:Shankar being Veerendra Dev Dixit or the body thereof?
Or Shankar being some subtle body / subtle state ?

As far as i understand Shankar referring in this case to the body of Baba(Veerendra Dev Dixit). Once he enters he can obtain the Advanced Knowledge or can move all over entering into Alokik Brahmins.
ex-l wrote:It is interesting because what you are saying is that Dada Lekhraj / Brahma Baba is *not* in the Subtle Regions - and so therefore he must be somewhere else. As per the Advanced Knowledge, you state that he is still attached to the material world and as still roaming as a disincarnate spirit.

Good you brought this up actually because it’s something that I find interesting. I guess it depends how we define the Subtle Regions. As per my understanding there is that subtle dimension over the top of the physical one. Whether it merely exists on an intellectual level or what I am not so sure.

Interesting however that is in the Trinity of Christianity which you would be aware of the Holy Spirit is also known as the Holy Ghost. Isn’t that interesting when tallied with Brahma Baba's (Lekhraj Kirpalani) current role in the drama?

Sounds exactly like Dada Lekraj Brahma in his Avyakt (Unmanifest) form with Krishna being so closely linked with Christ. Most Christians don’t believe that the Holy Spirit as a person of course and they also incorporate Jesus Christ as Son etc. It’s easy to see though how the Christian Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit have some similarities/roots within the Trimurti of Brahma Vishnu Shankar.
ex-l wrote:Does there exist within the PBK tradition a " spirit world " or worlds as believed by mystics, spiritualists and their followers throughout history?
A place where souls go after death for rest and education before re-incarnating? [ My position is that despite what the BKWSU might say, or ignore, there would have to be ]. The Bardo, Hades, Valhalla ...

As far as I am aware all these traditions would be referring to this same 'spirit world' all with their own particular interpretations but essentially one would assume there would be an overlapping between the traditions. As this time is the foundation of the world cycle of 5000 years it seems fitting that the begginings of all these traditions would all be laid in some way.
ex-l wrote:This phenomenon of Brahma entering into the bodies of Alokik Brahmins I would actually also agree with. Whilst teaching Raja Yoga meditation, and giving Dhristi, as we were taught to do, students would sometimes comment on the teacher's face changing and taking on the features of an old man or some Hindu deity. Visible but not in the physical, in the subtle.

At other times, many BKs and ex-BKs comment on feeling that their heads or bodies being moved by a subtle force and of experiencing " touchings " to do one thing or another. Obviously some of these might be wishful thinking but others I consider genuine.

Baba (Veerendra Dev Dixit) has said that there are many disembodied souls roaming at this time and they will try to enter into bodies of souls (possession) to satisfy their desires but they need a physical vehicle to do this. I personally have had an evil soul try to enter me when I was having an afternoon rest but I remembered ShivBaba and the soul was forced to flee.

As you have said however there are good souls which can enter and give help which would tally with the experiences you are outlining. I have also heard of people having visions of Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) though ShivBaba (Shiv + corporeal body of Veerendra Dev Dixit).

I hope this answers the question to some extent however these are just my churnings.

Om Shanti!
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aimée

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post11 Jun 2006

The BK souls that have left the body, must be now in the inspiration group of the Advance Party, those who inspire and give a boost to the old and tired embodied PBKs. They also learn the Advanced Knowledge, and are supposed to be the first children of the Golden Age.

I think that it is just now in the Confluence Age that such thing happens, and the rest of the time, the souls who have not incarnated in a baby's body, are the ones who left an unfinished business, or have done something so bad, or something so bad happens, that they cannot let go of their last life, they would become ghosts.

Some also say that in our sleep we act as angels and do service in any part of the world. this is quite a fascinating idea. But, theoretically, if the soul leaves the body, it should not be able to survive ... I wonder what Baba would say about this.
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arjun

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post12 Jun 2006

Dear ex-l,
Ex- wrote:Does there exist within the PBK tradition a " spirit world " or worlds as believed by mystics, spiritualists and their followers throughout history? A place where souls go after death for rest and education before re-incarnating? [ My position is that despite what the BKWSU might say, or ignore, there would have to be ]. The Bardo, Hades, Valhalla ...

Our friends PBK Trinity Shiva and PBK Aimee have answered you question to a great extent.

But as regards souls going to a place for rest after death is concerned, I don't think there is any such place. In India it is generally believed that any soul which leaves the body enters into another body within 13 days. Except of course the situations enumerated by Sister Aimee. But even such souls would also have to ultimately take rebirth somewhere, sometime. But once a soul has descended from the Soul World, be it any point of time in the 5000 years cycle, it cannot return in between until all the souls have descended on this Earth by the end of the 5000 years old drama.
aimee wrote:Some also say that in our sleep we act as angels and do service in any part of the world. this is quite a fascinating idea. But, theoretically, if the soul leaves the body, it should not be able to survive ... I wonder what Baba would say about this.

As far as I have heard Baba has said that we enter into others through our mind and intellect. It may mean that we contol the mind and intellect of the soul whose body we wish to use. I don't think that a soul physically leaves one body and enters into another while the first body is still alive before and after its return from the second body. Baba generally gives the example of the founder of Sanyas religion Shankaracharya whose soul entered into the body of a dead king to bring him back to life and experience the life of a household, which was one of the condition laid by a woman scholar to have a debate on Indian religious scriptures.

However, it would be good to seek Baba's clarification in this regard. I would intimate you whenever I receive a reply from Baba in this regard.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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aimée

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism, Channeling & Psychicism

Post12 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:Baba generally gives the example of the founder of Sanyas religion Shankaracharya whose soul entered into the body of a dead king to bring him back to life and experience the life of a household, which was one of the condition laid by a woman scholar to have a debate on Indian religious scriptures.

Could you explain a bit further? This seems rather interesting but I don't know the story and don't entirely see what you mean. Would he then have to leave his own body?
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arjun

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Shankaracharya

Post13 Jun 2006

Sister Aimee,

Omshanti. I am not an expert at quoting the Hindu scriptures, but from whatever little I remember from reading a book on Shankaracharya, I recollect that Shankaracharya had gained mastery over all the Hindu scriptures at an early age and while on an all India tour, he defeated most of the contemporary established Hindu scholars. When he defeated one such great scholar, the wife of the defeated scholar, who was also a scholar in her own right, challenged Shankaracharya to enter into a debate with her on some scriptures. I do not know the name of the scripture, but it had something to do with the experience of the household life (like the Kamasutra). She was confident of her victory since Shankaracharya was an unmarried man. But Shankaracharya sought a few days time to answer her questions on such scriptures.

Then he went into a cave and asked his disciples to look after his body while his soul entered into the body of a dead king to bring him back to life and he thus experienced the household life with his queen. When the soul of Shankaracharya returned to its original body, he successfully entered into a debate with the woman scholar and defeated her also.

I will try to search for the exact story on the Google and let you know if the story that I have told is correct or not. But even if we can get hold of the actual story, its accuracy would still be doubtful since it has been more than 1400 years since Shankarachary lived. And there is every possibility of an element of mythology creeping into such stories.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun
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clay

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Post13 Jun 2006

Om Shanti Arjunbhai,

On many occasions you say you will personally check out with Baba answers to questions, this is of course extremely useful to the BK and ex-BK readers on this site, and for various reasons to some PBKs as well. However, I would just like to mention to those who are not PBKs and for the avoidance of doubt, that all PBKs are able to ask questions directly to Baba. In fact this is one of the ways PBKs build up a relationship with Baba. The point is they do not have to go through a third party unless they choose to do so.

I am sure Arjun Bhai would agree that part of our role as PBKs is to reveal the Father and encourage those who have recognised Baba to maintain those personal links with him. So this post is just to clarify that it is not just those who have been in Gyan a long time who have access to Baba. He treats his children with equal importance.

It really good Arjun having all the daily points, what a feast of Gyan, and so beautifully organised.

Good Wishes

Clay
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pbktrinityshiva

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Post13 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:But as regards souls going to a place for rest after death is concerned, I don't think there is any such place. In India it is generally believed that any soul which leaves the body enters into another body within 13 days.

I am interested to hear what Baba has to say on this particular point. As it is something that I have been unclear on for some time.
Om Shanti
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