The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

if Shiv Baba doesn't exist, then he would be the result of 900,000 and + people regular visualization. He would be destroyable, but pretty much real or close to be, in the collective unconscious. He would have the same effect as the real one, but, very limited action range, due to the limited point of view of the visualizers. Is this whole lot really ready to accept an all-loving and totally unlimited God with all that it implies? Doubt so! But they still define him and visualize him as such, so that He could alter everything surrounding them, because they want him to. They don't want to be wrong, so there has to be a result for all this meditating.

While recognizing the power of group action and thought, I think we can acknowledge that the present age it is machines made of steel and powered by petroleum that are remaking the earth in their image. Tanks and bulldozers tend to win over people praying (unless those people have a ready supply of high explosive and knowledge -- originally developed during the Manhattan Project -- to make shaped charges. )

I have just finished reading The Psychology of War by Lawrence LeShan. He talks about how human experience life as multiple inconsistent realities, among which they transition smoothly according to context. I hope to write up a more in depth review. Okay, you can read him directly here: Lawrence LeShan.

I have just finished reading The Psychology of War by Lawrence LeShan. He talks about how human experience life as multiple inconsistent realities, among which they transition smoothly according to context. I hope to write up a more in depth review. Okay, you can read him directly here: Lawrence LeShan.

That is a great text, really. I particularly love the comparison between peacetime and wartime. Now that I've read it, and compared it to my posts, I see that there's a lot of "they" in my phrases ... .

On the other side, if I try to understand the BK point of view, it looks a lot like wartime. "Time is limited, children have to become pure and not everybody will make it to Golden Age, you have to become the conquerors of Maya" and so on ... Becoming a lotus in a puddle of mud is not exactly everyday business.

On the other side, if I try to understand the BK point of view, it looks a lot like wartime.

For the early BKs time was a warzone. There world was the small inward looking caste and the children and many of the women, the world was their families alone. Their world was a war and being torn to pieces in the conflict between Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Panchyat, and soon after that came Indian War of Independence, WWII and Partition. All deeply traumatic.

None of which should be excluded from the psychological equation of the movement's creation. How much of it is one big projection of that trauma we wont know until 2036 ... or the re-writing once again of the prediction of Destruction.

I shake my head at the thought that I, in my time, was "acting out" their mental patterns and conditioning like a little puppet monkey. I advise others not to do so. All the senior BKs and most of the Indians and middle management need to go into therapy and not be allowed out and to lead others until they are made better.

In many way, part of the BKs confrontation with and reluctant, sideways adoption of Western values and mannerisms, and the like of us, is that therapy for them ... hence all the projection onto us of "defamation", "aggression", "evil" and so on in the meanwhile.

But they are still mucking about with ghosts and spirits and those spirits appear to me chamelon-like and dishonest in their fluid accrescence of worldly reference points used to achieve whatever their aim is.

Thanks ex-l.

I used to be an Ascended Master enthusiast, before and after my BK days, but as I see it now faith in their teachings is sorta like changing the bed sheets on the Titanic. What I mean is I put all my eggs in the BKWSU basket and that turned out to have holes in it. The AM’s teachings as with most, if not all spiritually channeled teachings, have the same holes. The theories cannot be proven.

Is Saint Germain talking to me or is my mind’s creation of St. G. Was and is there really a Saint Germain (as is told by AM enthusiast) or was he a creation of a cult movement. At one point before joining the BK’s I had decided the thing for me to do was go to Virgina or Navada, or where ever it was where I read they had the little St. G. Community. At that point I didn’t even consider that St. G could be just a creation or team mascot for a group and leader who wanted to create a better world. A world where they’re ideas are right. Where they’re way of living life was the best. Where they owned God and God only talked to them. Sound familiar?

Sorry to be so blunt, and I’m not saying the AM movement, or any movement for that matter is a crock, but consider why faith in a religion or spiritual philosophy can truly be like sailing on the Titanic. We get on, you have full faith in the absolute unshakable security the philosophy gives us, and then, in the middle of the ocean, it sinks. Not to mention there are not enough life boats for everyone.

Instead of the Titanic one could have placed there lively hood in a much less propaganda orientated means of transport, one with a proven track record. Again I am talking about logic and personal discretion based on real physical evidence here. Sure it may not be as pretty and comfortable but it is the best we can do at this point in history.

The primary need of the human animal is security-survival (my understanding). From this need stems the need for approval, love, and control. The world can be an extremely unforgiving place, even in times of relative peace. How far will a person, or group of people go to have and own true security? Will they create a concept of God and reality with the most imaginative, creative and brilliant aspects of their minds. Will they do this unconsciously and then believe it so whole heartedly that they could pass lie detector tests and even manipulate physical matter with the amount of emotional energy they generate? Sure.

I grew up in an extremely insecure environment. I think most people in the world can relate to a greater or lesser degree. A recent profound personal insight I had was that my own insecurity was the unconscious driving force that drove me, night and day, to find the truth, for in truth is security.

Truth is in the eyes of the beholder. So if you have had some extraordinary conscious exploding experience, please, have faith in your self and your experiences and truly understand, follow and scientifically dissect the validity of your experience. This is how I now see my own near death experience, but even though with all its fantastic spiritual special effects I still question it, for like joel’s link talked about, experience is also flawed.

"No one in the world can alter truth. All we can do is seek it and live it." - St. Maximilian Maria Kolbe.

Truth is in the eyes of the beholder.

Hey Neo

I think you've hit the nail spot on top of its head. Truth is certainly in the eye of the beholder as is beauty too.

I'd like to say though that in many cases, some people may be so desperate to find the truth that they'll do anything in order to do so. It seems to me that as a human bean walking this earth plane, that we've been taught (in the past ...) that the truth is this and that, etc, etc and the truth to be 'in a certain place or particular teaching' and so we run around searching and searching and certainly whilst we discover elements of 'truth' we do not seem to be able to discover the whole 'truth' - as it does not exist.

Surely, 'Truth' is 'ones own path' - that what makes one happy and fulfilled and growing spiritually. I am not sure if there's anything scientific in that process?

What I personally appreciate about (SOME) of the Ascended Master teachings is that one is given a choice within that teaching (or channeling) to accept what works for one, and reject the rest. The AMs I've been with certainly say that, and I can see that all they do is try plant a seed of inspiration or thought and then we can take it from there, when we're ready; even during question time they've been open to all sorts of ideals but handle their answer, generally with humour and a touch of irony at times, on a fully interactive and conscious level of connection as equals, not expecting me to sit at their feet gaping in awe- struck shock as they wonder around me staring ... (some may remember that on certain Madhuban walk-about experiences).

My point here is that, as you say, we're all wanting the truth but surely its a completely internalised journey/process, a soul/the light or work with the energy inside experience?

Perhaps thats why there's a few 'disenchanted' people on this forum? After all, each one of us found the truth did not we? For a while anyway. And then the realisation set in that maybe, just perhaps we hadn't actually, we just believed what we were told, hook, toli and sinker ... (I am trying to say this in context OK?).

Then when we discovered that perhaps there was an element of untruth in it, we ducked. Sayonara Babes! Outta there. Ciao Bella.

Good for us, at least we recognised we were being lied to (or deceived even). (I mean no-one is going to do that to me are they? I won't allow that would I?)

But what was left for us after that? After we left (and I sense that those who are still trying/planning to leave are also battling with this question) --- we had to then realise that we still had to work on ourselves and we still had to find our 'truth' did not we? and thats really hard work and takes an immense amount of courage too. It's tough having to re-start a whole life when you had it all panned out in your head and heart. Were we not told over and over, that G-d wuld take care of you through everything, therefore there's no more reason to think or feel anything else, even stop searching.

I mean, if one no longer has 'G-d' in person in your life, then one has nothing, which the BK teachings highlight endlessly. And we're all exhausted from trying and 'making effort' [i](to coin an old phrase ...)[i/] to find and live with the 'truth' - sometime its easier just to stick with something one knows (and maybe not even happy with) than even admit that one has to do something else in order to be happy, i.e find the 'truth'.

I feel we'll never find the 'truth' as long as we live - at least until we move away from the deep belief system that tells us over and over again to search and search instead of simply being the 'truth' - (be happy - be loving) as we know it and as we understand it, and from this point one will grow spiritually. As long as we continue to search, there'll be someone telling us what the truth is, for sure.

In my personal opinion there's nothing to find, only to discover. And thats what makes it so wonderful ~ despite having ones off days ~ our habits then become the truth we've been searching for ...

Just some of my own thoughts I am sharing ...
In light
P xx

One thing I have noticed is a kind of "upwardly mobileness" in the Spirit World.

Whereas in the old days, it used to be enuogh for someone to have a "guide" who was generally a romantic character like a 'Red Indian', 'Ancient Monk' or 'Wise Chinaman'; now they have to be an "Ascended Master". Often the same "Ascended Master".

So it may be that St Germaine is setting up franchises for other spirits to do his work for him.

I just take them as other human beings, with experience and an opinion, no more or less wise than anyone else. The more common element with spirit guides and their mediums is that they are tricky and unreliable. They can put on a good show, offer solace to the disheartened like a grandmother might and often, like astrology chart reading, crack through some psychological barrier than therapists would neve get anywhere near, but they need to be treated with great caution and care.

Mostly because of the addictive nature of interaction with them, see Joe Fisher's book "Hungry Ghosts". I'd like to be wrong but I cant say that I have ever been left feeling things were 100% with the process. Mediums seem to tap into human neediness and dependency.

Incidentally, there is not a lot of evidence that Indians, Monks or Chinaman were particulary wise of coped well with adopting to the modern world. Society would be better of learning skills or a trade and doing basic charity. I wish it was not true but that it my strong impression to date ... like lawyers, spiritualists profit out of other people's misery and insecurity. How to fix that?

Hi everybody, and thank you ex-l for mentioning Fisher's book on "Hungry Ghosts" (BTW, it's the third time I try to write this mail and it disappears whist I try to paste!!).

I read something about it on Amazon and copied somelines for all of you to read on this post. I realize how the BKs are very light and superficial about channelling. Even people like me, that would keep clear from mediums & co, were tricked into thinking that, "this is totally different from anywhere else ... harmless ... in fact beneficial because it's God". So we really grew accustomed to thinking it was safe, cool and acceptable. (Although not quite understandable, nor proofable!!").

So, are we or have we been a bunch of credulous fools, or what?! When does the "being played around with like kittens to a piece of string being dangled from some psychic realm just above us." - like ex-l expressively said on the God topic - start? In the mythomanic belief that we are elect children?

"Particularly instructive is Fisher’s account of how a Montreal-based yogic group headed by Swami Vishnu Devananda was nearly destroyed in 1977-79 when a group member began to channel an entity who identified himself as the group's revered founder, Sri Swami Sivananda (1987-1963).

Even though Sivananda's own writings had explicitly warned against channeling, Vishnu became convinced that the communicating entity was indeed the beloved departed guru, convinced by the speaker’s (if you'll pardon the expression) dead-on phrasing, intonation, use of Sanskrit, apparent clairvoyance, apparent healing powers, etc.

Soon the group was meeting nightly to receive the master's wisdom. The results were regrettably typical: "With protracted deviousness, the invisible presence deluded its audience into believing that they were the chosen Children of Light. Dire global predictions were made and, ultimately, the group was surged to stockpile food and weapons in readiness of the advancing breakdown in social order." Vishnu belatedly realized that the group was being manipulated by a clever and malevolent imposter, but many group members refused to accept this.

But if you’re still sure it can’t happen to you, then you can afford to skip this book."

Does it sound somewhat familiar?

Does it sound somewhat familiar?

Yeah ... let's start buying guns! (No food in case we start over-eating ...). reading over the message, do we know if that was BapDada on one of his 355 days of the year off?

I had forgotten that particular quote. But, if anyone is in any doubt of how close to the bone this is ... have a look on the Wikipedia article discussion because the BKs are going to eradicate all mention of channelling and possession if they can.

Good work green108 for standing his ground on this issue. Really, what else did happen to Lekhraj Kirpalani? OK, it might or might not be the Supreme amonst Souls ... but the mechanics are the same, are they not?

Yeah ... let's start buying guns! (No food in case we start over-eating ...). reading over the message, do we know if that was BapDada on one of his 355 days of the year off? I had forgotten that particular quote. But, if anyone is in any doubt of how close to the bone this is ... have a look on the Wikipedia article discussion because the BKs are going to eradicate all mention of channelling and possession if they can.

"So what if the source was a channel? They are only teaching people the truth, their identity as souls rather than bodies."

BTW, what is different from channeling than me writing? Am I representing myself, or is some enlightened crystalline cotton-candy energy channeling through me? Many bags of potato chips have channelled me, focusing my entire being into the rapid devastating destruction of potatos fried in oil. My Father sometimes starts at the shrill and extreme libertarian spirits that manage to channel their nonsense through my diverted senses.

"Craziness is just logical thinking followed to extremes" someone said, or I made up just now (this morning actually), so I channeled that.

The problem with wise sayings is that wisdom seems incapable of bringing power to heel in the statistical aggregate that is human society. The young hotheads disregard the cautionary words of the elderly and the battlescarred. The elephant seals that fight and mate in Santa Cruz, California don't eat while they are visiting. The guys have to fight for territory, coming too early in the season and you can get a spot, but you'll be exhausted of strength to fight, depleted in their own supplies of fat.

Conflict among humans.

I am just gushing out what should be a second article, not having finished the first. But this war thing. I spent two days convincing a friend of mine of my view of the ineluctable power escalation of the military industrial complex. I converted him completely. According to him, the idea that finally tipped him was that the people controlling government, their wealth and power is continuing to increase, so that they have wound everything up to their advantage, all the levers of power are in their hands. Why would they walk away?

Is there any sign that they would want to voluntarily relinquish what they have so devoted themselves to acquire? Wealth and power flows to them in war. War is the massive unlimited exploitation of resources. It is like a fire. The power and wealth that accrues through war is an impossibly seductive trigger to individuals who have devoted their entire lives to building privilege and power.

The original Crusades are considered triumphs of stupidity. But the equation is the same, war for fame, money, land, resources, power.

War, to me is chemical (and nuclear!) energies channeling themselves through humankind. We are pathetic Matrix nervous systems that instinctually bond to tools, to knowlege, to craft. Giving our all to produce the fossil-fuel nuke conflagration that, appears to have increased the surface temperature of the Atlantic ocean, having doubled the average annual Atlantic hurricane and tropical storm counts over the past 100 years.

The person who "channeled" the bridge in Michigan obviously failed to do so. Belonging to companies, we channel corporate entities of dubious motivations. So many willing workers at Monsanto, where the possibilities of DNA manipulation (both recombinant and by controlling agribusiness seed stocks) not only the actual achievements but also the ability of future promise to attract bigger and bigger and bigger money.

Yet none of those commercializing it and probably no one in the entire company understands the implications of the novelty. Novelty means uncertainty. Yet the arrogance is driven by promise. And we are subjected to the arrogance of the drug companies, the ag companies, virtually everyone until there is a tragedy and a scandal, a temporary watchfulness before another cycle of "stupidity".

The problem with all the political commentators who deride stupidity and duplicity of the opposing side, it is not about being stupid. Everything is based on opportunity, resources, domination, just like the elephant seals fighting on the beach. Fighting for what matters more than anything else, or anyone else in the world.

Government exists to put an acceptable face on the unacceptable, the preordained outcome presented as choice.

Government is channeled by the energy that wants to rupture through its activation limits, discharging itself into chemical relaxation, completely careless of its target, whether a bulldozer crushing a person in a home or a cluster "bomblet" awaiting a moment of acceleration to explosively lash out shrapnel. Somehow the "energy" has channeled people into creating and using these ruthless weapons.

Coming back to our once Beloved Baba and now sex-anorexic Lehkraj Kirplani's wiki article topic of possession and spirits, I once opposed the emphasis on channeling in the first paragraph on that article. I have since come further.

Offering a person to be elite, and promising that God will take responsibility for him or her is not a healthy basis for spirituality. Even soul consciousness is only a healthy basis for spirituality according to the people who believe in it. All this stuff is typical of apparent spirits that acquire shamanistic authority as arbiters of truth and wisdom.

Wooh, that some pretty weird sh&t I've been channeling.

Joel, Ex-I, Neo, Aladdin, Paulkershaw,

Awesome posts. I am blown and reading through.

From what I understand, joel, what you're saying is what differenciates creativity and channeling? Well, I would say the number of sold copies and your position on the billboard ... Or how much the customers are willing to let their ordinary and boring lives to get into your fantasy world. That is also called channeling. Look at Star Trek, or the Lord of the Rings: I know people who have learned Elfen or Klingon or else ... They feel like they are the chosen ones too ...

On a lighter note: DND NERDS GET OWNED BY COPS.

He must have been the chosen one. I am glad I did not turn out that way.

I divine that what you are saying is what is the difference between channelling and automatic writing?

Automatic writing ... was that not how Lekhraj Kirpalani started? Was that how the early Murlis were delivered? It is certainy used by those teaching the development of what are called psychic skills.

Well, the little boys at wiki have got green 108 a temporary ban and are now about to remove the content of the talk page including the beautifully worded piece demonstrating the truth about BKWSU being involved in channelling and mediumship ...

So, if you want to read it, I suggest you do today .

Well, the little boys at wiki have got green 108 a temporary ban and are now about to remove the content of the talk page including the beautifully worded piece demonstrating the truth about BKWSU being involved in channelling and mediumship ... So, if you want to read it, I suggest you do today .

I read it, and found it to be excellent. Good work, Green108!

In fact, the article is now really BK PR whitewash. Little Simon Blandford and baby Louis Riveros have through the tenacity of naughty boys managed to remove all the things the BKs don't want the public to know about.

It is both sad and laughable at the same time.

This is the piece I was refering to, amazingly it is still there:

I wanted to address this issue of mediumship and possession from, in the first place, primary sources in order that those that are not BK followers can appreciate what is being referenced here and why. I am going to use on a Word processor on this one as it is important.

Firstly, can I remind contributors that Simon and Riveros are both dedicated BK followers and, at least Simon, a member of the BKWSU organization core Internet PR Team. I tend to see them as a single voice of the BKWSU; Simon and his shadow. The BKWSU invests considerable energy and resources keeping the the more freaky part of its operation.

Secondly, BK Raja Yoga and classical Raja Yoga have nothing in common. The focus of attention in BK Raja Yoga is a channelled entity, a spirit being, that “possessed” Lekhraj Kripalani in the 1930. The BKs claim this spirit entity is, of course, the God of all religions. I emphasise this so that individual realise that we are not talking about some numinous influence or general inspiration, which is how the BKs often sell it to non-BKs.

Channelling or possession is referred to in a variety of different cases in the BKWSU;

* the possession of Lekhraj Kripalani,
* the possession and mediumship of Hirday Mohini who is said to channel both Lekhraj Kripalani and God Father Shiva,
* the possession and mediumship by Hirday Mohini of other deceased senior BK followers,
* during two periods in the history, namely the beginning and immediately after the death of the medium Kripalani there were numerous cases of possession and mediumship by other BK follwoers until the spirit settled down for one medium
* regular trance mediumship not involving posssession
* and, of course, the current training up of new mediums

I guess to be exact, we would have to qualify the difference between channelling, possession, overshadowing and mediumship; and examine the relationship between the channel or medium and the possessing spirit entity. But that is beyond the scope of this article. What is unquestionable is whether there is the practise of possession, mediumship and channelling going on.

I have to laugh when Riveros says, “used as an instrument”. “Instrument” is a BK word that means the victim of possession or channelling medium in plain English. This is very typical of the BKWSU to attempt to use a word that they are very clear about the meaning but which is hidden to outsiders. “used as an instrument” means either possessed, channelling or acting as a medium.

He goes on to say that “the practise taught by BKWSU) does not involve spirit possession”. This is complete untrue. He may be ignorant of the facts of his own religions but more likely, he, like they “corporate” want to hide all this stuff from newcomers until they are hooked in a relationship with their god spirit.

Beyond the introductory possession and channelling mentioned above, the channelled messages that the possessing spirit speaks through the mediums (called Murlis), clearly confirmed by the largely spoken tradition, identify two more types of psychic influences;

* firstly, the primary possessing spirit they claim is god (Shiva) also states that he enters into his BK followers in order to do good service through them.

* Secondly, the BKWSU talks about “The Inspiration Party”. “The Inspiration Party” is a said to be group of deceased senior BK followers, now dead and without a body of their own. In some way, they spiritually possess or work through living BK followers again to promote the religion.

So part and parcel with the core meditation on the primary possessing spirit they call Shiva is the preparation of the BK follower to be used as a channel of the mind and energy of these other paranormal influences.

Both the original and paraphrase quotations are correct. High social status and importance does go to those Sisters that are channels and trance mediums for the male spirits. Without them there would be no Raja Yoga. It might be hard to visualise for non-BKs, but what we are talking about is 1,000s of people sitting down believing that God has entered into a little old Indian lady in Mount Abu, speaking to them personally and meeting them eye to eye. In the old days, it used to be possible to have conversations with him.

The final context we have to put this is in the BKWSU determination to hide all this from non-BKs and how ill it fits with their corporate and political ambitions.

Forget all the waffle, this is what the removal is all about. The BKWSU does not want outsiders to know that they are being initiated into an relationship with a ghost that possesses an old Indian lady. The BKWSU wants outsiders to think that they are meeting a universal God or some vague, inspirational “energy” or “source”. This is the language they prefer to use.

I argue against this. I think we have a responsibility to the greater community, through the Wikipedia, to provide factual truths; not some organization's PR or whitewash.

Without the "Ghost", there would be and could be no BK Raja Yoga. If the ghost, to quote the Indian presidential stories, turns out to the God of all religions as the BKs believe, then we are fine. We have done a good job advertising his coming. But you non-BKs must understand that the BKs believe this is god that has possessed Lekhraj Kripalani and has “come to destroy all other religions”. That is an exact quote.

The BKWSU followers wants to re-write this topic into some vague, flattering New Agey advertisement

There is nothing uncivil about that summary. Is that really the best response you can come up with? Another personal attack and more projection? More PR spin? That is just the cool, detached truth in non-BK language. To answer Simon above, I do not know of any anti-BK websites ... (oh, may be one; The Owelsong website).

Let’s look at the BKWSU own stories of "the possession of Lekhraj Kripalani" (although personally I do not believe it is actually true as written) and how he became a medium and channel to this other “spirit entity”.

On one occasion, the BKWSU claims his eyes shone red, the room was filled with red light around him and a booming voice spook out of him. (I doubt that it said “Shivohum, Shivohum” because there was no mention of Shiva until after 1950 at least).

On another occasion, the BKWSU claims he was falling to pieces and becoming like a child drawing Swastikas and Circles on the wall of a family house, they had to send him away because, presumably, they thought he was cracking up. It is reported that he thought he was going mad. Then it is said he had psychic visions. And during the early period, so were all the kids going into trance, having psychic experiences and dancing

Now, frankly, that is close to Linda Blair territory. I appreciate that. after all its financial investment, time and energy spent in PR, the BKWSU is uncomfortable at having its inner truths made public, but what else is the mechanism at play here?

To BKs, it is no problem. The possessing spirit is God. It is not about the mechanics, it is about the quality of this spirit entity which you/they think is Supreme. Fine. The rest of the world might think otherwise, especially if he is set on destroying their religions and way of life.

I think what underpins it as "possession" is the involuntary nature of it. Kripalani did not want it, did not ask for it, did not prepare and exercise himself to become a medium; but medium is what he was called in the organisation for most of its existence and channelling is what Gulzar does. Was her initiation as medium voluntary or did Shiva and the deceased Kripalani just possess her?

For non-BKs all the other references are accurate and taken from the organisation’s own channelled messages (almost and mostly verbatim) and publicity material which I can reference and are included in the article itself.

Thank you, Mr. Green. Very sound and clear for a post needs to be on such a murky topic.

Calling possession or channelling, "used as an instrument" is just sophistry and an euphemism. As you said, a dress up adopted in order to re-assure audiences and followers that "everything's cool", no need to worry. Lots of negative significances are attached to channelling and all main religions don't take mediumship lightly. In fact, they say it should be avoided or the victim of possession should be de-possessed by an appointed exorcist. Stuff for initiates, in all traditions.

I don't know why analogies with animals often come to my mind when I think of BKs but now the image I get, channelling the entity of a defunct ethologist, is that of a squid, spreading its ink in the water so it can confuse pursuers and get away.