The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

If we stand back and look at the BK org with some detachment, we may dare wondering if those allegations put forward in India, of BKs practising witchcraft and hypnotizing through drishti, were well grounded.

Arjun Bhai, any stories? It's funny how quickly BKs learn how to become good lawyers for the BK organization, even without being informed or experienced enough. Congratulations! Good training and conditioning! Even a new student becomes an attorney for the org. But by lokik laws, a lawyer is not entitled to defend his family ... so??

Better if a neutral outsider judges what's going on.

Arjun Bhai, any stories?

I don't have any stories at present. But will certainly quote if I come across.

Most BKs may not have anything to do with witchcraft. But exchange of drishti is certainly not prescribed in the Murlis and so depending on the stage of giver or taker of drishti, the other person may get affected by the process.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

I agree with BK Mitra that meditation helps in such situations and even Avyakt BapDada has dealt with such problems in Avyakt Vanis. I will quote some lines if possible.

Omshanti. As promised I am typing a Q&A published by the BKs as part of the Avyakt Vani dated 24.2.84 in English:

Question: Sometimes, even Brahmin souls are influenced by evil souls, so what should we do at that time?
Answer: The atmosphere at the centers should be constantly powerful and your own stage should also be powerful. Then evil spirits cannot do anything. It is the mind that is influenced and because of the mind being weak, there is an influence. Suppose, there is a weak minded soul that soul feel that some attack is there. From the beginning a special bhatti should be created for that soul and yogyukt souls should sit in meditation so that a powerful group should understand and have the responsibility that, "We have to do this special task to create the atmosphere."

As other programmes are made, in the same way this programme should also be done with full attention. Then the soul that feels an influence gets power and is saved. Because of this influence sometimes that particular soul won't be able to sit itself in meditation, but it doesn't matter because there is influence and if you continue to do your work with faith, then the mischief and influence will disappear. The evil spirit will even try to overpower you, those who are attempting the rescue. But don't be afraid. You create a powerful atmosphere and think that, "We have to do this task." and then gradually the influence will finish.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Our hearts were torn, so, in order to mend them, we have to pull the veil of lies apart.

Yes, looking around here, I actually wonder how much I was ever a BK. Clearly some have encountered issues I had little concern with. I came, I took, (gave a bit too hopefully) and then went. Enough though to take in 3 visits to Madhuban and I remain glad I did.

The energy release that accompanied the meetings with Baba, which is at the heart of Madhuban fascinated me. I spoke to many about it, both near the centre and on the fringes of the organisation. The experiences varied only in their intensity, from some admittedly, perhaps merely buying into the myth, right through to a very real sense of omniscience. What I think was uniformly conveyed, was that the energy was unequivocally benevolent.

What was just as apparent though, was that the channelling phenomenon itself was not well understood, probably not even by the medium herself. And this is what I was driving at earlier in this thread, in that I sensed with ex-l's own meeting with Baba, he experienced something other than pure love. This, as I’ve observed, is highly unusual and in my view suggests that any interference that he may have experienced, is much more likely to be due to something 'uninvited' taking advantage of the open channel, rather than Baba himself.

My own view is that whether Baba is the Divine, a 'mere' aspect of the Divine or just a tiny ‘glimpse’ of the Divine is likely to remain a conundrum. As I think I recall from the Murlis, something along the lines of "You think you’ve heard it all now, but there well be more surprises to come!"

Although I can accept people may continue to have problems with the organisation, I am loathed to see people rejecting the experience and feeling they’ve wasted their lives, because they feel it's no longer intellectually tenable. If you had even a glimpse, then surely you should treasure that, for it is far more than most ever encounter.

I sensed with ex-l's own meeting with Baba, he experienced something other than pure love. This, as I've observed, is highly unusual and in my view suggests that any interference that he may have experienced, is much more likely to be due to something 'uninvited' taking advantage of the open channel, rather than Baba himself.

This is interesting to think about. I think that interferences do occur during spiritualist seances, trances, channelling, etc ... Most official religions discourage these type of practises. The reason why I, and probably other BKs, accepted and went along with an org whose teachings and scriptures are based on what a medium channels, is because we believed the Spirit behind it was Supreme, God himself, that they call Shiva and underline the Benevolent One, so we thought we were safe.

I don't think many of us would have been keen on participating to similar activities in Madhuban or listening to the Murli elsewhere, where an X disincarnated spirit would come, speak or make a table to dance. So if it is and was God behind it all, and specifically for the Avyakt more recent times, how would the Almighty Authority whilst possessing the medium Dadi Gulzar, allow another spirit to come along and speak or even spread negative vibes? If any wondering soul can speak through Dadi Gulzar, we are really set!! And what about all the other Sandeshis still getting messages, going up, landing down with a jerk like Jayanti, Sudesh, little Mohini and less known ones? In India it's rather a common thing, although not encouraged.

I haven't heard whether any other soul other than Supreme Soul has entered DG's body and spoken. But when Avyakt Vani is going on there are instances when evil souls do enter the body of audiences and they do make a lot of shouting and disturbances.

IBHS
MITRA

The energy release that accompanied the meetings with Baba, which is at the heart of Madhuban fascinated me. What I think was uniformly conveyed, was that the energy was unequivocally benevolent. If you had even a glimpse, then surely you should treasure that, for it is far more than most ever encounter.

I agree with you Bert and can say that the most precious moments in my BK life were the experiences I got during my personal meetings with Baba. Sometimes my mind goes to those moments ... and the memory of His Drishti and of His Words has been helping and conforting me during the difficult phases of my life. And what about the blissful feeling of Baba's presence while sitting in meditation at Amrit Vela?? I am sure all of you must have felt the same at least sometimes ... And at 4.00 am there wasn't anyone around that could have influenced us ... it was just us and Shiva the Father.

I remember the words of an old song I used to play at that time that goes ...

"Early morning, nectar flows,
in the silence you sit alone
The Father is with you and He gives you everything
there is no other ... nothing in between ...
How could they know ... How could they know? ..."

And even if I do not' miss many of the BKs ... I do miss all the rest. I miss Madhuban, I miss ShivBaba's presence and the experince of going along life while being surrounded by His loving protection.

A million thanks Bert, for bringing those memories back to my mind
Adikari

I haven't heard whether any other soul other than Supreme Soul has entered DG's body and spoken.

Surely this is a mistake, you mean BapDada enters DG's body, i.e. Brahma Baba soul AND Supreme Soul, not just Supreme Soul?

how would the Almighty Authority whilst possessing the medium Dadi Gulzar, allow another spirit to come along and speak or even spread negative vibes?

hmm - do remember I am only speculating over possibilities here. But research on the channelling of energy from another plane, seems to indicate that no matter how tuneable the medium, there is always some possibility of interference. Baba himself seems to have given little detail on the specifics of the 'possession'. But he has made it clear that he is limited in his interaction with the physical plane and much of what I've come across, both from the spiritual traditions and from secular research suggests that possession, as in an energy from a more subtle plane taking over a physical body is not possible.

You may, as I did, have seen a subtle form descend into the head of Dadi Gulzar, but it may just have been a hologram of it's source transmitted down the channel. Research also seems to indicate, that the most able mediums almost never experience interference whilst establishing and maintaining the channel, and as I've said previously, I never came across any meeting postmortem where anything other than benevolent vibrations were encountered (even amongst those expressing disappointment over lack of experience).

ex-l's denial of spiritual benefit, repeated reference to spooks, plus the fact that he would have met when the medium was less experienced than in my own time, strongly suggests to me that he may have experienced otherwise. I am hoping he will add his own interpretation of his experience to this debate.

ex-l's denial of spiritual benefit, repeated reference to spooks, plus the fact that he would have met when the medium was less experienced than in my own time, strongly suggests to me that he may have experienced otherwise. I am hoping he will add his own interpretation of his experience to this debate.

• May I ask, or anyone else, can you shed light on the rumours of three young women being trained up to act as mediums for BapDada in case Hirday Mohini dies?

Full discussion of these matters will have to wait. In the context of this thread, I am very interested in discussing the issues in depth. But I have a few other jobs on my hands with my nose full of 70 year old Sindhi dust right now, as my other posts show.

In brief, as someone that grew up with 'Casper the Friendly Ghost', I am sorry but I do not find it disrespectful at all. Indeed, it is only a child with a very pure and innocent heart that can see such a ghost and have an intimate, playful relationship with it; being led, guided and protected.

Be careful - and very specific - when you make allegations of me. There are too many people on the internet, and out there, that seem to think they know me better than I know myself, and the Yagya. And to date, to speak cricket with you, my bating average is fairly good.

No, I never had the kind of experience that you are suggesting. I have never suggested that another, say, 'lower astral entity' or non-BK 'dead person' also pops in and out of Gulzar when ... who ever it is ... possesses her. Here I ought to eat my own advice and be specific too. Capital 'S' Spook and lower case 'spook'.

Can you provide references for the research you mention regarding,

spiritual traditions and secular research suggests that possession, as in an energy from a more subtle plane taking over a physical body is not possible

Do you mean the one who is possessing comes from a lower plane?

In general response, I distinctly highlight the difference between channelling 'beings' and channelling 'energies' as, to the public face, it becomes clouded within the BKWSU. But you are right to say that our understanding, and their teaching, of what is going on is so vague as to leave those of us who think with more questions than answers. Its more of a Bhakti thing to just not care and just "accept the benefit" in blind faith.

The having of an experience, a bit like going to Lourdes, equalling in some way 'merit gained' and a change in one's life. When to onlookers there is no difference. Are the BKs beating up the PBKs in someway beating them up differently, just because they have met God in person? Is the quality of stroke different? Is the PR spin in someway, more acceptable spin?

From my earliest days in Gyan, possibly even my first sitting, I realised that it was not just the so-conceived God Father Shiva that was talking in the Murlis. This was deeply denied and repressed by my teachers, and their teachers (the SS), at that time. "It was God ... GOD ... SUPREME GOD ... do not question". Time has mellowed and there appears to be some admittance of this. The general consensus on this forum, whether from ex-BKs or PBKs, is that it is Lekhraj Kirpalani/BB that is entering Hirday Mohini.

Now, to include your proposal, whether the entity of Lekhraj Kirpalani/BB in possession of Hirday Mohini's body ... and is then channelling the 'energy' of Shiva Baba ... I do not know. But that would fit in with the PBK point of view that it is only Lekhraj Kirpalani that is being channelled via the Brahmakumari Sister but that his Vanis or versions are in line with Shrimat.

The PBKs go on to state that it is the respectively 'lower' level of Lekhraj Kirpalani's consciousness that create the effects on Gulzar's body and face. To that I might add, ditto the psychic effects you and others on this forum have reported, of seeing an entity enter into her body/head and the psychically perceived transmogrifications of her face.

And what of when othe dead BKs enter her? Who is the gateway, her psychic guide, the control, the mechanism of choice? And who calls and controls the 'BapDada' entity/entities? Have we ever had a satisfactory explanation of why the personality is so changed between Sakar and Avyakt?

I don't question something is happening. I just do not put a great deal of value onto it. Now, the PBKs question if the Murlis do not repeatedly say that the whole matter of Shiv's alleged moments of embodiments are much more subtle and refined. I could agree with that. At the moment I am just standing back and looking at the thing as a whole, and wanting to slow the action right down. There is too much fast talking ... 'pea under the shell stuff' ... "now you see it now you don't" going on. Shiv could well be popping in and out of elsewhere ... It says he does in the Murlis ... But what is the value of that either. Who is he/they?

... AND WHEN DID HE (Shiva) ACTUALLY COME ON THE SCENE AND ENTER THE PHILISOPHICAL CANON? IT HAS TO BE AFTER 1950, WHICH IS POST-THE MOVE TO ABU. DID THEY RE-INVENT THEMSELVES THEN OR DID HE JUST MAGICALLY APPEAR?

I presume you and the BKWSU have seen my other posts concerning the falisification of Lekhraj Kirpalani's date of birth and the eradicating of 18 years of belief ... at least ... that Lekhraj Kirpalani was GOD PRAJAPATI.

My position is that it is not what goes in your ears and eyes, or even the back of your head, that makes you divine or defiles you, it is what comes out of mouth or is done my our hands. And I am looking at that right now. So what? 70 years monopoly of personal contact with Supreme Soul God and what do you do? Lie about his age, engage in Stalin-esque media control and historical revision ... that seems spooky to me.

By the fruit you will know the seed.

Found this on the web about chanelling and would like to share this info. There are basically two kinds of channeling" A conscious channel and a trance channel. Not everyone seems to have the same ability but it is also common for someone who has been conscious channeling to develop their trance channeling abilities over time. I know several Trance Channels and their experience is that they all 'go away' for a while whilst the entity is channeling through them and then come back with little or no remembrance of what was spoken through them.

The Rev. Simeon Stefanidakis is a trance channel for higher Spiritual Beings - we can trace more info on her work if required and if relevant to the thread on channeling ... Hope it's useful and not too long to take to read through ... I believe if you read between the lines it answers lots of questions that have been raised in this forum / thread.

What is Trance Communication? by Rev. Simeon Stefanidakis

Trance mediumship or channeling, like so many other forms of spirit communication, is very much misunderstood. In recent years, a number of mediums have called themselves "trance" channels, when, in fact, they were not working in a genuine trance condition. This has been a source of great confusion for many people.

When spirit links with a medium, the spirit communicator exerts various degrees of control, or overshadows the consciousness of the medium to a greater or lesser degree. This varies, depending upon the intent and conditions of communication, as well as the ability of the medium to lend himself or herself to be overshadowed or controlled. Trance is considered the strongest degree of control. Yet, even here, there are various degrees of trance control: from light trance to very deep trance. Deep trance is used primarily in physical mediumship.

There are many factors which indicate genuine trance control, and parapsychologists have used various tests to determine whether, in fact, a medium is under trance control; and, if so, to what degree. Genuine trance is a strong sharing of mental and physical energies and consciousness between the medium and the spirit communicator. There is generally -- although not always -- manifested, within the medium, the following:

• A slowing of the heart rate.
• A slow, deep, and steady breathing pattern.
• No rapid eye movement, or REM.
• A lowering of body temperature.
• A greatly reduced reaction to touch and pain.
• Various degrees of unconsciousness.

Furthermore, because in the trance condition the spirit communicator is speaking directly through the consciousness of the medium - rather than the medium relating what is being mentally given to him or her - the voice pattern, inflection, and general manner of speech differ from that normally exhibited by the medium.

Finally, much research has been conducted around the language patterns of dialogue exhibited during trance communication. There is very often a broken speech pattern, a reversal of sentence structure, and an overall change in grammar usage. This is very evident in the Cayce readings, the Seth material, in Eileen Garrett's trance communications, and in our own Rev. Stephen Fulton's trance communications.

One final point needs to be mentioned: that of control. What does it mean to be controlled by spirit? First of all, it does NOT mean that the medium is, in any way, possessed by a spirit personality. Possession - or attachment (apparently a new and, in my opinion, disturbing buzz word) - is extremely rare. Nor does it mean that the medium leaves his or her body and the spirit enters therein.

Mediumistic control means a sharing of mental and physical energies between the medium and spirit communicator or operator. Control signifies a telepathic rapport between the two. How strongly en rapport they are determines the degree of control. Control can range from inspired thought, to conscious control, to light trance, to deep trance, to very deep trance. It all depends upon the work at hand and the mental and physical energies available to the spirit communicator or operator.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• May I ask, or anyone else, can you shed light on the rumours of three young women being trained up to act as mediums for BapDada in case Hirday Mohini dies?

I heard from a Sister-in-Charge of a centre in England, who takes great interest in these matters, that there are four young Sisters being trained up to take Hirday Mohini's place, and that they are based in New York.

I heard from a Sister-in-Charge of a centre in England, who takes great interest in these matters, that there are four young Sisters being trained up to take Hirday Mohini's place, and that they are based in New York.

I wonder if Shiva Baba intends to use quadrophonic mediums all at once, or if Lekhraj Kirpalani just wants the pick of the best "virgin to mount".

• Do we know anything of their identities or the nature of training they are given by the Brahma-kumaris leadership?

• Is this inline with Shrimat, or is there a whole other layer of Shrimat that the general BK populace is unaware of, and does not question?

Another hidden or unseen aspect of the BKWSU's more occultic practises.

I wonder if Shiva Baba intends to use quadrophonic mediums all at once, or if Dada Lekhraj just wants the pick of the best "virgin to mount".

She said the best one would be used, but as the training takes time they will have to wait to see which one turns out best. Maybe, and this is me speculating, they are taking out an insurance policy in case one or more of them leaves the BKWSU.

But when Avyakt Vani is going on there are instances when evil souls do enter the body of audiences and they do make a lot of shouting and disturbances.

In fact I have witnessed one such incident as a child that happened in the early 1980s, when Avyakt BapDada used to meet BKs in the meditation hall situated besides Baba's hut. While BapDada was narrating Avyakt Vani some evil spirit possessed an old BK mother and she came shouting near BapDada's sandali. She had to be forcibly removed from the hall by two Brothers. All that happened in front of many double foreigner BKs also. BapDada was not at all perturbed by the happenings and was smiling as usual.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun