The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Post13 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:But as regards souls going to a place for rest after death is concerned, I don't think there is any such place. In India it is generally believed that any soul which leaves the body enters into another body within 13 days.

It still raises the question, " where do they go for 13 days? ". And where are these roving disencarnate spirits whom seem to have overstayed their 13 days welcome?

In Hinduism, Buddhism and most other traditions, there are other worlds or realms for spiritus to go to. Some Heavenly, some hellish, some ordinary where folks just live out a life until reincarnating, others educational where the soul can learn.

No, of course, I don't " know " this, I am not able to go there but the entirely tradition of the Christian Spiritualist Churches is to prove this and survival of the soul after death. There are many, many accounts of psychic and mystics being able to converse and experience such realms. Swedenborg is one such interesting character.

Now, obviously, there are also frauds and even if we take on board spiritualistic view, within spiritualism, shamanism and animism there is an awareness of trickster souls. And, as someone else said, " just because they are dead, does not mean that they are enlightened ". This can be very true in the case of other 'chanelled entities'.

Within the Western Tradition of Spiritualism, and I am aware of the same in Buddhism, there are a number of world or realms some becoming very " high " or refined that makes communication with difficult.

I guess you could also include questions about the Akashic records in this topic and likewise " Aliens ".
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uddhava

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The Psychic Dimension of BKWSU

Post15 Jun 2006

I hope it's OK to quite this from the wikipedia article -
When I first joined the group, certain designated people would go into trance on Thursday morning when food was offered and bring back a message. I also attempted to accomplish such, opening myself to such subtle dreamlike perceptions, images that I could report and interpret. This was an occasional activity, not part of everyday meditation practice.

In the mid 1990's, Dadi Prakashmani issued an order from Madhuban headquarters that no one shall go into trance when offering food, except for Dadi Gulzar, the current medium for the founder.

Does anyone else have experience of this at their centre? As I understand it, there was a period of confusion after the departure of Lekhraj Kirpalani in January 1969 as various BKs claimed to receive messages from God - I am not sure whether this means they claimed to be the new Chariot.

I guess this means that Lekhraj Kirpalani omitted to nominate his chosen Chariot before departing. Does anyone know when and how Dadi Gulzar got the nod as the new Chariot? Clearly it cannot have been via the official Chariot because there wasn't one. Was it a message from God? Did the Dadis take a vote? It doesn't seem to be the case that DG was the unique holder of this gift and therefore the obvious choice but rather it was a question of choosing between the various (how many?) claimants.

In choosing DG, does this mean that the other claimants were false/deluded or that several candidates might have filled the role but there was only one job going? At the appointment of DG (or was it some time after?) it was decided that there could only be one Chariot, so others should cease from claiming to receive messages from God, or at least keep it quiet and not claim to have Chariot status.

Anyway back to the quote above - would the trance messengers receive messengers from God or just Lekhraj Kirpalani? Was it only Indians who were allowed to do this or double foreigners as well? What kind of messages did they get? When someone goes into a trance, is their experience reliable, I mean couldn't it just be their imagination? :shock:
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ex-l

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Re: Of Trances and Chariots

Post15 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote:Does anyone else have experience of this at their centre? Was it only Indians who were allowed to do this or double foreigners as well? What kind of messages did they get? When someone goes into a trance, is their experience reliable, I mean couldn't it just be their imagination? :shock:

Its OK to quote from the Wikipedia, the whole idea of it is that it is free and without license.

There is 'permission' and then there is 'ability' ... I can witness that some Western Sisters, at least at a local UK centres, attempted this. Of course, Sister Jayanti most certainly did in royal style.

In my opinion, the one at the local centre I saw was merely taking on the mannerism and language of the real Trance Messengers and making it all up. To be honest, it is painful and embarrassing to remember, something like; " Baba gave the soul the vision ... * ", instead of, " I imagined ... ".It was a bit of a ritual but at least you got a free breakfast! I refer back to the Wikipedia as well then;

    • were these Sisters encouraged and taught how to do Trance Messenger work? Or was it all part of the natural 'possession' process Shiva exhibited.
    • did they have trance workshops or did they just benefit from Sisters with natural psychic abilities?
    • was Gulzar taught to be a medium, or did it just start *bingo*, just like that?

[* That ought to start a new topic, embarrassing examples of 'Brahminspeak'. Do BKs still refer to themselves in the third person and credit any thought they have to God, e.g. " Baba gave the soul the thought ... " ? They have two languages, one for in the centre and the other for outside life.]
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howiemac

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Re: Of Trances and Chariots

Post17 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote:Does anyone know when and how Dadi Gulzar got the nod as the new Chariot?

The first Avyakt Murli in 1969 came (unexpectedly) through Gulzar, and in it BapDada told the Dadis to select the messenger they wished to use from there on - and Gulzar was selected.
In choosing DG, does this mean that the other claimants were false / deluded or that several candidates might have filled the role but there was only one job going?

BapDada clearly indicated that serveral could do the job.
At the appointment of DG (or was it some time after?) it was decided that there could only be one Chariot, so others should cease from claiming to receive messages from God, or at least keep it quiet and not claim to have Chariot status.

I believe this was discussed in the last few Sakar Murlis before Lehkraj left the body - they were all asked to stop going into trance - except for the official messengers - there at at least three of them, not just one, and they still go into trance on a Thursday at Madhuban and come back with descriptions of encounters with BapDada.
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uddhava

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Re: Of Trances and Chariots

Post17 Jun 2006

howiemac wrote:The first Avyakt Murli in 1969 came (unexpectedly) through Gulzar, and in it BapDada told the Dadis to select the messenger they wished to use from there on - and Gulzar was selected.

Wow the first ever Avyakt Murli - I would love to see this. Is it still available or has it disappeared? Does anyone know when in 1969 it arrived, how soon after January 18?
BapDada clearly indicated that serveral could do the job.

OK so what happened to the ones that were not selected - do they still get messages from God but not publicise them or do they refrain from using their gift?
I believe this was discussed in the last few Sakar Murlis before Lehkraj left the body - they were all asked to stop going into trance - except for the official messengers - there at at least three of them, not just one, and they still go into trance on a Thursday at Madhuban and come back with descriptions of encounters with BapDada.

Going back to the original quote by Joel it seems that at various times a lot more than the official three at Madhuban were trancing. Anway are the trance messengers doing something different to DG - I mean are the trances encounters with Bapada without words whereas DG acts as a medium?

Also of course, DG is not a Chariot in the sense that Lekhraj Kirpalani was a Chariot because he was the medium for God purely and directly whereas DG is kind of medium for the medium ie one step removed. So would the three official trance messengers be equally capable of doing the Chariot job? I am just trying to understand what is the difference if any between a trance messenger and a Chariot.
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ex-l

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Re: Of Trances and Chariots

Post17 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote:Going back to the original quote by Joel it seems that at various times a lot more than the official three at Madhuban were trancing. Any way are the trance messengers doing something different to DG - I mean are the trances encounters with Bapada without words whereas DG acts as a medium? Also of course, DG is not a Chariot in the sense that Lekhraj Kirpalani was a Chariot because he was the medium for God purely and directly whereas DG is kind of medium for the medium ie one step removed. So would the three official trance messengers be equally capable of doing the Chariot job? I am just trying to understand what is the difference if any between a trance messenger and a Chariot.

Into the mix, of course, we have to add the PBK claims that Shiva possessed Dada Lekhraj's [Lekhraj Kirpalani] partner to explain things to him, remember stories told by the BKWSU of how whole groups of BKs used to be 'entranced' and dance around believing/experiencing that they were in the Golden Age with Krishna at the cliff top edges of Madhuban and refer to times where Shiva spoke through other Sisters at group meetings just to prove that he was not bound to one only.

What it appears to say is that this spirit Shiva has the power and ability to possess and entrance at will, although certain individuals with psychic - rather than spiritual - gifts might be able to detach their consciousness enough from this material world to visit / envisage / attune themselves to more subtle psychic worlds where they are able to see and communicate with Lekhraj Kirpalani and, potententially, Shiva through Lekhraj Kirpalani.

On one hand it is interesting that Shiva exhibits such reserve, why does he just not go about possessing and chanelling through numerous individuals worldwide [ or may be he does / they do ... ]. And, on the other, what I am hinting at, is that it may just not be one soul but many. Or 'legion' as the Bible puts it. Of course, I don't know. My position is that we cant 'know' until it is all over.

It also suggests to be that there are two quite different levels within the BKWSU. One for the hoi polloi that eats whatever it is fed. One for the 'psychic policy makers', of whom 'Shiva' is in partnership with, that decide what the party line is that the hoi polloi is fed. Do any of you ever remember such matters being discussed?

And do the trance messengers limit themselves when meditating normally *NOT* to go into trance, *NOT* to see/experience BapDada and how?, or does BapDada regulate the whole process from their position of control?

Again, this suggests a whole different level of experience of Yoga and meditation for a few apart from the many BKs which I am damn sure are having no where like these experiences. Its would be a whole lot easier to remember a god if you saw him in front of you every time you went into trance / meditation! Experience the many can only wonder at.
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howiemac

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Re: Of Trances and Chariots

Post18 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote:Wow the first ever Avyakt Murli - I would love to see this. Is it still available or has it disappeared? Does anyone know when in 1969 it arrived, how soon after January 18?

I no longer have a full copy, but do have the following summary from my notes:

Avyakt BapDada 21 January 1969 (summary)
Are all of you sitting in the Avyakt form? Whilst in the corporeal form you have to stabilise yourself in the Avyakt stage. When you remain stable in the Avyakt stage, there will not be any upheaval. The part being enacted at the present time is the method to make all of you Avyakt very quickly. There is no need for fluctuation. At the beginning, the establishment of the Yagya took place suddenly. You used to write about having faith that even if Brahma were to go away, your stage and your faith would remain unshakeable. Faith means that there is not the slightest form of doubt in any situation or at the time of any obstacles. Situations have to change and they will continue to change. But all of you sing the song "Even if the world changes, we will remain constant". And so do all of you have such faith in the intellect? Your Mama used to tell all of you that all the supports that your faith has had up until now will be removed, and that even after they have been removed, the foundation should still be strong. If the foundation is not strong, the supports are necessary. Which supports? You must not let go of Baba's support, the family's support, or that of the disciplines of the family. Faith must not be broken by the testing scenes that come in front of you. Faith is unbreakable: it cannot be broken even if someone tries to break it. Those with such faith in the intellect are the garland around Baba's neck.

Is Brahma your most beloved one? It is not that he was, but that he still is. BapDada has decorated the children so much, so have the children not yet put on all the decorations? A day had to come when you would remember those decorations that you received from BapDada. That time is now. Because he is egoless and humble, he used to tell many children "I have not yet become complete. I have not yet become constantly soul conscious". All of you must have noticed in the last three to four months that Brahma was no longer a corporeal being, but that he had attained the Avyakt angelic form. A few years ago Brahma would listen to little matters, he used to give you time. But what did you see recently? He was not listening to these little matters because he was spending that time in constant remembrance. did not you children notice that a shining star was visible sparkling on his forehead? Those who were stable in the Avyakt stage knew and recognised the Avyakt form. Those who were not stable in the Avyakt stage did not fully recognise the invaluable jewel.

Even now, the task of establishment is Brahma's not yours. Even now you children will be sustained through Brahma. Brahma's part will continue until the end of establishment. You children must be wondering how there will be study through Brahma now, In fact, because of your stage, the questions of why and what etc. should not arise. Never mind just questions, within some children an ocean of upheaval has begun. Only a few have passed this first paper. Have a little patience. Since The Knowledge is imperishable, and the study is imperishable, why is there the fluctuation of questions? So all this is being explained to you to finish the upheaval.

Class will continue as it has been up to now. What will be spoken? The body of Brahma was fixed and so the Murlis that were spoken through that body will always be the Murlis. The little service that takes place through the trance messengers cannot be called Murlis. That does not have the magic of the Murlis. There is magic in the Murli of BapDada. So you will have to revise all the Murlis that have already been spoken. Post will continue to be sent to the main centres from Abu as always. Do you remember the Murli that was spoken a year ago? You probably do not even remember the Murli that you read yesterday. Some points are such that even though you read them many times, they don't remain in the intellect. This is why the connection through Murlis and letters will remain as it was. You will come to Madhuban to be refreshed as you have been doing. Now the question arises: what will you do? Whom will you come to meet? How will you be refreshed? You must have a close connection with the lucky stars (the main instruments) and bring the results of your centre, any problems, whatever progress there has been, to those instruments in Madhuban, and also bring the new flowers that have blossomed in the garden, in order to give them a vision of the gathering. Together with this BapDada will serve fully through the trance messenger who has been fixed. Are there any more questions?

You must be thinking that people will say that your Brahma has gone away in less than a hundred years. This is a very easy question, it is not difficult. His age was nearly a hundred. The fact that a hundred years was mentioned is not wrong. If there are any left he will complete them in the angelic form. The part of establishment through Brahma is for a hundred years. Those hundred years have to be completed, but until then, after the part of physical Brahma, the part of the Brahmins now has to continue. Why did Brahma create Brahmins? Will Brahma not see his own creation in the future? Will he not give you the crown of responsibility in the Confluence Age? Otherwise how will you become the deities of the Golden Age? All the responsibility here lays the foundation for there. So, give to whoever asks you children questions the reply that establishment through Brahma has to continue.

The time for the end of the children's study has come very close. The signal has been given to you in each Murli since Mama left. Is one given the date or moment of a paper beforehand? A paper is that which takes place suddenly. What did Baba see in the result? No one passed fully. There was a little weakness seen in each one. Even then its very good because this is still the time for efforts. On the basis of that, the result can only be said to be good. But both Bap and Dada were pleased about one thing. What was that? Children gave the proof both of a gathering and of love. Brahma was seeing from the Subtle Region how everyone was when they came, the intoxication with which they came, and their stage when meeting each other. Both Bap and Dada together were seeing this result. So each one should see the self and remove the weaknesses from within the self.

And all of you know who is the instrument for you all from today. Didi is the main one already, and Kumarka is her helper. All the administration will be carried on from the headquarters as it has been. Both of them will continue to look after all of you.

Today you have come into this gathering to give something and to take something.
So, are those who have come to take, ready to give something? Today you have to give the donation of two things in the midst of the gathering. One main thing is that, as from today, you must not see, hear, or keep within your heart, the defects of others. Secondly, in order to shake your faith some people will say things and raise the cry that now they will see how this institution carries on. They do not know that your support is imperishable. You must have faith in the intellect and remain unshakeable and constant. Brahma has created all these Brahmins, so does a Father not retire when the children have grown up? So now just think that Brahma is in the retired stage with you. Having given you children the task, he will continue to observe. He left the body, but he did not let go of the hand and the company. He has not let go of the hand and company of the intellect. That will remain constantly and eternally. So firstly give the donation of not fluctuating, and secondly give the donation of not seeing defects.

Your attention is being drawn to one more thing, that is the teachings you received in the last Murli that BapDada spoke, about having too many visions and going into trance being a waste of time. That should not happen. It shouldn't be that you are not able to verify the parts being played by the trance messengers at the centres. This is why you will receive directions through whichever trance messenger Didi and Kumarka, who are the instruments, appoint as instruments. For this part also the significance will be clarified by whoever they make the instrument. In the last Murli there was the direction that to go into heaven at the time of offering Bhog is a waste of time, because that is not the time to be wandering around. Now you have to give the proof of constantly staying on the pilgrimage of remembrance, and inculcating the teachings that you have received into your practical life.

If you have love for Brahma Baba, what is the sign of that love? To shed two tears is not love. But to have love for the things loved by Brahma can be called love. He had love for service. He gave the proof of service even at the end. And so love (for Brahma) means to have love for service and love for his directions. This is love. However, none of you should have the thought of why Baba called Sakar Baba into the Subtle Region without him taking leave from you. For, if he had asked to take leave from you, would you have let him? Consider this to be the system of the Brahmin clan: whatever system was fixed in the drama continues. Baba understands that all of you had a lot of love for Sakar Baba. It is not just that you had, but you still have. If you did not have love, how could you be in this gathering? You had love and you also have love now. This is the sign of the relationship between the Father and the children. Because of this, BapDada is smiling in the Subtle Region. Since the children have love, don't I also have love? But he know that whatever part takes place in the drama is beneficial. He was the one who was completely perfect, unshakeable, immovable and stable, and he remains that. But he has a thousand fold love greater than you children have. You now have to give the proof of love. This is a game to remain hidden.

BapDada is present now and will always remain present to make you angelic. Now, having met all of you spiritual jewels, BapDada is taking leave. We will meet again. There is benefit in whatever happens. There is BapDada and benefit. There are no other words.

The 1969 Murlis (ie the first Avyakt Murlis) in book form, was re-published a couple of years ago in Madhuban - copies are probably still available from Madhuban and from the Global Cooperation House shop in London, and maybe other BK shops as well, to BKs at least.
what happened to the ones that were not selected - do they still get messages from God but not publicise them or do they refrain from using their gift?

they all receive Bhog messages in the same way, and relate them to the audience immediately after coming out of trance.
So would the three official trance messengers be equally capable of doing the Chariot job?

As i understand it - yes, any of them could do it. And a good number of others too, i should think, who have not been made "official".
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uddhava

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Post18 Jun 2006

Dear Howiemac,

Thanks for this, v interesting.
You children must be wondering how there will be study through Brahma now…Class will continue as it has been up to now. What will be spoken? The body of Brahma was fixed and so the Murlis that were spoken through that body will always be the Murlis. The little service that takes place through the trance messengers cannot be called Murlis. That does not have the magic of the Murlis. There is magic in the Murli of BapDada. So you will have to revise all the Murlis that have already been spoken.

I don't follow this - why do they have to be revised?
bring the results of your centre, any problems, whatever progress there has been, to those instruments in Madhuban and also bring the new flowers that have blossomed in the garden, in order to give them a vision of the gathering. Together with this BapDada will serve fully through the trance messenger who has been fixed

Is this referring to Dadi Gulzar so DG is a trance messenger?
Your attention is being drawn to one more thing, that is the teachings you received in the last Murli that BapDada spoke, about having too many visions and going into trance being a waste of time. That should not happen. It shouldn't be that you are not able to verify the parts being played by the trance messengers at the centres. This is why you will receive directions through whichever trance messenger Didi and Kumarka, who are the instruments, appoint as instruments.

I don't get this - is it saying that going into trance is OK or is not OK?
howiemac wrote:they all receive Bhog messages in the same way, and relate them to the audience immediately after coming out of trance.

OK, so the Bhog trance messengers are doing the same thing as DG is doing in a kind of mini version?
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ex-l

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Post18 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote:I don't follow this - why do they have to be revised?

Perhaps he means repeated and gone over again rather than "revised" in the re-write meaning the BKWSU seemed to have adopted? [ My own point of view only ].
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joel

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Post18 Jun 2006

ex-l wrote:[Perhaps he means repeated and gone over again rather than "revised" in the re-write meaning the BKWSU seemed to have adopted? [ My own point of view only ].

Yes, that is the conventional interpretation of this BK / Indian-English jargon.
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uddhava

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God and Channelling

Post19 Jun 2006

Dear BKs, PBKs, ex-BKs,

Is 'channelling' part of BK / PBK life? Perhaps it first depends on how the word is defined. I think that many outsiders would say that what the Chariot - DL / DG / Virendra Dev Dixit - does seems like channelling but would BKs/PBKs accept or reject this?

I have also heard the view that the term 'channelling' applies not only to the Chariot but to general BKs/PBKs but this is not my view so perhaps someone else can explain.
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howiemac

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Post19 Jun 2006

OK so the Bhog trance messengers are doing the same thing as DG is doing in a kind of mini version?

The channeling of BapDada through Gulzar is different from the Bhog messages - in the Bhog messages, the messenger consciously meets Brahma Baba / BapDada in the Subtle Region and comes back and reports her experience - whereas when BapDada speaks through Gulzar, she is not consciously aware of what is happening, and has no recollection afterwards of BapDada using her body, or of what BapDada said. That said, the Murli does indicate that BapDada could use another trance messenger in the same way.
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uddhava

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Post19 Jun 2006

howiemac wrote:The channeling of BapDada through Gulzar is different from the Bhog messages - in the Bhog messages, the messenger consciously meets Brahma Baba / BapDada in the Subtle Region and comes back and reports her experience - whereas when BapDada speaks through Gulzar

Dear Howiemac,

OK thanks - are Bhog messages restricted to wordless experience or can the messenger come back and say, 'Baba said ...'

Also is Bhog messaging a type of trance messaging or is that something else? Does Avyakt BapDada above refer to DG as a trance messenger?
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arjun

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Post20 Jun 2006

Dear Uddhava, Omshanti. Could you please explain what is 'channelling' from your point of view or the view of the outside world? Then we can present our views.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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howiemac

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Post21 Jun 2006

Uddhava wrote: are Bhog messages restricted to wordless experience or can the messenger come back and say 'Baba said ...' Also is Bhog messaging a type of trance messaging or is that something else? Does Avyakt BapDada above refer to DG as a trance messenger?

Dadi Gulzar is a trance messenger - as understand it the Bhog messages are trance messages. There is no sound in the Subtle Regions, so can be no words or conversation as we know it - it is all done by telepathy and visions, and through this very clear "messages" can be given - the trance messengers have to put their experiences into their own words, which obviously leaves plenty room for misunderstanding/manipulation etc.. I guess this is a major reason why the process of trance messaging has been discouraged since the 1960s.

Because of the lack of sound in the Subtle Regions, the only way "Baba" can speak (whether we are talking Avyakt Brahma Baba here, or Shiva, or BapDada) is through a corporeal body in this corporeal world (or presumably it could be done through automatic writing ...). hence the need for a medium such as Dadi Gulzar to donate her body temporarily for the purpose.
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