The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and Spiritualism

Post07 Apr 2009

terry wrote:The reason I dismiss Scott Peck (on this subject) is because he is a practicing Christian

Then it is exactly what I predicted your response would be. Its amazing how you can know without even having to read anything.

This is exactly what the septic-skeptics like James Randi do as well. They make an open challenge to the world and, as soon as one comes that might actually challenge them, they start to tighten the "acceptable circle" of conditions around them to exclude it. So, after you have excluded anyone nominally Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, otherwise religious ... how many people are going to be left?

And would that so radically corrode his scientific or professional abilities? It that not a little bit pressumptive or disrespectful? I mean, Darwin was a "Christian", so were Galileo, Copernicus and Newton.

I don't accept Scott Peck final definition of what he experienced, nor do I condone the Catholic-type exocism rite, but I do accept that did he did experience what he did. I'd just like to read a "rational" explanation for it. The books reads as a good starter on the subject from an informed and qualified source, no more. Scott Peck does at the end of his short book express it within a Christian paradigm but them it is really for us to understand and filter that out.

He is dead, actually, so it is a "was". Its a bit of a joke really because he is equally reviled by Christians. I'd say, he is just one of we "well travelled people". its just a good comparison to your only experience to date, of an old man sprinkling water on someone ... which is what I would suggest it only was.

I just thought you might be interested to read what one was really like.
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Terry

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and Spiritualism

Post07 Apr 2009

ex-l wrote:Then it is exactly what I predicted your response would be. Its amazing how you can know without even having to read anything.

Well, as we have earlier gone over this exact topic - scott peck etc you should have predicted it!
after you have excluded anyone nominally Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, otherwise religious ... how many people are going to be left

He is a practicing Christian not a nominal Christian. True - the non-religiously affiliated are in the minority in this world. Given the number of believers, surprising that spirits don't affect more lives, huh?
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and Spiritualism

Post07 Apr 2009

terry wrote:He is a practising Christian not a nominal Christian.

He "was" at some point ... but he is dead now. Do you really, honestly, know anything about his practise, beliefs or professional standing? I can point you towards a whole heap of Christians that refute as acceptable because they think he was in league with the devil.

In a sense, its the same dynamic being played out from your point of view ... except in your case, its "the devil" of spiritualism. Oh, hold on, that's the same devil as those Christian believe in!

"Christian" is a fairly broad church that might be applied to any Anglo-Saxon from Vladivostock to Anchorage (the long way around) ... or at least the god of the BK does.

Surely his quite exemplary professional status and experience rise above simple prejudices?
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Terry

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and Spiritualism

Post07 Apr 2009

All I know of Scott Peck is one of his earlier books, which I appreciated immensely. He did not mention spirits in that one.

I'll just reiterate - I do not deny the phenomena (facts or situations that appear to exist or happen, whose causes or explanations are in question). I think the explanations are too mutable - dependent on and reflective of the faith & the culture.

Hey, if you are right, maybe they - the disembottled ones - are the keepers of the karmic accounts you've asked about so often. They are just low level karmic accountants!
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and Spiritualism

Post10 Apr 2009

OK! We have a dedicated topic now ... good.
terry wrote:Hey, if you are right, maybe they - the disembottled ones - are the keepers of the karmic accounts you've asked about so often. They are just low level karmic accountants!

Yes, its funny but the Karma question ... to which you are adding the element of "Akashic Records", of which I have no idea except what the theory is, just carries on.

The other element you raise here in humour is "where do dead people/spirits go?".

In Brahma Kumarism, there is no room for other "spirit worlds" and souls - except for conveniently 'elevated' BKs - are meant to reincarnate immediately. But, at the same time, within the folk lore element of BK-ism there is much talk of haunted houses, spirits possessing BKs and even being exorcised by senior BKs.

Within orthodox spiritualism, as with many orthodox religions, there are many "spirit worlds". Within the West, Emanuel Swedenborg's writings are probably the best account of these, although I suspect you would discount him because he once went to church and they were within a Christian framework. He teachings/writings/revelations were, however, far from the Christianity of his age. He was though a highly respect scientist and engineer of his time, highly respected and highly rewarded within society for his material.

I can imagine there is a hell realm just above the one reserved for lawyers especially for low level accountants. Swedenborg's writings are much about travels to these other "realms" and the discussions and intercourse he had there with various kinds of spirit beings. I also remind readers of the other interesting books on the topic; The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts by Joe Fisher.

Little has been written about the phenomenon from an analytical point of view. You get the zealots on one one of the seesaw and the skeptic on the other. I think terry makes the mistake here of assuming I am a "believer", pushing a belief when I am not. All I am saying is that it needs to be accepted as stated and examined closely ... not knee jerked over.

I can see this discussion going in two directions;

    1) documenting and discussing spiritualism within the Brahma Kumarism and,
    2) the nature and existence of spiritualism itself (or not).
I think it is only fair to discuss alternative explanations but that those alternative views are also detailed, e.g. if souls and spirits do not exist, WHERE do the "paradigms" or archetypes exist, how do these things happen and, in general, WHO is doing the thinking and acting.

The latter might be best taken off to another topic, to terry's "no soul" equation.
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Terry

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post10 Apr 2009

ex-l wrote:The other element you raise here in humour is "where do dead people/spirits go?".

Geez, I wish I had more time ... There is an old Chinese Buddhist saying - that speaking of a separate soul is something like - "speaking of the child of a barren woman" - that is to say, it is a conception only and unrealistic.

There is another paradox buster from Buddhism (disliked by Vedantists - and Gyan seems totally ignorant of Buddhism) - "the eye cannot see itself" (which has that nice ambiguity with the "I"). That's to say that anyone who thinks that they see any part of themselves as separate is kidding themselves. That is, the self is a totality, and only a fool confuses the conceived "parts' as having actual independent being.

An individual's existence is both subject and object, the grasper and the grasped, the measured and the measurer (I am using English words for Pali or Sanskrit ones here). Neither exists without the other. Because we can conceive it, does not make it so. You may know Protagoras's edict from the 3rd century BC, "man is the measure of all things". Etymologically "man" is from the sanskrit for mind, i.e. "man". "Matter" and "measure" connect back to the sanskrit "Matra" (which also roots the word "matre" which became "mother").
e.g. if souls and spirits do not exist, WHERE do the "paradigms" or archetypes exist, how do these things happen and, in general, WHO is doing the thinking and acting.

The matrix is a generation of the mind, like a paradigm, that enables the grasper to get a handle on, or relate to, the grasped. A paradigm is an analogy (Life is lived in analogue, not digital!). The mind, seeking to become fully conscious, needs a paradigm or analogy - "chit" needs "chettana" - to interact in life. Archetype is the name for primal patterns, matrices, that we instinctively utilise to make sense of what we experience, and give form to what we want to express. If we do not exist, paradigms and archetypes do not exist.

This all sounds very intellectual, but if understood and lived by, it creates a whole different sensation in life. My experience is of immediacy, fullness, presence. Conversely, you could say that if you actually live life by such an approach, then the words make sense.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post10 Apr 2009

This is, of course, the great classical division of philosophies argued over much wiser souls that we and dismissed with one Kung Fu flick of the BK wrist as; "Bhakti ... the path of ignorance ... stumbling in darkness".

However, whether to the Buddha or Shankaracharya, the driver, the car and the lampost are all one ... or not ... at our level of existence and awareness, if you crash your car into lampost you are going to hurt and wish you had not done. You can be very sure of that. If the duality is not very concrete, the lampost is. And then you will have to pay for it all.

What you have written reads as 'poetic' but dangerously close to the type of waffle meant to bamboozle the mind into accepting whatever suggestion is made at the end of it. As an aside, have you read any of ex-BK and Neo-Vedantist Robert Shudow's (aka Shunyamurti) line of thought since leaving the BKWSU and starting up his own ashram? Buddhism and Vedanta are for another topic.

If you read closely, my point regarding "spirit worlds" or "the afterlife" related only to BKs and the BK conception of the worlds where there exists obvious contradictions;

    They believe in ghosts but not a "ghost world".
    They believe in reincarnation but not somewhere to exist in between reincarnations nor a medium (matter) through which to move. Thrown them an anomaly as above (massive deaths during nuclear war), they have no answers of how such statistical blips in the reincarnation/rebirth model can be resolved.

Whether all this is true at an ultimately level of existence ... or not ... down at this level I am not you and you are not I and in amongst the cosmic soul we are dealing with other 'external' spiritual influences.

But, the question we are still waiting for from you is the "no soul ... no god equation", where these "paradigms" or archetypes exist and the mechanics by which they affect individuals.

At a personal level, this may be the difference between us; you are interested in the poetry and seduction, I am interested in the mechanics and highway code.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post22 Jul 2009

Just a quick clarification from regarding the topic called Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity. I was accused by Terry on another public forum from which I am banned from posting replies that I believing I have "a Greek Orthodox Priest as a spirit guide".

The actual quote comes from here: The influence of Catholicism etc on one's becoming a BK. Now, if it does not come across to you as a bit of a wind up (joke), you need reading glasses! Terry is anti-spiritualism. He does not believe in spirits now (despite following a spiritualist religion like the BK for decades) and wrote that he has a Greek Orthodox background. I thought he would have got the joke. The hint is I wrote, "read this as you will".
Count me out, I am afraid. I am not a Catholic and, apparently (read this as you will), I was told my spirit guide is from the Orthodox Church side. However, I consider myself to be an 'orthodox geek', not an Orthodox Greek, nor am I rushing to a conclusion on this line of thought.

I think there is a strong validity to this line of analysis, and its criticism of "preaching Christ Cruxified", "the blood of the lamb ... hellfire and brimstone" type Western Christian Churches. People should stop and think a little bit more about this.

What is my position on spiritualism?

I have absolutely no knowledge, faith or belief in having any spirit guides whatsoever. I have never heard ghosts speak (unless you believe in the Brahma Kumaris' BapDada ...), nor seen any. Nothing.

However, I respect that many millions of people gain solace from spiritualism and that, as a religion, it has influence the evolution of Western society, e.g. it was partly instrumental in the the early feminist movement and the emancipation of people of color and continues to be a voice of the oppressed. That is to be respected.

I also accept that there are considerable records of positive (proof of healing) and anomalous evidence relating to the field that science has still not put into place yet. I am not interested in the debate (skeptic versus believer) but I am interested in it from the anthropological point of view (how groups of people organize themselves or respond and react to each other).

My bottomline is one can never put one's faith, never mind wallet or life, into the hands of psychic mediums. No spiritualistic utterances I have ever heard of are 100% reliable but some might be more interesting and valuable to study (to help one think outside of one's box) than, say, sitting watching the TV all night or going to the football.
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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post03 Sep 2009

Just a quick quote from one of Jannisder's posts, here. Taken from a "class" given by the BKWSU's primary spiritualist medium of their god spirit BapDada.
Dadi Gulzar – 1 September 2009 (pm) – Om Shanti Bhavan - Merge Baba in your heart

In the early days Sisters would go into trance and the soul of a princess would come. That soul would not understand anything of the confluence; she would only understand the things of happiness.

In the early days of the BKWSU, many Brahma Kumaris would go into trance, be completely possessed by a spirit, who they would then interpret as being a person from the Golden Age. The paradise they reckon is going to take place after the world has been purified by a Nuclear Holcoaust.

In fact, according to their philosophy, the Brahma Kumaris were being possess by spirits who were actually 'themselves' reborn in the future ... work that one out!!! Not just spirit possession and mediumship from 'beyond the grave' but 'spirit possession and mediumship' from the future 'back in time'. Physically, according to time and space, how do you work that one out?

If one accepts possession and spiritualism as real, that is deceased or disincarnate individuals do exist and can possess the bodies of the living to speak and act through them, a simpler answer could be that is was just another spirit, even a deluded spirit, and the BKs were being deceived. As a well respect Tibetan Dzogchen teacher once said, "Just because someone is dead, does not mean they are enlightened", to which I would add ... or even honest.

If you don't believe in spirit possession and spiritualism, then how do we account for this? Fairystories, hyperventilation, some chemical reaction ... does one's future - or 5,000 year past - self exist already in time?

Many BKs will have seen senior Brahma Kumaris putting on such sideshow to encourage their faith. Little Mohini in Madhuban will often claim to be possessed ... by who was it, Krishna or some other deity? ... and prance about.

Does anyone have any reports or impressions that they can share?
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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post03 Sep 2009

Very good post ex-l!

Yes, we heard those stories of the Sisters going in trance in the beginning, experiencing Golden Age scenes, etc. I have never been impressed by that. It seems quite childish to me and, at the best, useless. Could in fact be quite damaging as one could start believing in the reality of it, develop some ego out of it, someone else gets impressed or feels inferior because not having the same kind of experience. All things opposite to true spirituality in my opinion.

I also heard of Little Mohini being supposedly possessed by the spirit of Krishna. What a circus that was apparently! First, how could that be when we are told that the spirit of Krishna is actually Brahma Baba's soul and is supposed to currently be in his subtle body in the Subtle Region? And, frankly, the way she behaves had nothing to do with Brahma Baba's personality, or with what most of us would imagine of a Golden Age personality.

So what is all that? Although I do not discard it completely, I still have difficulty to swallow the spirit possession theory. I am more comfortable with the "Fairystories, hyperventilation, some chemical reaction ..." concept ... self created illusion, or collectively created illusion. That is the best I can come up with to explain the origin and development of Brahma Kumarism, how Lekhraj Kirpalani used to think he was God and all those people believed it, and how he one day he switched his mind to it being Shiva speaking through him and everyone around just accepted it etc. And now we are told all kind of funny stories about "Avyakt" Dadi Prakashmani who is reborn into a young boy and comes to the Subtle Regions every morning for Amrit Vela ... and everyone goes "Yes, Yes!". It is like they all lost their common sense.

I have nothing to back this up, just gut feelings and some past experiences with spiritualist groups (long before my BK days), that left me doubtful about the reality of it all. I may share more on this at some point.
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rayoflight

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post03 Sep 2009

ex-l wrote:Does anyone have any reports or impressions that they can share?

ex-l, in the very first thread I contributed to when I joined the forum, called Today is a Blessed Day, I responded to your question below:
ex-l wrote:Could you explain "royal" and your other experiences as time allows? Obviously that term is a BK-ism.
rayoflight wrote:To respond to your question, I use the term "royal" because while I was in trance I saw my body take on a new position, like a a queen or a princess, with the kind of poise and grace that we ascribe to royalty in fairy tales. Whilst being in that pose, I remember feeling a stillness inside that was neither peace nor did it fit any other virtues that we have labelled such as love, kindness, compassion etc. I just was. And I was able to observe everything around me from an feeling of "elevation" as though I were a bird on a wire taking in the scenery. And what I saw from that point of view were children playing.
bkti-pit wrote:Yes we heard those stories of the Sisters going in trance in the beginning, experiencing Goden Age scenes, etc. I have never been impressed by that. Seems quite childish to me and at the best useless. Could in fact be quite damaging as one could start believing in the reality of it or develop some ego out of it or someone else gets impressed or feels inferior because not having the same kind of experience. All things opposite to true spirituality in my opinion.

With all due respect to your opinions, it was precisely this attitude that I encountered with the BKs that caused me the most damage. When I went into trance, I was scared. I sought help and I got jealousy in return. If something does not happen to you, it does not mean it is not real for someone else.

In any case, whether it has anything to do with spirituality or not is not the point anymore. My greatest lessons in spirituality occurred in real life, not while I was in trance. But the true test of humanity was revealed during these experiences, when I realized that Brahmins were moving away from spirituality rather than closer to any kind of enlightenment.

Thank you for bringing this up. It reminded me once again of the hell I went through.
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alladin

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post03 Sep 2009

I got jealousy in return. If something does not happen to you, it does not mean it is not real for someone else.

This base emotion called jealousy is very common amongst BKs. I can relate to what you said, because my "Honeymoon Period " was very powerful and lasted for a long time. I was naive enough to share my Amrit Vela experiences, bliss and realizations with others. I did not do it for ego, for me it was simply an exciting proof that God existed and that it was possible to have an enjoyable subtle relationship with him. I was getting a lot of company and protection from the Guardian Angel!

Very soon I hit the tough reality that the majority of BK "angels" envied my Flying Stage and were saying and doing nasty things that felt like missiles aimed to shoot my plane down. So I had to fly higher, and eventually change route. It is possible that these pseudo yogis sisters-in-charge and SS, which are more like politicians, business people and bureaucrats, are puzzled by metaphysical experiences of yogis and they think that we made them up.

Another nonsense: they sell something they themselves have never even tried!
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rayoflight

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post03 Sep 2009

Wow, powerful post alladin.

I cannot tell you how many times my enthusiasm was shot down by a jealous Brahmin. And then they have the audacity to teach about enthusiasm?!

Everything you say is what I have experienced myself. It's like in the world outside of the BK cocoon, some people are lucky and receive things that others have to work their whole lives to get. In this strange spiritualist cult, the magic carpet ride is what deep down everyone wishes for because they think it means that Baba loves them more.

You know the story about Cinderella and the wicked stepsisters and stepmother? An innocent girl arrives with nothing and wants nothing. The Sisters and mother are petty, jealous and mean and have calculated ambitions. They exploit her and treat her badly, but at the end of the fairytale, Cinderella gets everything. (Cinderella can be male or female).

Another possibility is that perhaps since the first three chakras are generally shut down from following the BK principles (first: material survival; second: relationships; third: self-esteem) Brahmins lose touch with human/social interaction. Here is a list of the problems that can arise from a blocked second chakra (a chaka is an energy point in the body):

Emotional or mental issues: out of touch with feelings, overly emotional or stoic, poor boundaries with other people as well as poor emotional boundaries, overt sexuality, excessive attachment, frustration, a tendency to be manipulative, sexual problems or dysfunction, fear of intimacy, inability to feel pleasure, emotional repression, fear of change or inability to change, feelings of guilt, lack of emotional energy or emotional explosiveness.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post04 Sep 2009

rayoflight wrote:... it was precisely this attitude that I encountered with the BKs that caused me the most damage. When I went into trance, I was scared. I sought help and I got jealousy in return.

Thank you for bringing this up. It reminded me once again of the hell I went through.

Please allow me to capture that in a snapshot for just a moment.

Now, here we have examples from both sides of the psychological spectrum where the BKWSU ... despite advertising itself a the Divine, Godly, Spiritual University ... fails absolutely.

    • On one hand, we have adherents having mental breakdowns. Real life, no question of doubt about it, full blown mental or nervous breakdowns ... and when they do, the leadership really has no clue what caused them or how to deal with them. And they are not discussed.

    • On the other, we have adherents having real life, full blown, trance, psychic, spiritualistic experiences ... and when they do, the leadership really has no clue what caused them or how to deal with them. And they are not really discussed beyond the small degree where they are useful for the sake of business.
Of course, such experiences are desired ... even lusted after. Of course, they are "evidence" of it all being real. I have no idea how it must have felt for others who were "outside of the honeypot" but it is basic human psychologic - especially of women I have to say - to be jealous of others. And I have no doubt at all those experience were real.

    So what were they?
When I "gave myself" to the BKWSU, I thought I was going to learn all about all this stuff ... not become a corporate PR person and "serve" at corporate and political PR entertainment events. I thought I was actually going to learn 'the spirit', chakras, other realms, psychism, how things worked metaphysically. They said they were a "Spiritual University". I thought there would be teachers of all that sort of stuff. At that point, I came from a yogi mystic background and was seeking the truth.

What a bad joke ... For any newcomers to the BKWSU reading this ... forget it. They don't know. They don't teach. They have not a clue. They would not know what a chakra was if one hit them on the head and if you crack up, they will chuck you out and, despite you giving your all to them, send you back to your physical family to be dealt with.

Ultimately, but theoretically, I have to agree with bkti-pit. Yes, every great teacher and school says that true spirituality is above "psychicism" (or spiritualism) ... but one would have to know, understand and be able to deal with it when it arose. Not just pretend to. So why not proper discussion and documentation?

One reason could be that some of the very biggest BKs, and many "teachers", are just not having any experiences. It is just all in their head.

Funnily enough, this was also a point made by ex-member Sparkal who used to have very deep and profound experiences, yet was not the "perfect BK" and, ultimately, was outcast by the BKWSU to deal with it all by himself.
bkti-pit wrote:I also heard of Little Mohini being supposedly possessed by the spirit of Krishna. What a circus that was apparently! First, how could that be when we are told that the spirit of Krishna is actually Brahma Baba's soul and is supposed to currently be in his subtle body in the Subtle Region? And, frankly, the way she behaves had nothing to do with Brahma Baba's personality, or with what most of us would imagine of a Golden Age personality.

At the most basic level, is it just a "corporate payoff"?

Gulzar gets God to act as a medium for, Janki gets the business to run, Big Mohini get the Americas, Jayanti gets the Dalai Lama and all the other VIPs ... what is in it for Little Mohini? So she gets to have Lekhraj Kirpalani as Krishna come in her to sustain her status?

I never saw this particular sideshow happen. Others have talked about it to me. They say it is child-like and embarrassing, especially as she is a little old woman and hugely overweight. It sounds like bad Bollywood. So, what is it?

Sure, spiritualism is often bunk. But, on the other hand, channeling and mediumship of deceased or otherwordly souls, is common all across India and the world. Why does it HAVE to be Krishna? I mean ... who has the accurate "Krishna-ometer" to check!?!

And what of the logic you mention, what they are suggesting is that Lekhraj Kirpalani, who is currently in the Subtle Regions but is also at the same in the future, comes back to the past? If it is "Lekhraj Kirpalani as Krishna from the future", then what is Krishna in the future doing when he goes back in time!?! It is becoming as confusing as Heroes.
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alladin

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Post04 Sep 2009

One reason could be that some of the very biggest BKs, and many "teachers", are just not having any experiences. It is just all in their head.

Yes, and we know that if something stays on the head level it remains on the surface. There's no inculcation nor transformation.

If BKs could just stick to something simple, such as being loving and peaceful and I mean becoming ... being ... not just lip service, they would deserve the name of "Spiritual University" which is, as you say, is a deceptive title they gave to themselves!!!
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