Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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starchild

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Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post29 Apr 2009

terry wrote:Are they hypocrites and/or corrupt because they have "the truth" but don't live up to it?
Are they fraudsters who know they do not have the truth but peddle it as such?
Or are they as deluded as any other "structured" faith", believing as best they can but leaving havoc in their wake?

Terry, I find it hard, although not completely impossible, to believe that the BKs are hypocrites or fraudsters. I did not think they were quite so cynical. I would more go for the 'deluded; leaving havoc in their wake' explanation.

I know this topic is the absolute truth but, Terry, did you feel as damaged as some of the people whose stories I have read here? Of course, the sensible thing to do is to "Move On". But could seem like that 'snap out of it' which is so unhelpful for those who are depressed or distressed. I know that is not what you intended and, for sure, your take will be helpful for some.

Other thing is that, for some people, the spiritual aspect is very important; just as, for others, it may be the intellectual or the physical, eg. good food etc. So, for those people, I think the sense of spiritual betrayal and loss can be immense.

Although, of course, contentment and enjoyment in day to day life is a wonderful thing too.
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ex-l

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post30 Apr 2009

starchild wrote:Terry, I find it hard, although not completely impossible, to believe that the BKs are hypocrites or fraudsters. I did not think they were quite so cynical. I would more go for the 'deluded; leaving havoc in their wake' explanation.

Oh boy ... stick around and read some more. I think all of us went through that stage but the longer you follow the forum the more your eyes are open and you start to see. I am really sorry but, as far as the leadership is involved, hypocrisy and fraud is the word.

I was just hearing about some recent legal action started by a foreign BK Sister against one of BK Nirwair's BK property developer mates in India. Early on the forum, we had another case where a long-term British-based BK lost thousands in another property related scam Then there was that BK who ran off with a load of money ... not to mention all of the historical revision and re-writing they have been up to (failed predictions of Destruction, no God Shiva until after 1950) and Dadi Janki's debunking at never having been "The Most Stable Mind in the World" ... the business of the Wills.

So much of it has been faked up for so long ... well meaning delusion cannot account for all that and all that we do not even know about.

Terry

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post30 Apr 2009

starchild wrote:Of course, the sensible thing to do is to "Move On". But could seem like that 'snap out of it' which is so unhelpful for those who are depressed or distressed.

Trouble with these forums is no single sentence or post can carry all that one thinks or has said before. I agree with you, of course, and there's lots written here about that. It is important though to show there are ways of living happily that don't require "seeking for truth". Especially if you've done a fair bit of that already ...
<< Ecclesiastes 3 >> - King James Version wrote:To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

You may prefer this version by The Byrds

starchild

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post30 Apr 2009

ex-l, you say that you all have been through that stage re: fraudsters as opposed to deluded, so I hope my comments are not tedious. You see, that would suggest to me that they do not believe the teachings. And, if they do not, what would be their motive?

I suppose you could say power; and that the accumulation of vast wealth would bring that but that, in itself, is a bit mental and deluded, is it not? The other thing is so many of these people got involved in this from a very young age that they themselves could be seen as victims to some extent?? Although, of course, being a victim does not in my opinion excuse further wrongdoing.

Terry. Nice verses and nice video. Did you notice the peacock feather image at the back of the stage? Now what does that remind me of?
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ex-l

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post01 May 2009

To the Vaishnavites, I think the peacock feather is a symbol of romantic love; hence Krishna wearing them in his turban. In the ancient myths of Egypt, Greece, and Rome; the peacock's feather was a symbol of the ‘evil eye’ and foretold death.
starchild wrote:ex-l, you say that you all have been through that stage re: fraudsters as opposed to deluded, so I hope my comments are not tedious. You see, that would suggest to me that they do not believe the teachings. And, if they do not, what would be their motive?

No, I meant the stage of not wishing to look at, or believe, the preponderance of evidence which suggests that the leadership are knowingly rolling a cart of manure down the high street of life liberally recycling it through the mouths and minds of their followers, modifying the recipe to suit circumstance in their interest ... which appear, to me, to be increasingly blatantly orientated towards the sustenance of money and power and you state.

Believe it or not, independent observers often questioned me for my rose tinted view of the BKWSU and its leadership. I used to defend them and wanted "to see the good" in them. Amazingly, the position I now take has been arrived at through years of slowly, persistent work documenting and researching the history, major and minor incidents and many people's experiences. Mine's is not the kneejerk position of a "religious apostate" as certain elements like to put down ex-cult members.

One of the most difficult hurdles a number people (of) had to overcome, was excepting that we were suckered into a "cult". The C-Word has been one of hot debate on this forum. Of course, we remember how written into "The Knowledge" was that the Brahma Kumaris were not a cult or -ism as "cults and -ism" were only tiny little minor twigs at the very top or end of The Tree. The Brahma Kumaris proudly announced THEY were not a cult, THEY were the roots of The Tree. You will remember.

It has taken me, and probably others, a long time to accept that the Brahma Kumaris are just another -ism ... Brahma Kumarism. Partly because they ARE, and partly because Brahma Kumarism has diverged in many ways from its original path. This is one of its paradoxes. Brahma Kumarism is no longer Brahma Kumarism, so what it is and where has it diverged? Dadi Jankism, Brian Baconism (only a couple of years ago, he was thought to be The One "to reveal Baba to the World"), PBKism ...? You tell me.

It would actually be quite a possible and interesting project to sit down and document it all ... IF ... you have the time or someone would pay you to do it. My guess they wont because they want to cover it all up and not distract from the tidy business at hand.

That business has moved on from the 70 or so unskilled and uneducated (but well connected), Sindi women having to ponce for some money to life off when Lekhraj Kirpalani's cash finally ran out in the 1950s/60s. Its now a multi-national corporation sucking property and funds out of rich sponsors (and an unpaid serf caste); selling "products", and looking to governments and business for co-sponsorship deals.

Terry

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post01 May 2009

starchild wrote:Terry. Nice verses [from Ecclesiastes] and nice video. Did you notice the peacock feather image at the back of the stage? Now what does that remind me of?

Yes, a realistic rather than idealistic philosophy. The idea if it was missed, is that there is a time for spiritual reflective life, and a time for living outwardly. Traditionally, the younger life is more outwardly lived, and then we become more reflective as we grow older.

Most of us gave our younger more (re?)productive years to that inner life, and when we leave, there can be a sense of waste or lost time (not always conscious) which drags on us, like an energy imbalance; being "out of season" if you like. Hence my instigations to "get living", to rebalance, and that to be further sacrificing "living" time, in trying to re-model a (similar) spiritual framework, can be digging the hole we're in even deeper. I think spiritual experience emerges from life (i.e. both are co-dependant) and life includes all the opposites. If you cut away half of life (as per the passages from the old testament) you cut away half of spirituality.

As for the peacock's tail - I nearly always visualise a peacock's fan tail shimmering when I hear John Lennon's "Across the Universe" ... which coincidentally was written as he became disillusioned with his guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and the song is full of the contradictory emotions felt and the ambiguous "nothing's gonna change my world" (lament or affirmation?)
ex-l wrote:Believe it or not, independent observers often questioned me for my rose tinted view of the BKWSU and its leadership. I used to defend them and wanted "to see the good" in them. Amazingly, the position I now take has been arrived at through years of slowly, persistent work documenting and researching the history, major and minor incidents and many people's experiences. Mine's is not the kneejerk position of a "religious apostate"

Interesting part of your history I did not know about. It took that detachment from the group firstly, and then that research, to go through those stages.

The idea of being self-deluded is a little different to being in denial (which has been discussed elsewhere as part of addictive or compulsive behaviour). Denial implies there is an unconscious recognition of something, but it is consciously dismissed or contradicted, because to face the reality threatens the ego. That which is suggested but denied is not denied dispassionately, it gives rise to defensiveness, counter attack, righteous anger. So, "Are they consciously genuine but really in denial?".

There are other possible questions that could be put along with the first three that the topic heading refers too.

starchild

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post01 May 2009

I get that you have come across a litany of suffering ex-l. I am very saddened by what I have read. Children being indoctrinated, and left to try and unravel it as adults is very bad. That is why I think to give support through the site is a great thing. Suffering in isolation is an intense nightmare.

I see that you have a lot of concern over the issues of fraudulent dealings. I am less concerned about that, although I can see that it is good to warn people. Perhaps because of personal experience, I would be much more concerned about lack of care and concern, especially in the psychological area.

Terry, yes, I understood the message in the Verse and Video. I do not consider myself an intellectual but I do consider myself intelligent.

There must be big time denial going on.

Do they believe they are God"s chosen, and perhaps that is how they justify the taking of people's money etc. They tell themselves that they are doing the people a favor, an investment in the Golden Age.

I think it must be very hard for anyone to denounce a belief they have invested their lifetime in, even if they are having doubts. And the whole culture in my experience was geared towards not protesting, not speaking out, (under the guise of "not spreading negativity") an insidious bullying that goes on in all walks of life. The one who attempts to point out that the emperor has no clothes is often turned on by the pack. Ostracized and ridiculed, so that the status quo is maintained and they can continue to reap whatever benefits it is that are being threatened.
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Mr Green

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post02 May 2009

The people running the Brahma Kumaris are technically a bunch of crooks, and they are fraudsters. This is irrefutable.

But many of the members in the lower Admin roles, and just about everyone else there, are decent people and not aware of the incongruencies in the history timeline, they just don't realise what they really are involved with.
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ex-l

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post02 May 2009

starchild wrote:I get that you have come across a litany of suffering ex-l. I am very saddened by what I have read.

I have had a few turning points ... sadly, I am 100% convinced that I have only scrapped the top of the surface and that the idiocy and corruption goes much further.

I mean, look at the lastest twist. 1976 was predicted by "Baba" in the Murlis to be the year for Destruction from about 1966 (I cant find the multiple Murli quotes but Arjun and Shivsena supplied it on this forum) ... and there you have Dadi Janki in charge of the nascent Western BKWSU buying their first freehold property in London with ... someone's money we presume.

Did it make any difference that Dadi Janki had lived through the period of WWII not being Destruction? And then 1950 not being Destruction?

    • Did she tell her sponsors and donors, or just take the money?
    • Why buy a Freehold property when the World is going end in the same year?
    • Does she tell the rich donors they chase around the world all this now?
Surely, she should have printed the leaflets telling the world God had come and dropped them from a helicopter just like Baba said in the Murlis instead!?!

If it is not plain and simple fraud, then it would surely be "undue influence" over individuals falsely led to believe she was the "Most Stable Mind in the World", one of the "Eight" top souls that BapDada is God and the world is about to end. Are we saying she is not conscious of the contradictions?
BKWSU wrote:The BKWSU recognizes the intrinsic spirituality and goodness of every being and helps people to rediscover that goodness within them, encouraging and facilitating the development of spiritual awareness, attitudes, behaviors and skills through a process of lifelong learning.

Terry

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post02 May 2009

Offtopic:
starchild wrote:Terry, yes, I understood the message in the Verse and Video. I do not consider myself an intellectual but I do consider myself intelligent.

Not intended to imply that - when I write, even in response to a particular person, I am conscious of other readers, and there's many whose English is not a first language. I re-read my posts and if they don't seem as clear as I thought they were when written, I will attempt to clarify, and in this case, I was leading in to add another point on the topic.


Back on topic - I agree fully with your point of view in your last post starchild.
Mr Green wrote:The people running the Brahma Kumaris are technically a bunch of crooks, and they are fraudsters. This is irrefutable

By saying "technically", it is implied that it is not obvious even to them, something in the letter of the law rather than in the spirit of the law. Here we have a group of art activists who technically breach the law frequently, e.g. they built a colourful gazebo in a dull city square bypassing council and building requirements etc, but popular support usually means their actions/creations get to stay. They believe they are making the world a better place and that 'normal" rules are counter-productive to that goal.

Not sure if I mentioned this one before but I remember Brij Mohan in Delhi, put up as a "Dada" when I was a young BK, telling us in a class that it was not only acceptable to steal stationery from one's employers to do "service" with (he was a public servant, I believe, at the time and was talking about staples, paper, pens, paper clips etc) but it was actually good to do that, because there is so much waste in the public service and, anyway, others steal for personal greed, and so on.

Even at the time I thought it sounded like self justification, trying to convince himself of the "morality" of his actions. That's the symptom of denial I mentioned earlier - couldn't admit to himself that he was a petty thief, so gets defensive, accusatory (of the other petty thieves, they're the real thieves), shifty eyes watching how we were reacting to his statements ...
ex-l wrote:1976 was predicted by "Baba" in the Murlis....and there you have Dadi Janki in charge of the nascent Western BKWSU buying their first freehold property in London

I got to London in 1977. What's unusual is how a major issue like 'the end of the world' was always treated as a petty issue not worth going into at any length. It's one thing to live by the philosophy of "Live each day as if it could be your last", and quite another to say "Destruction is definite and unavoidable" . There was the zeitgeist of the Cold War, and the awareness of environmental breakdown, overpopulation etc. A lot of backroom discussion by the plebs, but no official action (like warn the authorities) other than to use it as a tool of conversion to the faith.

Probably a good thesis for a social psychologist's PhD.
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ex-l

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post09 Sep 2009

BKs ... repeat after me

    Our gurus are not gurus ... no, "our gurus are not gurus" ... really.
Brahma Kumari 'we-are-not-Gurus' Gurus

bk-gurus.jpg

An honest Guru

guru.jpg
guru.jpg (22.76 KiB) Viewed 16677 times

So, honestly, what is the difference ... except that the real guru could sit without anyone holding them up straight (see the "perfected" Dadi Prakashmani above)? Actually, the real gurus have LESS flowers!

It is all just a manipulation and abuse of individuals' sincere but habitual religious conditioning ... and a waste of money. But, they are not gurus. Right?

(Mental note: do not become a guru ... become a florist instead. Gurus come and go but florists will always be in demand!)
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alladin

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10 for the price of one

Post09 Sep 2009

Yes, all along they advertise themselves as a Spiritual University where everyone is equal (we are all souls) and there's only one true - Satguru. Here the confusion starts for any sane person. At first they conceal the mediumship business, then when your brain is ready having received had a nice pre-wash, they push on you Dadi Gulzar through which the combined form of the departed guru founder and the Supreme Shiva speaks :shock:. Then you realize that only black sheep refuse not to worship the Dadis ... :sad:.

In the end, for the same money, in the BKs we get more gurus, more variety, compared to other sects, self calling Yoga schools, etc ... :D. So, it's a good deal, after all!
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Mr Green

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post13 Sep 2009

It was indeed a big step for me, the day I realised that Jayanti Bhen did not have faith in Gyan. She really does not believe in The Cycle, that everything is good and is happening the same as last time etc.

When I saw this, I knew something was wrong.

bkti-pit

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post13 Sep 2009

Mr Green wrote:It was indeed a big step for me the day I realised that Jayanti Bhen did not have faith in Gyan

I never heard about this. Any more detail you would share with us?
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Mr Green

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Re: Hypocrites, fraudsters or deluded?

Post13 Sep 2009

There were many instances, but this one in particular was around 1998. In the Avyakts that season, it was claimed you could become perfect this year (it says something to that effect every year).

Jayanti took a class and said hands up who thinks this is possible. There was a splattering of hands but most obviously did not think it was possible, including Jayanti and she said so. Someone told Janki about it and Jayanti was told off on stage at GCH the following Sunday morning for lack of faith, and spreading lack of faith to others.

But it was more a general realisation, as I saw more and more how she was running things with all the deceit and trickery that it went against the Murli directions. I realised then she was frustrated with it all.
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