Any former BK in New Zealand?

I was contacted recently by a media rep from New Zealand looking to do a story on cults. The initial request concerned a different cult, but the person who contacted me is interested in other groups and former members in NZ. Anyone interested, please let me know via PM or in this thread.

Thanks,

Peter

Hi Peter,

Good to see you here again. I don't know anyone in NZ but sure someone will come forward. Good luck with the article and let us know OK? Go and kick some ass!!

Love and light,

Jan

I live in New-Zealand but have no intention of replying. I don't consider the BKs to be a dangerous cult at all. In fact, I see the Catholic church being far more dangerous. I have no axes to grind with them at all.

C.

You don't need to do it to grind an axe. You can do it honestly to just start a dialogue.

I would agree that the whole "cult" debate in the media is polarized into "culties" versus "anti-culties" and feeds off conflict. That, in general, it has a fairly simplistic view of things. But it is good for people to at least know the facts and then make up their own minds.

Leading on from that, and food for another topic somewhere else, I wonder how the BK and post-BK experience has affected individuals' views of 'all religions'.

Why would I want to start a debate? I was quite happy with my BK experience. I could only say good things - OK, the odd funny thing here and there but, generally, good. I only left because of me - not them. I also feel that at any time I could go back. Not that I would since I am more of a complete atheist nowadays and don't see much in any religion. My BK experience was a good one though.

TV companies have a habit of blowing things out of proportion to get a good story. As for Porridge - I have seen his Youtube claptrap. It's not like the BKs ever lock you up in chains - you are free to come and go as you please.

C.

Argue the case for them then ... I used too. I used to defend the whole cult experience on the basis of it being a mask that people chose to pick up and wear, i.e. a pre-made temporary personality complete with social world and life, whilst they made changes to their real personality that that were unhappy with. I suspect others just do it to try out another's life before chosing to return back to their own realising that it was not that bad. But I do worry for those that get hooked and lose a lot of money, their property etc and those not 'in on the gravy train' that are hitting retirement now with no pension, savings or healthcare.

I don't know how deep you were in and for how long but the really embarassing lasting thing, for those that were in deep earning their Golden Age fortune, is trying to deal with the gap in one's CV when applying for jobs etc. "Cult membership" is right down there with mental illness and prison sentences as far as most employers go.

We were not encouraged to leave our jobs. We were more useful with jobs than without! It was mostly the people who did not have jobs, or much prospect of one, who ended up still without one and then blamed the BKs. Ditto for people with bad relationships - they split up. Yes, there were some bad things - getting up early in the morning in a freezing cold climate - but farmers do it!

How big a survey are we talking about here? How many people are in the BKWSU is New Zealand?

If you put all the broken families and relationships surrounding the BKWSU down to the fact that they must have been "bad" beforehand ... I'd ask you whether you are on drugs or have gone back in and joined them.

Imagine yourself on the other side of a partnership with someone going through the Honeymoon Period, getting up at 4am to stare at an old Indian man and ranting on about Destruction ... I knew one such woman who used to dress up with gloves and socks to go to bed in case her non-BK husband touched her skin at night 'enflaming passions', or wash and change all her clothes if he accidentally brushed past her.

In my time and our center, we were certainly discouraged from further education, dedicating ourselves to a career, encouraged to find crap jobs in order to leave our "intellects free to remember Baba" and make us available to do "more service" ... nevermind all the lifestyle changes that would dissociate anyone from the rest of society. And, of course, the doing of "more service" excluded the doing of all the other stuff that helps one get ahead.

Come on ...

How big a survey are we talking about here? How many people are in the BKWSU is New Zealand?

There does seem to be different cultures in different countries. A lot depends on the personality and values of the "in charge" and the expectations they promote. A lot of the issues are to do with baggage from brahminism/hinduism (inevitable given the Gyan and its source). Where the in-charge has a wider view or broader experience of the world, the problems are not as pronounced.

Of the Western countries, the UK BKSWU and its feifdoms in particular seem to have gone through more pronounced forms of dogmatic & cultist tendencies due to the prevalence of large numbers of moneyed Indian merchants and professionals, and the baggage of the in-charges. The vast sums involved certainly seem to have corrupted the raison d'etre of the BKs. This in turn promotes similar behaviour in the countries the UK is in charge of. We could speculate how different it all would be if another personality was in charge rather than DJ, but that's irrelephant.

In my time and our center, we were certainly discouraged from further education, dedicating ourselves to a career, encouraged to find crap jobs in order to leave our "intellects free to remember Baba" and make us available to do "more service" ... nevermind all the lifestyle changes that would dissociate anyone from the rest of society. And, of course, the doing of "more service" excluded the doing of all the other stuff that helps one get ahead.

I'd second that, particularly for the UK and others under their sway. In India, studying for civil service exams or university degrees seemed to be encouraged, and seen as 'serviceable". This was a difference between Kumarka and Janki. Kumarka would often say that people should live lives and make decisions as if Destruction wasn't going to happen, whereas Janki always promoted the compromised approach based on, "time is short, don't waste it on anything other than service, effort etc" .

I wonder what our Indian members think?

I meant to add that being unemployed, or being in receipt of benefits, was also a big taboo ... despite it being a fact of life in the modern world.

I do not know how much "government sponored service" went on or how this translated across the racial divides to the Hindi class. I don't know if, say, family benefits were taken but unemployments not or what the financial status of "surrendered BKs" were.

Does Janki Kripalani get a pension and have a bus pass? Bus pass?! Good God, she does not travel by public transport.

To me, this part of the conversation underlines the need for an independent voice or media within the BK movement so that BKs in far flung corners of the Empire can know that there are differences. Perhaps they can never accept a voice as critical as ours but I hope, at least, it will inspire someone 'inhouse' to develop their own.

As the BK Empire interfaces with the rest of reality, it is another good reason to promote informed discussion through any channel in my opinion. I am reminded of old war time posters ... but in reverse.

Not Talking Our Can Cost Lives

Not_Talking_Can_Cost_Lives.jpg (35.55 KiB) Viewed 17244 times

Yes, you guys have been taught some twisted knowledge indeed! I was told that it is far better for a BK to be a head person because he then has more influence over others. Makes sense of course. We were never encouraged to leave jobs - they needed money so why would they do that?!

I did not do the 4AM thing a lot. Nobody cared in any case - it was up to the individual. I can only imagine that there are people with weak personalities that are getting taken advantage of by others. I expect they would have problems in or out of the BKs but I would have though the BKs would have known better. It's not an army camp!

C.

Yes, you guys have been taught some twisted knowledge indeed! I was told that it is far better for a BK to be a head person because he then has more influence over others. Makes sense of course. We were never encouraged to leave jobs - they needed money so why would they do that?! I did not do the 4AM thing a lot. Nobody cared in any case - it was up to the individual. I can only imagine that there are people with weak personalities that are getting taken advantage of by others. I expect they would have problems in or out of the BKs but I would have though the BKs would have known better. It's not an army camp!

I think it is a bit naive and unkind to assume people are taken advantage of because they have weak personalities. Some people just believe in what they are told and what they see. In the UK, people are encouraged and groomed to be surrendered, whether they know it or not.

I have some friends in New Zealand, ex-bks, who were surrendered. I have heard similar things from them about their time there. Maybe you were never really that deep into it Celtic?

Well, all of my BK stuff happened in the UK - not NZ. When I came here, I left the BKs forever. I doubt if I will go back but you never know. You would have to be pretty naive to swallow all the stuff they throw at you for sure.

I can say for sure that some people in this group have been ill-informed. For instance, the Brother that run the Leeds centre was a dentist. I did not see him becoming a toilet cleaner so he could remember Baba better! There has to be common sense with these things. I do know of a few people who were badly treated (nothing to do with Leeds by the way - just used it as an example) but no more so than they would have been in an average family. Falling out over things. As for me and how far in I was - I always resisted going the full hog as I never felt it necessary. It improved my life beyond belief more than I ever imagined as things were. Of course, I never believed the 5000 years stuff and even told the Sisters I did not and why. I did not disrupt class however - these were informal things.

I would have gone along with it more for respect than anything else. I did respect those who could go that extra mile but at the same time I felt they were burning their bridges a little. The BKs are great but you need to keep them under control! If there was anybody anywhere I could trust, it would be a BK.

C.

One question, if you were not making 4 in the morning, does that mean they did not have you doing the 7 Days Course teachings and other "service" run? It would be genuinely interesting to ask what your relationship with them was if you did not "believe". I am not asking you this to put you down but am just interested to understand how someone could go along with them despite not believing. Did you go to morning class every day too?

David Goodman was a dentist before he and his wife got into the BKWSU in Edinburgh. I dare say it was financially useful (dentists are a high and respectable paid profession) and financed his wife Maureen Goodman's daily upkeep as a "surrendered Sister", rise in the hierarchy and maintain the Leeds center. Of course the BKs would be all over him! What you see in that one case is typical of the type of double standards evident at that time, e.g. late 1970s and 80s, and the underline principles.

I would define those as; if you have social status already it is good and we will use it, money helps you find position and rise within the organization if you are not an old Sindi lady, and if you don't get a simple job and "earning unlimited inheritance" by becoming a seva serf (giving all your time in free labor for the organization). Wordly ambition was bad. Its funny but looking back, I realise now how 'straight' and status obsessed they were and wonder what an embarrassment the poor, hippier end of the BKWSU must have been for them to live with?

So, we were talking about being "uninformed" ... a) I am not so sure there is a "group" here (just individuals dropping by) and b) it sound like you are telling us to contradict our own experience on the basis of not really being 'in'. What happened to Ros (was it) and how many of the Brothers who shared a house in Leeds are still in Gyan?

I back Terry on this one, and yourself to the extent that one was encouraged to burn all bridges. To fully surrender any other ambitions or interest (even basic self-survival interest let allow career) had to go and one had to hand over everything to the Brahma Kumaris. Destruction was coming in a coupe of years (this was 25 years ago), if you did not follow the daily 4 o'clock, 6 o'clock routine and do additional service you considered a half-BK and would be subtley sidelined, e.g. people would not eat, or be allowed to eat the food you cooked, you would be regarded with a mix of pity and suspicion. "Not a real BK".

Funnily enough, my "don't get into business because it will pull your intellect away from Baba etc" comes directly from that jolly jellybean Maureen Goodman herself. Enough to get you to Madhuban and give 10% to "Baba", a simple job to leave your intellect free was the Shrimat. I am wondering right now if they viewed us with "caste eyes" as just shudras? I am sorry, but I know all this. What was the point in doing a degree when the world was going to end and you were not meant to read books etc?

I never questioned the whole financial aspect of the BKWSU at that time. Idiotically, I imagined that the likes of her status must be because of some wonderful benign that spiritual status she and the other middle management and local center-in-charges had ... not just because her, or their, husbands paid for their keep and they could work for free.

Funnily enough, the only interest any BK took in my then study/career projectory was when they discovered that it would bring me into contact with "famous people" so that I could "serve" them. Thank god I am out of that madhouse.

Maureen was one of the Sisters that I had a less than good experience of, I have to say. I became a little disappointed as I expected more from the leader - but then again I am judging!! Yes, I went to morning class but there were times I fell away and came back again. In fact, most people did - even the die-hards I saw absent for upto six months, and then they would return as if nothing had happened. Of course, I was told this and that, and that if I wasn't careful I would only make the end of the Silver Age! So what I thought - that would be fine in any case - I am not greedy!

I think the difference is that I know (knew) what the real BKs were all about - I met them the first time around about 1978 in Kilburn. I knew their techniques worked for sure and that there was something special going on. I did The Knowledge course twice - once in 1978 and again in 1995 (ish). Second time around I understood it better. I knew that there were things going on that were not supposed to be. I knew that all that mattered was the remembrance of Baba - point of light - embibing the virtues etc. When I heard of those grand things happening in London with so-called mics, I wondered what had happened.

For sure, they have sucumbed in many ways. However, despite this the message remains the same. Look beyond the failing of all the individuals from top to bottom and you still have the most peaceful of philosophies to live your life within. We all know that Christianity has nothing to do with people attending church, so in your heart you can still be a BK. Wah Baba wah! (Give us a break!)

The reason I was there was to learn ... simple as that. If there was some truth that might be beneficial, then so be it. When I was a kid I had to go to church but did not believe a word of it either. Keeps you off the streets! But I did practice being a point of light and did all the drishti stuff, and it seemed to work whether I believed in it or not!

I also found the positive thinking class beneficial and used to teach that one myself on the odd occasion. I found it hard when I came to the sanskars bit and the soul. To me, it was more theoretical - see yourself as a soul but maybe there is no such thing. However, if you detach yourself from the bad things then maybe it is a good philosophy.

C.