Honour Roll - suicide and death within the BKWSU

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Post15 Dec 2006

tinydot wrote:We have observed in animal kingdom a form of physical killing. I think in our case too, this got to do with the survival of the most fit. Fit in what sense? Fit in being able to rationalize and make decision for oneself. ... Strongly virtuous individuals with strong love for everyone will do "something" great to uplift the weak ones. Strongly vicious individuals will do anything to control everyone along their way.

I think that the animal kingdom is a good metaphor and do not deny what you say. But I would also present another reading of it.

A lion does not uplift an antelope. It devours it. It loves devouring fresh antelope. It preys upon them. And within the spiritual realm there are also those that devour others in many ways.

Perhaps "Spiritual Darwinism" IS the natural order in this world. That is, if you or your kind are not strong then it is better that you and your kinds are fed to the lions to make them stronger. This world more quickly rewards the voracious and self-centered. (I think sparkal is alluding to "spiritual predators" both within the BKWSU and society as a whole in his. It may be that Shiva is a ultimately a spiritual predator feeding off us or using us to feed off others energy).

Yes, I have also come to realize that life is a lesson in power, power over others, and the responsibility of power for those that chose that path over the path of love. Those that chose the path of power learn through association and experience. The BKs, guided by BapDada, seem to make a habit of seeking those in power and associating with them. Through being center and zone-in-charges, and "senior faculty members of the University", they learn lessons through experience. Sure they mess about with other people's minds and emotions during that process. They are only humans. They have institutionalized messing with people's minds that apparently does not seem to be entirely related to Shrimat and Murli. And, yes, in that learning process other individuals are hurt.

Let me ask a different question, in a war the general's send young men and women to a doomed (service) front, some those men and women are killed and others breakdown afterwards from PTS. Do the general have any degree of responsibility or was it the men and women's fault for being dumb and trusting enough to follow orders/Shrimat?

For those that like to check sources, there are notable cases of natural predators that give up eating others, Veggie lioness, Krishnananda's Kat. Little Tike is interesting because having suffered in the mouth of a natural predator, its own mother, it seemed to want to stop others sufffering.

What if one such lion was to meet with the other sort of lions above?
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tinydot

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Post15 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote:Let me ask a different question, in a war the general's send young men and women to a doomed (service) front, some those men and women are killed and others breakdown afterwards from PTS. Do the general have any degree of responsibility or was it the men and women's fault for being dumb and trusting enough to follow orders/Shrimat?

I believe in the Law of Karma and Reincarnation. If I know the full connection of all past life events then i would be able to say if the general have any degree of responsibility. I am talking with respect to absolute justice for everyone concerned.

However, we do not know anything for sure beyond this lifetime and so the apparent answer is Yes (he is partly responsible), and he may be brought up to legal justice.
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primal.logic

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Post15 Dec 2006

Apportioning degrees of responsibility, or blame, is an impossible exersize really. What I do know is that any organisation has a responsibility for duty of care of its members. As the BK's literally guarantee that if one follows Maryadas and Shrimat one will become pure, blissfull and karmateet, they have a responsibility to care for the people who accept that guarantee and make the effort.

Whether or not that individual has existing psychological issues or not the BK's are responsible to provide reasonable care. It is the nature of BK philosophy and its aims - the purification of sanskars - that brings it into the domain of psychology. Being introspective, examining ones thoughts and comparing them to a BK standard, brings a real psychological pressure to many people. It brings a whole new dimension of success and failure. And failure is the most probable outcome.

Basically, if you are going to f**k with someones head, you are responsible for the outcome. You therefore have to ensure that outcome is not going to result in trauma or death. Until now the BKs have not accepted responsibility on any level.
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ex-l

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Post15 Dec 2006

primal.logic wrote:Basically, if you are going to f**k with someones head, you are responsible for the outcome. You therefore have to ensure that outcome is not going to result in trauma or death. Until now the BKs have not accepted responsibility on any level.

I agree with this in sentiment and strenght;
    • To become a psychiatrist you need, what, 7 years training?

    • To become a psychologist, who don't really practise therapeutically on humans you need , what, 4 or 5 years?

    • To become a psychotherapist you need, what 2 or 3 or a degree than training and to be supervised?

    • Even to be a counsellor you need to do do a course, be therapized and then be accountable to some board and be licensed.
Not with Raja Yoga. And yet with Raja Yoga you are allowed to go and mess around with individuals minds at equally as deep or even deeper level. At least in traditional guru chela systems you have to stick around for years, may be 7 or more before they will allow you to go out and practise the tradition.

What were other individual's own experiences in being trained and let loose to teach Raja Yoga?
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tinydot

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Post15 Dec 2006

primal.logic wrote:Basically, if you are going to f**k with someones head, you are responsible for the outcome. You therefore have to ensure that outcome is not going to result in trauma or death. Until now the BKs have not accepted responsibility on any level.

I have your concurrence on this. And so whatever form of legal justice we need to do today, we have to to it. We accept responsibilty at its face value and implement ways to distribute it. Whatever outcomes we get, whether they pay damages or not as ordered by the judge, and we see it fair or unfair, we see the underlying principle of the Law of Karma if we believe on it.
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celtiggyan

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Post15 Dec 2006

I honestly don't see the problem here. If you don't like the BKs then you leave - simple. Nobody holds a gun to your head. I have known people coming and going for years and the BKs welcome them home each time.

I always remember the centre Sister saying to us that if we had an illness we go to the Doctor - don't expect Raj Yoga to fix everything in the body. If you need medication then take it. I am sure Dadi Janki needed medication at some point and maybe still does. I think some people get a 'Jesus' complex at the BKs and think they can cure all ills within themselves. It's purification of the Soul, the body part comes later (supposedly!) in the Golden Age.

C.
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ex-l

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Duty of care

Post15 Dec 2006

celtiggyan wrote:I honestly don't see the problem here. If you don't like the BKs then you leave - simple.

Ah, spoken like a true BK ... as primal said in three words, the issue is of "Duty of Care".

Not just the BKWSU's duty of care but our duty of care, one's duty to extend one's care to all society whether BK or not BK. Especially, where one has or feels a responsibility for having built up and created what the BK is today.

To give you an unfortunately example; if you attended a church where the priest might be virtuous and gifted but was also an obvious pedophile, would you "just leave - simple". Or might you alert others so that they be pre-warned, even blow the whistle to external authorities? Of course, you would. Well, some wound ... but some would not. Indeed, we had a case local to be where members of the orthodox community actually descended on the house of a family whose daughter had been abused and stone it ... because the child and family had brought shame on their society. That is a recent factual, documented event. In a sense, the BK family is dividing in just the same way; there are those still inside using all their virtues and gifts to promote it, 10 times as many who have fallen on walked away, a few very obvious silenced and voiceless victims of institutional abuse - but thankfully a tiny handful who have turned around to say, "no, it the abuse has to stop and some mechanism has to be put in place to ensure it does not happen again".

I agree that we are not talking about blaming the BKWSU for all one's whinges, one minor ache and pains that would have come one's way anyway. I, personally, am talking about very deep and serious institutionalized abuses by a minority of individuals over the majority persons. My duty of care extends to not just to previous victims but the future generations of individuals likely to be set up and processed by the BKWSU sausage machine.

As ludicrously and esoteric as it might sound, in my opinion this abuse starts with the hiding away and re-writing of truths and history that this minority within the BKWSU uses to sustain its position of power and influence. care starts with being a voice, even if it is just a questioning voice.

Even if you take the BK model, what sanskars have certain people brought in from 2,5000 years of practise? This question, I think, is what sparkal is raising in some of his posts. Pandits do not overnight stop being pandits, autocrats from being autocrats, psychopaths from being psychopaths ... in fact, I might suggest that they just refine their psychopathy with BK tech. You might even say victims do not over night stop from being victims. Their karma and just walk away from it ... may be you are right and I am wrong.

Here is a quote from something I have been reading recently, see book section, with one small obvious addition by myself;
Sam Harris wrote:Moderates do not want to kill anyone in the name of God, but they want us to keep using the word “God” as though we knew what we were talking about. And they do not want anything too critical said about people who really believe in the God of their fathers, because tolerance, perhaps above all else, is sacred. To speak plainly and truthfully about the state of our world - to say, for instance, that the Bible and the Koran ... the Murli ... contain mountains of life-destroying gibberish - is antithetical to tolerance as moderates currently conceive it. But we can no longer afford the luxury of such political correctness. We must finally recognize the price we are paying to maintain the iconography of our ignorance.
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primal.logic

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Post30 Dec 2006

I honestly don't see the problem here. If you don't like the BKs then you leave - simple.

Do I really need to say anything here? How narrow minded, ignorant and arrogant is this statement? You really are clueless!
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sparkal

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Post15 Feb 2007

But that is the beauty of this forum, some are longer in the tooth.

In Celticgyan's post, it is obvious that he has gone only so far or deep into the path/ organisation, which is good. It means he is capable of making such statements, which we can then debate. So, keep the own goals coming celtic. :lol:
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rocksanne

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Re: Duty of care

Post10 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote:Not just the BKWSU's duty of care but our duty of care, one's duty to extend one's care to all society whether BK or not BK. Especially, where one has or feels a responsibility for having built up and created what the BK is today. Duty of care extends to not just to previous victims but the future generations of individuals likely to be set up and processed by the BKWSU sausage machine.

I have just been contemplating this issue and then discovered that this conversation exists on the forum already. Now that the Blinkers have come off and I am beginning to smell the Roses again, I feel concern for friends currently in the Organisation and I know some who are very unhappy and/or emotionally suppressed. Like ex-l, I am also concerned about people who may join in the future and as a result end up with a broken marriage, broken family, sacrifice their career etc. All of these things deprive a human being of reaching their full potential. I include in this missing out on the opportunity to give birth to children or to experience a loving intimate relationship with a partner.

I feel blessed because I have survived with my career intact and a close relationship with my children. I have also retained most of my close non BK friends. However this is not the case for many. I have seen fathers move into Centres and abandon their families and sometimes even mothers do so. I have 2 memories from Madhuban which illustrate how we have been encouraged to do this.

The first was an Indian Sister from London who was asked to share her experiences in getting to the Centre even though she had young children. She went to the Centre everyday and left her kids at home by themselves. One morning her daughter had a very high temperature and was very sick. She was said to have told her mother that she would be OK and that Baba would look after her so her mother could go to the Centre. This was supposed to be an inspiration to we Mothers to detach more and make more effort. Well I think it had the effect of filling me with horror that a mother could leave her sick child for her own pursuits. After all God is available even when we are at Home I believe!

When we were in Madhuban we were always told that if someone we were travelling with or who was in our room became sick , we should not miss the Murli because they needed care ... a little cold I think! One day a Sister was visiting Madhuban with her "lokik" Sister who she hadn't seen for 10 years. The Sister became ill and died. Dadi Kumarka (I think) asked her to get up on the stage and share how she was eating Halva and experienced no sorrow from her Sister's death! Now I know that Psychologists would not agree with that. However a BK is encouraged not to show their grief. I am sure that we all have many stories like this.

So as a long time BK I feel that I do have a duty of Care. However I do not wish to go down and picket the local Centre. I have tried to get a few old BK friends to open up a bit, but they usually put up a wall. At present I must admit that I am getting my life back on track and am rather enjoying myself too!. However I do not wish to forget those stuck on the inside or who may become trapped.

Rocks (you don't have to put on that trance light) - anne :evil: :roll: :evil:
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paulkershaw

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Post07 May 2007

I wish to add my dear friend Shaun's name to this posting. He was never a BK but was drawn into my space for reasons I did not truly realise at that time.

I haven't been able to really speak about it all this time but he killed himself by driving into a highway pillion at full speed about 9 years ago around 2am. I am writing this because I think that such a magnificent human being deserves at least some mention and he suffered so much throughout his life, and suffered with deep courage.

His family doesn't know that he killed himself (they think it was a car crash) but in personal letters he left behind it was clear as to what he did and why.

He did this because of a relationship he was in ended and also because of the BK knowledge that The Cycle of 5000 years repeats eternally. He'd asked me for help and guidance at the time and in my BK blindness at the time I simply handed him the book Adi Dev to read, telling him it would help him no end and then I detached from it all, thinking it was his karma.

It helped him to end it all.

I still feel bad real deep down as to the role I played in his suicide, even if I did not know better at the time. I cannot change what happened but I've contemplated writing his name in the Honour Roll (Suicides) posting since I joined this forum but only today decided it was time to do so.

I herewith salute Shaun.

xx
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adikarisoul

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Post08 May 2007

paulkershaw wrote:He did this because of a relationship he was in ended and also because of the BK knowledge that The Cycle of 5000 years repeats eternally. He'd asked me for help and guidance at the time and in my BK blindness at the time I simply handed him the book Adi Dev to read, telling him it would help him no end and then I detached from it all, thinking it was his karma.

Dear Paul,

Unfortunately, very often people do commit suicide and in the majority of cases they are not BK nor did the have any contact with us or any other BKs at all! (So please don't think that The Knowledge of 5000 years cycle was truly the reason.)

I think we all agree that one of the main reasons for suicide is the ending of a relationship that meant a lot to us. Of course there is not just one motivation but many ... and we arrive to a point where we feel we're carrying the weight of the whole world on our shoulder We look around and we se nothing but emptiness, darkness and hopelessness and in that moment no one has the power to help us even not God otherwise no one would manage to kill himself. Right? Probably what pushes us in that moment is the convinction that we will stop feeling pain and that we will rest ... sleep, forever.

None of us likes seeing others suffering and I am sure that you did your best at that time to help your friend. But a moment comes when we think about karma just because there seems to be really nothing more that we can do to help and stop another being from..going away. All we can do at that point is to respect their decision (even if it hurts) and continue giving them LOVE ... LOVE unconditionally, because our love reaches others and sustains them wherever they are ...

And I strongly believe that is the same LOVE that will somehow "pull us" and enable us to meet again "in the future".

A subtle loving hug to Shaun and to you,
Adikari
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double light

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God may be with them!

Post31 May 2007

I did not read all the posts in this forum. Fortunately, I don't know anyone that commited suicide in the BKs or after leaving. But I know some persons that have been close. Me, my Brother and another girl I know have been very close.

My story is posted on classical posts "psychic illness after BK".

Well, for all the ones that commited suicide. They were seekers, Warriors of the Light, and I am sure God himself loves them deeply and will specially take care of them. After so much suffering there only can be good things waiting for these souls.
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jakeyboy

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bubblegum religion

Post17 Aug 2007

Seems a waste of life for a bubblegum religion.
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Mr Green

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Re: bubblegum religion

Post17 Aug 2007

jakeyboy wrote:Seems a waste of life for a bubblegum religion.

Some people are affected very deeply, jakeyboy. Perhaps even worse than yourself. Unfortunately a number have taken their lives and a number are also on the edge of doing so ...

I know it is a trivial thing to die for but we must respect the intensity of feeling that leads someone to end the gift of life.
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