What is the aim of this forum?

Surely an aim of a forum like this, if it is to genuinely cater for those leaving the BKs and recovering from the effects of that association, is to help people orient themselves to life again? This is best facilitated by discussing and promoting self-help and support strategies while giving people the opportunity to establish a more realistic perception of the world. The exploration of practical self-help strategies helps to support the former aim while the latter aim is achieved by exploring the bigger picture - and exploring information which promotes a broader understanding of the way systems really work.

What is the benefit of simply stabbing at the BKWSU and lamenting its myriad faults? There is limited benefit in exposing the deceptions of the BKs but much greater benefit in recognising the much broader deceptions which belong to a wider world into which people have chosen to return to. This is what is truly helpful and empowering. Allowing people who have been victims of the BKs to empower themselves through wider awareness so they are able to transcend an even bigger fable - the one they have been fed since birth.

Your pointless shout of 'conspiracy theory' is a trite and ineffectual response against facts that all people on this forum can verify if they make the effort to do so. When people research these issues they no longer mention conspiracy theory because their own investigations put them in touch with information which supports the claims. What replaces the well conditioned knee jerk response of conspiracy theory is a sombre recognition concerning how little they knew and how much bigger the picture really is. So let people decide for themselves after having informed themselves via such a process.

To untilize a forum like this to simply expose BK corruption is missing a very big point. Sure it is helpful and cathartic to express ones ordeal with the BKs in a supportive environment but there is more potential for helping people on this kind of forum that this? All ex-BKs on this forum, having woken up to the BK scam, now have an opportunity to wake up to the much wider scam - the one that is being perpetrated every day of their lives - the one no one tells you about or wants you to know. Do you want ex-l and his likes to judge for you whether this opportunity is allowed for you on this forum? Use your own voice to express what could be helpful for you on this environment?

The picture and understanding available is so much bigger than the issue of the BKs. It makes what the BKs are doing look like a side scene in an epic adventure. We have all been hurt by the BK experience to a greater or lesser extent, me included, but we must acknowledge the much greater effects on us from the very system into which the BKs were able to perpetrate their actions. This can only be truly acknowledged by recognising the larger system for what it truly is - a machine of lies, deceptions and a birth to death indoctrination.

I deal with people everyday that throw around the same kind of comments about this stuff as ex-l. It becomes a tiresome repitition like the person who constantly refuses to see the large elephant in the room repeating the words ' there is nothing there and to say there is is a conspiracy'. It's a joke.

It is pointless to provide examples, no matter how provable or well substantiated to someone which ex-l's mindset because its like trying to appeal to committed denier. But for those with eyes to see heres another example for you ...

Eight years ago several well informed figures claimed there was a plan to use the climate change argument and the issue of carbon emissions to bring in punitive new taxes to both companies and individuals. First they said these taxes would be rolled out and applied to businesses and later they would be applied domestically to families who would be taxed on the waste they produced and the energy they used in their homes. Where did they get such wild conspiratorial idea? Well, from several implications contained in UN publications, books written by members of the eco-science community and statements occasionally dropped into speeches from political figures.

These ideas were not the the result of a lone voice but their appeared at unity of opinion emerging from several sources. People who were really listening to this years ago caught the comments and the implications of it. They expressed the opinion that a plan existed, using climate change as a pretext, to introduce a range of punitive new laws and taxes based on a carbon credit system. They were confronted by an army of laughing Mr ex-l types who mocked them and dismissed the notion that a cartel of individuals were working to implement this plan in the not too distant future.

Well, perhaps you have noticed what is happening now in 2011? Julia Gillard the leader of Australia has announced the first implementation of carbon taxes on companies from next year set at around $28 per tonne of carbon emission. A carbon credit system will be introduced to limit the production of carbon from companies. Other countries will follow no doubt including Britain. The United Nations publication Agenda 21 hints at future measures to rescue domestic carbon emissions using incentives like fines and taxes on households.

It is only now that these events are emerging in an 'in your face' manner that people are taking it seriously. Even the deniers of the past are shut up by it because it has become obvious this was the secret agenda all along. So you see the stupidity of simply shouting 'conspiracy' every time a bunch of alert people spot a convert plan to change our lives and the system. An article in the Daily Mail recently described the UN's plans under Agenda 21 as the greatest threat of terrorism to the future of the world. The article highlights the plans to dramatically reduce our standards of living and prosperity in order to meet carbon emission targets and the punitive tax incentives they want to introduce to achieve it. For goodness sake people - WAKE UP!

Again, people who read the telecommunications acts of 1996 and spotted the implications of it informed people that all mobile devices, cell-phones, PC's, tablet computers etc were going to be made 'ready' by manufacturers so that by 2001 state authorities and others with the motive and means, could remotely access these devices at will because backdoor technology allowing this was to be put in place. The readying of this technology would allow for outside agencies to listen to your voice messages, turn your mobile phone into a microphone to listen in on you and your conversations, switch your phone camera and web cam off and on at will and track your internet activity and physical location in real time. Again, these insightful people were met with the usual tirade of Mr ex-l's mocking the notion of any government of international cabal planning such a venture. Why, they shouted, would anyone want to do such a thing?

The recent phone hacking scandal not only illustrates how easy it is for others to access mobile phone messages but highlights the widespread practice of it. All mobile devices have been made vulnerable to this kind of access because since 2001 manufacturers have made it this way - WITHOUT INFORMING YOU! Now why would they not inform the public of this? Secondly, Apple have recently announced their intention to switch off Apple mobiles camera facility if people try to film music concerts. Infa-red towers will be installed at public events to detect filming from mobiles. A message will then be sent from Apple to remotely switch the phones off and back on again after the event has finished.

Although Apple suggest they are applying for a patent to do this, the reality is that phones have been readied long ago to allow for this kind of remote operation under the requirements of the Telecommunications Acts. Previous to this two researchers into Apple phones discovered a chip which is tracking in real time the users location and which produces a map of where the user has been over the last year. All manufacturers were instructed to ready technology for this purpose by governments long ago.

This is all verifiable information. The fact is this was the plan and instruction all along. A plan created by governments, security services, telecommunications companies and providers. Importantly the implications of these new regulations were not conveyed to the public. You can look at the Pentagon War Academy publications and read of their aim to develop a wordwide network of tracking and surveillance in real time - this is the ultimate project for the military-industrial complex. This is fact not fiction as emerging evidence support. But if you are a Mr ex-l type you will ignore the elephant in the room. I could provide a hundred fruther examples with links to supportive documentation but still the Mr Ex-Ls of this world will refuse to contemplate the implications.

You see Mr Ex-Ls claim I am a conspiracy theorist is wildly inaccurate. People like me are investigators who gather substance to our claims from legitimate sources, and having found supporting evidence seek to inform others about it so they too carry a more informed view of the bigger picture. You see how stupid it is to talk of wild leaps of faith and logic when this stuff is knocking on everyones door so loudly and is set to knock a damm sight harder in the near future.

Come on people open your eyes and wake up please. There is a wider picture available that goes way beyond BK issues. This is about your future and the future of your kids and their kids. Don't let the likes of ex-l hand you a spade to bury your head in the sand. Have the courage to look and ignore the disapproving complaints of the Ex-Ls.

Surely an aim of a forum like this, if it is to genuinely cater for those leaving the BKs and recovering from the effects of that association, is to help people orient themselves to life again? This is best facilitated by discussing and promoting self-help and support strategies while giving people the opportunity to establish a more realistic perception of the world.

... if you are a Mr ex-l type you will ignore the elephant in the room. I could provide a hundred further examples with links to supportive documentation but still the Mr Ex-Ls of this world will refuse to contemplate the implications.

We cannot fix all the world's problems here Mike.

The purpose of this forum/website is:

to document the BKWSU as accurately as possible (which you can add to),
to support individuals exiting the BKWSU, and
to support friends and family of Brahma Kumari adherents who are negatively affected by their loved ones leaving them.

To which I would inject,

add a little happiness and lightness to ex-BK's lives.

We have to keep focus on the Brahma Kumari related issues and some people, with a tendency to go off onto their own hobby horses, need to be reminded to keep relating things back to Brahma Kumarism. True or false, what is the relevance of all those random theories to BK-ness or exiting the BKWSU?

One of the simple reasons is that individuals coming out of the BKWSU are often in a pretty messed up state of mind and to be given such a huge and depressing theoretical pill to swallow, would just kill them. Some will never gain the state of mind ready and able to chew over such issues and by focusing on them, we will drive them away.

Remember the old BK maxim "to take the pulse" first? It is a good one.

I think also the more you add to the first four purposes, the more acceptance of your own personal indulgences there would be. Think of it just like entering into a real world group. If a group is established for a specific purpose, and you come in and dominate it with a different purpose, then you would expect some reaction, would not you?

I will pick up on the conspiracy theory stuff else where but my comment to you would be ... so offer a positive proposal or alternative way of life for people to live.

I don't think depressing the hell of people with a manic depressive view of life helps in any way at all. What exiting BKs probably need most is to have all of the burdens of life which have been dumped on them, taken off their shoulders, e.g. "no, it is not your responsibility to fix all of the world's problems" and to learn to look at life in a more positive, practical and constructive way.

I think the aim of this forum apart from expose of the BKWSU and great work has been done on that level influencing and helping many, especially the silent BKs who do read this forum.......is to allow each of us to be ourselves and explore ourselves and our true 'spiritual' position.

Yes, I would say, "be and let be", respect others journey.

Why were you attracted to the BKs Mike?

... especially the silent BKs who do read this forum ...

And part of that is re-engaging people's critical faculties ... so do not be hurt or upset if your theories are critiqued.

Did I ever believe the world was only 5,000 years EXACTLY old?

How could I have? I do not believe I did ... and yet in a handful of cases when I actually taught the 7 Day Course I told people it was and did so in public. I think I had allowed myself to be reduced into a child-like state of mind that enjoy telling fairy stories and was getting off on being a guru.

Some of the folk in the BKWSU are on a guru trip, most are on a follower trip. Brahma Kumarism does give us a sort of instant package of guruship, packages of knowledge and a few tricks and methods, and our egos are attracted by that.

If we are not cured off it during our time under the Brahma Kumaris ... if we do not change ... we will take that form and seek a replacement guru package (or follower package) elsewhere.

It would be good to look very honestly at the underlying urge or intention that took us to the BKWSU and had us hooked ... to keep taking a very honest look not just at the stuff that is in our mind, being religion, politics, conspiracy theory but at the shape and nature of that mind itself.

If you think about it, some people are attracted to a religion because they need help, others are attracted to a religion because they genuinely want to help, some to hide their true self, e.g. celibacy masking homosexuality, some want a pulpit and some want to control others and abuse.

Sometimes it takes a while to work out what our/people's game is. When I think about it, the Brahma Kumaris were for a very long time an incredible selfish, self-serving religion dedicated against helping others in simple practical ways. Was that what attracted me, or was that why I left?

Now I think they are an dedicatedly deceptive religion, does that attract you or repel you?

Some people being in the Brahma Kumaris, or any other religion, because it gives them a pulpit and congregation (a guddhi and a class) but they BKs don't tolerate people with other ideas except their own.

To Mike26

Yes, please. Come on, respect us and go post somewhere else. Do you think that we are all stupid? We know what is happening in this world and we are able to interpret it without your "help".

Many of us, thanks to this site and the people who have kept alive, have been able to understand what the BK has done to us. The simple fact that IT exists has helped us to heal and move on with our lives. With great satisfaction I must say!

So please, do not tell us what we have to think nor try to direct our thoughts. We have had enough of that with BK, thanks.

Maria

You guys really make me smile.

As for listening my profession is based on listening and understanding the experiences of others. Plenty of reading yes as is necessary to perform my role. Showing off no but I expect that allegation from a tiny few - not a concern. Boring, well to you maybe but I get letter all the time detailing the opposite and they are the majority by far. I am very content with that.

A tiff with ex-l kind of absurd. I rarely have personal antogonism with anyone. This is not simply due to the fact I am a large, very strong martial artist (mostly Thai boxing, Jeet Kune Do and Kali before one of you conjures up a clever sounding response) but because I enjoy very good relationships with people.

People are entilted to draw on there own sources (though I wonder just where they get their stuff sometimes) in order to challenge my reliable sources. No problem with that. And if I wanted to criticize the style of presentation, argument, writing style and such of others on this forum there is plenty of material available to support such a process.

As for educating people I enjoy that privilage every day and generally meet a response far more more receptive and friedly than your own. One or two 'characters' who respond negatively is par for the course and kind of irrelevant.

Sure a few on this forum want to keep the purview very narrow and fixed to strictly BK matters, although from my experience and viewpoint the BK experience connects to the broader picture of life and living. Recovery form the BK experience is necessarily obliged to interface with the many broader issues of existence.

It seems clear some want to stay locked into the microcosm which in many respects is what the BK experience is. An invitiation integral to recovery and re-adjustment after the BKs is to engage differently with the macrocosm. This engagement with the macro is dismissed as an engagement with fallacy and conspiracy theory by a few uninformed (though they labour under the opposite view) members of this forum. It is clear that I could continue to waste my time and energy seeking to senslessly debate the toss over a hundred issues with those few. It would be a pointless exercise and one that does not interest me. In reality as i have said before, there is much more to be appreciated about the bigger picture after the BK chapter has finished.

I have spoken to many ex-BKs and there is a recognition that just as being in the BKs engenders a particular psychology in its followers, there is an equally distrubing psychology and culture present in ex BKs. In many ways the ex-BK mindset for some (not all) is subject to mechanisms which hinder an accurate re-adjustment and ability to perceive the larger picture. I would even say for some there is an aversion, fear and unconscious resistence at work. The BK experience leaves many legacies which if not recognised and addressed to some degree will impede proper re-adjustment and healthy re-engagment with the wider world. I am not generalizing here as we all fair differently but certainly some are left with handicaps of this nature.

I find a parallel here in an educational context. I find some people having been schooled in a particular perspective and approach, even after having rejected that perspective, struggle to engage with alternative perspectives as well as those with no previous affiliations. What is often more concerning is they exhibit very little self-awareness about this and are often dismissive of anyone who might suggest this is the case. They labour under a variety of psychological mechanisms which again and again sabotage their ability to render themselves receptive to and perspective of alternative positions.

This particular psychological is generally well acknowledged in the educational sphere and is recognised by some (And I mean only some) ex-BKs. I am interested in this psychology and and interested in the means to overcome this constraining influence on people.

I have been on this jouney for a very long time and found the position of denial a futile one. I read some messages on this forum and recognise myself a very long time ago as I countered every point thrown my way with plausible alternatives. In the end, it proved an embarrassment because the day I overcame my own post BK psychology and the mechanisms that go along with that, I realised all that I had been unwilling and unable to recognise previously. It made every clever retort I offered seem an embarrassment.

I have contributed to this forum in the hope that others may be encouraged to gather the courage to reach out beyond the preoccupation with BK matters and post BK matters and realize that healthy re-adjustment involves engagement with a much broader spectrum of topics and issues. The BK experience and recovery from invites the engagement with issues in this way, and is not helpful if the notion of re-adjustment remains limited to the revolving door of BK machinations. There is something wholly unhealthy about that position. It seems some are caught very deeply in that snare and are very reluctant to free themselves from it.

All I can say is that despite the sometimes challenging things I have discovered about the bigger picture after the BKs the awareness have freed me from much greater prisons than those constructed during my time as a BK. It has given me a much greater context and understanding of the BK issue and a wider appreciation of the system in which the BKs are allowed to operate.

I have tried to encourage some of this on this forum, but certainly with respect to the one or two people who monopolise this forum, it has proved largely futile. I recognise too that for those few respondents there aim is to control this forum and prevent people like myself inspiring a different kind of engagement with BK and wider matters. In many ways this kind of response proves how strong and enduring those psychological mechanisms are in the form of the ex-BK.

I am privileged to belong to many fruitful forums where I am received with much broader interest and curiosity mostly by those who have not experienced the BKs. I did wonder greatly what experience I would encounter on a very different forum like this one. Due to the responses of just a very few members of this forum it has been less than positive. It is distinctive in this sense especially.

I remain concerned about BKs and ex-BKs and hope that given time I might meet other ex-BKs ready to embrace the bigger issues and engage in a more fruitful journey of discovery. If you are up for it you won't regret the decision. In the meantime I wish my 2 occasional jousting partners Mr ex-l and Mr Green all the best, as I do all on this forum. Even if I not agreed with many views I respect it and have enjoyed the activity.

I aim to continue to contribute to this forum as and when. However, it remains without merit to continue to debate with those unwilling to properly entertain the subject matter without recourse to pointless counter-arguments, competition, and dismissal.

As for listening my profession is based on listening ...

Well, Mike, "listen" ... and get it ... when someone says they are not "denying" your point of view but are trying to move the conversation onwards to positive and practical changes one can make in one's lives and to examine some of the complexities.

Apart from studying up on 'Conspiracy Theory 101' ... which we have gotten underlined now ... what practical life changes have you made, or do you recommend to ex-BKs ?

Funnily enough, getting back into shape and their bodies, building up confidence and control via physical exercise (anything from dance to real Yoga or martial arts) is something that I would very much agree with.

What would you prescribe and in what priority?

A tiff with ex-l kind of absurd. I rarely have personal antogonism with anyone. This is not simply due to the fact I am a large, very strong martial artist (mostly Thai boxing, Jeet Kune Do and Kali before one of you conjures up a clever sounding response)

OK, you get one of those too! How about ... "Martial arts are good, a Smith & Wesson .45 is better".

Personally, I never felt comfortable with all the homoeroticism within the martial art tradition and scene, and all those latent psychopaths trying to prove their manhood by rolling around on top of me, but I have nothing against Muscle Marys and always make allowances for the damage caused by all those head blows. It is just that I prefer spending time with women now.

In polite language you might understand, would you really walk into someone else's Dojo and tell them they had it all wrong and should be teaching some other art instead?

You know why we are here. It is not a bad thing to do. Please help ... but keep it focused and 'on topic' (someone ought to move these last posts to the topic complaining about ex-l).

One last question though ...

How many farmers does it take to defeat a samurai?

Mike your post shows you don't know how to listen, just defend.....you listen just to fight, it's not the same thing, finding other peoples point of view amusing is a little bit defensive, something I see in you a lot, maybe this is why you want to be the big man with martial arts.....has something happened to you in early life? maybe you were bullied

I think you have a self awareness that others don't share and you think they should

It really is not absurd that you are having a tiff with ex-l, it's true and it really is boring

please just post something positive of your own volition, I can read books myself

Good luck with it, glad to see one statement of humility at the end of your post.

Well we all must adhere to one form of tyranny or another it seems concentrated in the hands of the few who seek to gratify their tendency for control and dictate what is acceptable - even on this forum. The irony and the parallel is sublime : ). No place for rebels trying to rock the boat of the precious little enterprise. cannot have that can we.

I think Mr Green has just offered you something very subtle and kind to look at, which I would agree with.

As I understand it what he is saying is that all the 'rebel resistance', conspiracy theory, sparing stuff was a sort of front/facade/defence mechanism masking the real you, the real issues and your real value to this forum. It was sort of typical "masculine approach" to finding your position in the group, wasn't it?

Your two most recent posts are wonderful and helpful to others ... proof that life does get better sometimes!

Thank you.

Although I might envy Lee's six pack these days, I'd much prefer Ueshiba's art.

I hear what you are saying guys but try not to speculate too much in the arm chair psychiatry fashion it does tend to come over as patronizing. I am sure that is not your intention.

As for macho martial arts I enjoy keeping fit and healthy and also enjoy the spiritual and philosophical base which is wholly non-violent. I have met the types you refer to and machoism does not equate with masculine in my view. Much of the martial arts sphere is populated by intelligent gentle spirits who would walk away from any antagonism. There are many woman in martial arts too as you would see if you visited any school from any approach. like any pursuit you encounter the psychos and the ego merchants.

As for having a self-awareness that others don't have and thinking others should have it that is interesting. What I would say is that I have developed an awareness about myself and the wider system which perhaps some don't see because it is hidden from them. All are able to be aware of it one it is offered. The difference comes with the issue of how people choose to react to it or what they do with it. My development of awareness came accidentaly in that I did not seek it but came across the tools that enabled it to grow. Since that time I have progressively sought to offer the opportunity to others to learn for themselves. It is a big thing and not for everyone of course which I acknowledge. It is not my intention to run after anyone on this forum or any forum and insist they gain the same awareness.

Underneath whether you percieve or not are good intentions and a genuine desire to facilitate the growth of others. I was reluctant in this role at first but am privilaged to play a small part these days in helping others gain a greater awarensss of things if they desire that. If not thats fine too. its not for everyone obviously.

what you describe with the usual inacuracy as the rebel conspiracy stuff is not by any means some front. It amazes me that this seems to be the only way you can conceive of it. Whatever your view I and my colleagues are ardent researchers into facts normally kept away from public attention. Far from a front this is and has been a genunie process which I feel passionately about and committed to. This issue touches me and concerns me to my core. Of course we are all complex that is human nature and what I do every day of my life in my work role is about offering support, understanding, patience, care and a gentle presence and companionship to those seeking help from distressing circumstances.

I understand the points you make but you are way wide of the mark and your comments though well meaning I believe also announce your own struggle to come to terms with someone not only different to you, but who is sincerely motivated to pursue an area of understanding and to promote that understanding among others. You seem to find it extremely difficult to accept what I research and disseminate to hundreds every day as nothing more that valueless conspiracy theory. It is not and has never been what you lable it.

Back to your comment about defensiveness (which I have seen in yourselves also on this forum) if I am attacked i will defend myself of course. nothing mysterious there. I guess what I find difficult is how restrictive the insistence on topic is. It almost feels a bit obsessive at times. I am not looking for any kind of platform only to engage with those interested in discovery and debate on broad issues. I have accepted that it will not happen on this site in the way I would welcome but there is still scope for benefit in discussing existing BK stuff even if this feels limiting at times. Its not a problem.

Please don't speculate about my life and childhood. I don't seek to do that with you and I am not here to explain to anyone myself on this site to anyone. Thats just about privacy and the right to it. You have not idea what I could see in your every commment and gesture, every nuance and silence through a few live discussions. This is the product of many years training and I use that perceptiveness to understand others not to speculate or try to interpret things about themand invade their privacy as a human being. To seek to this is plain disrespectful and usually erroneous to boot.

As I said I have accepted the position on this site as one a few control. Wider topics are not permitted here and are attacked. That is my experience and so naturally in the absence of any other interested parties I will keep to the limits you impose and concentrate on my other existing discourse with others on other sites. Perhaps this way at least you will treat an earnest visitor with some measure of respect no matter how conditional that might be. We at least have shared a common experience that being the BK movement - that at least gives us a patch of common ground from which to discuss things.

I actually believe you guys are well meaning too and that you have established this site for valuable reasons. I think that is a good thing and respect that. However, we are currently in different places and as they say some places never the two shall meet : ). If nothing else my experience here has been an education about post BK psychology.

hey Mike that's so much better, I know you have a lot to offer as does everyone, keep up the constructive posts please

Well, I know you mean that comment positively but it feels like a case of the child who is misbehaving is scolded by disapproving parents keen to discourage expression outside the limits they demand, and then praising the child for good behaviour, i.e. towing the line and keeping within the prescribed parameters. It is very controlling guys and smacks of 'conditions of worth' a concept you might want to have a look at.

Again, I know perhaps you don't intend it this way but really ... please remember we are all adults here.

Thanks

Anyway not to worry. Strict paremeters it is until this site and a few on it reach another place perhaps. Evolution and world events may yet shift grounds eventually for all of us and invite us to acknowledge new things. I've seen stranger things.

If you walk into a brain surgery and want to start motor mechanics at length, would you be surprise to be to told to stop or get the hell out? (We never said the latter). If you think I am patronising you, it is because I am pulling your leg and feeding back what you are giving off to us ... initially from the point of someone who was taking away from our purpose and contributing nothing. So what do you expect?

Contribute in goodwill and you will get back respect.

As far as 'Conspiracy Theory 101' (101 is the usual title of an introductory class), we don't need vast word dumps about what it is, just a link or two is fine. From my point of view,

a) what you are saying is nothing new,
b) I suspect most people here know the general gist,
c) you would have done yourself a favour to have asked first before firing off accusations, and
d) you are not coming up with anything unique (yet) or improving on, say, Chomsky yet so I am not that interested.

You did understand that rather than 'deny' the fairly second hand ideas, we were attempting to get you to 'develop and improve' on your stance and, in some useful way, relate it to the project at hand here. You went heavily on the defensive instead.


Speaking of being adult, I think BKs have been infantilised, made child-like, for a long time, and still are. This has even been picked up by the academics who have studied the BKWSU, since the 1970s and we could document and analyse it further.

In our experience, many exiting BKs are coping simple with survival and how to make that BK to ex-BK transition. It is hard enough. Some do not make it. I mean literally ... the ones that commit suicide. Some ... and you would be surprised who they included ... only just made it through the transition. That is why I think it is important to really see the good in life and learn to look objectively, not confuse the pain, confusion and pessimism with the real world or swallow other people's, other cults' madness or the media's madness.

Whereas the facts of 'Conspiracy Theory 101' are generally quite accurate, the connections they make between them are generally illogical or insane.

Some of us do take what we our roles here seriously and many have invested in it heavily. Therefore, I suppose we are "boatmen", or trainee boatmen, taking people back across the BK River Styx and helping those who have lost their loved ones to the Brahma Kumari Hades (Underworld). It is not the whole of "us" as individuals. It is only a vocation. What folks do once they are back home in reality and dry, where they go next, is their own business. We can only do so much. I don't think there is a pecking order here but I think there is only a general consensus that we allow individuals their indulgences if they keep them connected to what we are about in some way.

Growing up from the infantilisation within the BKWSU ... which as you point out then may included a 'growing up' from the infantilisation or "slavery" of every day life in our capitalist societies ... also makes one feel much much better.

Your proposals is that area, so far, have been very vague and general. I suspect, truth be, you are just as stuck as one in the current status quo ... even if you claim you can now objectively conceive what is going on. I think the nihilism and pessimism of the media, the BKWSU's Destruction and conspiracy theory is traumatising and depressing and all three are really just negative emotional hooks used for their sake of each's business.

The aim of this forum should be to give people some hope and direction ...

There is so much I could point out by way of response about such comments but from my perspective it is pointless to try - this is most certainly clear. There are yawning gaps in both your knowledge and your comments but to reiterate - it would be fruitless to continue debates on these subjects with someone like yourself.

I find your blanket description of the process of discovering untold histories and hidden facts conspiracy 101. This is an offensive remark which I take personally. These remarks show disrespect to genuine scholars and researchers. It is an infantile evaluation and one that does not fit with real research into these matters. Please keep offensive comments and closed minded dismissals to yourself.

Even a small statistical analysis reveals how prevailent your comments, and those of just a very small number of people on this forum are. I do wonder why so few use this forum. You seem to have plenty of free non-working time to contribute to it. I personally feel your stance obstructs free expression and prejudices what might under the orchestration of people other than yourself on this site, prove to a very productive and stimulating journey of expanded awareness for people.

As the dominant contributer on this site you one convinced of the strengths of your insights sufficient to deride the hard earned insights of another, your exert and inhibiting influence on the free experession of other members who are likely to remain silent. In my opinion this is an abuse of responsibility. Some other ex-BKs have looked with me at this site and the negative, dismissing and controlling attempts to shut me up by yourself and have decided it is not for them. That is sad in my books. We have talked of setting up a more productive web-site that encourages much more open expression. No doubt you will think thats a good idea - I will agree with that for sure. I think a vehicle to support and help others leaving BK-ism does not have to be administered like this one is and it is important to set down rules on such a forum for more openess.

Thank you at least for the value of these recognitions as you have been the principle facilitator of this important awareness.

However, I still believe there may be some on this site able to engage with me in a more positive and fruitful way. I live in hope : )

Please don't waste any more of my time and energy by responding to me - it is counterproductive.

Some other ex-BKs have looked with me at this site and the negative, dismissing and controlling attempts to shut me up by yourself and have decided it is not for them. That is sad in my books. We have talked of setting up a more productive web-site that encourages much more open expression. No doubt you will think thats a good idea ...

I think it is better that you support the more liberal forum which already exists ... xBKChat.net unless your plan is limited to 'ex-BK Conspiracy Theorists'. In that case, you would be better off with a blog. We very much take people as they come here, and are pretty tolerant of eccentricity, but ... "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Neither you nor your ideas are being "rejected, dismissed, controlled or shut up" ... but you were asked to back them up and keep 'on topic'.

Please remember that your initial contribution to this forum was to claim that the ...

BKWSU was tool for a secret cabal of super elite globalists and controlled by them.

Everyone here considers that is entirely false ... unless, I suppose, you are theorising that the puppet masters of it all are something unprovable like "spooks from some other cosmic realm", as the Brahma Kumaris believe, or "grey aliens", as the Conspiracy Theorists believe. All the same, we gave you a chance to prove it and establish credibility for them. You still have not.

Not once have you substantiated your claims about the BKWSU, nor provided any evidence for them. I don't think you can and what you are really having a hard time with is admitting that, this time, you were wrong. Instead of just doing so, you have attempted to bury conversation with off topic and attacks against me.

This forum has a very serious value and is provoking discussion and change within the BKWSU ... we have to defend its credibility from fruitcake ideas which the BWKSU leaders could use to discredit it. When I say "fruitcake", I only refer to the idea that the BKWSU is controlled by Illuminati, or whatever you call your super elite secret cabal.

I am sorry but you still talk like a BK using words like "scholar" and "researcher" in an exaggerated manner, as if they mean something. We try to get people out of such habits and apply real world, academic standards. Please quote whoever it is you are referring to, and link to references, to so we can decide for ourselves.

Show us respect and you will get it back.