Spiritist mediumship & dissociative identity disorder

The core of Brahma Kumarism is, they claim, the "spiritualist mediumship" of deceased or otherworldly spirits to which the adherents are encouraged to surrender their minds, body and wealth. Retrospectively, some time after 1950, the Brahma Kumaris claim their founder was possessed by another spirit and this spirit was the god of all religions.

At the time when the "possession" was supposed to start, Lekhraj Kirpalani family thought he was having a mental breakdown and he and they recall him doing many strange things which could clearly indicate so if someone else did so today. Obsessions with symbols, drawing on walls, claiming to be gods etc. His neighbours reported his earlier meetings to be dramatic with many hysterical responses from the women.

Our opinion of Lekhraj Kirpalani today is very much different now we have learned that there was no mention of a possessing God Shiva until after 1950, that from 1932 Lekhraj Kirpalani and his followers had thought he was their god, and that the BKs are encouraged to live and believe in a false history. Perhaps possession by a god was the idea best explanation where there was no other explanation to the strange individual and group happens. It is a way of think towards mental illness still prevalent in India today?

A number of academic books and papers exist corelating spiritualist mediumship and a psychological state called dissociative identity disorder, e,g, Do Religious Mediumship Dissociative Experiences Conform to the Sociocognitive Theory of Dissociation? by Negro Jr MD, PhDab, Palladino-Negro MDc & Louzã MD, PhDb. It is a discussion which has been going on for at least 100 years and there are even power struggles between competing explanatory models, e.g. Nineteenth Century Pioneers in the Study of Dissociation: William James and Psychical Research by Alvarado, Krippner.

Mediumship might just be a taught and learned tendency invoking a state of dissociative identity disorder (experience of "dissociation").

We know the Brahma Kumaris are busy training up new mediums to take over when Gulzar dies. Although the BKs are secretive about this, some books document how it happens in other traditions, e.g. Spirit Mediumship and Society in Africa by John Beattie, John Middleton.

The BKs are secretive about the mediumship element of their practice and by encouraging their followers not to think, not to question and not to look beyond their walls, perhaps they keep from their adherents how common the phenomenon is?

Was Shiva and are BapDada other 'spirits', or are they just other 'parts' of the BK so called spirit mediums and, if so, how do we explain all the seemingly strange or wonderful experiences individuals have?

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a psychiatric diagnosis and describes a condition in which a person displays multiple distinct identities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. The diagnosis requires that at least two personalities (one may be the host) routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness. It is a controversy topic.

Different schools of academic thought approach mediumship differently. Some just consider it an impossibility and a fraud, others study it as a social phenomenon not questioning what it might be.

Here is an interesting bundle of papers discussing thoughts around the subjects from the The Incorporated Society for Psychical Research 32nd Annual Convention.

i personally don't believe there are any spirits, i think it's all make believe

I agree in what you just have said, Mr Green, a hundred per cent.

Hi,

I would be interested to know if anyone experiences any symptoms of the above, particularly those who became a BK as a child and were also victims of abuse/trauma by members of the Brahma Kumaris.

If so, how does it affect you in your day to day life. Do you often feel spaced out? Do you feel like your here but not here?
Do you find it hard to feel connected and grounded?


See this link to see the symptoms: MedicineNet.com: Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Enlightened

Hi Enlightened,

Based on reading and listening and people I know, things I've done and self-observation, we all experience all psycho-pathologies in one form or other but to differing degrees.

I can say I have at times experienced "symptoms" but they rise and fall, and like the weather, one can work according to what presents on any day, or wish that it were otherwise. As someone with a "stable" family background and no traumas early in life, I actively put myself through "altered states" of consciousness, some of them quite testing and terrifying, and you learn to distinguish objective reality from the subjective one, and even be able to "switch" between them at will. That 'experimenting' was partly what led me to the BK door, but why I stayed for years is another story...

When normal human "variability" becomes overly pronounced, to the point of becoming a problem, then people get 'tagged' with a diagnosis. e.g. depression is melancholy is sadness is feeling flat... ADHD may be a bright kid for whom too much sitting and too much head-oriented work leaves him needing distraction or physical activity, a quite natural response!

When is it becoming a problem? As a psychologist recently said on the radio, it's usually a problem for other people before it becomes a problem for the person involved. His point was that there is a major problem of over-pathologising (labelling someone as having a "mental health" problem) in many cases, it's others not knowing how to deal with someone quite naturally different to their expectations, or an individual feeling they should be like others, lacking the "confidence" to be themselves - often due to others' reactions to them.

That said, if a person themselves feels there is a problem, he/she should seek to resolve it. The difficulty they will face will be about finding what is appropriate to their needs and not becoming another "customer" for the particular product or type of the therapy 'on sale,' most insist that what they have to offer is exactly what you need. And the tendency to over-diagnose according to "manuals" can lead to wrong or inappropriate treatments

The ancient chinese Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine summarises most conditions as being the result of one's situation, and the remedy is found in countering that cause - and the traditional Chinese approach definitely works on psychological issues from the somatic base, i.e. get the nutrition and activity and balance right first.

It's usually a good idea, like with most "problem-solving" situations, to look at the most basic things first, then if unsuccessful, move to the next most involved thing.

1.With equipment going wrong, the first thing to check is, "Am I plugged in and switched on?"

In a personal sense you could ask "am I plugged into my community and society, am I switched on to what's going on around me, or am I shut off?". If shut off - or parts are shut off, you need to find real connections with family, friends, colleagues, nature, animals, caring & sharing, touch & hugging.

2. The next check with equipment is - is something that is connected to it causing the problem? Isolating the problem by disconnecting and reconnecting one by one to see if any of them are the issue.

In the personal, you'd look at one's routine - sleep, diet, work, activities etc and check each part of them one by one and experiment to see what happens if they are removed or changed. Do you need more exercise or just more fun activity, or early nights and better sleep? Do you connect with nature as much as a living breathing animal should? Do I need a higher protein diet or more fresh veg. in my diet? A change of job and/or living situation? One at a time, or combinations? When was the last time I did x ...? Do I make excuses for inertia to make me repeat bad patterns?
Likely you already know. But knowing is not doing. Just as wishing someone well only counts if you practically do someone well when the time arises ... and that includes oneself.

So, #1. is seeing if there is something"missing" that needs to be included. # 2. is asking if there's things included already that need to be changed or excluded.

3. The third thing is to consider if the equipment is just too old, wear and tear requires a new one.

Personally, it may be that the whole of a situation or your circumstances need a real shake out and total change. We may be in a rut, doing and thinking the same things, which, if we are having problems, means they will only increase until addressed. We may need to travel, or investigate and experiment with a new philosophy, or go back to our childhood aspirations and see where we branched out in the wrong direction and jump across, maybe with studies or new activities that get us closer to our heart's bliss.

Only once these practicalities have been tried and still not worked would it be worth seeking professional help. Some times it's the professional help that's needed for the practicalities to be identified and changed. But try it yourself first, be your own therapist - or if you have a confidante, work with them, regularly check the points like in 1 & 2 above - maybe in a a diary, and see how you go.

It may be the lack of self-integration (DID/MPD) actually is a psychological disorder arising from a deeper but unconscious awareness that the currently conceived self is tenuous and artificial, and the pathology is the "mechanism" by which one can manage to keep functioning.

What I am suggesting here, tying this back to my opening, is that all of us adopt different personas, sometimes consciously, sometimes not. Like changing gears as we drive. We all go through periods of alienation or lack of presence, but usually return to earth. If you are feeling it is becoming "automatic' and you feel losing control, the persona changes are contrary to what you feel you want to do, seeming as if they from someone else, it would be distressing. I'd look for a transpersonal style of psychology that works toward identifying the cleavages and reintegrating the split-off parts of ourselves.

Lastly, it may then be psychiatric rather than psychological. Meaning rather than it being the dynamics of how your mind works due to experiences etc which need identifying and integrating, there is actually a biochemical imbalance which doesn't allow other ways of thinking to occur. What you experience may be inevitable due to the chemistry. These can sometimes be improved by proper nutrition and activity which will change the biochemistry, but sometimes its not that, but more inherent. Medications can work wonders if it's the right one for the right person. It can work aslo as a relief before undergoing psychological therapy. I mean, if an aspirin can stop the headache, why spend ages thinking about how you got the headache. Take the aspirin, get relief, then sort out the patterns that cause the trouble.

I know a few people who's lives have been transformed for the better once they were correctly diagnosed and correct prescriptions & dosages worked out. And that in itself can be a bit of a journey but worth it. You have to be a very active participant in the process, assuming you've found a good practitioner you have to give regular feedback honestly of what it is doing for you or to you.

Sounds like a fine "Recipe" by a "Life Coach" ..!

Unfortunately, the "Genetic Factor" can be decisive, and may influence or even over-rule everything else ..!!

Yes, and poverty too.

Many of the "fixes" that the like of the BKs attract the rich and Westerners with are merely 'malaises of wealth and affluence' that a poor person could afford the luxury to have, i.e. "princess and the pea" syndrome ... "I've got everything but there is still something in my life that does not feel right or good enough". It's a wanting of new and more experiences, a new aesthetic to experience and consume.

Being poor, living in poor surroundings, having few options in life, being trapped by ones society is genuinely depressing/upsetting/irritating in a very real manner that a wealthy person living in comfort and being concerned about whether some tiny thought or emotion is Maya or not has no idea about.

I think the Panther's post is very well grounded and comprehensive. I can agree with it wholeheartedly and it applies as well as to BKs and non-BKs. Self-diagnosis is a danger ... many people go through a phase of thinking they have 'every problem in the world' as they learn of new symptoms and one would have to ask whether the individuals had the problems Enlightenment refers to above *before* they entered the BKs and, indeed, entered the BKs because it was a way to feel comfortable with them or mask them. You could argue that the BKs are an asylum of pretty dumb/naive/crazy/vulnerable people exploited by a cult of dishonest psychopaths!

However, being serious, BKism does strongly reinforce that 'spacing out' tendency both in the prolonged and extensive "meditation" they do, in the manner in which they are advised to respond to life ... Who really knows if BK adherents are "having Yoga" or just "spacing out" or .

And, this is the most important point I would like to make here ...

Dissociative disorders are sometimes triggered by trauma ... stress etc.

In my theory, but also in my experience, individuals go through subtle but powerful experiences of trauma and stress within their BK experience which further dissociates them from reality. Experiences which either bend their mind, moulding it to the needs of the leadership, or breaks them. And the "broken" ones, the BKs are just happen to discard, or even outcast, because what they want are the malleable minds to manipulate, or psychopathic individuals willing and able to carry on the religion.

I'll need to discuss what I mean here later ... in short, I am sort of saying, BKism is a religion for neurotics (the distressed and deluded) run by psychopaths (see below).

Stress, confusion and trauma are skilfully induced at more and more subtle levels to increase the victims (BKs) detachment or disassociation who are then encourage to attach to the BKWSU and its leaders.

Psychopathy is a popular term often used to refer to a person characterized by reduced fear, a lack of empathy, coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behaviour, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.

I see there are Screening Test for Dissociative Identity Disorder (disclaimers on psychological testing apply).

"Mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experiences" would appear to be *exactly* what the BKs are aiming for!

From the evil genius called the Wikipedia ... Dissociation (psychology).

Dissociation is a term in psychology describing a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experiences. It is commonly displayed on a continuum. The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality – rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis. In mild cases, dissociation can be regarded as a coping mechanism or defense mechanisms in seeking to master, minimize or tolerate stress – including boredom or conflict. At the non-pathological end of the continuum, dissociation describes common events such as daydreaming while driving a vehicle. Further along the continuum are non-pathological altered states of consciousness.

Hi Pink Panther (by the way, I do like your name) and ex-l.

Trust me, I've tried virtually everything you've mentioned in your reply, Pink Panther, but still struggling. It's a nightmare of a journey of recovery ... if anyone is considering joining the Brahma Kumaris or any other cult for that matter, think a 100 times before you do so ... and please please don't expose your children to such organisations because it will only end up with them having to pick up the pieces later on in life with the trauma, damage and dissociation that the Brahma Kumaris and other cults create in their lives. Brahma Kumaris and other cults strip away the human rights of an individual and control every aspect of their life leaving them totally isolated, alone and withdrawn from society.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ... STAY AWAY FROM THE Brahma Kumaris AND ANY OTHER CULTS OR ORGANISATIONS THAT BRAINWASH.

Enlightened

What's going on for you, Enlightened?

I agree with you. Far better never to get involved than try and get yourself, or loved one, uninvolved. Far better to protect others and pre-inform non-BK than that fight or oppose the BKs on individuals and territory they have already conquered.

May I add another suggesting which is along the lines of fighting fire with fire, or voodoo with voodoo, and that is finding a good psychic healer who does 'de-cording' and spirit purification practises.

Regardless what one thinks of psychism or spiritualism, it's a language or rite which speaks to our sub-conscious mind in the same way that dreams etc do and many use a sort of light hynotic practise to relax the mind and re-programme it. Again, regardless what one thinks of hypnosis now, it has been proven to work and achieve remarkable things.

The theory with 'cording', I think it is 'pretty much' called cathexis and cathexing in psychotherapy, is that we create psychic/mental bonds between ourselves and others that can either strengthen us or weaken us, e.g. allow others to feed off us, and that psychic/mental influences can flow between us in this way. This is not entirely voodoo, it's pretty much what happens between, say, mother and child, or lovers, and happens at a group level too.

Many of the rituals, regular disciplines and adherences of group membership are designed to strengthen these bonds call on very deep and ancient programming within the human mind, e..g old tribal stuff cults also exploit converting you to their tribe and out of your old tribe (Stockholm Syndrome).

Psychic healers take this one step forward and visualize these bonds as linking various chakras according to the nature of the connect. Imagine them like nerves or blood vessels between individuals.

The idea is to 'plug' what is allowing that connection to exist and 'dissolve' the cords, not just cut them.

This might sound airy-fairy but it has very practical applications, e.g. the cult might be pulling on some vulnerability from some earlier bad experience or need you had and so you would, in a sense, be recognising that need/hurt and resolving it in the therapy ... transforming it to a strength. They then talk of closing or sealing the chakras so as not to allow the bond to open up again and, again, that has a practical meaning in as practical as, say, an addict or co-dependent individual recognizing their tendency and now allow it to have control over it ... weakening often using visualization to do so.

Now, the usual caveats apply. You need to find a good and trustworthy therapist and not an entirely bogus or exploitative one, and you have to avoid transferring all you BKs problems onto them (many people become addict to psychics and give over their power to them). Try to find as reputable and accountable one as you can and not a purely commercial one.

I am not even adverse to 'fighting one cult with another'. I have a few 'Mahikari" sessions and felt fantastic afterwards. I think it is a bit like Reiki or other Japanese/indigenous healing arts ... but, unlike Reiki, it's not a big business and they offer it for free.

There is no doubt that Mahikari can also be cult-like, depending on who and how evolve a practitioner you meet so, again, find a good one/group. It works are similar problems in a slightly different manner. Just don't get sucked in and give you life over to it ... unless it feels OK!!! You should be immune to cult dynamics now and be able to pick and chose as you like.

It's a good thing after the BKWSU to connect with other individuals and groups and break away the BK exclusivity, isolation and elitism. Get in with the swim of life, catch a few minor viruses, swop a few body fluids and so on.

Sex, massage and dancing are also said to be great way to clear psychic blockages. Sometimes a little bit of taboo is a good thing (... God knows enough BKs are doing it now too). Someone else on this forum comments on how the BK Sisters had developed a trend of giving each other sensual massages.

Sounds like a fine "Recipe" by a "Life Coach" ..! Unfortunately, the "Genetic Factor" can be decisive, and may influence or even over-rule everything else ..!!

Yes that's true, that's why I mentioned that it may be biochemical. And huge strides have been made in that area. I know - people, including ex-Bks, who've said the right medication has let them feel they are themselves for the first time in decades.

e.g. No-one is born schizophrenic or bi-polar but they may be born with a genetic predisposition, which can be triggered. The medicinal treatment have come ahead in leaps and bounds over the last 10 years or so.

And there is growing evidence of post-natal genetic change (damage?) due to trauma, exposure to chemicals, EM fields etc or combinations thereof.

Enlightened, you say you've tried virtually all suggestions. It's crucial to remind oneself that certain states of being, our current state, have taken a long time to develop and might take just as long a long time to undo, or if not completely at least to improve gradually. So, keep doing those things that help, and regularly re-evaluate.

ex-l's 'fire with fire' approach might work; who knows until you try? I like the idea of breaking taboos - particularly the ones which we "submit" to rather than agree with ourselves.

Realised I skimmed over something in my last post - something even more basic. The thing we can live without least is breath. In all the traditions, whether its called prana, or chi, or spirit, or pneuma - all mean "breath" and the rest of the new-agey overtones came later. It's been found, for example, that the single most effective 'treatment' that helps more people with depression is vigourous activity - especially outdoors. It helped over 60% of people whereas the next most effective was placebo at about 40%, with specific medications each only helping specific people - around 25% and 35%.

OK, I know we're discussing DID and that's different, but shallow breathing or shortness of oxygen will make anyone lightheaded anytime and leave if its chronic (long term) can lead to all kinds of physical and mental "effects". Dancing, swimming, long brisk walks regularly, it may sound trite, but if we are to look at the foundations first, breath comes before water, comes before food, before job satisfaction etc. Yogic breathwork (I'd go Buddhist/taoist rather than Hindu/deist!

And maybe play with the idea of deciding which of the identities you want to manifest, become a player rather than the played! Fun experiment at least.

I hope you are feeling a bit more together. I read a general horoscope today (just saying) and it says that this month or so is a time where the past which has been composting is ready to bring forth a transformed reality, if one has the expansive accepting mind to go with it. (That may be true all of the time, but why not go with the flow when it flows?!)

Thanks for your replies

Ex-I, do you honestly think that someone who has been sexually, mentally and verbally abused as a child by members of the Brahma Kumaris, other cults or by anyone else for that matter, has lead a celibate life, is messed up in more ways than one is able to just jump in bed with any Tom, Dick or Harry to have sex or able to afford any kind of sex therapy if they're not working etc?

Is one not supposed to sort themselves out before they even enter into a relationship? Do you not think that trying to have sex just for the sake of it may cause further trauma for such a person especially if the other person doesn't even love them.

You might need to think carefully about some of the advice you give as it might end up traumatising someone even more.

The question I was asking about was dissociation.


Enlightened

Enlightened,

You have revealed a lot in that last post showing how your circumstances and experiences affect your options.

Going back to all the things discussed so far, especially those that do not require money; Have you tried them expecting a "final solution - once and for all"? Even for "normal" cats like me (yes, pink is normal where I come from) all aspects of life, large and small, inner and outer, they need awareness constantly. You cannot brush your teeth 7 times in a one day so you won't have to do it for a week.

Any habits, whether physical or mental patterns, are 'habits' because they have gone from being new, barely familiar, to becoming "automated". They become part of the "limbic" system - which takes less energy (literally energy - as in kilojoules and calories!) than the frontal cortex stuff, or more simply, things that require learning, planning, changing. You have to keep at it. Then, keep at it some more.

Given your situation, do you have someone who can be your "sponsor" or "mentor" or "companion" - an old friend or relative or anyone who is compassionate and willing, that you can bounce off, call anytime or do things regularly together over a longer term?

Where do you live? (as in city or district). The anonymity of this site is great for many things but it is possible there's someone here who is close by and can fill an actual support role rather than a "virtual" one. You could PM each other?

You might need to think carefully about some of the advice you give as it might end up traumatising someone even more.

Excuse me for asking you this but I cannot answer you or attempt help without doing so.

We're you directly sexually abused as a child by members of the Brahma Kumaris, or are you just speaking with relationship to 'non-sex' or celibacy and your parents?

You might need to think carefully about some of the advice you give as it might end up traumatising someone even more.

Actually, I wasn't answering you specifically. I was just talking in general terms and I stand by what I said both from theory and my own experience. I know what it is like as ex-BK to cross BK taboos ... I can even remember when eating onions and food cooked by strangers felt, if not fearful at least sinful!

Please, this is a general topic someone else started and not one that you started about your own situation.

Did you consider any of the other thoughts?

Is one not supposed to sort themselves out before they even enter into a relationship?

Do you not think that trying to have sex just for the sake of it may cause further trauma for such a person especially if the other person doesn't even love them?

I don't know you nor your situation but what I would like to say is that there are as many kinds of love and as many kinds of sex as there are people, and they are not all bad.

In answer to the second question, somewhere between 'no, not at all' and 'not necessarily". I certainly believe in "sexual healing" and - although I don't know you and so I am talking generally again. I would probably the best person to overcome such problems with is *not* someone that comes attached with all sort of other high, emotional expectations of being "the one" but someone that is loving and carrying.

I would say that many people who have had sex have had brief sexual relationships with others that were just "healing" or transitory, e.g. 'break-up sex' is quite common, 'getting back into the relationship game' is another after a bad break up, and in the case of genuinely sexual abused women, I known some explore relationships first with other women in which they felt safer before going back to men. Or swinging between the two as they preferred.

In answer to the first question ... well, it's a bit of a Catch 22 situation really. One is never going to start having relationships until one starts having relationships and perfect doesn't come along at the right time like a regular bus route, nor three times in a row.

I've known more than one person who was directly abused and overcame it. If very personal matters are something that you are more comfortable talking 'off forum' about I am happy too via 'private messaging'. I do remember some of your situation you spoke earlier off but it would be better to refresh our memories.

Or we can discuss it in public so that others might gain from it.

Unfortunately, as referring to the dissociative states ... you are just human and there are just so many ways to confront/resolve/adopt to them.

As the Panther states, it really is worth looking at the simple practical things in life, e.g. many vegetarians (which is references to the BKs) get spaced out because they eating too many starchy foods which also leads to listlessness and putting on weight which we also see in the BKs too. It can be, again from my own experience, something as simple as a certain food/food group.

Obviously if there are pains one is escaping from, and I know what that means, spacing out from bingeing is understandable as a 'get you by' but ultimately does not help or resolve anything. Sometimes you need a little external push or help from someone else.

Enlightened - I am strongly sensing there's a strong need for a real person-to-person connection with honesty, love, respect, sensitivity to support you in your journey of healing. And the wounds may make you feel that social intercourse is difficult enough, let alone the confidence for flirtations, romances or sexual intercourse. Or sometimes these things can require money you cannot afford for eating out, getting about and doing things...

If you live in a major town or city, there'd at least be some support groups for those who've been abused*. If not, there are counsellors just for a chat, and groups doing low-cost activities - even through local libraries and community centres.

Joining in with a support group is, by the very act of going, is acknowledging the reality - and also breaks through isolation , tangibly knowing "I am not alone - I am not "specially unlucky" or whatever other thoughts that might weigh you down.

*The word "victim" is a statement of fact - there's a culprit and a victim. I think people can use the fact they were victimised to generate the necessary emotional impetus to act. But it can be a 'loaded' word - some people "refuse to be a victim" so I avoid using it as much as possible. My experience however is that that refusal can be a kind of suppression or denial that leads to other problems.

Enlightened - I am strongly sensing there's a strong need for a real person-to-person connection with honesty, love, respect, sensitivity to support you in your journey of healing. And the wounds may make you feel that social intercourse is difficult enough, let alone the confidence for flirtations, romances or sexual intercourse.

Pink panther, YOU ARE SPOT ON with what you say above. Unfortunately, it's rather challenging to even find a genuine person to person connection as most people are deceiving, selfish, opportunists, predators and the list goes on. I have been alone on my journey of healing and recovery but therapists I have seen in the past have said that I am a survivor and am very resilient despite what I've been through.

Ex-I

Sexual abuse not only entails sexual intercourse, but the act of inappropriate touching, the act of attempting to have sexual intercourse as well as rape.