The Murlis: Ownership, access to and re-writing of

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: Free the Murlis

Post16 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:I think you need to try and see things from their perspective, which would mean trying to remove yourself from any feelings of injustice, cynism or anger you may feel for how things are at present.

I will tell you and it is true, I am not "angry" about this stuff at all. I will admit to being a little derisive and discompassionate. I must re-write up my " why did I leave Gyan? " story at some point and answer avyakt7''s question about my relationship with God.

Its funny, there is that famous old quote, " the last Englishman alive will be an India ". I want to coin another ;
    " The Last BK will be an ex-BK " - BK is no longer BK and is becoming less and less so.
I disagree with the leadership, the elitist way they are leading the organization and am not afraid to say it. On one hand, I think they should be honest to themselves and be BK and be damned. Be BK and be proud. Believe in it all and tell the World. On the other hand, I prophecise that all this New Agey, double standards, sucking up to politicians, re-writing of BK facts will be their downfall.

I should ask the Admin to change my title, I am not an ex-BK, I am a sort of Fundimentalist BK who believes in real spiritual values instead of PR!

How much time must be spent in service meetings trying to invent new ways of hiding the Truth, inventing disguises, working out who is going to be a BK and who is going to pretend to be a non-BK, and so on. How many times have we read about how far the Seniors are taking the movement away from what Baba says in the Murli!!!

I say ********! Publish the Murlis and be saved. Let the World know the truth.

If you want to something really interesting, in addition, find all the old diaries of Saraswati and Lekhraj Kirpalani, translate them raw and publish them too.

If I ever find out that the BKWSU have burnt or destroyed those records, I will sure that they are in league with evil. I mean why sit and listen to all the same old twaddle day in day out when you could be studying the direct evolution of ALLEGEDLY the number one and two soul on Earth?

Tell me if I am wrong.
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howiemac

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Re: Free the Murlis

Post16 Aug 2006

ex-l wrote:" The Last BK will be an ex-BK " - BK is no longer BK and is becoming less and less so.

I like it :)
I am not an ex-BK, I am a sort of Fundimentalist BK who believes in real spiritual values instead of PR

Scary ... an extremist neo-Brahmin activist? Even scarier - I can relate to what you are saying ... bring it on!
If you want to something really interesting, in addition, find all the old diaries of Saraswati and Lekhraj Kirpalani, translate them raw and publish them too.

When I was in India in 2003 I saw some of these diaries, kept meticulously by a little old Dadi (her name escapes me but she was alovely soul) who would lovingly show them to those who were interested. An old BK couple running a centre in Delhi also showed us several letters they had received from Brahma Baba - I was handed them to have a good look at them - couldn't read them, they were in almost-illegible Hindi (or Sindhi?).. my point is that Brahma Baba was known to write a great many letters to a great many people "in all four directions" - many will have been retained.

bansy

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Post17 Aug 2006

little old Dadi

Dadi Lechu, she's the one, the only one, allowed to prepare the chair-bed for BapDada (Dadi Gulzar) when He comes. One of the most humble, meticulous in detail. I hopped in the back of a van with her as we squeezed up, during one of those hectic times when you shuffle up and down between Gyan Sarovar and Pandav Bhavan. So far, the only Dadi to ever do so, in my experience, she did not mind. Other times, you'll find her walking up and down PB and GS and hop on the bus. What a Dadi.
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john

reforming BK

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Post17 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:Again i will just add that I am not trying to change how you feel about the current situation but to see things from another perspective.

Also the fact that you are on this forum may show you are willing to see things from a different perspective :)

What the BK org says are it's reasons may not be the real reasons. Unless all the facts are known reasons will not be transparent.

amaranthine

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Re: Free the Murlis

Post17 Aug 2006

howiemac wrote:even a wish to use the distribution of Murlis to control BKs, by which i mean to "encourage" them to go to the centres to morning class, in order to hear them.

Personally, trying to see things from their perspective, I would say this is a definate reason!

This is probably going to be something that we will have to agree to disagree on, but here goes!

From my own experience I find the whole process of morning class very sustaining. It somehow makes my day less mundane and starts me off on the right footing, helps me feel spiritual and special. I am sure if I did not go to morning class I'd get up at the last minute scoff my breakfast (or maybe miss it) and charge off into the world. All my days would blur into one and I'd never take stock. OK, maybe I am being a bit hard on myself and I would in fact get up early to do a bit of meditation and if I had a Murli to hand, read it.

I also take a lot from seeing my fellow students every morning. Yes, I find that very supportive. Bottom line here for me is that I think I take more from the actual physical process of morning class (ritual?) than I do from the Murli itself :shock:. Again, I am probably being a bit hard on myself as I know that the constant reminder of soul and god consciousness that the Sakar Murlis are, is very beneficial.

I believe that the Seniors think that there is a huge benefit in attending morning class, for the reasons I mentioned above (OK, maybe with a much bigger emphasis on the Murli rather than the event) and thus discourage students (who are able to get to a centre) from having their own Murlis so they are not inclined to stay at home and have their own personal 'ritual'.

Is that manipulative? Probably! But my opinion is that it is done from a good part of the heart and not a bad part. OK, that's my first thought on the matter ... So if everyone was mostly like me (now thats another question) I do agree with them on this point.
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john

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Post17 Aug 2006

Say for example; An important point like "Shiva doesn't enter a virgin" is changed to read that he indeed does enter a virgin. Then it could mean the difference of Shiva using Dadi Gulzar as a Chariot or not. Which could make it that only Brahma Baba enters into Dadi Gulzar.

What effect would this have on the BK organisation if it was accepted that only BrahmaBaba now descends into Dadi Gulzar?

If BKs are not able to see all Murlis and see how Murlis have changed then this point will probably never enter their minds. Which sounds a good reason to me that SS keep them unavailable.
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howiemac

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Re: Free the Murlis

Post17 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:i believe that the Seniors think that there is a huge benefit in attending morning class, for the reasons i mentioned above (OK maybe with a much bigger emphasis on the Murli rather than the event) and thus discourage students (who are able to get to a centre) from having their own Murlis so they are not inclined to stay at home and have their own personal 'ritual'

Thanks for your open reply to my question. I am happy for you that you feel that the system works for your benefit. It grated on me, and I know of others who felt the same. I feel that it is one thing for the Seniors to believe that morning class is beneficial, and quite another to use the distribution of Murlis to manipulate students into going. This shows a lack of faith, and a lack of respect. When I was at (real) university, it was up to us whether we attended lectures and tutorials. We were, at age 17, considered mature enough to pick and choose what to attend, and to motivate ourselves to do the work required to pass the exams. The BKWSU behave more like a primary school than a university. They want absolute obedience to their system. And their system is childish and treats their "students" as immature children, who cannot be trusted to look after themselves. This may well suit some, but it certainly doesn't work for many others, including me.

I avoided their mind games easily in my latter BK days by staying at home, having Yoga, and reading an Avyakt Murli (which i always found more enlightening anyway than the Sakars) from the various books that I had been given or bought from the BKs. They wouldn't even give me a copy of that day's Sakar Murli even when I attended morning class, even when I offered to pay for a copy, and even when I had the support of a well respected Brother from London who asked them to give me the Murlis to read (as I, like many, take in the written word much more readily than the spoken word). And they wonder why people leave?

amaranthine

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Post17 Aug 2006

John wrote:An important point like "Shiva doesn't enter a virgin" is changed to read that he indeed does enter a virgin. Then it could mean the difference of Shiva using Dadi Gulzar as a Chariot or not.

i've not heard this before, was this a core belief before 1969 or an isolated point in a Murli?

i've always thought the Sakar Murlis were quite dynamic ie they were very specific to whoever was in front of Baba when they were being spoken. because of this i sort of have this vision of some soul who was a virgin who had been getting all superior beceause of their 'purity', so Baba was gently reminding them that in fact he enters a householder and then decided to push the point a bit further by saying he had only ever come in a householder anyway!

of course if this was a core belief it does sort of blow my little imagining out ot the water!

bansy

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Post17 Aug 2006

So far I think we all agree Murlis are important, for your nourishment at least. How your soul food gets dished out, that's the issue.

What is amusing at times is finding WHO is giving the Murlis, especially when you're in Madhuban. Sometimes, there are bus loads going to Gyan Sarovar, or vice versa to Pandav Bhavan, because one of the Dadis is giving the talk and you'll also get a bit of dhristi at the end. With all respect to the Dadis, but even more respect to the speaker at the other place which is half empty. the Murli is a Murli is a Murli with the same words, whoever speaks it or whoever reads it. Do the Murlis feel the same the following week when you get back to your "place of service". And whose words are they?

So back to the point. Trust and Honesty. And I agree with Howiemac with Faith and Respect. If a soul completely trusts herself or himself towards another soul, it doesn't matter how she or he gets a Murli, the entire works, or just one copy. It is God's property, and we are His trustees. We may abuse it, yes that can happen, but we are still His trustees. Or we may not abuse it, and we might even study harder given this opportunity. His words ARE always protected. Fear is the opposite of Trust.

If a student does not attend a class, this is also down to Trust and Honesty and Faith and Respect. I had a male friend at school who was, how would I say, utterly "useless" (he admitted it so it's okay to use it) at his studies, would miss classes, play truant, cheat. But he never harmed anyone (except maybe to himself). Those who trusted him found out later that he had a impoverished homelife, and looked after many things above his "normal" age of maturity.

So attendance or nonattendance of class is all of choice and reason. Same as the publishing of Murlis, so What are the reasons for not giving out the Murlis, if not on trust and honest feelings ? Arjunbhai has already spoken for the PBKs, but many of us and BKs may have never heard of the PBKs (no offence PBKs) so the PBKs cannot be the only reason. Something to hide ?
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john

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Post17 Aug 2006

These are the points in question in red are the direct bits that have been changed. The first quote is from a later edition(2005) revised Murli and the second quote is from a 1969 revised Murli -

Now there is no kalaa (power of soul consciousness). This knowledge of Father is not in the fate of the biggest personalities or great souls etc. They are proud of themselves. Mostly it (i.e. The Knowledge of Father) is in the luck of poor people. Some people say that if He is such a highest Father, then He must enter into the body of a big king or a pure sage etc. Monks are only pure. He should come in a virgin. Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.11.05, page 2 published by BKs)

The above revised Murli point a manipulated form of the following original revised Murli point dated 15.10.69 –

Now there is no kalaa (degree of soul consciousness). There are no praises for them. Human beings do not know this. It is not in the fate of any of the highest personalities or great souls etc. Mostly it is in the luck of poor people. He is such a highest Father. So He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin? Father sits and explains ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less.

amaranthine

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Post17 Aug 2006

Interesting

Looks like the same Murli to me! what happened to the 5 year cycle though? its become a year out of sync. I suppose that would account for about 400 Avyakt Murlis that would have been read instead of the sakars?

Its even more interesting for the fact that they did not think it necessary to change it in 1969 but did at a later date - it would be really interesting to find out when it was changed. I am not going to get my knickers in a twist about it though as it does sound to me like one of those throw away comments that I personally think Baba is prone to make from time to time in the Sakar Murlis. I often say stuff out loud like this in morning class much to the amusement/bemusement of some of the class.

I'll be honest though I always was a little befuddled why they had to have a Murli team translating the Sakar Murlis afresh when they did the job 5 years previous! doesn't Baba talk about economy of effort?
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john

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Post17 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:I often say stuff out loud like this in morning class much to the amusement/bemusement of some of the class.

You my friend are allowed such indulgences :lol: But for the Supreme Soul Shiva it is said every word he utters is for our benefit.
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arjun

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Post19 Aug 2006

Sister Bansy wrote:So attendance or nonattendance of class is all of choice and reason. Same as the publishing of Murlis, so What are the reasons for not giving out the Murlis, if not on trust and honest feelings ? Arjunbhai has already spoken for the PBKs, but many of us and BKs may have never heard of the PBKs (no offence PBKs) so the PBKs cannot be the only reason. Something to hide ?

The first set of 5 years Murlis must have been revised by 1974 and the second set by 1979. Since the Advance Party had a very minor presence in the first decade of its existence from 1976 to 1986, we can agree that much of the editing in BK Murlis might have taken place as per the thinking/churning of the BKs incharge of Murli section, but most of the manipulations that have occured from the late 1980s onwards are definitely to prevent the progress of Advance Party (alias PBKs).

The original Murlis used to be 3-4 long pages of cyclostyled paper. But if you compare them with the present Murlis printed on offset printing machines they appear to be almost half/ three-fourths of the original Murlis.
    Where has the rest of the portion gone?
And if the BKs have the original dates when these Murlis were narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba then why don't they mention the original dates alongside the date of revision? They did recently (30/31.12.05) publish two Murlis containing the original dates alongside the revised dates. When they can do it on one or two days, why cannot they do it for the rest of the days?

Have they lost the original Murlis or do they not want the present BKs to know the dates of original Murlis?

When they can spend crores of rupees on organising megaprogrammes to idolize Dadis/senior BKs, then cannot they spend a pittance on saving the original Murlis as they are and provide a photocopy/xerox copy of the original Murlis to the desirous BKs?

Would any BK kindly answer these humble querries?

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

bansy

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Post25 Aug 2006

Arjun wrote:The first set of 5 years Murlis must have been revised by 1974 and the second set by 1979.
The original Murlis used to be 3-4 long pages of cyclostyled paper. But if you compare them with the present Murlis printed on offset printing machines they appear to be almost half/ three-fourths of the original Murlis. Where has the rest of the portion gone?

... Although there are 5 years of Murlis, these two statements could suggest the Murlis are actually not in approximate 5year rotations, but up to the BK Murli team to decide if one original Murli to be split and given over two or even three seperate daily portions, thus extending the 5 year duration ? Hence, original dates are not published on the Murlis.
Would any BK kindly answer these humble querries?
Yes, it's really not that difficult to do so, only the BKs can tell us. This whole topic raises a fifth "Faith"..."Faith in the Murli". Without this faith, there is little faith in the BKWSU.

BKs, imagine yourself now going to the morning class today and every, but to discover the Murli you are listening to has been edited ?

Well, it is not bad still, the food for the soul is still tasty, but I prefer the original recipe, the one that Brahma Baba also had.
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john

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Post25 Aug 2006

Bansy wrote:"Faith in the Murli"

Yes, that is a very good addition. I have found some hard copy Murlis dated 1978, if I see a revised later copy of the same Murli I will be able to check, to see if anything has changed.
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