Beyond the BKs

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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howiemac

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Beyond the BKs

Post17 Oct 2012

I have learned a lot from the BKs, some of which I find helpful, and much of which I find a distraction or downright misleading. My aim here is to separate some of the baby from the bathwater. I am only going to cover those things I have direct experience of.

What I am about to say here cannot possibly be verified objectively, other than through your own personal experience, so I am not going to make any attempt to justify or back up any of it. This is how I see and understand things, following a great many years and a great deal of effort exploring these themes, first in trance experiences (many years before I encountered the BKs) and then, in my BK years and since, through Yoga and the resulting realisations. Some of these trance experiences are described elsewhere on this site: see, for example http://www.brahmakumaris.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10&p=26

In my understanding, we each - as souls - create our own personal universe, and so I can only speak for my own universe. The mileage of others may vary!

The BK conception of God is that Shiva (in egg form - see below) is God. This egg form is the reason for their logo, and the shape of their depictions of Shiva in their paintings, Baba-lamps, etc. My conception of God is different from theirs: a non-being which is essentially the sum total of all beings that exist (which in turn makes God the the sum total of ALL that exists), hence God is all and God is nothing. This God is a concept, not a living reality, not an individual soul, and thus is irrelevant, and can be dispensed with completely with no loss. This form of God is normally associated with Vishnu, rather than Shiva, in Hinduism.

Beyond this point I am not going to refer here to God at all, as it brings too much associated baggage, and is not needed (i.e. bathwater).

The BKs Shiva is the lingam (i.e. phallus) form of Shiva, and not the Nataraja or Shankar forms. They claim that the lingam is a distortion of the egg form, but that is nonsense: it represents a penis, and it sits in a yoni, which represents a vagina. Together, the lingam and yoni represent the union of Shiva and Shakti, as per Tantra. This is a cosmic union, not a physical union: the physical representations are symbolic only.

In my direct trance experience, both angelic Brahma (or angelic Lehkraj, if you prefer) and Shiv Baba (or The Watcher, to use his non-BK title) exist: I have met them both, and had interactions with them both.

The white light Subtle Region does exist: again I have direct trance experience of it, as it is where I met Angelic Brahma (BapDada) and several other ghostly beings (ghostly in the sense of being white bodies of light, almost transparent: not ghostly in the sense of being scary in any way). It is like being inside a cloud. They (BapDada's helpers, female in form) delivered me a taste of Dharamraj there, which was shocking (and 100% deserved) and has focused my mind ever since on improving myself spiritually to eliminate my karmic balance (i.e. working towards being karmateet).

All communication there is by telepathy. There is no sound, but BapDada conjures up visions at will. Accordingly the scenes described regularly by the BK trance messengers ring true, however the conversations they report are in their own words, not those of BapDada or whatever Dadi is there, as communication is by telepathy. I was shown the world - I could myself zoom in and out (very like a 3D Google Earth, but with a more powerful zoom! I am sure this is what BapDada refers to as his alokik TV), and the changes from now until the start of the Golden Age. As this vision was apparently emerged (i.e. conjured up) by BapDada, I have no means of ascertaining it's accuracy, but it was generally (unsurprisingly) in accordance with BapDada's teachings - massive geological upheaval, total carnage, but some survivors living on like savages or cavemen in the mountains. I saw dinosaurs coming and going, and then I was zoomed down in person (beyond my control) to the globe, and found myself in an apparent garden of Eden, as a Golden Aged child-like person playing with others naked and unashamed in a fragrant frothy pool: this was a truly blissful experience. We got out of the pool and magically became fully clothed in very colourful outfits, and we walked along a path through woods. I saw no crystal palaces or vehmens, nor anything even slightly technological, but they may have been elsewhere (I suspect not). All the colours were very vivid, and the smells were beautiful and heady, and the sounds were like divine music. Communication was mainly by telepathy, though we were laughing and talking too: there was sound here.

The golden light Subtle Region may also exist, as it is described by BK trance messengers as a place where visions of the Golden Age are granted, and I certainly had the experience of being in the Golden Age. I have also twice, during intense Yoga, experienced golden light flooding a meditation room: this light creates a very powerful blissful feeling of being pure and bathed in love, akin to what I felt in the Golden Age experience just described.

And the red light Subtle Region may also exist: I have had many experience of red light seed stage Yoga, which is accompanied by the visual experience of being immersed in red light. The seed stage does exactly what BapDada says it does: burns away accumulated sanskars, thus purifying one, freeing the soul from the "rust" that has accumulated over (in my case) 50 years of low grade conditioning (and who know what from previous births). I have personally received huge benefits from this, and continue to work with it, with care, and in moderation. I learned to do this is a BK centre, and accordingly, as far as I am concerned, they (or their subtle pals) do teach Raja Yoga, and it is very powerful indeed, and very effective (interestingly, the vast majority of the BKs themselves do not seem to understand even slightly what they are dealing with).

The Soul World also, does exist: I have direct trance experience of it, and this is where I met Shiva. The Soul World is orange, not red, and full of orange souls in the form of points of light surrounded by orange egg-shaped bodies of light. These eggs are the sanskars, divine intellect, and divine mind. The point of light is the soul-consciousness, life itself. The point (which I am happy to accept as infinitesimal in size, as per BapDada) radiates divine-love energy in the form of golden light. The orange colour is created by this golden light shining through a pink substrate, which is the brahm element. This experience was of absolute comfort and bliss, and absolute understanding, and there was telepathic communication with other souls in the form of feelings rather than visions. Again, no sound.

Shiva is full of fun, a trickster, with a fantastic playful energy. I have no trouble whatever in accepting that this character is The Watcher, the soul that never incarnates (as per BapDada). He/she (souls have no gender) is then the being represented by the archetypal Trickster, or The Fool of the Tarot (number zero, or unnumbered). If so, then he/she is the ultimate in innocence and divinity (through never incarnating, and thus remaining free of all but divine "original" sanskars), and so is fairly described by BapDada as the Supreme Soul (supreme in the sense of remaining always a pure soul). However, the idea of hierarchy and "numberwise" makes no sense in the Soul World: there is no rationality or structure here, rather a sense of absolute freedom, a feeling of absolute power and self-sovereignty. Hence the numbers that BapDada assigns, rosaries etc, do not seem to me to have any place here (nor in the Golden Age come to that...).

As this is a BK-related site, I am using BK terminology. This does not mean that I fully accept the Vedic titles that the BKs use. And so I am referring to Lehkraj as Brahma, or BapDada: when he is in spiritual master form I am calling him BapDada, as that is a familiar label, and in this form he has considerable demonstrable spiritual power.

This does not mean that I fully accept that he channels Shiva (and the idea that Shiva speaks is just ridiculous). He may or may not channel Shiva, I have no way to tell. But I have found that powerful yogic states can be achieved by focusing on either Shiva, or BapDada, or on myself (the soul), or on other BK souls who are conducting. The nature of the experience is subtly different in each case.

Yoga with Shiva produces powerful red-light experiences (power, seed stage, personal realisations, the feeling of being "rewired"), which can be overwhelming, and can burn me out, producing storms of Maya (as the emotions trapped in the old sanskars are released).

Yoga with BapDada produces the typical BK white-light experiences (purity), which is also powerful in a less disturbing way (bliss, Gyani realisations). The results of this seem to last only a short time afterwards, whereas a few moments of seed stage Yoga can produce upheavals for weeks!

Focusing on others who are conducting, in a Golden Aged way (i.e. seeing them and me as Golden Aged deities) has, on couple of very good days, produced golden light experiences, which were absolute bliss, and being bathed in spiritual love. I suspect this only happens when the conductor have a loving connection (i.e. Yoga) with me (totally against BK rules of course), but this amazing experience is so rare for me that I have no real idea what the required conditions are, or how it works.

Focussing on I (the soul) produces a similar experience to Shiva but less powerful. I tried that for a couple of years post BKs (with an attitude of self-sufficiency), but returned to the old faithfuls, Shiva and/or BapDada, because they work so well.

I am not at all sure of what to make of the various differences. It is an ongoing experiment.

Is BapDada simply Brahma conducting Shiva? In the same way as you or I could do?

Conducting is a powerful phenomenon. In my early BK days I had a few visionary experiences when BKs were conducting, such as seeing past life faces change in rapid succession on the person conducting, and experiencing glimpses of Golden Age scenes. Later, when they let me conduct I frequently saw auras, and also, regularly, a ghost at the back of the room (confirmed by other conductors who also saw it regularly). Also crowns of white or golden light.

Being the conductor is an interesting : there is the definite feeling of connecting to another being, and of that being channelling through you. But is that being BapDada? Is it Shiva? Someone else? What is the being that tries to speak through you when you are conducting? If you let it do so, what would it say? I suspect that this aspect is normal everyday spiritualism, and any one of a host of beings could use you to speak through...

I have never tried conducting outwith a BK environment (and so not for many years now, especially as they stopped letting me do it even when I was still with them, due to erratic morning class attendance!) I do miss the power of these experiences. But it seems to me to be too dangerous to mess with at home. In a BK meditation room I always felt safe (I trusted them then!), and that the elevated energies produced the famed "canopy of protection". Nowadays I don't trust the BKs, but nevertheless the energy in my local centre when I visited recently was the familiar BapDada energy (better experienced alone, with no BKs around!).

The trouble with being a medium in any way is that you are not in control - you have surrendered to the being that is channeling through you, the being (or beings) that you are conducting. That could be ANY being... you open yourself right up and could easily be possessed, or could cause problems for those you are conducting to. I have been on the receiving end of some nasty gross experiences from BKs who shouldn't have been allowed to conduct.

Whatever, I see no reason to limit things by accepting BapDada's claims that only Brahma combines with Shiva. I combine with Shiva whenever I make the effort to have Yoga with him/her, and others can of course do the same. Fair enough, perhaps, to say that Brahma gives the introduction to Shiva. Maybe..

So much for Yoga. As for Gyan, Dharna, and Seva, when you take BapDada's corporeal mumbo jumbo out of the picture ("I am God", "God speaks", two Babas, numbers, rosaries, hierarchies, kingdoms, subjects, service service service, the carrot and stick exhortations to the "children" to get their act together, the hyperbolic blessings, the exhortations and methods to increase the numbers and to gain political influence, advice on running the BKWSU and the maintenance and development of its property empire, etc. etc.), what is left makes more sense ("I am a soul",karmic law, Dharamraj, reincarnation, cyclical time, Three Worlds, The Tree of souls, simple and effective methods for dharna): all of this can be found in ancient writings, and in a variety of sources that predate the BKWSU, but where BapDada adds value is in simplifying the horrendous complexity of the older sources. However, to gain this, one must become expert at discriminating between the diamonds and the lumps of ****.

My conclusion for now is that, for those who wish to take something useful with them from the carnage that BK abduction creates, the occult spiritualist aspects of the BKs are much more interesting and helpful (when handled with care) than the rest of it, although there are always some diamonds to be found amongst the rubble in the Murlis.

(All of the above may be revised in the light of subsequent experience!)
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ex-l

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post17 Oct 2012

... and then we may just find out that all that is only one world or spiritual realms amongst 1,000s.

Do you have a date for this Destruction and heavenly recreation? It would be interesting to ask, but impossible to answer, if it is something that *is* to happen, or whether it was a flashback to something that *did* happen far back in human existence, e.g. an "Atlantis" type myth/experience. This may also be true of BK stuff.

When do you expect it to happen ... and if it does not happen, how it will change your opinion of all of your visions and experiences?

I can certainly agree that in the BK gold rush ... and all the politicking and status grabbing that has followed ... the mob have crushed and destroyed most of what lay under their feet. Personally, I am not waiting any more.

I remember when one of the first of the early Western BKs left, another Simon. From time to time active BKs would accost him with their fear tripping asking him what he was going to do for when Destruction came. His answer was, "practise screaming" ... along with everyone else. A practical answer if ever there was one. He left 30 years ago and has had a full and rewarding life since. Many of his generation also left; Aiden Walker, Robert Shubow, Eugene Romain, Simon Vivian, the other 'evil' bearded Scotsman who opened up South America ... most went on to have families, own homes, have careers, and find themselves again.

What is left? Do you have anything to do with the BKWSU these days? How does it look for you know? Are there any great or genuine mystics amongst their numbers? Are the numbers still up and increasing, or are they falling?
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howiemac

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post17 Oct 2012

ex-l wrote:Do you have a date for this Destruction and heavenly recreation?... When do you expect it to happen

In the future! Maybe! I have no idea when, and I don't need to know. I expected the world to end in 1999 - and I had this expectation from years before the period of trance visions - By January 1st 2000, I was very sceptical about any predictions of the date of Destruction.

There was nothing in the vision to suggest a specific date, even approximately. It could be tomorrow, it could be millions of years away, or the vision could have been fake and misleading (but I found it compelling and I do believe it). At the time of the experience, what I took from it was simply that "time is a loop" (which was a new concept for me then), and that the world never actually does end, and that the human race, albeit much depleted, is not wiped out (the survivors scraping a living like "savages" in the hills).

I don't share the BK obsession with destruction and the date of it. That said, I do expect our current civilisation to finish its collapse into ruins sometime soon, probably within my lifetime.
... and if it does not happen, how it will change your opinion of all of your visions and experiences?

It won't. I have already been through that at the end of 1999.

I had a long and intense lucid dream a couple of years before the trance visions, which was exactly about the breakdown of our society and economic and political systems that we are now experiencing, and the feeling was very strongly of end-times. I was serene throughout this dream, and everyone else in it was oblivious to what was going on (continuing to watch propaganda on the TV). A couple of years before that I had a lucid dream of being in a nuclear holocaust. And in my BK days I had two lucid dreams, one of sudden flooding (Atlantis style), and the other of masses of people being killed simultaneously by a massive fireball (and my role was in the Subtle Regions helping them let go of their bodies). I do not expect all these scenes to materialise. Rather, I see them as lessons, teachings, testing my reactions, etc. However the first one mentioned is happening right now ...

Accordingly I am not concerned about what will happen, and try to focus on living in the moment. The experiences I have described (and others I have not yet made public) have left me with no fear of death or destruction. But I live my life on the basis that I have decades to go yet, and accordingly take care of my health, and do pursue long term objectives.

I have learned not to have expectations!
His answer was, "practise screaming" .

I love it!
He left 30 years ago and has had a full and rewarding life since. Many of his generation also left

Yes I have met and/or communicated with some of these characters. I myself am having a more full and rewarding life now than when I was under the BK yoke. I enjoy life more with each passing year, although I hate the ever-degrading state of humanity and the way we are raping planet Earth. My enjoyment of life comes from making steady progress in losing baggage from the past, including the BKs: in short, from making spiritual and psychological progress through working on myself.
Do you have anything to do with the BKWSU these days?

No. I have visited my local centre, I think five times in the past 7 years, and attended a couple of outside programmes: some visits were worthwhile (good Yoga experiences) and others made me wish I had not gone (bad behaviour by fringe BKs, bad vibes). Otherwise, no contact, and very little interest.
How does it look for you now?

Getting steadily worse ... sinking into the mire ...
Are there any great or genuine mystics amongst their numbers?
hmmm, don't know - I have high regard for the Madhuban trance messengers (Gulzar, Shashi, little Mohini), but never had the chance to really talk with them. I also have a high regard for Sudesh; she is the only one that was able to answer my more esoteric questions, but I have had too little interaction with her also.
Are the numbers still up and increasing, or are they falling?

Here in the Scotland I think they are in decline - two centres have closed, leaving three - but I am not sure, as I have so little to do with them.
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ex-l

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post17 Oct 2012

howiemac wrote:... the survivors scraping a living like "savages" in the hills.

Yes, I've heard things are really bad in Govan.

If you have not seen it, or missed an early recommendation, try catching the movie called 'The Road'. It's a wonder the BKs are not recommending to anyone considering leaving.

I think it is just best not to think about things beyond one's own power and follow the leads in everyday life. For all their manic "efforts", I'd suspect most of the BKs will be screaming too if it happens.

I suppose you have a challenging message for many BKs who aren't even having such experiences within Gyan.

What was your Dharamraj experience?
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howiemac

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post19 Oct 2012

Yes, I've heard things are really bad in Govan.

lol :-).
I suppose you have a challenging message for many BKs who aren't even having such experiences within Gyan.

Yes - I got the impression (honourable exception Neville) they thought I was making it all up. It makes no difference to me now what they think. I had assumed that such experiences would be commonplace amongst them, but apparently not. I regret that I did not have a chance to discuss them with any of the trance messengers.
What was your Dharamraj experience?

There was a group of old women in ghostly white bodies (same as BapDada), standing behind and to his left. BapDada pointed me in their direction, and the foremost of them (the one nearest to me, who appeared to be in charge of the group) beckoned me with a smile. So I went to her (I don't think there was any option at that point, it was more like she summoned me and made me move there).

The next thing I knew was I started experiencing a series of life scenes, one after the other. This was lengthy and involved, and I do not remember much of the details of the scenes now, but the mechanism and the effect it had on me remains very clear: I experienced a number of instances of my own bad behaviour, from the viewpoint of those who had been affected by it.

The scenes replayed, one after the other, and instead of being me, I was literally in the shoes of the person who had been badly affected by it. So, I directly experienced my actions through their reactions. I saw everything from their perspective, and I relived their suffering. It was horrifying. In every scene, my behaviour was something I had felt justified in doing, or had thought was "nothing". The horror was in the pain they suffered (i.e. that I was now suffering in this Dharamraj experience), and in the realisation that I had callously mistreated people who were close to me, unthinkingly, and had remained oblivious, until this experience, of the suffering I had produced.

As the scenes unfolded, I kept remembering other incidents where I knew had behaved badly (and where I thought my behaviour was much worse than in the scenes I was now experiencing), but none of those came up. I realised that, just by feeling remorse, I had neutralised the karma and so atoned for what I had done. The suffering I was re-living was for the seemingly-little things I had felt justified in, or thought insignificant, and so had had no remorse for. This realisation shook me also.

Mercifully the scenes finished after I had that realisation, but I was left in no doubt that this was just a taster: there were many more scenes, not yet covered. I had not had the full experience, merely a preview, a warning, a wake-up call.

I was back with the old ghostly/angelic ladies, and they were smiling, and BapDada beckoned me back, and it was straight into the next experience (seeing the world globe below, and the future looping into the past).
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Mr Green

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post19 Oct 2012

we learnt to walk away, that was the biggest realisation or touching of all

jann

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post19 Oct 2012

Howiemac, I think you have been reading to many Murli's and other BK stuff. I bet if you reed about spiders for a week you also dream about it and even hallucinate seeing spiders everywhere.
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ex-l

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post19 Oct 2012

Amazingly, I have met people who have never even dreamed. I think he said he had many of these before meeting the BKWSU, Jann.
howiemac wrote:Yes - I got the impression (honourable exception Neville) they thought I was making it all up.

Yes, they are pretty ignorant that way. I bet more than half of them have and are experiencing nothing.

I don't doubt you had your experiences. I just always wonder at such things. If you read across the subject, back into time to the great examples like Swedenborg etc, and talk to unknown individuals who had also had experience, they are all so real and vivid ... and different. Most point to their being many worlds and many dimensions, a concept the BKs keep their adherents *well* away from.

Whose is the "real" one or the right one? As you remember, one criticism of the BK's Knowledge/Cycle etc is that it only applies to them ... or, to put it in another way, they are attempting to lock others into.

I am thinking of a young man I know who followed some Tibetan Lamas seriously, i.e. shaved up and took robes. He too started having intense out of the body experiences which, if at a push, I could have attempted to shoe horn back into the BKs' framework but did not really (his Paramdham/Soul World experience was filled with a rainbow of colors and involved movement back and forward to free of any 5,000 year Cycle). When he went to his teachers they responded in pretty much the same way as the BKs did to you. They obviously did not know and had not had them themselves.

The easiest thing to do is to discredit such expereince; "not according to Gyan" ... "nothing more than fruits of Bhakti" ... "manmat" ... "golden Maya" ... "of no benefit, so I would want them (oh no)". At least they would be honest if they say, "Gosh, I am so jealous! I wish I had experiences like that".

Unfortunately, it seems to be impossible to know empirically what they all are and the safest deduction is to take, as you have done, that they were a lesson for you at that time ... etc etc etc. I have plenty of vivid dreams ... which I accept as entertaining but of little real value ... but I've never had such vivid out of the body type trance experiences as you describe. I have had bad dreams of ghost-like BKs!
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howiemac

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post20 Oct 2012

jann wrote:Howiemac, I think you have been reading to many Murli's and other BK stuff. I bet if you reed about spiders for a week you also dream about it and even hallucinate seeing spiders everywhere.

As ex-l points out, jann, these experiences I have related happened (as already stated) many years before I encountered the BKs and their teachings.
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howiemac

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post20 Oct 2012

ex-l wrote:I don't doubt you had your experiences. I just always wonder at such things. If you read across the subject, back into time to the great examples like Swedenborg etc, and talk to unknown individuals who had also had experience, they are all so real and vivid ... and different. Most point to their being many worlds and many dimensions, a concept the BKs keep their adherents *well* away from.

Yes. As I understand it, we each create our own universe, within our own egg, as souls. There is obviously an overlap, allowing us to apparently share experiences, but each soul in a shared experience will still have a different experience. And so there is a great variety of experience, and nobody can be held to be absolutely right or wrong. BapDada teachings indicate the opposite, that there is absolute truth, and that he is the holder of it - the usual standpoint of a religious leader ...
At least they would be honest if they say, "Gosh, I am so jealous! I wish I had experiences like that".

Yes - but honesty is in short supply with them ...
Unfortunately, it seems to be impossible to know empirically what they all are and the safest deduction is to take, as you have done, that they were a lesson for you at that time ... etc etc etc.

Absolutely - I regarded it all, at the time, as lessons: I was earnestly seeking answers to many questions, and I was provided with them, one by one - although each answer seemed to create more questions ... They were the experiences I required at that time. I was living in a special place, at that time; at Hoselaw in Roxburghshire, by the site of a 14th Century Celtic-Christian monastery, on a ley line (this was by "chance" as I did not know these aspects of this place when I took the cottage). I met several people who lived there or had lived there, who had had weird and wonderful psychic experiences when they lived there; seeing UFO's, a ghost, and other experiences. They each claimed that circumstances had moved them there when in a time of need, and that their lives had been kickstarted in a very positive way by their period of living there, and the experiences they had. My experience of Hoselaw was likewise. So, it was a powerful spot, that seemed to act as some sort of spiritual training centre. Each of us got what we needed.

At that time in my life I had many vivid dreams in which I was learning to do things - I learned to fly in my dreams, after several lessons! It was simply a question of believing I could do it. There was definitely a subtle teacher (or teachers) who I had been aware of for years, looking after me, but who came to the fore at this point in my life.
I have plenty of vivid dreams ... which I accept as entertaining but of little real value ... but I've never had such vivid out of the body type trance experiences as you describe. I have had bad dreams of ghost-like BKs!

Maybe you did not take enough drugs when you were young?! Seriously though, I have always been, in this birth, a bit psychic and a mystic, and I suspect the experiences I had go with that territory, not with entheogens. I did not have many other such trance experiences: one or two small things, less obviously (if at all) related to the BKs. I have had no such thing for well over 20 years now. However, I do get touchings regularly, voices in the head (I know!), and I am consciously aware of telepathy at times.

The ghostly BKs you dreamt may have been warning you of their true nature, or else a visualisation of your concerns about them? I write down dreams when I waken up, and I have found many times that subsequent events play out as indicated in a dream, i.e. the dream (symbolically) prepares you for major future events. I had a few wild dreams while a BK, such as Dadi Janki living in a crooked tower, and making her friend Maya very welcome there; young BK Sisters boxing my face bare knuckled ... etc ... I think these are just like the Jann's spiders! though the Janki dream may have been a warning ...
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Mr Green

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Re: Beyond the BKs

Post21 Oct 2012

just a dream, best not to read too much

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