Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK ones

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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clearernow

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Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK ones

Post12 Jan 2013


Roy wrote:I believe it [Big Bang theory] is just a fairy tale and will never be proven; and the same goes for Darwinism. It appears we are just going to have to agree to disagree, until absolute proof emerges. You put your faith in human scientists, I put my faith in Godfather Shiv"

Roy, this topic [Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year Cycle] doesn't interest me but the above echoed something within me and made me smile (thanks!)- we are really having our individual beliefs posing them as truth to others while absolute truth will emerge over time - we choose our faith in the meanwhile :-).
There is only one being who is unbiased IMO, and that is God! There can only be one being who sees everything clearly, because he remains on the outside looking in; a detached observer ... Everyone else is just guessing for the most part.

Have you thought about why does God remain so mysterious and allows everyone else to keep guessing for so long ...? Do you believe in a day that God will make it crystal clear to all in the world wherein doubts will have no place?
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Roy

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post12 Jan 2013

clearernow wrote:Roy, this topic doesn't interest me but the above echoed something within me and made me smile (thanks!)- we are really having our individual beliefs posing them as truth to others while absolute truth will emerge over time - we choose our faith in the meanwhile :-).

Hi Clearernow, you make a good point ... I am merely posting my opinions or beliefs, I cannot prove them ... I am posting an alternative viewpoint for others to consider should they wish to. As individuals, we resonate with different things but, ultimately, truth is absolute; so it will interesting to see which of us, if any, have gotten close to it. I believe the truth will be revealed sooner rather than later; so I am looking forward to that.
clearernow wrote:Have you thought about why does God remain so mysterious and allows everyone else to keep guessing for so long ...? Do you believe in a day that God will make it crystal clear to all in the world wherein doubts will have no place?

Yes, I do believe it will all be crystal clear with no doubts, especially the topic of who is the Godfather; who will be revealed in practical form, i.e. through a corporeal body at the end, for the whole world to witness. On this point at least, the world will be in agreement.

With regard to the first part of your question, one of the reasons God doesn't just tell us everything straight out is because we need time to assimilate and think about each new thing He presents us with. Then there is the point, that if He revealed everything straight away, it is easier for us to become arrogant about knowledge, and feel we ourselves are God, although this happens anyway for some. But He saves the miracles and proofs for when study is completed; and this is about Brahma Baba Krishna becoming complete in knowledge, i.e. Brahma so Vishnu ... and the topic he becomes complete in is who is the God of the Gita in corporeal form, who the whole world will witness at the end?

Until he achieves this complete unfailing recognition and faith, the night of Brahma continues for him, and thus for the rest of the Brahmins and the world. Until the first prince of the Golden Age becomes complete in this recognition; no other soul can become complete, and achieve the karmateet stage.

So God doesn't just reveal Himself openly in His true form, because this knowledge is a test of recognising the Father completely, before He does this; this is the crux of our efforts as Brahmins. And it is only when His permanent Chariot himself becomes perfect, can God actually be revealed to the world with no doubts remaining ... because until the corporeal Chariot becomes perfect; there will always be a difference between what God is narrating or saying, and how His Chariot behaves or acts in relation to those teachings.

If there is any disparity, no matter how small; there cannot be absolute unequivocal proof, that this is God Himself in corporeal form. But once the corporeal Chariot becomes perfect and equal to God; then there is no longer any duality, or question of who is speaking to us; it will be clear for all to see and witness with their own eyes ... God will be clearly recognisable in front of us in corporeal form; and this it the meaning of Shiv Jayanti ... the birth or complete revelation of Godfather Shiv, to the world.
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clearernow

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post13 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Clarification please, clearernow ... by "god" do you mean the god spirit of the BKs, or another one?

Thank you, Roy, for your answers. Yes, there are few areas where we clearly resonate and I agree that God will reveal the absolute truth at some point of time which I hope is soon.

Thnak you, ex-l, for clarifying on PBK versions. I did come across the whole PBK story many times and was approached by some of them years ago including very intellectual ones with scientific explanations to prove that their versions were better than BKs but to me, personally, it never appealed; including the Dixit story (I am even aware of the criminal cases against him and jail etc).

To me, Corporeal form will not matter in the end because God is not limited to it and I made my faith firm only when I tested my experiences which did not depend on any corporeal form, Seniors or even annual visits to Madhuban etc. If I had not experienced the presence of God in my daily life and depended on that experience to be through a physical form, I would never have taken this path because you can not confine God into a physical form and in Avyakt Murlis the message has always been clear that you can experience God where ever and whenever you like.

Love
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dany

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post13 Jan 2013

clearernow wrote:Have you thought about why does God remain so mysterious and allows everyone else to keep guessing for so long ...? Do you believe in a day that God will make it crystal clear to all in the world wherein doubts will have no place.

That is a question, no one can answer ..!!
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Patzcuaro

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post13 Jan 2013

HI again.

I spent months in Madhuban, and years in Mexico devoted to silence following BK rules, and I was never, never, asked or even suggested to give any money, land or free labour. Sorry to tell you Ex-I, or exbrama, but you are missing the point.

But I is good someone is doing research on The Cycle or if Destruction will happen on Monday or next Thursday or in a couple of years, because as I consider it non-important I won't spend even five minutes on thinking about it, so I'll wait for your resume and I'll keep it as "paralell data".

I ignore about the time you spent on BK, but I do not know, even one, amongst the at least 70 ex-BK that I've met (with at least 5 years of BK full emersion) that keep on their minds on Destruction or scientific explanation of the 5000 years cycle.

But they do talk about nice experiences in mediation or feeling better in their daily relations.

Thanks any way
Patzcuaro
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post13 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote:... or feeling better in their daily relations.

Well, show a little politeness and help me in my "daily relations" with you.

I am very keen that at least BKs learn to be honest from this website.

As I asked, when you say "in silence", do you mean mentally connected with the god of the BKs?

Let's not use words to mislead others.
bkti-pit wrote:Clearernow was honest enough to acknowledge that it does not prove God albeit it does not matter to him or her because he or she is satisfied with the results; it works!

I guess I'd have to ask, 'what' worked to 'what' effect at 'what' cost ... and measure it against comparables? Is BK silence the same as the Sanyasi brand, does it wash the soul cleaner than Buddhism?

I think the BK leaders have a tendency to claim credit for anything in their equation and exclude the full costs or problems when they arise. I think they actually have not a clue about the science of their own religion.

The reason I am very specific about their god, or any BK associates discussion involving vague god talk, is that the BK appear to be playing the same game as other religions before them, of putting their god on top of other gods which came before them and usurping them, claiming theirs is the highest without evaluating it, and thereby they are the highest too. You know how they are. All this "everyone/everything is the same" talk is really just the BKs demanding to be treated equal to other religions.

They think they are better than everyone else but really they are just struggling for acceptance and handicapped by their lack of history, logic, understanding etc.
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ex.brahma

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post13 Jan 2013

patzcuaro

If silence is all what interests you in BK, I can refer you to a better option.

There are about 5 million sadhus in India. They are the masters of silence without doubt, and some of them can remain silent for weeks and even months ... why don’t you join them ..??
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Roy

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Years

Post13 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:To me, Corporeal form will not matter in the end because God is not limited to it and I made my faith firm only when I tested my experiences which did not depend on any corporeal form, Seniors or even annual visits to Madhuban etc. If I had not experienced the presence of God in my daily life and depended on that experience to be through a physical form, I would never have taken this path because you can not confine God into a physical form and in Avyakt Murlis the message has always been clear that you can experience God where ever and whenever you like.

Yes, it is true that you can have remembrance of God whenever you wish, but as long as you know where He is. If you wish to think about a friend, do you simply visualise their soul, or do you first remember their physical form. God can only be revealed to the world in practical form, because this is a practical world we live in. Angels will be revealed in practical form for the same reason. Disembodied souls cannot be proven as being perfect... there always has to be a corporeal medium. There are many points in the Murlis about this subject, which i can send to you should you wish to see them.
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Patzcuaro

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post14 Jan 2013

Thanks for advices on other silence practices.

I do consider silence the only way to achieve anything when it refers to inner knowledge but I also consider important to talk and share about different visons and that is why I also put silence aside and write on this forum which I consider very interesting.

Ex-I, when I refer to experiencing God, I do not talk about BKs or any other cult's God.

I only talk, and I barely do it, about my relation with God from a personal point of view because I am convinced that is different for each one of us, and I bet is even different for every BK.
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clearernow

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post14 Jan 2013

Clarification please, clearernow ... by "god" do you mean the god spirit of the BKs, or another one?

ex-l, regarding your question above, I mean my own personal relationship with God where my faith lies. It has nothing to do with a form or shape or label so it doesn't matter which God you want it to relate to as as there is no universal definition of God at this point of time, and everyone relates it to their experiences.
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post14 Jan 2013

clearernow wrote:... there is no universal definition of God at this point of time and everyone relates it to their experiences

There may not be a universal definition of God in the world but there is a very clear, distinct and absolute definition of the god of BK within the BKWSU.
    What do you think of the god of the BKs?
Patzcuaro wrote:I do not talk about BK's or any other cult's God ... and I bet is even different for every BK.

I have myself argued exactly the same as your second statement, and it is one of the problems within BKism ... until they invent a "yoga-o-meter" to check every BK is performing the 'official' prescribed form.

OK, I am trying to understand your point of view.

From an orthodox BK point of view, I think they would cast you as a "sanyasi" and not doing their Raja Yoga ... that is to say, you were having an experience of the Brahm element *without* their ShivBaba in it.

However, I am unsure.

If this or these experiences had been with you *before* your involvement with the Brahma Kumaris, then I would be more inclined to believe you were *not* still having Yoga with the god of the BKs. But if you were initiated into a relationship with the god of the BKs, then even if you left the BKWSU, you could still be having a relationships with it. Many BKs and some ex-BKs do.

I think more people should consider an introduction to BKism as an initiation. They claim it is an initiation into a relationship with a number of spirit beings, e.g. BapDada, although they do not use the word.
    Is what you are saying that the BKs have a limited understanding of a greater, non-personal God, and their conception of it is basically wrong; and that you are having experiences of this greater god?

    In short, that the BK Baba is not God?
Of course, we both know that from a BK point of view, that would be considered as absolutely wrong by them.
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clearernow

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post14 Jan 2013

What do you think of the god of the BKs?

ex-l, you seem to have a mission to prove something I guess so you keep coming with the same questions time and again :-)

In essence, BKs definition of God is eternal Shiva - a point of light, benefactor, divine energy, ocean of all virtues - peace, love and happiness, our true spiritual mother and Father and so on ... and essence of meditation is to connect to that source through the power of soul consciousness. The labels and mediums are not important here, personal experiences are.

And I see this as totally useless to prove that BKs' God is not God or not your type of God etc (similar to the traditional religion's divide on God) because it works for them and it doesn't for you. Same stands true for BKs - they cannot prove it either. If they had proven it through a scientific or any other method, by now they would have had billions of followers so in essence neither you nor them can prove it as such.

If you have your own definitions then go ahead with experiences of them which will prove something to you but not to them who experience the divine presence on daily life through the BK practice.

God has never been realized or proven by anyone in the world through argumentative power or scientific study - whether its religion or any spiritual practice, it's always a matter of faith which develops when your beliefs start working for you positively in life. If they don't, you go away and find your own version of God but you cannot take away the experiences of those who keep that faith and it works for them beautifully

I, personally, believe that human beings have been craving for God for ages so there will be a natural pull towards a "true God" amidst plethora of definitions, labels, confusion and deceit. Your mission may take you somewhere but if you have a passion of revealing such true God to the world, then rather than trying to prove BKs wrong about their God, which is a futile exercise, I will advise you research on a "true God", have people experience that and that will a much more better mission to have as you will then save the mankind from the deceit in the name of God. Honestly, I will take that onboard as well.

Cheers
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post15 Jan 2013

clearernow wrote:you seem to have a mission to prove something ... In essence, BKs definition of God is ...

I like clarity and accuracy ... and, I promise you, the last thing on Earth I would do is start to sell yet another God or religion.

My understanding of your response is that you still think the god of the BKs and "God" are the same thing.

I am sorry but all this talk of "experience", and pushing Brahma Kumarism into the real of subjectivity or relativity, is a distraction. No, I am sorry ...

A "Supreme God" has to be above subjective experience and interpretation. Devas, Demi-Gods, Asuras, Jinns ... call them what you like ... can be anything and get up to any nonsense they want, but a Supreme God has to be above all that.

OK, be honest and say something like, "I left the BKs but I am still covering my bets just in case it all turns out to be true" or, "I left the BKs but I am still hooked on their meditation".

I guess I spent some time in that state too after I left too ... thinking that the BKs were amongst the more sincere or pure religions. But, then as I got older ... and learned a bit more about life and found out more about them ... I started to see them and their god spirit in a different light.
    Truly divine beings don't trick, deceive and mislead ... it's as simple as that.
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bkti-pit

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post15 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:I guess I'd have to ask, 'what' worked...

For many contemplative yogis the experience of peace and bliss is worth more than material wealth, physical comforts and most of what science can provide. If their practice can bring them what they value most it works for them.

I am one such yogi. I quit practising BK type meditation as soon as I became unequivocal about the God Shiva of the BKs being a fraud and almost immediately concluded that there is no God. It does not stop me from experiencing peace and bliss in my life.
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post15 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:I am one such yogi. I quit practising BK type meditation ... It does not stop me from experiencing peace and bliss in my life.

I meant "what" as in what made/makes that happen ... how to make it reproducible etc. I am not sure about other schools as I have never gone through a full or real initiation but this one's still all quite a mystery. For some it works, for others it doesn't. It's really material for a different topic, but how do you know you aren't still doing BK meditation?

Can 'it' work before and without believing in the 5,000 Year Cycle? Yes, absolutely. I know that to be true from some students I went through the course with and never made it past lessons two or three.

Then why encumber the religion with such a belief?

I am sorry to bend your point a little but I am trying to keep 'on topic'. I am suspecting the BKs will throw it out eventually. I am just wondering how they will do so ... has anyone tried to serious look at real historic events?

It's too easy just to say, "all scientist are bad ... all science is wrong ... they made mistakes about carbon dating while learning about the process, therefore all dating systems are wrong".
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