Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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kmanaveen

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post25 Jun 2013

moreclearernow wrote:1 will be important to few and 2 as well to some more

I wonder about point 2.

If you have not experienced yourself as soul, I find it hard how you can experience any "Supreme Soul"(God, BK God or light, love). On the other hand, my personal experience with BKs is that most of them never had this experience of "self" and silence, and the basis of their keep following the Gyan is not much different from Bhakti.

No problem, if they find it good for them and content with it, they are free to do that. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, the fault with RajYoga meditation (unlike other meditation techniques) is that it never brings you back to the self, the first step of this ladder, and then to rise up to any higher level of consciousness (Supreme Soul as per BKism). Actually, it makes one forget oneself by keep remembering Baba and that I find mostly hypnotic way of meditation that can bring any weird experience from mind (although even by BKism, lesson of soul should precede the lesson of Supreme Soul).

In nutshell, if BKs don't care about soul and silence experience (point 2) then I don't understand how and what God they feel connected to.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post25 Jun 2013

Only take out point 1 and 90% of BK will come out and the new people will never join ... that is, if BKWSU come out honestly that the teachings of Destruction is fallacy and a deception.

moreclearnow

Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post29 Jun 2013

kmanaveen wrote:... and I could be wrong, the fault with RajYoga meditation (unlike other meditation techniques) is that it never brings you back to the self, the first step of this ladder, and then to rise up to any higher level of consciousness (Supreme Soul as per BKism).

The first stage in Raja Yoga meditation is self-realization or soul consciousness. Considering yourself as soul first and then remembering God is one of the key BKisms.

Experience of silence in Rajayoga meditation is what leads to higher level of consciousness and develops better control on the mind. It may take a while to practice but this is what Raja Yoga meditation is about.
PP wrote:hmm. Unfortunately your argument is actually mine. You are agreeing with me.

Points 2, 3 and 4 can be found elsewhere with only very slight variations.

The only Gyan that has not changed since the beginning of the "yugya" is the 5000 year cycle, and Destruction.

Point 2 - I am soul not body, is not unique. I am point of light is not unique (see wikipedia even, for references to Jyoti bindu etc). This idea evolved and manifested in its current state in the 1960s BKs

Point 3 - the non-interventionist god with whom a "yogi" - or whatever term you prefer - connects to via some kind of resonance or realisation that requires super-mundane or Altered State of consciousness - not unique. See Christian, and other, mystical practices. The idea of non-anthropomorphic god only became BK Gyan in the late 1940s or early 1950s, but as a lingum (phallic shape) - the theory of the point form of god came later, the 1960s.

Point 4 - meditative affirmations of spiritual qualities - not unique. Slowing and calming of thoughts, not unique. Entering cathartic super-mundane "silent" states (seed stage, tapasya etc) also not unique. read Buddhist and Hindu tantra, shamanic and other practices ...

It is not unique on a point level ... spirituality cannot be re-invented. It has always been in the core of all religions. It's the combination of all of these key aspects of self + God realization and putting it to practical implementation is what I consider unique. Can you give an example where the above points put together are made to practice in daily life to the level as in BKism? Where did the theory come is not important. What is important is the practice.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

Can we please stick 'on topic' and ... "Criticise Brahma Kumaris Info"?

One question again, please answer it directly.
    Are you talking about 'God' or 'the god spirit of the Brahma Kumaris' here? From the way you write, it's not clear.
As "the source" in this case is the all demanding god spirit of the Brahma Kumaris', filtered and manipulated via the BKWSU PBKIVV leadership, of course it matters what it is. If 'the god spirit of the Brahma Kumaris' is not 'God', then the movement and the individuals with in it are being completely misled ... God knows where apart from death and Destruction.

I am sorry but, for me, I see no evidence that all the now ritualised and obsessive behaviour of the BKs ... because it is based on so much falsehood and illogic ... is bearing anything, or at least 'enough', good.

Of course, I know that there have been little incidental and often accidental goods along its history but I have to discount them because the motivations, intentions or politics behind them were not good; for example, Dr Vinay's village project which the leadership at first resisted.

It is almost as if the good only managed to happen against the will of the power and wealth obsessed leadership.

For me, the leadership's level of consciences and activity is the greatest evidence that the path is a waste of time; that unlike "spirituality", which in theory clarifies and liberates, Brahma Kumarism uses, suppresses and misleads in the service of gaining that power and wealth.

A statement like "spirituality is the core of all religion" sounds wonderful ... but does it actually mean anything. Religion is the business of spirituality. Business, politics and self-interest ... finances and territory ... are the bones, flesh and skin of all organized religions that all too often become obstructions to spirituality.

Typically, the BK leaderships distracts individuals attention from them, and what is going on how, instead trying to keep individuals' focus on the whooshy, subjective and addictive "experience" instead.

"Don't think ... don't question ... just surrender ... and hand over all your resources to us; mind, body, wealth and property."

At most, it's skilful robbery via hypnosis that never delivers what it promises but constantly morphs leading individuals further and further into a desert one shimmering mirage after another.

moreclearnow

Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

Adding to Criticisms (rather suggestions to improve):
    1. ex-l's intereference and control in each and every thread should be reduced. Let it work like a forum where for each thread multiple views are welcome rather than intrusion of ex-l into each post made.

    2. While it is down to you to post what you like, it may help if you reduce the length of posts for readers to get the message more productively.

    3. Clearly define what this forum wants to achieve. Often it's represented that it is meant for reform within BKWSU while there is nothing from BKism that is considered good or true! Anyone reading few posts here can make out that you will be more happy to destroy BKWSU's existence. Support and sharing for Ex-BKs or family members is good part of the forum but it is certainly not meant to reform BKs.

    4. Respect Anonymity

    5. Refrain from publishing personal information of individuals involved in BKs - If you are fighting against an organization that's fine and focus should be on issues not people - please consider the harm it can do to those individuals involved particularly those who are not the leaders.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

Clearernow wrote:ex-l's intereference and control in each and every thread should be reduced.

WHY ON EARTH?

Because he is bringing up the reality to the world and the putting straight forward and convincing facts about the corrupted BKWSU?

You want to apply BK teachings here also .. Neglect/ignore the one who is speaking against you no matter how valid his speech is ..

kmanaveen

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:"The first stage in Raja Yoga meditation is self-realization or soul consciousness. Considering yourself as soul first and then remembering God is one of the key BKisms. Experience of silence in Rajayoga meditation is what leads to higher level of consciousness and develops better control on the mind. It may take a while to practice but this is what Raja Yoga meditation is about."

From my experience, the first lesson is where the soul is and its consciousness begins and ends. After that it's all remembering Baba and Baba and that never brings you back to yourself.

Do you really think in the Seven Day Course and one day lesson of soul anyone can experience the self? I found this realization completely missing, even in many Seniors Didis and BKs. It's not silence dear, it's all noise of "Baba, Baba" and sometimes more noise of silence they preach than they seem to experience.

What I found that they simply do a self-hypnosis and have no idea about silence. I don't know about you.

moreclearnow

Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

kmanaveen wrote: Do you really think in the Seven Day Course and one day lesson of soul anyone can experience the self?

No, I don't believe so.

Nothing can be achieved or experienced just in a day of a seven day course on a spiritual journey - it's just theory afterall. Putting the understanding of self into the meditation practice takes time. I. personally, experience deep silence and realization of self through Raja Yoga. Now, whether Seniors do it or not I don't know and cannot comment on what they experience. I can only say that my experiences of self matched those of a lot of other fellow travellers on the path. I am keeping it short because ex-l has suggested me to be on the topic of criticism of BKinfo here and we are going back to BKWSU criticism:-).

Please raise this as a separate topic if you wish to discuss this. Thank you.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:1. ex-l's intereference and control in each and every thread should be reduced.

Your repeating what is being said on the BKs' forum, do you also post there? I cannot remember if you answered the same questions as 'clearernow' (and here) but if you just answer my simple and straightfoward questions, I think you will find I butt in far less.
    a) Do you consider God and the god of the BKs to be the one and same individual?
    b) If so, how do you negotiate believing in them to be god and not believing in the 5,000 Year Cycle (if what you say is true)?
ex-l generally respond to the individual as ex-l find them and show respect to them if they show respect to the issues we raise. If ex-l senses they are being less than straightforward or disrespectful to those issues, then ex-l's respect drops equivalently to the point where if they are sick or being an insensitive moron, ex-l will tell them.

You should be glad I am not expressing myself. I am far more free and colorful with my descriptions in real life.

Pretty much anyone can post where and when they want. I don't control anyone. No one does what I say. This ain't the BKWSU and I ain't a center-in-charge. The only restrictions we have are relating to BKs and PBKs who are required to serve or contribute something to what we are doing ... e.g. supply Murlis and other materials for us to re-distribute.

Once it is clear that an individual has no desire to exit Brahma Kumarism, they have to give something back for what they are taking. We don't accept advertising on this website.
2. While it is down to you to post what you like, it may help if you reduce the length of posts for readers to get the message more productively.

Do poor BKs lack the ability to concentrate and follow more complex arguments? Do they need more meditation or less meditation to achieve a better grasp?
3. Clearly define what this forum wants to achieve ...

This forum is many different things to many people. It is defined by who ever happens to turn up at the time, and what they are interested in. We're not a cult. We don't have a leadership or an agenda. We offer our resources freely. It changes according to the season.
4. Respect Anonymity

My main objection to that is that the Brahma Kumaris (BKWSU and BKWSO) did not respect my and others anonymity, so why should we respect theirs?

Indeed, they (Hansa Raval, Simon Blandford and others) conspired to out and expose me in order to sue me personally for comments I did not make. Why should I offer it to them?

Honest question requiring an answer. They've never apologised for it. BKs don't.

Having exposed certain individuals, the BK have since gone on to develop extensive personal attacks based mostly completely invented falsehoods. There is even a team of BKs following the forum and reporting back looking for god knows what. Most individuals on this forum are protected by the anonymity we offer them, however, there have been cases where the BKs have speculated who they are and then pressurised them and their families as a "Chilling Effect" to silence them.

Imagine Hansa Raval running along the road, trying to hold her sari together, as her BK husband finally drove away from the center with only a minimum of belongings leaving the rest, or ask why she failed to register their divorce papers?

They act in secret, we act on "the world stage".

Generally, we would respect the privacy of sincere 'private individuals', but where a BK promotes themselves as a 'public figure' and personally benefits from the system (e.g. makes money or achieves status), or plays an intrinsic part in the BKWSU legal and publicity machinery, then different laws apply as there is a clear 'public interest' to such discussion.

This is only a discussion. We need to be able discuss in order to come to conclusions.

Recently, we discussed BK Simon Blandford's marriage to another BK as someone reported that it was for the sake of visa rather than love, sex and building a family. Regardless of any contradiction to the Maryadas and Shrimat, which are the BKs' business, that would be an abuse of the legal system and not unique amongst BKs.

Does and should the BKs promote unlawful acts and protect those that carry them out or should they investigate and report them? Simon took a personal stand acting in support of another Brahma Kumari leader's personal interest ... should not his own, and others like him, personal morality come into question?

Miriam Subirana's personal bad conduct and Brian Bacon's business benefits with BKs and the BKWSU would be another example as they are in contradiction of what the BKs say they are about and demand of lower ranking BKs.

We should be bound by the law but not worried about the BKWSU's reputation. If a BK leader is utterly hypocritical or abusive, then it is a matter or public interest and service to speak out about it.
5. Refrain from publishing personal information of individuals involved in BKs - If you are fighting against an organization that's fine and focus should be on issues not people - please consider the harm it can do to those individuals involved particularly those who are not the leaders.

There is no such thing as an organization, there are only individuals. Especially when it comes to the BKs where the organizations are generally just artificial and temporary fronts.

Why would we chase charades? Don't chase the charades, chase those that are projecting them.


If the individuals who carry out the actions wish to avoid analysis and criticism, or avoid being discussed, then all they have to do is leave the BKWSU, or remove those individual or organizational defects from the BKWSU.

We're doing the BKWSU a service offering them honest feedback about their effect on others and society.

moreclearnow

Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

On the first point, I was highlighting not the fact why you should not be posting. It was in reference to my experience on this web-site where a direct dialog between 2 people is difficult especially if they are of opposing view points - sometimes these direct dialogs are broken because of your interefence. This is not a new observation; I had raised this few days ago and also as clearernow before, that you dominate this forum too much. Give out information as much as possible but let 2 way dialogs without the intrusion of ex-l happpen as well I think. Its upto you if you decide to continue the way it is - I am just sharing my own viewpoint.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post30 Jun 2013

It's a discussion with more than two people in the room. If you want people's respect, which might translate into being quiet and listening to you, then you have to earn it by what you say.

Never mind sharing your viewpoints for a moment, moreclearnow ... with your next post please just answer those questions above.

The reason I am opposing you is because you are avoiding them.

Minesh

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post01 Jul 2013

Oliver

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post02 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:Adding to Criticisms (rather suggestions to improve):

5. Refrain from publishing personal information of individuals involved in BKs - If you are fighting against an organization that's fine and focus should be on issues not people - please consider the harm it can do to those individuals involved particularly those who are not the leaders.

I have read with keen interest, and I have to add my contribution towards this. moreclearnow asks us to consider the harm posting personal information does to the individuals.

I have to challenge this, as I know of a very senior BK, who has done some very negative behaviour that totally go against BK life. So what you're saying, moreclearnow, doesn't make sense.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

People need to be protect from such individuals and so they have to be named, and that behaviour documented. If the BKs cannot police themselves, then someone has to. Likewise, if the BK elite are allowing one bunch of BKs to marry or do business together, then someone should ask why every BK cannot and why they are not told ... "Open season! Grab a good looking Kumari and get into business with the best Brother!".

If you have been abused by someone then it is better so speak out to warn others so that others are not abused as well. I would say it was part of your therapy, part of throwing off your victimhood. Accuse your abuser and we will sand by you and defend you from them as best we can.

I know all too well how much the BKs will interfere with individuals' and family's lives. Not all BKs do. There are things they do they hide even from other BKs.

moreclearnow

Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Oliver wrote:I have read with keen interest, and I have to add my contribution towards this. moreclearnow asks us to consider the harm posting personal information does to the individuals.

I have to challenge this, as I know of a very senior BK, who has done some very negative behaviour that totally go against BK life. So what you're saying, moreclearnow, doesn't make sense.

Hello Oliver, I feel sorry for your experiences and hope you have moved on for better things in life.

I agree if the harm has been done by that individual, people typically have a tendency to bite back. I personally don't encourage harming individuals which are not in the leadership - as people here are then just replicating their behaviour so they are no different and will not be seen as more credible. Now, the general argument on this forum is that leadership is deceiving; going by that, other individuals who act under the shadows of leadership are in the same boat as we were few years ago .. What will we achieve harming those?

There are much better ways to raise issues in public without revealing personal information. And if one has to accuse individuals like this, then why self hide under anonymity?

And the main point is that if someone has problems with a specific BK, that doesn't mean that answer lies in trying to harm others who are labelled BK and related to them. Is this right?
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