Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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kmanaveen

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Moreclear, you better answer questions raised by ex-l to you and make things more clear to us.

moreclearnow

BK supporter

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

If you meant the questions about God and 5000 years, I have already answered it several times in the past.

I firmly believe in the BKs' teachings about God as an incorporeal point of light/ pure energy, ocean of all virtues ;love, peace and joy..a supreme being with whom we can experience all relationships...The connection I experienced through Raja Yoga was the biggest gift from BKism and it still is the same experience after so many years...

I don't believe in Brahma Baba as God and I have never had any visions or experiences directly related to Brahma Baba or any spirits.

5000 years had never mattered to me as it has no impact on the spiritual journey of self realization, transformation and connecting with divine. Therefore while it may be important to others, personally I never saw a point in debating about this

When I studied the philosophy, I accepted the time to be cyclic as it made sense to me..my beliefs were based on experiences not theory like 5000 years, no of births etc..they play no role in meditation experiences or the present journey
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Thank you kmanaveen and thank you MCN. So you believe the god of the BKs and God are one and the same thing ... so is he wrong about the 5,000 years?

I think you are sort of avoiding the issue here, MCN, which is why I am picking you up on it. I asked you how you mentally negotiated believing that the god of the BKs and God are one but not believing in the 5,000 Years ... which would seem to be deny the most defining aspect of Brahma Kumarism. For example, can God really be ignorant or wrong?

I would say the most defining aspect of being an ex-BK is the denial of or reject that the god of the BKs could possibly be God. You joined as an ex-BK but if you still believe, then I think you are not. You may have stopped going to the center every day but if you believe, you are still in. You're just a bad, lazy or disobedient BK ... Is this fair to say?
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Relating to discussing specific individual and the question of anonymity ... all this is is a discussion forum. It's out meeting place ... our pub or cafe ... our living room where we get together and chat. And that is all we are doing.

Do the BKs not get together and chat about specific individuals? Of course they do. They do on several levels ... across their unofficial international gossip vines and, officially, in specific service meetings.

We know the BKWSU study this site, speculate who is who and, if and when they think they have identified someone, they have targeted them or their family members and spread false rumours about them. They do so to discredit the actual fact. Likewise their use of legal violence against us to remove our right to privacy and deliberately expose individuals in order to attack them further.

Why do they do so? Simple, the level of consciousness most BKs are at is fairly low. They are still just ordinary human beings and for ordinary human chit chat and gossip is far more easy to digest and enjoyable than dealing with big ethical issues, especially those that might challenge their faith or leadership's credibility. Or even god. It's notable that for 75 years of its existence, the so called Spiritual University has been pretty much devoid of ethics and the discussion and application of ethics.

Again, you reduce raising ethical issues about specific individuals to "biting back". That is a defence a trickster might use.

Done in the right frame of mind, discussing specific individuals' conduct within the context of their religion is absolutely reasonable. Especially where it might protect others (public interest), or bring about change in those individuals' behaviour.

If an individual is seen to be promoting Brahma Kumarism but contradicting its principles and even enjoying a high status or privilege within the cult, then they are at least first class hypocrite and, at worst, mentally ill or harmful to *both* the cult and others.

An abstract discussion cannot achieve anything.

In the old days, the BKs used to have a "Court of Indra" where such issues or faults used to be raised. They need a modern equivalent, e.g. an internal court system or ombudsperson, where problems can be formally raised and recorded, and judgements and if necessary punishments and compensations handed out.

At the end of the day, you are a BK supporter which equates to a BK defender. Your own conduct or respect towards polite requests for information is in question. Therefore your intentions are suspect.

Someone has raised the issue of transparency/anonymity in another thread and so I will answer it there.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:... people here are then just replicating their behaviour so they are no different ...

No, I am sorry. We are not running a cult that sucks in and spends millions of dollars and 100s of young girls per year.

No one there is cover up for, or collaborating in such a cult. There is no comparison. We are speaking up for victims, they are victimising. If there is a problem to be addressed first, it is to stop their victimisation.

Once the BKs stop victimising people ... we no longer have a reason to exist, so stop them.

moreclearnow

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

ex-l wrote:I would say the most defining aspect of being an ex-BK is the denial of or reject that the god of the BKs could possibly be God


I don't think so ex-l. Its not necessary that all ex-BKs have given up the experience or the understanding of God as explained above. Many leave because of issues with the people involved in the organization not necessarily the experience of connection with God. It is possible that they wholly reject the notion of God, or believe in some other form of God. But giving up the same notion of God and connecting through Raja Yoga meditation to that source is not necessary!

And when I say I am more clear, I am even willing to research, experiment and practice an alternative ...but haven't found a better definition and experience of God yet... The day someone offers me a better alternative to this, I am happy to explore..
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

I am sorry ... you are confusing me again. Are you talking about God or the god of the BKs? Please be specific.

Now, again, I have to remind you that you have not answered my question regarding the 5,000 years. You said you don't believe in it, so is your god (the god of the BKs) wrong?

How or why could or would "God" be wrong? Would "God" use wrong or false concepts?

We can discuss the meaning of an ex-BK in another topic. I am tempted to start one called, "Criticisms of BKs who come on this forum" if you don't just answer the question.

moreclearnow

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Well, I don't know how else I can answer it ex-l. I have already said that I accepted the definition of God as explained above. May be for you God is different outside the BKs for me it is not.

And I don't know what to say about 5,000 years as it is not a question of belief or disbelief. It never mattered to me so I never looked into this at all. So probably I accepted it as all the other things were more important and fitted in nicely. If that way you don't want to classify me as the top notch BK background then fine, I am anyway happy with a lower status :-).
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Lower status? Oh, that's for sure ... (according to the BKs!!!). We're mostly all future cremators here, apparently. :-? You might find the odd Golden Aged garbage men ... but then they say there's not going to be a lot of garbage in the Golden Age ... they'll arrive in the Copper and Iron Age.

You're right, 5,000 years as is not a "question of belief or disbelief" to the BKWSU ... it is a statement of fact. An absolute, unquestionable truth devoid of logic or reason. I cannot remember if the question used to be on their "statement of faith" that one was required to sign but it's kind of hard to ignore as a defining factor of the god's wisdom.

So, what's your opinion now as an educated person?

Can all of time be only 5,000 years old, or might there be some truth to more scientific explanations and timeframes?

Please, no more slippery answers.

You're god is watching and testing your faith in his wisdom through me.

I wonder where you fit in within the BK theory ... a few lives at the end of the Silver Age? Perhaps you can still make it into the Golden Age if you have not had an orgasm since you stopped going to morning class, but definitely as one of the lower classes.

Of course, if you have given them money since, they might tell you will get a big house. :D (Note to teaders ... yes, those really all are traditional Brahma Kumari beliefs)

moreclearnow

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post03 Jul 2013

Well, 5000 years is a possibility. I don't rule it out even if I sound stupid to you. But that doesn't mean there is a beginning and end to time. It's a cycle after all. Out of all the BK beliefs, this is the least significant and least impacting for a spiritual path, so I don't know why you say this is the main BKism. You tell me that even if this were to be 10,000 years, what difference would it make for a spiritual aspirant?

I have seen a lot of debate about it in the forum elsewhere and always ignored it because, personally, I haven't applied science to prove any spiritual experiences and nor have the interest to mix the two. The day science can create peace, love and joy in human minds, I may get the interest to research this more.

And, BTW, on the lower status, I am focussed only on my present and how to improve it. I am sure if I am successful in improving my present, future will be nice as well. And, in the Iron Age, if I have got so much from the company of God then, even by BK logic, if I were to be back in Copper Age after a good peaceful holiday in Soul World; it would be better than what it is in Iron Age, so perfectly fine :-).

Lastly, I really liked your suggestion of the internal court or Ombudsperson. This could be a good reform in BKWSU.
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

I'll allow others to respond regarding their thoughts on whether the 5,000 year Cycle is or is not core to Brahma Kumarism (?!? :shock: ). Is that what is coming next ... are the BKs going to drop it? I see the specific details have already been taken off posters in the West but I thought that was just for show ... and to not frighten off newcomers.
    Did you ever teach the 7 Day Course? (You said you went to morning class for, what, 5 years?)
I think there would be a big problem if the god of the BKs were now to turn around and say, "Hey guys, I made another mistake. It's not 5,000 years after all ... It's 10,000 years!" How long would Confluence Age be then ... and why did "God" keep saying 5,000 until now? Why was it so important to him?

Personally, I think you are giving the kind of vague responses BKs give to non-BKs that might not know better.

It would probably be better to write "my god" or "the BKs' god" on this forum, so as not to confuse.

ex.brahma

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:Well, 5000 years is a possibility. I don't rule it out even if I sound stupid to you. But that doesn't mean there is a beginning and end to time. It's a cycle after all.

There is a very intresting and scientefically based post in this forum called "Why I can not believe in the 5000 years cycle".

It is a bit long, but if you read it fully, with open mind, without preconceived ideas and thoughts, I am sure you will come to the conclusion that this 5000 years cycle is nothing but ... another BK myth ...!!

kmanaveen

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

When someone asked God why he doesn't go and help these poor guys, the BKs and get them some real knowledge and compassion. He thought for a while and said, "hmm, well, they will listen to me only if I make 7 Days Course and I doubt if I will be able to give anyone anything after that ... so I am sorry, Drama!".
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ex-l

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

"You can become a teacher in one lesson", they used to say. Like that 'spirits in a physical body' is a new idea.

MCN, don't take this combatively from my side. I am just interested how someone could remain a BK for so long and neither accept nor question the significance of it. In truth, I don't quite believe you are being absolutely candid.

Equally, I am interested how someone could believe in the BK god but not believe in his cosmology, or believe he had it wrong. Would that not make the individual superior to their god? I think there is a tendency for BKs to condescend to Lekhraj Kirpalani and blame a lot on him which is strange too when they think he is also perfected.

I can understand how someone might want to keep on a friendly basis with BKs if it means they can go and use their centers and retreats for free etc. I can understand how a "contact soul" who does not know the real teachings can think highly of the BK facade. But I don't understand who someone who knows fine 5,000 years cycles and Destruction are core to the BK teachings and the intentions of the leaders accepting their god but not his teachings.

Unless one just accepts the teachings are a kind of mental trap to control a lower order of follower, that can be changed at any time, in order to life off them.

warrior

working towards unification

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

ex-l wrote:How or why could or would "God" be wrong? Would "God" use wrong or false concepts?

Ya, amazing how till date BKs haven't achieved God, more here: http://www.truthaboutbrahmakumaris.com/

moreclearnow

BK supporter

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Re: Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info

Post04 Jul 2013

ex-l wrote: I think there is a tendency for BKs to condescend to Lekhraj Kirpalani and blame a lot on him which is strange too when they think he is also perfected.

That is right and when I was deeply involved, I was always keen to understand the difference in words of Sakar (Imperfect Brahma) vs Avyakt (Perfect stage) - a lot in Sakar was reflecting Brahma Baba's own understanding, his Bhakti background, his wordly knowledge and his interpretation of knowledge which was not perfect.
MCN, don't take this combatively from my side. I am just interested how someone could remain a BK for so long and neither accept nor question the significance of it. In truth, I don't quite believe you are being absolutely candid.

It's not that I did not accept it - I did accept it but since it never mattered to me much, I did not question the significance of it. I was always prioritizing what I can personally experiment and experience rather than what others (scientists or historians) make be believe;

Ex-brahma, I have had a look at the debate of 5000 years few times in the past but all of this is just too tedious and boring to me. Now I realize why I hated the subject of history in my school days! It just doesn't interest me to find out when the world started as past is not relevant for my present or future spiritual journey.
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