Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumarism

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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moreclearnow

Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumarism

Post19 Jun 2013

ex-l wrote:India is India and Hinduism is Hinduism and money corruption are part of the system ... but it is fair to say the temples do have a long tradition of using donations to do some social good rather than just build properties and promote themselves to VIPs like the BKs.

I still cannot understand why, if Destruction was in two to three years, they are building such huge and luxurious complexes and buying freehold properties. It strikes me they don't believe what they teach.

'End of the World -ism' (millenarianism) is a wonderful tool of mental coercion and the BKs have learned from direct experience it is a good way to get money. Remember in 2000, Didi Manmohini was actually telling people to take money out of the bank ... where do you think it went? The same place as it did in 1976 ...
They don't because in a normal family it is just 'family versus family'. In a BK related problem, it is 'family versus BKs plus family' with the BKs giving advice and interfering from behind and filling the family member's head full of stuff about Golden Ages etc which distorts their decision making processes and alters their behaviour.

We've even had cases where BKs encourage and advice BK women how to divorce husbands and take property from them to give to the BKs. There's is both official and unofficial BK influence; Shrimat from Seniors and gossip level from adherents.

Of course, I have long made the obvious conclusion that when millionaire Lekhraj Kirpalani's money ran out, and they could not longer steal from their families and get grants from the government etc, they turned their cult to religion because they knew it was a huge source of income.

How else were the untrained, uneducated women going to survive?

Anyone handing over money and property to the BKWSU under the irrational belief that it is going to buy them a high status in Heaven, or Palace of God has been deeply and persistently coerced. They even say stuff like, Om Radhe had to come back in another life to do "service via money" because she brought none with her the first time around.

For every unqualified suggestion you make, we can give you numerous specific example of when, e.g. Janki Kirpalani rattled the class for donations because the mortgage needed paid and donations were low, or another senior lectured a class telling them to support their local center more etc.

Oh ho, ex-l you have simply no idea of the level of corruption in India in religious institues and temples - and the amount of property and gold they have. These are not rational arguments and just show a deep prejudice to use every argument possible against BKs.

As per a BBC report, in one of the temples it was claimed to have in their vault something like 450 golden pots, 2,000 rubies and jewel-studded crowns, 400 gold chairs and the statue of a deity studded with 1,000 diamonds. Apparently, all this amounted to some $20bn - more than India's annual education budget. Tons of Gold lie in Indian temples treasure vaults gathering dust and usually discovered after centuries. There are claims that if this Gold was to come out in the open market, it would crash the Gold prices globally and it can ofcourse remove majority of poverty in India or help improve education. You have to see it in your eyes and not difficult to spot this if you go to any of the holy cities for example in North of India. You have temples on every street and if you have money you are a VIP who can get to see the idol jumping all the queues. There are even temples that charge fees depending on how long you are allowed to see the idol, which is an innovative business model. There, opening temples is a business and if you need to own a property, build a temple on a Govt land and slowly cover the whole area surrounding it ... because of the religious sentiments, often these are disputed /illegal but Govt can not remove it easily and there are thousands of such sites

Large temples often run like corporates like the example I shared above from Tirupati. They sell, they export, they make profits and divert a tiny fraction of the profits to trusts running hospitals or other forms of social services (which is what corporates do as part of CSR) to avoid questioning and controversies about the money and property they own. It's not that all temples do it, there are places which do proper form of social services and free from money making business but that's unfortunately a minority these days.
Sure, that's what the BKWSU says. I know of cases where poor villagers were encouraged to donate their jewellery to buy/make some offering to the Seniors higher up

I know of a very poor BK who did not have anything to donate and couldn't even afford to pay for his train fare to Madhuban. The Sister in-charge paid for his travel to Madhuban through the centre.
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pawan_kr

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Re: Angry or aggressive responses from BKs

Post19 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:Succesful BK implementation is when you can bring harmony in relationships and don't display aggressive/angry behaviour as seems to be the case with this particular BK in question.

Succesful BK implementation is - when a BK fights with his family members to donate family property to Greedy Brahmakumaris and display aggressive behavior for making his PURUSHARTH. This is the real success for BK Dadis.
I haven't said Tirupati trust doesn't do good work and I have full respect for the work they are doing. But not for the commercialization of selling laddoos and human hairs.

See ... who is talking :D

Brahmakumaris are registered as company. Is this not commercial ??????

Brahamkumaris sell stationary items like pens, diaries, calanders. They also sell bags and shawls. How is this promoting spirituality ?????

Now a days local centre-in-charge Sisters are charging Rs- 1000/- per head excluding traveling fares as fee for lodging and food for Abu Road visits, so free holiday vacation are only for VIPs.
Good social services but by using that argument are you promoting and justifying the following? Devotees donate their hair to God and they export them to US and Europe for wigs and make money out of it?

They must be exporting hair and earning money but at least they are using it for social welfare which you have just respected for ... NOT like Brahmakumaris which spend their maximum donation on building luxurious resorts. They have granted huge acres of land by different state Govt. But what they did ???? Made big big gardens to satisfy their luxurious lust.
You surely know that Vijay Mallaya, prominent business man in India alone donated 3 Kg Gold to the temple last year at the same time when he was not able to pay salaries in one of his failed businesses and employees were struggling to make ends meet for many months.

I surely know Mr. Mallaya, but if he has donated 3kg gold what is bothering you ?? That he did not donated it to Brahmakumaris ... :shock: or that inspite of paying salaries he donated so much to a temple. If this bothers you then you must realize how a person is feeling when his Father is fighting with him to donate a huge amount to Brahmakumaris, the money he earned and is for the future of his family.

If Brahmakumaris are honest in saying that they do not provoke their followers for donating gifts or money, they should ask their followers to bring NOC from the members as every member of family has legal rights over the property. They are doing this in case when some one wants to join BK.
Yes, I agree with you about majority of BKs knowledge being inherent in core of Hinduism particularly Gita. I personally admire The Knowledge in the Bhagvad Gita.

TRUTH REMAINS TRUTH, EVEN YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE .... :D
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ex-l

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Re: Corrupting in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumar

Post19 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:These are not rational arguments and just show a deep prejudice to use every argument possible against BKs.

Of course their rational. Lekhraj Kirpalani was a successful, self-made millionaire business in the jewellery business. Do you think he did *not* know of the wealth of temples ... he probably made some of the jewellery donated to them and bought and sold stuff from them. Everyone in India know of the wealth of some temples and the Hindus and the BKs give for the same reason. Some kind of magical reward in the future. What a great, unprovable, con.

Soon after Destruction failed in 1950, and all the BKs' money ran out and donations from families dried up, how was Lekhraj Kirpalani going to feed between 70 and 250 weak, pampered, unskilled and uneducated women? (Figures vary for the number of BKs at the end of the beggary period).

Now, bear in mind that at this time there was no God Shiva in the Brahma Kumari religion and so "God" could not tell them to go out and start service ... only Lekhraj Kirpalani could.

The conclusion is obvious. Lekhraj Kirpalani knew how much money there was to be made in Hinduism and my tapping a tiny percentage of it, he could feed his women and run his personality cult. Therefore he sent them home and to acquaintances where they would be fed (not costing him any more) and to start a Hindu business-religion like those you mention.

(One interesting question to ask there is, Lekhraj Kirpalani had a wealthy, non-BK, female admirer who supported him financially up in Mount Abu. I wonder if her donations stopped when Destruction failed, or whether she just died, gave up. We don't hear of her in the official BK history. )

As for wealth and corruption in Hinduism, actually I do have some idea. I am reasonably well informed, and I also know some of the real work they carry out. However, just because some Hindus temples are ludicrously rich, corrupt and inefficient does not excuse the Brahma Kumaris from being so too. The BKs sell themselves on being supremely better ... chalk and cheese ... night and day better.

Is it ethical for them to tap into the ignorance and superstitions of poor, ordinary Indian people ... or are they not just living like parasites off the Hindu tendency to give donations?

Why don't you BKs start a campaign against Hindu temples to use all their wealth for good before Destruction comes? Or is that where you believe all the gold and jewellery for the Golden Age will come from?
I know of a very poor BK who did not have anything to donate and couldn't even afford to pay for his train fare to Madhuban. The Sister in-charge paid for his travel to Madhuban through the centre.

How much unpaid work did he do for the centre for free for how long?

I am sorry but these unsupported "I know someone ..." types of arguments are not convincing without any other evidence. For all we know, he or his family put twice as much in the donations box before and after and worked 40 hours a week for them. The BKs certainly do *not* extend such offers to all poor BKs. Indeed, arguably, the center-in-charge was acting against Shrimat by doing so.

As a BK supporter, the onus is on you to prove us. Start by providing us some hard facts so we can discuss the issue.
    • What is the total annual income of the Brahma Kumaris?
    • How much are the cash reserves and investments of the BKWSU?
    • What is the value of their property portfolio?
    • What is the value of the gold, jewellery and other non-financial assets they hold in their vaults (yes, they have some ... and including that first Rolls Royce we showed)?
    • Estimate what percentage of it is accounted for legitimately and how big is the black economy within the BK movement?
If you ask the BKWSU leaders for these figures and they will not tell you, please tell us *why* they will not tell you.

If we are going to value whatever little real charity and kindness they perform, we have to start by having an overall view to work out the scale of them.

moreclearnow

Re: Angry or aggressive responses from BKs

Post19 Jun 2013

pawan_kr wrote:If Brahmakumaris are honest in saying that they do not provoke their followers for donating gifts or money, they should ask their followers to bring NOC from the members as every member of family has legal rights over the property. They are doing this in case when some one wants to join BK.

Thats not a bad idea when it comes to legal rights of a property. But my question is that if someone has legal rights on the property, then how can other family member take it away without their written consent? And in such cases, what stops the family members having legal rights on a property take a legal action againts BKWSU?
ex-l wrote: As a BK supporter, the onus is on you to prove us. Start by providing us some hard facts so we can discuss the issue.

• What is the total annual income of the Brahma Kumaris?
• How much are the cash reserves and investments of the BKWSU?
• What is the value of their property portfolio?
• What is the value of the gold, jewellery and other non-financial assets they hold in their vaults (yes, they have some ... and including that first Rolls Royce we showed)?
• Estimate what percentage of it is accounted for legitimately and how big is the black economy within the BK movement?

Like you, I have no connection now with the Seniors to be able to get this. Unlike the donations made in temples, whatever people contribute to BKWSU, it's clear where the money one is giving is spent. If people are not satisfied with the way their donations are spent, they should stop contributing. If you are so curious to know this, you are free to file an RTI in India with income tax department which is very effective in public disclosures from organizations answerable to public. From what I know, Income tax department audits all the accounts of BKWSU annually and all centres are required to keep accounts which are consolidated and reviewed annually in their accounts meetings in summer. I remember BK Ramesh who is in-charge of this telling some centre-in-charges in these meetings that if you can not keep these accounts in order you can not be authorized to run a centre and these excercises were taken very seriously because of the audit requirements of Income tax dept.
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ex-l

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Re: Angry or aggressive responses from BKs

Post19 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:I have no connection now with the Seniors to be able to get this. Unlike the donations made in temples, whatever people contribute to BKWSU, it's clear where the money one is giving is spent.

Really? Can you show me where it is made public?
If you are so curious to know this, you are free to file an RTI in India with income tax department which is very effective in public disclosures from organizations answerable to public.

Interesting, I read that the Indian RTI (RIght to Information) law now does apply to charities, at least in some states.

But why should I have to apply to every state in India (which I probably cannot because I am not Indian) ... and how would I identify all the 100s of different trusts and companies the BKs run ... when all it would take is a single letter to the BKWSU to ask them?

You don't see to understand. As a demi-BK or a BK supporter if you want to 'play' here, you have to 'pay' here too ... by providing some kind of practical benefit, e.g. we ask for original copies of the Murlis or other such solid information such as this. You have to give something.

So you do it. I suppose you could start with Mount Abu. The person to contact is Ramesh.

The reason I think you wold not do it is you know you would not get an answer. But please prove me wrong ... otherwise, you defences are all a waste of time.
Charitable institutions to come under RTI scanner, May 10 2011

From now on, charitable institutions will come under the purview of the Right To Information (RTI) Act — following a decision taken by the the State Information Commission of Punjab in this connection. Now, all such information will have to be provided within 15 days of one moves an RTI application.

The decision comes after a year of struggle by RTI activists Ajit Singh and Harmanjit Singh under the banner of RTI activists Federation.
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pawan_kr

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Re: Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumar

Post20 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:But my question is that if someone has legal rights on the property, then how can other family member take it away without their written consent? And in such cases, what stops the family members having legal rights on a property take a legal action againts BKWSU?

This is where the followers of BK show their anger and aggression. They behave like a psycho and the members feel ashamed to bring this fight in public, so members have no choice. The common people are ATTACHED to their family members and they do care of each other, so when one member is a BK and he is fighting to donate some property, the other members fulfil his wish just for the sake of peace in the family.

But if the money is huge then people do approach courts for legal justice. One famous case is of RAHEJA BUIDERS OF MUMBAI.

I also remember a girl climbing on a mobile tower and she threatened to jump from there if her parents did not allow her to join Brahmakumaris. Parents are ATTACHED to their children so they have no choice left and THIS IS HOW BRAHMAKUMARIS TAKE ADVANTAGE ...

Oliver

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Re: Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumar

Post20 Jun 2013

Ha, interesting BKs' anger and aggression happens when they don't achieve their objectives.

littleo

Re: Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumar

Post24 Jun 2013

BKs abroad can be also seen as traditional Indian nationalism. Some indians could follow that, because it unites them in nostalgia, so they would mix that with various Indian traditions.

BK knowledge, being Westernized, can be also seen as corrupting it. I think the clash is not between east and West, but between what is good and traditional to what is bad and traditional, and what is new and traditional to what is new and bad.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Corruption in Hinduism versus Corruption in Brahma Kumar

Post25 Jun 2013

littleo wrote:BKs abroad can be also seen as traditional Indian nationalism. Some indians could follow that, because it unites them in nostalgia, so they would mix that with various Indian traditions.

Since WW2 many countries experienced big migrations. As previously war-torn countries were rebuilt and modernised, became affluent, better educated and more secular, it was, generally speaking, a larger proportion of the migrants who'd gone to other lands who kept closer to the old ways and practices.

For many Indian migrants, the BKs are a visible link back to India, and often, even for them, their first real look into a personal spiritual path that uses names and symbols they were vaguely familiar with but few would have studied to any depth.

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