The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Misty

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The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post15 Feb 2014

Misty

  • Posts: 88
  • Joined: 23 Jan 2013

Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post15 Feb 2014

The above is an old letter from july 1942. I think ex-l referred to this one.
ex-l wrote:My favorite is the one to the 'military leaders of the world' actually encouraging them to enact marshal law and scorched earth tactics
in another thread :http://www.brahmakumaris.info/forum//viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3179

Almost needless to say that the central doctrine hasn't been abandonned over the years but it has been refined though, according to my view, and filled in with new political faces; and this process (probably) keeps going on. (Below is the Destruction version I heard about in 1992. I think it is just another version of the tale central to the BK-doctrine).

Updating

According to the teacher I met at the BK in the 1990-1992 period, the BK was not able to build an army themselves. It would take too much affluency and also it would detect too much attention, and could not be done unnoticed by the world. However, she proclaimed that the BKWSO would overtake the reigns of the United Nations Army, as guided by the Security Council (UNSC).

The teacher, however, on another occasion, told me that the army the United Nations mounts for (any) peace operation was in fact their army. She told me that the BKWSO at a later instance would take complete control over the United Nations Army, ie. actually take over the reigns of it. Then, when it was firmly assured of the grip upon this United Nations branch, they would launch their own destructive war (*) as prophesied by the BK-god spirit.

Mr. W Bush (jr) was to play the role of Kalkin (**) in his next incarnation, initiating Destruction (***) and Mr. Lekraj would not reincarnate before the (beginning of the) Golden Age was well established.
    (*) According to what the teacher told me at the time, there are three events that will take place prior to the destructive cataclismic war. The first event will be the buiding of the Golden Age palaces in the present time by the donations of the adherents. The second event would be that the armed branch of the UN will be taken over by the BKWSO. Directly after that event, the BKWSO will take over the reigns of the government of India, (almost) simultaneously to the crowning of Krishna and Radha. When these three events are deeply anchored then the BKWSO will lauch the Armageddon.

    (**) The tenth avatar of Vishnu in Hinduism (and plays a role in Buddhism as well).

    (***) They told me Mr. Bush (jr) was far too much affected at Sanskara-level not to turn to the BKWSO and not to act this way.
I asked the teacher how the peace loving BK adherents would, for instance enter a tank vehicle. That is not at all "Om Shanti". She, however, replied that nevertheless some adherents would do this, not too much but just a few to ensure influence and control at the battlefield. And then mainly the lower status BKs. But BKs would above all concentrate on the higher positions of the UN Army, what would mean the central command.

She added that they had to wait until the decisive power was given to the BKWSO at first hand and would be firmly in their tightening grip, before they could send in their own BK-minded generals to take over the central command. She affirmed that those generals would surely stand up in due time.

Image

I told the teacher that the army the UNSC mounts to peace operations is not an army consituted and run by one country that can be taken-over easily but that shifting member-countries would contribute to a specific peace task. To her, that would not influence the outcome of the process.

Another thing is that at present, at least as far as I know, the UNSC does not carry with them weaponery of mass destruction as it is by no way required for peace keeping and surveillance operations. And I doubt if they ever will.

Two Camps

According to the BK-view, the Armageddon war will either be inspired by the BKWSO or directly caused by them. In 1992 the opinions differed how it would exactly take place. One version discussed was that the United Nations was embraced as a mediator between two parties that would have a conflict. Being run secretly (at first) and more overtly (later on) by the BKWSO, this UN Armed-Party would either manage the conflict in a way that would make an escalation and subsequent catharsis unavoidable. Or they would inspire both parties this way.

Another version was that, after having taken the central command and being assured of full control, the BK-restyled UN Army would launch a simultaneous attack on both parties covering it up, blaming both parties and then let the subsequent conflict escalate into an all destructive war. As said, this issue was blurred and not clear when they (the adherents at the BK meeting) spoke about it.

The two party's involved will be America and Russia ... as they told me.

As I heard this, I was very surprised. It was 1990 and the Berlin wall had just fallen. The Cold War, after having frozen for decades the relations between the two camps, was finally and literally over. America and Russia were becoming friends at rapid rate.



I also told them these facts. Told them that I hardly could image that these two countries would become sworn enemies again. I painted the image of friendship.(I think for them their version of the story was largely an effort to paint the BK-picture of Destruction with realistic colours to make it more agreeable for adherents). The teacher however said that this growing friendship between the two giants was true at that very moment but that the relations between the two countries would worsen and cool down later in time, leading to an unavoidable, all destructive outcome.

Yet, I pick on this because the BK seems to have had a continuing, on going threat blackened out at adherents about an imminent, unavoidable Destruction. It is central to their philosophy. It is the thriving of fear that they exploit for making adherents into servable brainwashed individuals.

Golden Age Palaces

According to the teacher the building of the Golden Age palaces was another sign of the imminent victory of the BK, a sign of their growing strength. She told me that, as Confluence Age continued, the BKs would acquire more affluence. It would be invested in the buying of large estates.

This process would continue. But gradually the organisation would accumulate so much wealth that they would start decorating the large estates with gold and diamonds. That would also be the time that, progressively, larger groups of people would get interested in those palaces. Even tourists would visit them.

At first, when the palaces were not decorated, hardly anyone would pay attention to the phenomenon. But as soon as the palaces were well decorated, interested people would start to visit and this would generate new income and new adherents, according to her but not too much.

As the world would get more and more disorganised and chaotic, the organisation would radiate so much solidity and although poverty was increasing worldwide, their fortune would still grow (thanks to the adherents !!) This would be the sign of (the BK)-God presence on earth. This would also be the time that the regency of the Indian government would be handed over to the BK.

Yet I wonder if a few decorated mansions will make people act that way. I don't think it is going to work for them, if it ever gets that far.

The next step would be the crowning of Narayan and Lakshmi. As they were installed everyone (worldwide, yes !!) would be very happy. People would be unaware of the coming misfortune. The rulers and the BK would then make their final turn in their endless twisting and turning and create their Armageddon.

I reminded her of the fact that, according to the doctrine, the world would go up in flames. I asked her what would be the profit of building dream palaces if everything would be destroyed and had to be build anew in the Golden Age. The teacher then gave me a quite astonishing and hilarious answer, namely that everything would be destroyed but those palaces ... She said those palaces would be protected by divine power.



United Nations Army

The teacher also told me that the UNSC was leading the BK (future) army and that it was wearing their colours of white and blue, ascribing the white to the predominant colour of white among the BK and referring to the white clothes the adherents wore. The blue of the military's helmets in her vision, reflected the colour of the blue sky, referring to the meditating, as in meditation the BK-adherents supposedly mount (or descend, depending how you look at it) to the sky. There is even a BK poster about this philosophy, showing how souls are in the Soul World while their bodies are upon earth and the two being connected by a thin thread. They showed me the depicting poster at the time to underline their point of view.

However, as they told me this, I was not so much impressed. I had seen that poster before. I replied that, according to me, the white colour of the UN vehicles and armature indicated the neutrality of the army, as white is the international colour to surrender and a white flag at a battlefield means to cease fire. It is a symbol of negotiation and peace, even accepted by the convention of Geneva. Blue in my view, related to the colour of the UN flag (with the symbol of the United Nations). I did not deny that it was related to the colour of a blue sky but dismissed the fact that it had to do anything with their specific BK-meditation

The teacher then questioned this and said she thought the blue colour wasn't linked to the United Nations but referred directly to the BK-meditation. I described the flag of the UN to her (with the olive branches and the globe in the middle symbolizing peace, whereas the depicted continents symbolize all people on earth) told her she was wrong in this particular case, concerning this fact. She said the flag I described belonged to the NATO. And yes, the flag of the NATO is (dark) blue as well but the image (resembling a 4 pointed star) is completely different.

You can observe the differences here :

The United Nations flag

Image

The flag of the NATO

Image

To convince me, the teacher then told me that Shiv Baba had explained her version in a Murli and she asked me in high voice if and how I could question Shiv Baba? (Remarkedly is that I asked her to show that Murli as related to the UNSC to me but she couldn't). I told her that according to me it was wrongly displayed, so we ended up in diverse points of view as I was not willing to buy her saying. I thought she was a bit silly though.

Also I opposed the idea of the United Nations becoming the instrument of the cult. I told her I simply couldn't image this future take-over would happen, that the world has too many strongholds and other influences counter fighting it.

However, to them it was only a matter of time, before that would take place.

Mr. Bush (jr)

Another interesting point was how they pictured the future roleplaying of Mr. W Bush (jr). It was an absolutely bizarre tale. I thought they had bothered this man enough and would leave him to his merits. But according to the teacher and Mr. Whaling this would not be so.

I asked them what would happen? Well, according to them Mr. Bush (jr) after having concluded this life, would come back to earth in a next incarnation, to play his decisive role. He would in fact end the World Drama and initiate a New Cycle.

I know this sounds controversial and presumptuous, as I think the Murli's teach differently and ascribe this karma to the reïncarnation of Mr. Lehkraj, but they told me Mr. Bush (jr) would reappear as an individual known as Kalkin. As I asked who Kalkin was, they said it is the destructive aspect of Krishna. When I asked them what would become of Mr. Lekhraj when Mr. Bush (jr) would play the Krishna-role, they told me Mr. Lekhraj would ... Would ?

They explained to me that Mr. Lekhraj would become the true version of Krishna in the Golden Age and that Mr. Bush (jr) would "only" destroy the world (ie the present civilisation) and therefore was remembered as a false version of Krishna in Bhakti, as being the impure version. It wasn't in Mr. Lekraj's karma to actually bring about the Destruction (*) He would reincarnate simultaneously with Mrs. Pokardas' third reincarnation (as she is presumedly already on earth right now) in the Golden Age, just at the beginning of that Era. In fact, the Golden Age would start with their incarnation. They again would then be honoured as Emperor Narayan and Empress Lakshmi, eventally.
Mr. Aznar's roleplaying (as explained by Mr. Whaling)

Mr. Aznar and the other BK-symphatic political leaders would play an important role towards Mr. Bush (jr) in decisively influencing the latter to his detriment. To be able to do this, Mr. Aznar got a personal assignment by BapDada, in order to succeed in his mission, ie. influencing Mr. Bush (jr) (unnoticed by the target himself). This notice was that Mr. Aznar had to spend "all" his time with Mr. Bush (jr) and give all his love to ... Mr. Bush.

This was a request that was quite radical, as considered by Mr. Aznar. At first Mr. Aznar did not understand it at all and felt troubled by it. He wouldn't mind to much spreading his love to BapDada himself (according to Mr Whaling). But to Mr. Bush (jr) was something else. Mr. Aznar felt puzzled and when he understood, he felt quite handicaped.

Nevertheless Mr. Aznar set forward to work on the task. However, after a while it affected him deeply because, whenever Mr. Bush was around, then Mr. Aznar payed (had to pay) very little, to almost no attention to his family. He was working hard and preferred spreading any attention to Mr. Bush (jr) instead of sharing love with his family ... All the time working and working on behalf of the BK-godspirit's aspirations.

His political friends (ie. Mr. Fox cs) pushed Mr. Aznar forwards because, as they said, according to Mr. Whaling, he was the only one of them that had incorporated (the vibrations of) love. The others had to wait for him. And Mr. Aznar, being the 'primus inter pares', realised this, thought of his mission. But it was a tough task.

Dedicated Mr. Aznar was, as far as the professor/Mr. Whaling, told me. But the matter of the fact is that his task was really hard to perform. Even when Mr. Aznar was helped by Shiv Baba by granting him a binding of love with the godspirit, (or maybe that happened first) it still remained a hard task. It depleted Mr. Aznar. And he got tired and depressed.

This was when the "magical touch" of Mr Whaling came in the game again. He was like a tutor, like a mentor surveying his pupils. A self appointed tutor though. He explained to me that he realised he had to pay this role. He glamoured in his new role he had now himself assigned to and glowed at me. He noticed that Mr. Aznar would have a hard time, also because he hardly saw his family anymore. Mr Aznar was really pushing himself to the limits.

Then he said, he made a "friendly, relieving" gesture towards Mr. Aznar to help him in this difficult situation. He recognised his dedication toward the "important task". However, if Mr. Aznar was drained, he couldn't serve the BKWSO anymore either. That's why Mr. Whaling prompted Mr. Aznar to take it a little less hard. Mr. Aznar was doing the best he could. He told him to relax a bit more, spend some (more) time with his family. Take a rest. He also told him to avoid suspicion that (surely) would arise, Mr Whaling faired, if Mr. Aznar kept on spending so extremily much time as he was doing with Mr. Bush (jr).

And so Mr. Aznar did. He took it "light" and this worked. Mr. Aznar recovered. He could fulfil his task and became successful. The teacher cheered that over the years she had learned that taking things lightly was such a beautiful way to deal with matters ...

I asked why Mr. Aznar had to actually "love" Mr. Bush (jr). Mr. Whaling told me it was because Mr. Bush (jr) had grown up without love and that it was now the time for him to experience love via Mr. Aznar. I asked them why he couldn't experience it in another, more direct way. Mr. Whaling told me that they wanted Mr. Bush to experience "love" but linked to the BK-goals and only in that way they wanted it. That was the reason for Mr. Aznar's strange role-playing.

However Mr. Aznar, by that time according to Mr. Whaling, did not wanted to be close to the BKWSO anymore. He said that fulfilling his job, at playing his role in the initiation of the Iraq-war, was his final mission and soon after he stepped back from politics. This was discussed in 1991-1992. Mr. Aznar did resign in 2004. And Mr. Whaling regretted this future event enormously as Mr. Aznar was so close to the fire.

But it was discussed that Mr. Aznar by doing so kept his election notice, a promise he made not to be re-elected after his second term. He himself being quite exhausted by performing this double task, that played an important role in this decision as well, according to them. In short it was an act regretted by the adherents.
    Now there is a lot to be said about the depiction of this situation but I describe it from the absurd perspective of Mr. Whalings-BK-tellings and the absolute overcharging of the influence of the BKWSO to give more insight in their ways of thinking, as far as I came to know it.
Confluence Time

Consequently, I asked them how they imagined Mr. Bush (jr)' reincarnation taking place before the proclaimed Destruction, that would take a start, according to their view, as the Confluence time was almost over?

The teacher then declared that this was relative, that the Confluence-time was elastic and could stretch longer, if necessary, as it formed no part of The Cycle in terms of Eras. Whether the "Transformation" needed a century to take place, or whether it would take 150 years, 250 years or longer, that was irrelevant. What was relevant though, was that the Golden Age would definitively come. She told me Shiv Baba would simply extend the Confluence Time a "little". It would not affect the length of the subsequent Eras. She also told me that the Confluence time was not over until global Destruction was completed. And Destruction would surely be. Both Mr. Whaling and the teacher were very passionate about that, even though Shiv Baba would not tell exactly how that event would take place, though it was being asked the godspirit repatedly, and also when that event would take place.

Mr. Whaling then added to the discussion a few remarks. He told me that he himself could not imagine the imminent big turnover taking place within decades. It was simply to soon, he argued.

So that was it ; the 5000 years cycle was stretched a little ... But it was still a 5000 years circle in terms of the 4 era.

Reincarnation

The teacher told me the numbers of BK adherents were also still too little to get the "Hercules-job" done. They told me that like Mr. Bush (jr)' reincarnation, likewise most (if not all) of the souls now attending the BK would reincarnate. Even those who had had the slightest contact with the BKWSO and BK-ism. They would then either return to the BK to gain further knowledge, more advanced lessons and complete their own personal transformation proces, or they would lead a life incognito, in oblivion, having reached the karmateet state already, as Advanced Party members and serve the BK in a more wordly way.

Being incognito, the innate knowledge of BK-ism would nevertheless lead them but determine their life in a subconscious way, directing them without them really knowing ... The teacher reaffirmed that anyone ever having been in contact with the BK would either return to the BK, or serve them in one or another way. Thus their numbers would grow dramatically towards the end of the Confluence Time ... And this in turn was a sign that the Confluence Era was coming to it's end. A sign of the BK-victory.

About Mr. Bush (jr)' the visions of the adherents differed. He would, according to them, no doubt return. And the Sanskara's from his former life would lead him to be president of America again. They were not sure, however, whether he would first become president and then turn to the BK, or linkup with the organisation first and then fulfil his ambition. It all depended upon his strenght. In other words, how long Mr. Bush (jr) could go on without having the need of the help and aid and support of the BKWSO. And without being uplifted by the so called "pure" vibrations of light and love, as indissoluble connected with BK-ism, according to them.

Tricky Karma

According to Mr. Whaling, the next life of Mr. Bush (jr) would be very, very tough, as he had already experienced many difficulties in his present life. It would be worse then. Besides that, he would have to conquer a lot of negative karma from his former (that is his present) life (mostly at Sanskara-level) And then comes the tricky part ... because during this life, let's say "in his darkest hour" there were his semi-BK political friends (Mr. Fox etc) "lightening him with the so called fine vibrations of light and love", supporting him unconsciously, but then in Mr. Bush (jr)' next life, it would not be so ...

Therefore Mr. Aznar was of so "immense" importance, as they explained me, because he was able to radiate the "sweet vibrations of BK-love" to Mr. Bush (jr). And he did this during his "uninterrupted" presence in Mr. Bush' vicinity, following him like a shadow. And as he was advised and instructed by Shiv Baba, according to what they told me.

But as explained in the previous thread "a letter to the president -2" those friends would not reincarnate again but in the Golden Era. They pictured how Mr. Bush (jr) would in vain search for them, being restlessly and sometimes even reluctantly led by his Sanskaras. Not even his Father, Mr Bush (sr) would be around to support him and protect him. They depicted how he would feel himself being alienated, an orphan ... crawling ... to the (BK)-god, looking for shelter. And then fall inevitably into the pit of BK-ism ... with devastating result.

The whole situation was laughable but they spoke with such sincere earnesty ... I couldn't doubt they believed it themselves.

To continue the conversation I said to them it was a terrible role to play. They called it karma ... he had applied for himself.

I discussed the fact whether Mr. Bush (jr) would at all return to the BK. Maybe that wouldn't even happen. They, however, said he would. Souls found their way home after 5000 years. He would surely find the way his next lifetime. Shiv Baba would influence the circumstances and by that way inspire Mr. Bush (jr) to come "home" as well, they said. I also asked them if anything could be done to prevent it happening. The teacher then said, "Hey, how would you avoid something taking place in the next generation?". As I said that it was, in fact, a deceitful game played towards Mr. Bush (jr), the teacher replied, "Hey, he will come to us out of free will. We won't enforce him to do so. In fact, we won't be even able to locate him ourselves ...".

This was the situation they painted.

The fact that Mrs. Pokardas, according to their religion a far more stronger soul, couldn't even find her way back to the BK was ignored. It was not her duty to return, they replied. Well, in that way one can make any theory fit.

Mr. Lekhraj

Mr. Whaling then told me that he was trying to figure out how an all destructive war could be brought about, and failed to do so. He could image regional conflicts taking place and events leading to that, but not an overall war. My suggestion that it maybe would not have to be so, was mainly and grossly ignored.

In the cause of time, the world would change because of inventions and other developments taking place and being implemented. That's was my opinion.The teacher agreed with me that the Transformation could be a gradual process and that then Destruction would be left out. I was hoping to work with them upon reforming the BK-organisation, as very small as or slightly insignificant my contribution would be. Hoping that they would leave that unpleasant path of destruction.

And I got the teacher, due to length of the discussion probably, to the point that she would question the Bapdada-medium this issue, 'cause I was not allowed (by them) to go there (Madhuban) myself (as I was still a beginning student). But when the teacher came back from her visit to Madhuban, it was "good old" Destruction again. That's when I decided to leave them as to me they seemed inflexible and not willing to take into account any other options or opinions. I detest(ed) the Destruction paradigm.

Another thing glued to that decision, is that the whole story of the path leading to Destruction was changed again because at first they said that Mr. Lekhraj would not incarnate before the end of Confluence Time. It would be Mr. Bush (jr)' reincarnation leading to Destruction. But then, all of a sudden, as the teacher was spirited from her stay in Madhuban, the whole story was reversed to Mr. Lekhraj' reincarnation leading to the end. And I felt sick and repulsed by their amoral twisting in many more aspects.

As said before (in the thread, "Mr. Lekhraj and Krishna, a strange twist"), I attended meditation at a center where the doctrine, at least concerning Mr. Lekhraj, was changed many, many times up to the point that no one could make sense out if it, including the teacher herself. For me, this was one change too much. I simply did not accepted it anymore and left.

So, with that, my involvement with "monitoring" the process of BK "world-influence" and desired global BK-sovereignty via (some) world leaders, as I happened to very coincidentally and fragmented get notice about, ceased.

Sinister Aspect

Well, according to me everything they have said is very hypothetical and uncertain. I see it as a bogus-story, a fairy tale for the well-believing. However, I questioned them as thoroughly as I could and they really believed the story themselves. One adherent was already drawing pictures of the Golden Age flying machines and re-designing them, refining the aerodynamics even though he did not know how the engine, powered by nuclear fusion, worked; even though these engines don't even exist (yet). But he wanted to be a mechanical engineer in the Golden Age. Maybe this situation is a good metaphor for the BK-organisation as a whole ...

He even showed me the drawing proudly.

What really bothers me from the above story, is the sinister aspect of it all. Whether or not true, how they had no scruples, according to their view, using a person as an instrument for their wicked program. The total lack of or absence of ethics. How they said they would not hesitate to try to do that again in this person's next life. And how they could be willing to accept that an organisation, designed to protect and defend human dignity (the UN), would easily be turned in their view into a destructive element to help eradicate almost the whole (besides the "chosen" 9,00,000) of mankind.

I guess that's what strikes me most. That, besides their totally bizarre fantasies, inspired by their godspirit. I think what they are up to, their plans, are a total disgrace however unreal they may seem. It is an abomination.

Also, I wonder if the UN are aware of the ridculous role they play in the fantasies of a bizarre, millenarian cult that gains credibility by misusing their name and good intentions.

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ex-l

ex-BK

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post16 Feb 2014

Whew ...
    Firstly, thank you very much for taking the time to document all that.

    Secondly, I will say it is highly believable of the types of speculation and connivances that go on within the Brahma Kumaris movement ... but far moreso that I ever realised.
I say that as my primary involvement was in the early 1980s and, at that time, such speculations were at a much lower, simplistic level. I was also not in the "inner circle" of VIP service - but knew everyone who was. They basically had no such VIP contacts at that point except for Madame Jehan Sadat Anwar Sadat, who Jayanti went shooting off to "serve" ... exploiting her vulnerable state after the death of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat I would say.

Yes, the BK taught the government of India would surrender power to them "just before Destruction". I find the idea of low level BK adherents - albeit high military ranking within the Indian military - becoming involved in such conflicts/ideas perfectly believable.

It's amazing, saddening, and concerning. It's obvious that the "folie a plusieurs" (the collective madness of many) of he early Om Mandli days has continued on to this day. I also think your portrayal of the BK center-in-charge as someone confused, delirious, and easily influenced or control is very good. Being sent to Madhuban to have one's attitude "fixed" is typical. Your account also fits into the model of the contemporary New Age/Conspiracy Theory freaks who believe the UNO is a tool of evil being used by a secret "New World Order" attempting to take over and enslave humanity.

In such a theory, it would fit that the Brahma Kumaris are also a tool of the same evil ... which is actually what some of such theorist believe! Not that the Brahma Kumaris are pulling the strings but that they are puppets of the spiritual influences behind the New World Order. (Please note, this is not my theory, I am just reporting on concurrent theories and discussions).

By "Aznar", you mean José María Alfredo Aznar López, Prime Minister of Spain from 1996 to 2004? So the BKs were dabbling with him too? Really?

I am sorry, I cannot remember ... did you mention which center and who this center-in-charge was?

Other academics have also noted how, once the facade drops, the BKs are willing to expound on all sort of military theories and relish the idea of Destruction. It has also been noted how they have changed specific details of their teachings and media, e.g. changes the faces of the American and Russian premiers when one Destruction prediction failed.

Right now, it's looking much more likely that a confrontation between China and USA will happen ... and yet the entire history and culture of China - one of the longest and best documented on Earth - is missing from The Knowledge of the Brahma Kumari god spirit. I'd laugh if they change their philosophy again to include China.

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post02 Mar 2014

Thank you ex-l for your reply. As you say ...
ex-l wrote:It's amazing, saddening, and concerning. It's obvious that the "folie a plusieurs" (the collective madness of many) of he early Om Mandli days has continued on to this day.

I totally argee on that and as far as being amazing; if only the BKs were not in so complete earnestly themselves.
They basically had no such VIP contacts at that point except for Madame Jehan Sadat Anwar Sadat ...

This was said to me as well. But the contact wore down in time, was not extensive, not long lived, according to the center in charge. The teacher also told me that, apart from the "Fox CS-group", the previous BK - VIP contacts were limited. She could only mention Mr. Peres being approached at earlier date. Or, what also could be, that the teacher did not know any further of it.
By "Aznar", you mean José María Alfredo Aznar López, Prime Minister of Spain from 1996 to 2004 ? So the BKs were dabbling with him too ? Really ?

Yes, as explained to me by Mr. Whaling.

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post02 Mar 2014

Is there a relation between head of government- (BK-related)-high officials and the UNSC ??

Surveying over the named individuals (of the sc. "Fox cs- group") and the moment their country was a member of the United Nations Security Council I observed some synergy. Maybe it's just coincidental. I don't know.
    Mrs. Pratibha Patil : president of India from 2007 - 2012
    India being a member of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) from 2011 - 2012

    Mr. Jean Chretin : president of Canada from 1993 - 2003
    Canada being a UNSC member from 1999-2000

    Mr. Jose Maria Aznar : president of Spain from 1996 - 2004
    Spain being a UNSC member from 2003 - 2004

    Mr. Lech Walesa being president from Poland from 1990 - 1995
    Poland being an UNSC member from 1996 - 1997 !!

    Mr. Vicente Fox being president of Mexico from 2000 - 2006
    Mexico being an UN member from 2002 - 2003

    Mr. Shimon Peres being president of Israel from 2007 till ???
    Israel has not been an member of the UNSC but was applying for that on October 2013 and hoping to be admitted in 2019-2020.
Overall source, Wikipedia's "List of members of the United Nations Security Council", see paragraph 'Membership by year'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_United_Nations_Security_Council

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At the time (1991- 1992) there was a discussion at the center I attended. The teacher explained to me that the BK would deliver a head of country (president / prime minister) each time that country was a member of the UNSC, from a certain moment in time. I don't remember well when it would start. I do remember though that the teacher regretted that Mr. Walesa's regency would end just before Poland would become a member of the UNSC.

As I asked her why, the teacher told me Mr. Walesa was in power but could not hold on to governmental power long enough to "make it". She explaned that his government would become unstable toward the end. And however much he liked it, Mr. Walesa would have to resign and new elections would come.

I questioned if Mr. Walesa couldn't hold on just a bit more if that was so very important to them but the teacher said it would not be so. Mr. Whaling was there as well and ascribed it to Mr. Walesa still holding on too much to his Catholic faith. They called it a flaw, a regrettable flaw.

However, what was important was that they attributed a lot of importantce to this UNSC membership of a certain country and the regency of a head government of that same country having been BK-approached, being in contact with the BK, if not being BK-minded. It was something that had to be, I more or less understood from it, a moloch.

The series would end with Israel. It would end with Mr. Peres and in 2020 Israel would become a member of the UNSC. All that time Mr. Peres would hold on with all his strength/endurance, already being a very old man, to "rule". But he would just make it, according to them. I told them I thought it would be almost impossible that such an old man would still be part of a government but they said it would be.

Well, that's another prediction (amongst the many personal predictions for high officials, I guess, the BK-oracle made). Time will tell whether this one will come true. And what really is the ultimate significance of it. Personally, I doubt if it has much significance even if it becomes true.

I asked them why "2020" was important. They said it was like a chain of beads and after that time it would not be possible anymore to deliver a BK-orientated central government leader at the moment this country was also a member of the UNSC. After that time it was not necessary anymore. What they said was enigmatic and they also were either a bit vague about it, or trying to look interesting, did not know the significance of it themselves, or had outspoken things they better could not say to a beginner and tried to cover up. However, "2020" was there. When I came back to it the following lesson, the teacher told me it was just a funny thing and further had no significance. It was just something to enjoy, a sign of their growing strength.

Concerning the thread of beads, they also told me that from a certain moment in time (was that from the starting point of 1990 ?) every time a BK-orientated head of government would be around if a country would be elected to be a member of the UNSC. Other national leaders that were not yet BK-minded or had been into contact with the BK would do so, making sure the BK-UNSC chain would be intact.

And then, when I zoomed more into it and asked again, the teacher herself told me again it was just a nice thing the BK could do and had no further significance. Life would just simply go on as before. Nothing would change.

Concerning the need to be there, at the UN, they told me that, at present, the BK was only allowed to be present at meetings of the UN. But that wouldn't be always so. Their influence would increase when situations would become more unstable. They told me that then, if circumstances deteriorated, they would have been around already, for many years and would be perfectly accepted by everyone. They were sitting, metaphorically, at second row seats, waiting to take over the seats of the first row when time was there, being eagerly to play their act.

I asked whether there was any reference to the biblical Israel but to them there was not. It was just a coincidence that Israel was the last bead in the chain.

It could be interesting to look at the "intermediate years" and see if the BK would really be able to glue themselves to a head of government in the year this country would be a member of the UNSC. (I have not done that). At the time there was a discussion between the teacher and myself. She told me all the required individuals, being the presidents and prime ministers of countries would all "line up".

I told her I could not imagine this actually taking place. I couldn't image that it would work out that way. Maybe it worked with a few individuals for the time being, but not with all. I said, to me it simply seemed to be too intense an effort, to be made.

The teacher told me the organisation was big enough to bear this effort.

However, it is not understandable that the BK, if they really are aiming at more influence in the UNSC, are not aiming at the five permanent members of the security council instead of concentrating on the shifting, temporary members. It seems unlogic and a tremendous great effort, working for only a short span of time.

The teacher then said that "conquering influence over the permanent UNSC members" would also take place, later in time but that this was much harder to achieve. And the BK would not directly aim at the bulls-eye but exert their influence on "the lower listed"/non permanent UNSC member-countries" first. This would pave the way for them.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post03 Mar 2014

I don not understand your logic.

All this seems to say is that every country that was on the security council had a president or prime minister. Yeah, so?
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post03 Mar 2014

Is not he saying that the BKs are assigning some "magical significance" to their contacting the individuals and then that individual becoming a representative on the Security Council, or something? If so, that is typical of a pattern of assigning "magical significances" to where there is none. There was definitely a tendency I saw. "It's a sign ...!!!" Nope, it's just a coincidence on the basis of probability.

Peres is 90 years old now ... they better get a hurry on. But who worries ... if a prediction fails it is just swept under the carpet and forgotten along with all the others. Dismissed as "student error".

The BKs have exaggerated the "right" to pay for an office loiter at meetings, with minor departs of the UNO, for decades. They clasp onto it for credibility desperately, broadcasting to anyone and everyone alike, like a lifeboat in the middle of a storm. It has just become part of their con. Blah ... blah ... blah ... United Nations ... United Nations ... United Nations ... you would think they own it.

The fact is, the BKs are no where near the real core nor having any influence ... and the question is, how influential is the UN anyway? It might impress a Gujerati corner store owner into believe his hard earn cash donations are doing some good ... and it might fluff up the egos of the Western BKs who can use it to convince themselves and others they are not in an extremely whacky End of the World cult ... but it does not really impress major governments and influential players.

The BKs are using it for social climbing, not giving anything back. They "status" means they can hand in pithy 'look good' position papers, and that it about it. Oh, they they get to loiter in corridors, attend fringe meetings where they can try and grab IPs or VIPs and promote themselves.

What else do they do?

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post12 Apr 2014

Thank you Pink Panther and ex-l for your replies.
Pink Panther wrote: : I do not understand your logic

It is not my logic ; it's theirs. There's the difference. I think one can see the previous post as a documentation of a part of their faith, or one version of that. But I was very surprised also. To me it shows the way they exaggerate. I am glad that the actual situation is million miles away from the BK-desired-"reality". I put it there to show what the BKs fantasies are about, concerning their "connection" to the UN. What I also think they are trying to do is to fit anything into their theories to make them seem valuable.
All this seems to say is that every country that was on the security council had a president or prime minister. Yeah, so?

Neither do I understand much about their logic, Pink Panther. It's a good remark. But as far as I could get the picture clear at the time, the BKs I met placed high emphasis upon the fact that some of those VIPs had some knowledge about BK-ism and they sort of believed (hoped) these VIPs would stay with them and that those VIPs would remain loyal no matter how many signs of the contrary those VIPs gave (or totally ignored the cult afterward). I guess this was (one of) the BKs' basic ideas of the desired future-developments, as far as I could comprehend.
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Misty wrote:However it is ... short span of time.
conquering influence over the permanent UNSC members ... This would pave the way for them.

As an addition I can tell that, at the time I asked why the BK was concentrating on the UNSC instead of on national countries. They then told me that the BK was to weak to infect the military branch of national countries directly but they used the opportunity the UNSC and UN in general gave them to make the ultimate leap. One exception they named, namely India where it would work out to infiltrate directly, due to their stronger presence and the weak structure of the Indian military, especially the lower branches. But that would not be enough to infect other countries as well.

Well I would say, another fabrication of atrocity of weird and twisted minds. One would almost forgot that they advocate the facade of peace and serinity as well.

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From Wikipedia comes the following description :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma_Kumaris_at_the_United_Nations
The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU) is a non-governmental organization in general consultative status http://esango.un.org/paperless/reports/E2010INF4.pdf with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC]), in consultative status with the United Nations Children's Fund UNICEF and affiliated to the Department of Public Information (DPI) UNDPI. It is also an accredited observer organization http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2009/cop15/eng/08r01.pdf to UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) UNFCCC.
In 1980 the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the United Nations Department of Public Relations as an Non-Governmental Organisation. The relationship grew closer in 1983 when the Brahma Kumaris achieved consultative status with the Economic and Social Council at the United Nations. The BKWSU now have a permanent office space in New York for their work at the United Nations [*]

[*] Whaling, Frank (2012). Understanding the Brahma Kumaris. Dunedin Academic Press Ltd. p. 65

Concerning the fact that the BK continiously modifies the information given on Wikipedia to match their faith and central ideology, one has to ask whether this information is fully true and trustworthy. Thereby I would describe Mr. Frank Whaling as a BK promoter and advertise-agent.

If I remember well (from information I have obtained somewhere else (*) ), this "consultative status" doesn't really mean what people might think it stands for. The BK members are not allowed to ask questions themselves, nor to take part in the discussions, or to put items on the agenda. They only basically have the right to be present there and listen to the conversations and discussions.

(*) : pls correct me if I am wrong

As you can see there are a great many organisations that have an advisory status at the UN ; the BK is one of the many.

List of non-governmental organizations in consultative status with the Economic and Social Council as of 1 September 2010

I have no actual knowledge of how/in what way the BK are "present" at the UN but I can easily accept ex-l's description as accurate. I do know though that the BK exploits this fact to make advertisement for the cult ; I have seen that myself in various ways.

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In "[url="http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2009/cop15/eng/08r01.pdf"]UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC)[/url]" (page 1) it says the following :
that the secretariat should invite to its future sessions, and to sessions of its subsidiary bodies, all intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations admitted atthat session and at future sessions, unless an objection was raised to any particular organization in accordance with the Convention and the draft rules of procedure being applied. (*1)


(*1) : FCCC/CP/1995/7, paragraph 22.

Maybe there's a opportunity to protest against the falsifing abuse of the UN facade by the BK for propagada-isssues.

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ex-l wrote : ... Dismissed as "student error.

Oh, is that the way they shift the blame for the failing predictions ? Funny ! An (so called) "omniscent god" should know better, one would think. Especially if it is that godspirits own predictions. Maybe god is a bit messsed up. Or at least disorganised. Or has an identity problem.

Maybe it is good to stress that personal predictions do not stand the standard of global destruction preditions, as done by the BK and failed several times.
What else do they do?

As far as VIP's are concerned and as far as I know they invited the former Secretary General Mr. Perez de Cuellar twice to Madhuban. The second time he was there to speak on a forum about sanitation but I wondered what a forum of that intention had to do with a millenary cult. And I doubted if he knew what the BKs' real intentions were. There was a vision publicated in the "Visions of a Better World" book as many others (VIPs as well as "ordinary" people) but again I doubt if Mr. Perez de Cuellar knew in what way his name was used.

Image

About this sanitation forum I had a short conversation with an adherent. I asked her why Mr. Perez de Cuellar was at that sanitation forum at all. She told me, what I already knew, that proper sanitation is a great problem for third world coutries. But the BK does not do charity, I already had noticed that at the time... It was/ is an awkward situation.
ex-l wrote : The BKs have exaggerated the "right" to pay for an office loiter at meetings, with minor departs of the UNO, for decades. They clasp onto it for credibility desperately, broadcasting to anyone and everyone alike, like a lifeboat in the middle of a storm. It has just become part of their con.


What I don't understand is that if the facade of the BK behind which they take shelter is so shallow, why are they still there ? One would think it would be easy to tell concerned people about the real intentions of the cult. Especially at this place where there is so much attention at human rights. I have heard that some protests have been send ? What is the result ? Is the BK-lobby so strong, do they bribe ? Divine intervention ?

What this cult does to individuals, families and communities, they way they inflict damage certainly is not at all what the UN is about, let alone the cults bizarre philosophies and goals. And the cult has been there around for decades ? How can that be so ? I would say the number of individuals, in some or another way abused are quite considerable over the decades. Thousands if not tenthousands are hurt. And it goes on ... and on ... and on. Won't that be enough to draw UN's attention ?
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post13 Apr 2014

A report of BK activities at the UN would be interesting, e.g. any diary, log or accounting of what work is done there and by whom, what meetings or sessions are attended by which BK rep, and what reports they submitted back to the BK org or to the UN org. What expenses are required for that work, and so on.

Does the UN review their ‘affiliates” by any criteria?

That is, is there any transparent accountability?
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post12 Feb 2015

There was a leaked internal paper from the BKs about their activities at the UN, I think it is in the Library section. In brief, what it was saying was that their primary efforts were ensure that they appeared to be the "source of spirituality" (as if spirituality is a thing or stuff). Appearances ... appearances ... hence the bonfire of vanity.

They have published a few pithy "position papers" which basically say nothing. Certainly nothing that has not been said before. It's all about appearances. Appearing to be good and "spiritual", if spiritual is defined as wafting around looking like angels being Om Shanti at all times in public (... they aren't in private and can argue, conflict and bully).

Their status allows them to put in such papers and that is about it. They are meant to be there supporting the UN's work. What they are really doing is using the UN for networking and social climbing and as a facade of acceptability to give credibility to their real nefarious beliefs and intentions ... hence the pithy, non-controversial, "royal" position papers which might all just be summarised as "why don't we all just be nice to each other (and can we play - and be paid to be - the priest caste please)?"

It is a would be Brahmin caste courting the global Kshatriya class (military/administrators) offering its services (providing thoughts) in exchange for position, security and (hopefully) financial upkeep.

Yes, like anything to do with the Brahma Kumaris, proper accounting would be interesting to see. How much of their donors' money have they spent on what returns ... and what at all have the poor, weak or vulnerable gained from it?

I suspect *nothing*. I mean, did they actually put in any sanitation into Mount Abu for anyone else but themselves? Or just talk about it and use it to be see ... appearances ... to be spiritual?

In the academic paper by Richard Musselwhite, the unhappy ordinary people of Mount Abu - who suffer the BKs' noise, pollution and economic effects - are specifically record as saying (approximately), "... but what can we do about it? The BKs are powerful, they are friends with the United Nations".

This suggests to me that the BKs are using and exaggerating the very slight UN connection all over India too.

Yes, the BKs have been all over the Wikipedia whitewashing it. Who really can afford to spend their entire life counteracting the dishonesty of amoral and cult indoctrinated fanatics? I tried for a while ...

Interestingly, I discovered the primary BK activist - who has lost his moral compass and taken the business very personally - had actually married another BK female. Everyone presumes in a marriage of convenience to defraud the immigration department of the United Kingdom. There has been more than one in London centre. The Kirpalani Klan goes along with it but does not allow or encourage its slave caste of young girls in India to do so.

BKs really are [not] supposed to marry, not even for such reasons ... but they do. And that they do, evidences their attitude towards the law (which is "you can break it if you want, just remember Baba when you do it"). Stealing from employees, dubious taxable reporting, immigration fraud etc ... it's all acceptable if it is "good for Baba".

Funnily enough, the same individual had also collaborated in the legal case to shut us down, or sufficiently damage us that we gave up, with another BK despite knowing that her intentions were for her own personal benefit and that she was using the charity for them. That other BK centre-in-charge (BK Hansa Raval) had also directly defrauded the US immigration departed by marrying an British BK Brother, attempted to defraud the US immigration department by telling it that well paid Indian BK Brothers seeking US residency were "priests in the community" ... had a relationship with said Brother, and much worse which is documented elsewhere. They wanted the BKs in the country to provide money, free labor and other benefits.

Once exposed, the BKWSU/BKWSU did nothing to censor nor punish it.

So, a) there are the BKWSU/BKWSO's real ethics and b) faced with confronting such amoral yet fanatic individuals on a "secret mission" from their god spirit ... what can one do?

I would encourage individuals to write in concern to the UN about the BKs' real intentions and motivations. I suggest the first thing to do is to write to the UN and ask them what evidence they need.

There is an interesting element to this ... and that is to observe how much of the BKWSU's activities have been altered and warped in order to provide the facade that allows them to sustain such relationships. In the beginning, right up to the 1980s - and to this day in India - the BKs were absolutely fundamentalist. They did their 7 Days Course ... They told it how it was ... Take or leave according to your fortune.

Of course, in the West, that was getting them no where. They looked nuts. They look even nuttier now that all the failed prediction, manipulations, abuses and historical revisions etc have been exposed. Therefore they have had to develop and invest in all this other activity some of which is actually contradictory to their real beleifs - and the re-writing of their language and religion - in order to sustain mask they wear in public.

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post12 Feb 2015

Thank you ex-l and Pink Panther for your replies. I was not able to reply earlier as I was quite busy.

Regarding the things I heard at the time, I still find it hard things to match.
ex-l wrote:... it's just coincidence on the basis of probability"
... if a prediction fails it is swept under the carpet.
Pink Panther wrote:All this seems to say .. Yeah so ?

My problem is that I have heard about Mr Chretin, Mr Aznar, Mr Fox and Mr Perez becoming president/prime minister well before they had this position (in the '90-'92 period when I joined them). None of those predictions did not come true.

The BKs claimed they carried these individuals to their position where they themselves could not. I think they would have made it themselves as well. But somehow lost hope, or courage, perseverance or interest.

I am tending to think that the god spirit in these cases had awareness of the future. I hate that word "awareness" as it is so "linked to the BK-vocabulary" but it describes it well. Right now I do not know of any other word.

But, in both cases, I feel uncomfortable at the point that I have not yet heard of any psychic medium that can predict the rise of a certain individual as head of state many years prior to the persons election.

There are highly unlikely individuals amongst them to become president or prime minister, like Mr. Fox, who was working with Coca-Cola. Or Mr. Chretin who, himself, had said that he did not want to be president but of whom the BK said he would. Or Mr. Perez, highly aged.

They had to be (more or less) chosen democratically by thousands upon thousands of voters.

Then there is the fact that, they were on reign when their country was a member of the UNSC. No one knows (as far as I know, but correct me if I am wrong!) which country is going to be a member of the UNSC in the future. Not untill the UNSC declares that themselves.

To combine the both is even more unlikely still.
ex-l wrote:... if a prediction fails it is swept under the carpet

My problem with that is that none of these above predictions failed but also that I would have told about the flaws as well (but that's not common practice among the BKWSO). But they told me about the flaws (like the desintegration of the government of Mr. Walesa, who at the time was highly popular and which I found quite unlikely).

And what to do with the prediction of Israel becoming member of the UN and the link that I placed in which Israel is actually applying for? It was in the '90-'92 period that I have heard it. Or the building of the wall around Israel which they also told me about in '90-'92 long before it was build?

But then again, I asked them if the godspirit also told about future resolutions of the UN against regimes, but it doesn't. For instance, why would the godspirit mention the building of the Palestine Wall but not mention the resolution the UN spoke about it ? (resolution ES 10/15 from July 2014). Or other resolutions of the UN. Surely the Shiva would know about that as well?

Picture Palestine wall (detail : Michelangelo -- The creation of Adam -- Sitine Chapel)

Image

A view at the palestine wall
Image

So on the BK-wall surrounding their fortess we could rather paint another picture. But in that case I think the lefthand would belong to the BK-godspirit. A twisted picture, as the BKWSO loves them so much ...

Image

If BK was about to organise a picknick in the park I would not be concerned. But the core idea's are not about that. Not even on personal level.

There are a lot of predictions on worldwide scale that failed. I have lived through one of them. But these predictions did not fail. Are these examples "coicidence on the basis of probability". Or am I not quoting you right ex-l ?

The only thing I can think of is the chance of large numbers predictions and then chance that makes some true. But so precise ?

My problem with Mrs. Patil is that, even though they did not mention her at the time, there is such a the contrast between the old Bhaibund community fleeing from India and the actual state of the BKWSO in India that could not be bigger.

But the cover up and rewriting is very sad. When I heard about it, at this occasion, the center in charge told me that not only the Murlis are being rewritten, but also the predictions made, if they were unsuitable.

I asked them why they did this rewriting because the teacher told me that some people spend their entire time solely by collecting the predictions, putting order to them and rewriting them. The teacher then told me the godspirit asked them to do so. But they looked upon it as great fun. They did the same with the Murlis.

Another thing that I tend to believe is that I got the impression that the access to the personal preditions or more detailed ones were restricted to those individuls that were of some sort of higher ranking (even if they told me they weren't). But even among those preditions there were flaws, but they fitted better as the overal general Destruction predictions, that failed each time.

I wish to add that these overal predictions failed every time they were made. I am not losing that out of sight. And that is much more significant.

Or as ex-l says
They predicted Destruction in WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986, 1986 to 1996, Year 2000, 2012 ... and so on.

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post12 Feb 2015

ex-l wrote:The fact is, the BKs are no where near the real core nor having any influence ... and the question is, how influential is the UN anyway?
... it does not really impress major governments and influential players.

I don't know what you mean by real core. What I do know is as I described that people like Mr. Vicente Fox had close bonds with the BK, as narrated by Mr. Whaling and as far as his credibility is worthy. His country was part of the non-permanent members of the UNSC during his regency as well as the others mentioned.

As to the influence on major governments and influential partners, I recall that the BK center in charge told me that the BK wasn't having any influence upon major governments but upon individuals within those governments. And then not during these individuals were in those governments but before and afterwards. As for other influential partners they told me that the influence upon the process usually lasted longer as the time of staying in a certain position was not limited to a period of reign but to as long as a member being inside that specific organisation would stay loyal.

But they also told me their influence was very weak. They never bragged about that.

The item is mainly telling about ideas of BKs, supported by at least, as far as I tend to think, the influence of the BK godspirit. I did not come up with this story, they did. It shows one aspect of their ideology.

Apart from that I think that the UN at least tries to show and act out some morals and ethics in a world that has got little. That's their strength.

Misty

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post12 Feb 2015

Pink Panther wrote:A report of BK activities at the UN would be interesting, e.g. any diary, log or accounting of what work is done there and by whom, what meetings or sessions are attended by which BK rep, and what reports they submitted back to the BK org or to the UN org. What expenses are required for that work, and so on."
ex-l wrote:The BKs have exaggerated the "right" to pay for an office loiter at meetings, with minor departs of the UNO, for decades.
Yes, like anything to do with the Brahma Kumaris, proper accounting would be interesting to see. How much of their donors' money have they spent on what returns ... and what at all have the poor, weak or vulnerable gained from it ?"

I remember that at the time I was interested in the kind of thing the BKWSO was doing at the UN and wanted to check out up things. Then the center in charge told me the staggering story that it actually was not worth going there, because there was nothing to see. I asked a little further and heard that there was just "an office and a desk".

So I told them that it could be worth seeing what it was all about. Then the teacher admitted that most of the time there was no one around. I was quite surprised and asked why they weren't working at their office. She then told me, just like you both said, those representatives were hanging around just to meet VIPs etc.

So I asked if they were the whole year just hanging around and taking profit of their luxury position. She then proclaimed that the BK representatives attended all the meetings. But as I asked what they did there, the center in charge told me the BK could only be present there and nothing else.

I then raised the question who was paying for the office en conveniences of the representatives? The teacher was rather surprised and answered that it was the BKWSO doing the payment. At least for the office (I think that she mentioned that the representatives had to sustain themselves, but I am not sure about that). As I raised the question where in fact the money came from to hire that office she told me there was little money involved. But all the money was donated by the BK-adherents.

As I insisted, she then sort of specified the categories.

As an example she also told me that from her wages, she donated part to the organisation. When I rephrased and asked whether all the adherents did this, she more or less confirmed that most of them did. I asked her if all adherents where wealthy. The teacher told me it was not so. Some of them were very poor but nevertheless gave money to the organisation. She told me this was done when they visited Madhuban.

I rephrased again, saying that some of the adherents, being poor people, had worked very hard the whole year and gave their money to the BKWSO. The BK-representatives were just hanging around and now and then attended a conference, working in an office where they were seldom seen etc. I asked her what those poor adherents would think about such a situation.

The teacher then told me these people do not even raise these kind of questions.

Consequently, I asked her if she could give me more insights in the coasts and benefits of this UN connection. The teacher then said that the BKWSO does not do investigation into these kinds of matters and is not interested in these kind of issues but that she would do her best to find out more about it.

Almost needless to say, I never heard anything from it anymore.
ex-l wrote:So, a) there are the BKWSU/BKWSO's real ethics ...

The way I look at the BKWSO is that there is their sayings, the meaning behind it and what they really are doing. Because it is different levels, at which they operate, it is so hard to see through at first.
Of course, in the West, ... in order to sustain the mask they wear in public.

That seems reasonable ex-l. Thanks for the information. It may be that some BKs met someone related to the UN and took advantage of the situation rather than a planned strategy as you suggested but I either way can live with it. What I do think though is that it is rather a cosmetic transition and that the core of BK-ism remained unchanged. Just as you suggested.

The Hansa Raval story I find hard to follow but I see it more as an example, though not being part of the topic, I guess?

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post13 Feb 2015

Next lesson I came back to the issue of the UN. I asked if the teacher had done any inquiry upon the issue of input and revenue with regards to the connection of the BKWSO with the UN. She had completely neglected the subject and was just interested in teaching.

But to test her I did one more thing. I asked her how much she actually knew about the UN human rights chapter. About basic human rights. She knew nothing about it and was even surprised that I raised that question.

She was also curious to find out why I came to ask that question. I replied that as the BKWSO was pretending to be so closely related to the UN, how could it be that she, being a teacher knew nothing about it. I even asked if it was part of her training. It wasn't. Neither did she have a copy of the human rights chapter in her bookcase, for instance.

She then further ignored my questioning and continued teaching. My conclusion was that the BKWSO was not at all that close with the UN.
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ex-l

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Re: The Brahma Kumaris and the United Nations

Post13 Feb 2015

Thank you for your posts.

I think the word in English is "prescient" or "prescience", having or showing knowledge of events before they take place or 'the fact of knowing something in advance or foreknowledge'.

I, personally, don't have a problem in accepting agree of psychicism or clairvoyance amongst the BKs at all. Others might disagree. What it is or how it works, I have no idea ... however, I do not add 2 + 2 and jump to 10 million claiming that their godspirit must therefore be God etc.

Purely theoretically, I do not even consider psychism to be necessarily good. Rather the opposite, I accept the classic point of view, that psychism - or consorting with earth bound spirits (whatever they might be) is a relatively low level of spirituality or even "evil". Endless psychics have endless predictions which, even just by probability, a small proportion of are likely to come to happen.

"Even a stopped or broken clock is right twice a day", they say.

For me, having explored this area a little ... the only thing reliable about psychics and psychicism is that they are unreliable. And, yes, many have made such high level predictions with great accuracy; Swedenborg, Edward Cayce, Nostradamus come to mind immediately. But so too have non-psychics on the basis of inside information ...

Almost all of them made such vague statements so as to be left open to interpretation.

We humans suffer from confirmatory bias. We tend to remember what we like and what confirms our beliefs and quickly forget that which does not. The problem we have with Shiva/BapDada/Gulzar is, as you point out, no one scientifically documents *every* prediction made and earnestly follows up to see how accurate it came true.

Quite the opposite, as you point out, they take pleasure in revising and falsifying or removing them. Again, for me, evidence of the level they and their god spirit is at. I am of a very low status in life but yet even I would consider that unethical. We don't know how many failed but we do know the SCALE of failures.

God or the Father of Humanity get the size of human population wrong, the date for the End of the World, not even knowing about Judaism or being able to tell the difference between Islam and Muslim are such HUGE errors that they prohibit even the smallest possibility.

There are those who believe BapDada is Luciferic in nature. I would say the argument for that is actually stronger.

Checking up just one of your examples, I found that in 1992, then-prime minister Yitzhak Rabin proposed the idea of creating a physical barrier to separate the Israeli and Palestinian populations. By the time a prime minister suggests something, usually it has gone the rounds of academics, politicians and intelligence people, so I would think that was a strong case.

However, until the BKs are willing and able to come clean and be mature about their goings on, we are all a loss. They can make and break predictions and promises at will and no one will challenge them.

Why, we even learned from a relatively new member of the forum that they are, again, shredding old Murlis in order to hide the differences between then and new ones.

Is that ethical? Is that evidence of Godliness?

I would say the UN is talking shop but also a bit of an ideological battlefield at the highest level, e.g. America's attitude towards it.

The BKs are just in there on a pretence of being what they are not - at considerable expense - doing what they do best ... social climbing and self-promotion.
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