The difference between discussion and argument

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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shivsena

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The difference between discussion and argument

Post10 Jun 2014

discussion.jpg
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Pink Panther

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Re: Good quotes

Post11 Jun 2014

”Argument” only has that confrontational sense when used in it’s vulgar form (i.e. colloquially) - it mainly means
Argument: a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.

"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"

synonyms: reasoning, line of reasoning, logic, case; defence, justification, vindication, apology, explanation, rationalization; evidence, reasons, grounds; argumentation, polemic; assertion, declaration, claim, plea, contention, expostulation, demonstration

Middle English (in the sense ‘process of reasoning’): via Old French from Latin argumentum, from arguere ‘make clear, prove, call to account’.

shivsena

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Re: Good quotes

Post12 Jun 2014

Pink Panther wrote:Argument” only has that confrontational sense when used in it’s vulgar form (i.e. colloquially) - it mainly means

Yes----Argument for the sake of understanding is Discussion...and argument for the sake of argument is Confrontation.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Good quotes

Post12 Jun 2014

Are you arguing against my position or discussing it? ;-)

The main point is that "discussions" can go on forever with everyone’s OPINION being equally valid regardless of content and substance. Politicians use the phrase, "we need to have a discussion on this topic", and that means nothing is sorted, the ignorant are given equal time to the expert and the vested interests can claim their disinformation to muddy the debate is equally valid (e.g. fossil fuel industry climate change deniers and tobacco industry advocates).

Of course, listening respectfully is needed so that all points are heard and understood, but it is the better argument that should hold sway.
“I find I am much prouder of the victory I obtain over myself, when, in the very ardor of dispute, I make myself submit to my adversary’s force of reason, than I am pleased with the victory I obtain over him through his weakness.”

― Michel de Montaigne, The Complete Essays

shivsena

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Re: Good quotes

Post15 Jun 2014

Pink Panther wrote:Are you arguing against my position or discussing it? ;-)

Each soul knows his own position the best ... in Avyakt Vani it is said that every soul has to judge his own actions and intention himself.

shivsena

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post16 Jun 2014

everything is an opinion..jpg
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ex-l

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post16 Jun 2014

In 1950, the year of the BKs second failure in the prediction of Destruction, Alan Turing designed 'The Turing Test'. A test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behaviour equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of a human.

In the original example, a human judge engages in natural language conversations with a human and a machine designed to generate a performance indistinguishable from that of a human being. If the judge could not reliably tell the machine from the human, the machine is said to have passed the test.

{The discussion was limited to a text-only medium such as a internet forum).

I have invented a test called 'The ex-l Test'.

The ex-l Test methodology is to test a BK's, PBK's, or post-PBK's ability to exhibit intelligent behaviour equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of a human being. If at the end of the test the BK or PBK can reliably be told apart from a tape recoding machine, the BK or PBK is said to have passed the test and retained some of their humanity.

"Wah Drama ... Remember Baba ... Be soul conscious ... Don't think, Don't question ... Remember you are the observer ... Master almighty ocean of knowledge ... the same as last Kalpa" and so on.

We need more evidence that information is going in, it is being considered and a related response is coming out.

As for Democritus, Shivsena ... I thought you were an 'atma-ist' not an 'atomist'?

Democritus was noted as a bit of a joker for his rhetorical use of irony and ridicule. Are you sure he was being serious when he said that? It also condemns all your churnings down to opinions as well.
Πολλοὶ πολυμαθέες νοῦν οὐκ ἔχουσιν.

Where do you think the whole of Greek philosophy and the mythology of their gods fit into The Knowledge, Shivsena? They are obviously not Jewish nor Hindu, and yet pre-Christian.

We know why Lekhraj Kirpalani never mentioned them ... we can presume that he had just never heard of them ... but surely the BKs' god of gods should have some inkling to their contribution to human evolution? Where would they fit in the BKs' Tree of Humanity?
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Pink Panther

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post18 Jun 2014

Democritus’s atomism and other pre-Socratics’ philosophies reveal a close philosophical link to Buddhist teachings which were contemporary. i.e. the Buddhist statement ”all compounded things are impermanent”.

As the the only non-compounded things are the constituent elements (atom - that which is indivisible) then only atoms have continual own being, all other things are composites - including ourselves and our thoughts - which arise co-dependently then fall away again depending on circumstances.

shivsena

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post18 Jun 2014

quote-the-more-discussion-the-better.jpg

shivsena

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post22 Jun 2014

aim of discussion.jpg
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Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post23 Jun 2014

Hi Shivsena,

If yuo believe in what is written in image you posted on 16 june, 2014. A saying by Democritus that, "there is nothing except atoms & space; everything else is opinion", then what do say about SOUL? Is it an atom or space or an opinion?
Or that it is beyond this saying & you posted it for sake of argument.

Then this saying of William Elery shows that you are the only one belonging to an inquiring age & all others are fools. Right?

Please don't use great but relative sayings of well known people for your explanation because that is what they have said & they are not coming here to answer in your position. It is very easy to copy & paste what other have said under your name.

Discuss your personal views rather. It would add more to discussion.

shivsena

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post23 Jun 2014

Save Innocents wrote:
Please don't use great but relative sayings of well known people for your explanation because that is what they have said & they are not coming here to answer in your position. It is very easy to copy & paste what other have said under your name.

So long as the absolute Truth is not revealed, everything else is an opinion. [everything includes Bks-pbks and ex. ]
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Pink Panther

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post24 Jun 2014

shivsena wrote:So long as the absolute Truth is not revealed, everything else is an opinion. [everything includes Bks-pbks and ex. ]


Q1. What is Truth?
Q2. What is Absolute Truth?

These question becomes most pertinent once it is acknowledged that ”Truth” has changed many times within the BK world, so even if it was true one day and not the next, that means it was never ”absolute".

Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post24 Jun 2014

Shivsena wrote:So long as the absolute Truth is not revealed, everything else is an opinion.

The absolute truth has been repeatedly revealed by Teerthankars, several Gyani Purush & Keval Gyanis. Now what kind of absolute truth are you talking about? The shiv-shakti relevation that you talk about is a relative truth which can take place inside your body too. And factually BKWSU have propogated a belief or opinion which neither has any experimental base or scientific proof nor any evidential infomation & yes you are still following it.

Moreover, if you would practice Patanjali Yoga for the timespan you spent in BK centers, better & subtle relevations would happen. The absolute truth cannot happen or reveal to you itself without self realization. If some Dadi Baba gets to know it, it is not going to help in your evolution. Your soul has to manifest that too in this life. Promises of next life is given to fools who accept anything without using intellect.

At least when they count themselves among 8 lucky souls, only people without self esteem can still follow them. They put themselves in front & at the top of you on your face. Even crippled have better will power & determination. You yourself possess source of infinite powers but still act like beggar for energy from BK heads. I consider BKWSU as an institute which professionally trains its followers to become beggars. Like mentor like students.
everything else is an opinion

Then you also fall in the same domain. Your very existence is an opinion. Right??

This kind of things happen when you mix relative truth with real truth. Leave aside all talks of real truth, first get relative truth in its place. The world exists & so are the living beings on it. It is not an opinion. It is an evidence. All systems whether religious, social, cultural, etc are also existing with their relevance. It is not an opinion when you talk about relative truth. Everything exists for our upliftment, & only depends on how you perceive it. The 'worldly happiness' cannot come to one who defies all existing systems. One has to be in equanimity with it. The goal of BKWSU i.e., to become God/ess is part of worldly happiness. It is not beyond it as they claim. They are going to come back again & again to live & die as per their beliefs.

The real truth that spirituality is all about is to identify one who knows everything about soul, get your self realization, become fully omniscient within few lives & get liberated from birth death cycle. That's it.

Both truths exist with their significance & you cannot say one is right & other is wrong.

Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post24 Jun 2014

Some spiritual fact:

One more absolute truth is that there is no difference in atma (Soul) or paramatma (God). Among six elements, there is only one living element which is called soul. It is one among total six elements. It exists with layers of Karma parmanoos (smallest part of matter). When self realization occurs, a hole is made in this thick layer of sheaths & inner knowledge starts manifesting. As the time passes, it goes on increasing. Upon shedding all sheaths of karma( exactly sheaths of Ghati or paap or demrit karma), the soul manifests completely with its infinite knowledge, bliss & power. Then such a soul is called God. If you shed all your karma, you will indeed become a paramatma. It is an 'open to all' thing, anyone can access it. There lies no difference between soul & god in Elemental or Absolute knowledge. There is no seventh element which you can call as living or head of all. Nature is impartial.

A 'specific power' among infinite powers of soul keeps karma matter completely separate from soul. So, the soul remains completely pure even after undergoing infinite transitions. The one who suffers in all this is ego, soul has got nothing to do with it.

This last birth in which one attains full omniscience is called Avtaar in scriptures. The body one gets in this birth is extremely powerful & possess extraordinary virtues. As one attains this state of Paramatma, after leaving mortal body, soul goes to Siddha Kshetra which is at the junction of Lok (Universe we see) & Alok (out of Universe). The Siddha Kshetra is a region independent of time & space, so sufferings or happiness leaves there forever. To reach there is precise goal of spirituality.

Discuss it if you want to come out from belief that has possessed you.
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