The difference between discussion and argument

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post24 Jun 2014

I don't think you can win in an argument between the BKs and another religious view. I don't think you can even influence them an inch. BKism is boiled down to a tiny little nutshell, there's no other space left inside it for other ideas, and then wrapped up in a hard protective coating that stops any other ideas getting in.

Only they know the truth, everyone else is deluded, all other religions are merely a partial and incorrect memory of theirs. This is the remarkable claim they make.

I don't think if you know this, how long were you involved with the BKs, SI? The BKs claim all other religions are partial and incorrect memories of their religion from 5,000 years when time and space last repeated identically. That is what BKs think and so when you start to discuss, they just switch off waiting for a moment to stick some of their religion back in you ... to correct you. Only they have a direct connection to god and all his wisdom, you see.

Put plainly, if you are not a BK, you are wrong. Basically everything you think and believe if wrong. Only their Dadis are more correct them they are. It's back to that hierarchy of rightness thing again.

But, please, I don't want to interrupt Pink Panther's simple question to Shivsena with equally unprovable "Hindu" theory ... (I use the term "Hindu" lightly in this context to mean the wisdom you mentioned which come out of India. I appreciate you might consider it Universal or Absolute).
Pink Panther wrote:Q1. What is Truth?
Q2. What is Absolute Truth?

Bloody hell, Pink Panther ... don't you get it by now?

To the Sindhis the questions were not, "What is Truth?" and "What is Absolute Truth?" ... they were, "How much money is there is talk about Truth?" and "How much of the market of Truth can we monopolise, and how?".

We may have been suckered in my our sincere desire to search for philosophical truths, they were and still are running a business. A business of Ideas, hence ... "The Knowledge™ is not just Truth, not just Absolute Truth ... but Global Supreme Absolute Truth!!!!"

"... And not 16,108 ... not 108 ... but only 8 special souls will get that! You too could be one of those special 8 souls if only you surrendered to us your mind, body and wealth!" (Spoken like a true Karachi bazaar barrow boy).

There's no profit in philosophising. None whatsoever. Indeed, there's only the risk of loss. Leave it to someone else and then asset strip all the good bits they come up with. That's the BK way.

Any ... back to Shivsena and discussing 'Truth' and the new, improved 'Absolute Truth'.

Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post24 Jun 2014

Ex I wrote:: I don't think if you know this, how long were you involved with the BKs, SI?

Not more than 1 month. But that is sufficient time to know everything about them given that one does not surrender to them & does not go there with his problems. I have experienced this clearly that there is a big block kept in their mind which blocks all their intelligence. That is why I only keep on putting facts here which are part of a real spiritual path rather than a made one. Their mind will of course, not accept this but their heart will as the spiritual knowledge has got to do with our soul & they are still stuck with mind philosophy which is much inferior.

And spirituality is not at all fully related to religion. See it is like this. If total knowledge is 100%, then the existing religions (Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, etc etc) have reached to a part of it. Some have 20% of it, some have 30% while some have disclosed 50% of whole knowledge. No religion gives full or Absolute knowledge & that is their shortcomings. But all religion lead to Absolute knowledge. They (religions ) may be considered as a first step. One should respect religions, at least, for bringing out some special feelings within us. That where it's role ends.

Spirituality offers 100% of knowledge but that to in presence of an absolute person. To know whole of 100%, one has to meet an Absolute (not this BK Shiv Baba who is not even able to extract anything out of religions for better use). An Absolute cannot only give absolute knowledge but can also turns others into an Absolute one.

I would also like to add that spirituality is a science, exact Vigyan. It has its fixed laws. One who neglects science cannot expect to make any progress in spiritual evolution too. After all faith & belief system, science gives us the exact experimental knowledge which one can demonstrate himself. BK neglecting science means they are not against it but are against the last tool which can open their eyes & bring them back to their real practical lives.
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ex-l

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post25 Jun 2014

Save Innocents wrote:Not more than 1 month. But that is sufficient time to know everything about them given that one does not surrender to them & does not go there with his problems ...

Tell us about your experience, did you just go out of curiosity?

Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post27 Jun 2014

I joined their 7 day course upon insistence from one of my close friends. And it can be called as done partially out of curiosity as after 1st lecture, I was fully thrilled about all negative things they tell everyone usually. On first day, I asked her (the Didi who was giving sermons) many questions & she was unable to answer. So, she asked me to do 7 day course first, then you will get your answers.

On the very first day, I was shocked to hear what she was telling. I mean there was no sound base & then I decided to do whole 7 days course to understand how they are fooling people. I was much pained to see the plight of people there. One thing was very clear to me that anyone who has not taken spirituality seriously ever before, will get definitely deluded by their theory with a great ease.

BK RajYoga is a form of Manoyoga which is, as advised in ancient times by yogis, to be done by focussing on a point of light. This is an ancient practice but done under guidance of a master not a fool & that too for short time period. It is, in reality, a healthy meditation practice when done for a short time period. If done for many days, months or years, it can play hell with mind (psychological imbalance being the most common effect). And then these people came with a theory to misguide further. The point of light was considered as point of light. It is object of meditation. But BK call it soul & then whole new concept of Paramdham, paramatma & so many other things have been introduced to malign the actual practice.

Overall it was a pathetic experience. A true meditator is very active but BKs appear more like morons sitting deaf & dumb in front of red light bulb. But again it is not their mistake, it is the head who is responsible for their state.
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ex-l

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post27 Jun 2014

Save Innocents wrote:BK RajYoga is a form of Manoyoga which is, as advised in ancient times by yogis, to be done by focussing on a point of light. This is an ancient practice but done under guidance of a master not a fool & that too for short time period. It is, in reality, a healthy meditation practice when done for a short time period. If done for many days, months or years, it can play hell with mind (psychological imbalance being the most common effect).

This is very useful to know ... what we have found, that the BKs don't elaborate upon to their followers in their limited "official" history, is that their guru founder medium Lekhraj Kirpalani pay a huge sum of money to some saddhu from Bengal to learn some mesmeric art ... and after receiving it, the siddhi or whatever it was, he went a little crazy and believed he was god and Krishna for over 20 years.

It's a much longer story that than ... when he returned back to the Sind and started holding seances, he and the practise had a profound effect on the mostly naive women and children who went into long trances and had fairly extreme experiences ... much moreso than the BKs tell people now. Neighbours talked about them screaming and having hysterics. But even the BKs talk about them "being possessed by deities" or going into trances and believing that they were in the Golden Age with Krishna for days at an end. Obviously the effects concerned people.

Lekhraj Kirpalani himself appeared to suffer some kind of breakdown, reduced to a child like state at time, obsessed and drawing on the walls of a family house etc.

Perhaps with your knowledge of classical Hinduism we can unpick what he was taught and by whom?

Obviously, that he paid money to learn some siddhi or power he was clearly not ready to receive is concerning enough ... that he taught it to young women and girls and built a cult surrounding him as their Krishna - and enjoy sensual pleasures of it - is worse. But them they have covered it all up and whitewashed it.

Most of their so called teachers have no idea about most of this but it's document here and there, scattered in pieces.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post27 Jun 2014

BK RajYoga is a form of Manoyoga which is , as advised in ancient times by yogis, to be done by focussing on a point of light. This is an ancient practice but done under guidance of a master not a fool & that too for short time period. It is, in reality, a healthy meditation practice when done for a short time period. If done for many days, months or years, it can play hell with mind( psychological imbalance being the most common effect). And then these people came with a theory to misguide further.

Yes, exactly! You were fortunate SI as you seem to have had more than a little study and practice in your experience before BKs and early on you were able to untangle the mix that they present as their own creation. Most people, myself included, go along to a BK RYC with small bits and pieces of ”spiritual” understanding, and we are ripe for the BKs approach because people like that are looking for something that ties the pieces together.

I was very young, and the majority of those BKs from outside India at the time were young and easily impressed by what was seen as ”glamorous exoticism” or a "romantic idealism” that was part of the new cross-cultural discovery of Indian philosophies and practices. We were convinced by this shopkeeper who had a pinch of Haldi that this was indeed the treasure store we had been (or should be) seeking.

I had dabbled before BKs in a bit of Tibetan Buddhist form of Third Eye meditation, similar to imagining light in the forehead, and had profound experiences. When I went to the BK RYC it happened again, and I saw this as a ”sign”. I think in my youthful invincibility and arrogance, I actually thought I could ”know it all” and BKism is an easy way to be a ”know it all”.

Further to your explanation of manoyoga, I came across this the other day - a lovely compilation from a number of sources as summary of talks from the late, great Alan Watts. Keep your eyes open for his use of the car/driver metaphor and who it is that dwells at the centre of the forehead, he hits the bullseye!

Save Innocents

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Re: The difference between discussion and argument

Post29 Jun 2014

Nice flick. Thanks PP for posting.

Well only motive of unearthing reality is that everyone should become aware of things which can really harm us. Any form of meditation, psychic analysis, etc ae kept to heal the wounds. Once you feel cured, leave it. If you keeping on taking medicine even after you become well, what is it going to do to your body & mind? These meditation exercises are there to cure most fatal diseases of body & mind. They give soothing effects which are hard to imagine normally. But overdose of it will separate us from practical life & will find it boring.

For example if one learns Chakra Meditation & starts getting experience of visible Chakras (in his backbone) with colored petals, with a word written on each & then a divine light ( for each chakra color changes) whose intensity rises with practice, then he is certainly going to get strongly attached to it. It gives soothing effect as long as one practices but everything comes back to same state as soon as it is stopped. So, what is its use? It is good if it keeps negativity toward others away from us. When one starts believing himself as some special being, his downfall begins. That is same with BKs. Considering themselves as some superhuman or lord is whim that will take them far away from reality & real life.
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