Anyone from Australia on here?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post09 Dec 2014

Well then, it's time to cut to the chase and find out who and what the BKs really think is god and reality, and decide whether it matches up to what you think it is.

We can suggest a few questions for you to ask.

BKism is about conforming to a very narrow selection of beliefs, all of which are very difficult to substantiate, e.g. Time being 5,000 years old, dinosaurs existing 2,500 years ago etc. I would not necessarily say sticking it out was a sign of depth nor spiritual seniority ... I'd say it was more a willingness to conform, not question and enjoy the fringe benefits it brings (like nice retreat centres and gentle people to hang out with).

No, your perception of them being void of emotion ... or rather attempting to be void or deny them ... is quite correct. Emotions may well arise in them but they are seen as Maya and an obstacle, even evil. Interpersonal stuff is taboo. Plus they don't need to explore any more ... they have "all the answers!"

The core of BKism is that the world is about to be destroyed, humanity eradicated. The number one practise is the detachment from one's body and, hence, detachment from all other bodily beings/relationships. The purpose of that, and all the sacrifices, disciplines, and lifestyle that goes along with, is to earn a high status in a future life in a heaven on earth reserved exclusively for reincarnate BKs. A high status with unlimited material wealth, servants and so on.

BKs dress themselves in the wrappings of the New Age and other spiritual tradition, they widely borrow and steal words and concepts to appear different ... to market their product. But that's the product.

Unless you can accept that god Shiva possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani and started speaking through him in 1936 ... which historically we have proven he did not and, hence, even if you are going to accept the BK version, you are then going to have to accept that historical revision and manipulating the past is acceptable ... you are jumping on the wrong conveyor belt.

You may decide you still want to head down it but if you do, we can tell you what you will find at the end and give you a few hints on how to survive and protect yourself.

Was I been serious about just hugging him ... perhaps not. I think it'd be better to goose him. I think I'll make that my motto ... "Have you goosed a BK today?". Really, I am just encouraging you to follow your own feelings and intuitions and explore their limits.

And have fun with the situation.

Be a little free.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post10 Dec 2014

Harleymachine,

I can understand that much of what ex-l says about BK beliefs may not matter to you, as much as the company you enjoy there at the BK centres and of this man especially.

Just be aware there are good people everywhere but if the basis of what they have in common is flawed, if what you want goes against that point of commonality or loyalty, the group will win. Only if the person is disenchanted and wanting out of that group do you stand a chance.

BKs' loyalty is to the practice of being BK - celibate, all relationships with One (seemingly needy) God, no attraction or attachment to human beings (You can ask to check if this is the practice of a good BK - if they are honest that will be confirmed).

All kinds of nice people come along into the BK circle for a while then move on. They enjoy each other’s company, and over time some drift away and others drift in. A BK's ego is boosted by the fact they’ve hung around longer and they gain ’seniority”.

I still get invitations to attend ”gatherings of old BKs” at a local centre, usually from some visiting dedicated BK ”senior” who has had no other life for decades, who wants to catch up with their nostalgia rather than me. I always reply, if they want to see me then let’s meet at my place or at a cafe. Only one has ever agreed and followed through. Did we have a relationship directly or did we just happen to hang out at the same place at the same time? Indeed that person was the only one of these ”visitors” who I had that direct honest relationship with and they respected that I did not want to be associated with the BK centre anymore.

My point is - kids will play with whichever kids happen to be in the playground at the time. True friendships are more than that. Any dedicated hetero- BK will be nice and friendly but will also be wary of any relationship with a member of the opposite sex. If it comes down to a choice, likely he will choose what he knows and has already invested emotionally into, the BK life.

If he chooses otherwise, unless he does that wholeheartedly, it's likely he will then go through a few years of confusion, guilt and upheaval and not be as pleasant to be around. Is that what you want to get involved with? If he chose a relationship with you ahead of BKs, he might end up very well blaming you for ”leading him away from God” and every other unhappiness or misfortune that comes his way. I am not kidding, dedicated Western BKs tend to think like medieval Roman Catholic monks and nuns!

BTW, as a P.S., if you went to Buddhist groups looking for god - that is so the wrong place! Buddhism is about the human potential and achievement of ”awakening” - self reliance.
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ex-l

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post10 Dec 2014

Pink Panther wrote:I can understand that much of what ex-l says about BK beliefs may not matter to you, as much as the company you enjoy there at the BK centres and of this man especially.

Just be aware there are good people everywhere ...

That's the way they do it, and hold people in. I spent many years beyond my 'sell by date' just hanging on because of the people I knew there.

And there aren't just good people everywhere, there are great people everywhere.

But please don't fool yourself that the BKs are about the fluff around the edges. I spent years living with/undoing the uncertainty/the futility/the doom of the imminent 'End of the World' ... which was 1986 in my day. I bet they don't tell you that. Yes, in the teaching is was specifically stated, just as 1976 was to the generations before me ... which they did not tell us about. And the 1950 before that ...

They try to blame individual BKs, or even the silly old man Lekhraj Kirpalani for making the mistakes but it came direct from their god spirit. Ask yourself would the real god really trick, lie, deceive and manipulate people into making effort or surrendering to him? And would he and his representatives really cover it all up and revision their history for decades afterwards, keeping the outer circles in the dark.

Is dark not the opposite of light?
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Harleymachine

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post10 Dec 2014

You both obviously have a lot of knowledge & experience between you & I thankyou for sharing with me. I just need to clear up that I have no intentions of ever trying to go against the grain with this guy to challenge his commitment. My smaller retreat centre here in Australia seems so different from the intensity of what I've read on this forum. From what I have seen the BK's who attend my centre are just as committed but I am not sure if what I am reading on here coincides with what you both have seen & experienced in your BK life and what I am seeing. I guess in conclusion, everyone's experiences are different and are coming from their own life experiences and cultures. As temping as it is to take on other peoples opinions base on how together they seem, I just need to focus on what works for me & not get caught up in the drama of others peoples stuff. Repectfully so : ) I will always keep my eyes open to what is going on around me and this forum has been very helpful in the flip side to the BK life. As for your comment re: Buddhism yes that's an example of what I was talking about "people" pulling me around on my spiritual journey base on their on beliefs. I just need to take a deep breath and be a big girl and walk on my own, again come back to the simplicity of trust in God & myself.
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ex-l

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post11 Dec 2014

So, "in conclusion" ... is the BK god 'your god', or God of all?

There is a little more to life than just what "works for the self". That's a kind of line the BKs use ... take what you want/what works for you etc ... but one needs to consider one's effects on others too if one lends oneself to a cause or movement.

Obviously, with regards to your acquaintance, I was having a little joke but also sharing a little truth.

But I think anyone would be doing another good to shaking them up, making them and getting them in touch with their real feelings. The example I gave you was a true story.

The real problem with the BKs is what they are really all about and how they been suck people's lives up on a series of falsehoods ... the whole End of the World scenario, mass Destruction of Humanity number. That's not open for interpretation. That's the way it is.

Even if a small self-contained retreat centre has found a better way of life for themselves ... that's still what 99% of the BKs are working for ... to quote their god, "to give courage" and inspire the scientists to use the nuclear bombs to wipe out humanity.

If you say this to a Westerner BK they might try and deny it, or offer some alternative interpretation. But those are the actual worlds and agenda of their god.

Please consider if that is really what you are signing up for because if it is not, I think you'll find being initiated into BKism will pose as an obstruction to other paths in the future. It's pretty totalistic.
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Harleymachine

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

So are you asking me to conclude with who God is? That's a big ask! lol : )

"There is a little more to life than just what "works for the self". That's a kind of line the BKs use ."

OK then...I can only speak for myself and that's me not the BK way, if others have had negative experiences I guess then it's up to them to decide whats right or wrong in their situation. No one forces anyone to be a BK it's your choice. What I have bought forward in my thread is only that I was bringing my own perception based on my own experiences into my judgement of the BK's I am dealing with. I cannot speak for anyone else as I wont let anyone else do my talking.

"The real problem with the BKs is what they are really all out and how they been suck people's lives up on a series of falsehoods ... the whole End of the World scenario, mass Destruction of Humanity number. That's not open for interpretation. That's the way it is."

Something I will ask : ) thankyou.

"Please consider if that is really what you are signing up for because if it is not, I think you'll find being initiated into BKism will pose as an obstruction to other paths in the future. It's pretty totalistic."

I have said before I am a pretty strong minded person with the luxury of a free will no one is challenging that, even if they are and I have not picked up on in due to the fluffy stuff I will respectfully cross that bridge when I get to it and make up my own mind.
I do love having these discussions though because it's fast tracking my learning experience : )
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Harleymachine

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ffj8SHrbk0

Strangely I am starting to think people here want me to see this like a Zoolander v's Mugatu situation lol
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Pink Panther

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

Never seen Zoolander, must watch it one day, it gets referred to quite a lot in pop culture.

If you ask BKs about Destruction, be aware they now use the term ”Transformation”.

When they answer with euphemisms, please ask as a follow up :
    1. So, will the ‘transformed world” be supporting a population like we have today? How many people will there be in this New Age?
    (Their God Shiva has answered very specifically 900,000 at the start of the ”Golden Age” (and 330 million at the end of the Silver Age, the equivalent of the USA’s population today.) i.e.So if they are evasive, ask them if this is true.)
    2. What happens to the rest of the 5 or 6 billion people who are alive now?
    (Answer will be something like - they will return to the peace of the Soul World/Paramdham)
    3. How does that happen? Why aren’t they reincarnated? How do they die?
    (More euphemisms)
    4. Why?
    (Drama - preordained 5000 your eternally repeating cycle, spiritual Law, the way it is)
    5. Do you have hard evidence for claiming this?
    (Direct knowledge revealed by God, science and human knowledge is flawed etc etc)
I’d be interested to know how close to the script they stick! They may just try to fob off the questions with, ”Oh that’s not what’s important, inner peace etc” but as I said earlier, the 99% of BKs believe these are important matters and can be explained, the Aussies are warier of seeming irrational or sounding like the apocalyptic cult they actually are (many BK westerners are in denial).
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Harleymachine

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

Don't get too excited about Zoolander lol it's pretty daggy : )

Wow! The above is a lot to take in, but I'll ask.

With this thread having 1850 views I'd love someone else to add their thoughts. I guess I am a lone rational Aussie on the front line lol : ).
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ex-l

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

World population is over 7 billion now, Pink ... but, yes, they all have to die so Lucky Lekhraj and Janki Dadi can go play Emperors and Empresses of Heaven on Earth, according to the god of the BKWSU.

Sorry challenge your feel good factor, Templewoodie, I can appreciate why, in the middle of a desert, the BK centre is an oasis of comforting spiritual chit chat (talking about deserts, do they have a centre in Alice Springs yet?). All I am trying to do is keep your rational mind spinning.

And please remember, our positions are not just "our" positions but over the years we have collated 100s of people's experiences.

The BK god is notoriously bad at making predictions, and then patching them up afterwards. Originally he said the world's population at Destruction was 4.5 billion ... then 5 ... then 5.5 ... now I think they've stopped revising it because it's become too patently obvious what is going on, and then tend to just laugh it off as Lekhraj Kirpalani's fault.

That's equally problematic because they also say everything Lekhraj Kirpalani said was "Shrimat" and true equal to god. Therefore the same questions arise ... why did God get it wrong when we are meant to be *both* their children. One response given was ... "oh, the extra couple of billion do not fully count as human beings, they just come "like flies" (literally)", and only one birth ever whereas good BKs have the maximum of 84.

The best Christians might only have mid-30s birth, the best Buddhist around 40 and so on. No one escaped The Cycle nor spoke to God until the end according to the BKs.
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shanti

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post12 Dec 2014

I am an Aussie who was involved as a BK many years ago. I left because I felt pressured and judged. I agree with Jann, even as you continue to attend the meditations, go deeply within. Maintain your self respect and be the observer of BK prejudices and fears. If the meditations benefit you, just take what you need and ignore the rest. BKs are nice people, but don't expect friendship. Look after yourself and have your own friends as you may need them.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post13 Dec 2014

I am aussie, I am rational (although one doesn’t always follow the other).

My experience, in short and what I am trying to get across to you, is that it was beneficial for a while, it was enjoyable, but nearly everyone stays involved way too long, well beyond the point of the benefit. I stayed at least twice as long as I should have - many years too many. It’s hard to judge that until well after.

The last period for me was mostly me not admitting to myself what needed admitting, that I had been wrong, that I had rationalised away what I otherwise knew to be true and had misdirected my life, abandoned other options in life etc all because of thinking I was only taking what I wanted, that I was maintaining my independence.

I had unknowingly transferred loyalty, faith and ego to the group (what Freud calls ”super ego), the only friendships I had were with the BKs, ... It took time and distance to see this. And conversations with others here and elsewhere to work through what had happened and how my thinking changed.

(Best advice - don’t believe everything you think, let alone what others say to think! You need less than you think!)

"Staying on too long" is largely due to the inherent teachings which, one believed, keep you involved because, *while* they are true to you, the implications are of major significance to this and ”future lives”. You are held hostage psychologically.

The BKs say God is teachign them directly, and only them, ever. If you believe it, then that has to be what you live by.

If you don’t believe it, why trust anything such a person/teaching says? I mean, I could say I am God and attract nice people around me ... not that I don't attract nice people anyway :-).

Just as a criminal blackmails you otherwise ”the kid gets it” - a life is on the line, you’d want know for sure ”the kid" had been kidnapped or was in harm’s way before changing what you normally do, surely?

Well, once you are believing a particular belief system that affects this (for sure) and future (possible) lives, then, to go against it is to risk that life. Can you believe and still be free to do what you would normally do? Why do you think the BKs you encounter don’t act normally in relationships?

Proof is the bottom line, otherwise we are susceptible to exploitation through emotions and impulses.
The most successful scams these days are those that appeal to people’s good nature and desire to help.

Even if you don’t subscribe fully to certain beliefs, and do as Shanti says, "just go for the meditation” etc they will *become* true to you more and more merely by associating with people for whom it is true.

It is called ”acculturation” - i.e. becoming part of the culture that surrounds you, like moving to a new place and ”going native” or ”when in rome do as the romans do”. Before long, like a migrant child, you are no longer identifying with your ”Father land” or your previous values but, surrounded by certain media and culture, you take the new culture on board and its who you are. You think not, but when you go back for a holiday, you realise that you are now more that than this ...

You know of the Mangrove Mountain ashram abuse revealed by the Royal Commission into child abuse this week?
Many people went there for different reasons and enjoyed the atmosphere and the community. Even if you personally do not commit any abuse, do you want to hang around with ”nice spiritual people” who also did not commit abuse but who knew of the abuses and accepted it, rationalised it because they believed the value system that tolerated the abuse - to reinforce "their personal experiences”?

The BKs have tolerated child abuse by trusted BKs and not reported it to police, and much more.
The BK teachings entrap good people just as the Yoga ashram at Mangrove Mtn did, those who believe it. And such ‘pleasant' people rationalise all the misdemeanours and crimes that happen because they don't want to be disloyal or unfaithful to their peeps, to their homies, to their chosen community.

The wolf in sheep’s clothing and the seemingly innocuous are more dangerous than the overtly nasty types.
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newlife

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post13 Dec 2014

So PP do you no longer believe in karma ... is there no cause and effect in your own personal beliefs or does the soul that performed bad actions called Jimmy Saville in this life just die and not face consequences or do you believe that he rebirths and reaps the reward of his past. From my point of view, if someone in our centre, BK or not, abused a child, I would report them.
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leonard

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post14 Dec 2014

Settling of karma is tricky thing.

BK would tell, but only in corners, that Jimmy Saville, Australian singer Rolf Harris, Adolf Hitler and all such were instruments in settling karma for other 'wrongdoers' in previous births, so therefore no judgement necessary ... Law of Karma provides automatic balance of 'good and evil.' At Destruction there will be final settling of karma for billions of humans, as PP says. Onetime American BK Robert Shubow, now called Shunyamurti, and spiritual director of Sat Yoga Ashram, Costa Rica, is giving full retreat on 'destruction/establishment' in very open way : go to http://www.satyogainstitute.org and then see 'Planetary Rebirth' retreat beginning Dec 27 2014. More open than BK.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Anyone from Australia on here?

Post14 Dec 2014

Newlife and Leonard,

This is off-topic, so if you want to reply to this post, please start a new topic.

Vedanta's karma philosophy, what BKs draw from, is absurd when examined. It is built on many a false premise, i.e. one must accept certain unproveable assumptions then one must rationalise them. There is a simplistic view of events, of ”this cause equals that effect” but reality is far more complex.

In immediate straightforward everyday terms, I think that "the fruit of karma” is simply found in the quality of one’s life experience.

Rhetorical questions:
    Is a drug addict reaping good or bad karma every time he scores a hit and gets high?
    Does a celebrity child abuser become happier by his abuse?
    Is the abuse they do, and the compulsion that drives them, not itself a sign that they are already suffering? Do they need a ”next life” to suffer more?
Isn’t modern depth psychology all about the duality (and impact of that duality) of the conscious and unconscious levels of oneself, including the psychosomatic? That is, karmic fruit is that which affects one’s psycho-emotional-somatic wellbeing, suffering manifests on some level or other in the present. And life doesn't always fit into a neat package.

Vedanta & BK karma philosophy is still essentially materialistic and quantitative (two dimensional) rather than qualitative (four dimensional) eg it thinks that social status and material prosperity is the result of virtuous life.

Also consider, if an abused person is ”clearing karma” then that person drew the abuse upon themselves. The abuser is a mere instrument and surely deserves no punishment.

Such two-dimensional logical thinking gets bogged down in prolix discursiveness, like the idea that world sits on an elephant that stands on a tortoise.

A Theosophist who took this cosmic explanation to be literally true was asked in a famous exchange (by Bertrand Russell I think), ”But what does the tortoise stand on?” to which she replied confidently ”You can’t trick me, it’s tortoises all the way down!”

BKs do not see the chain of karmic fruit going "all the way down", it has a definite start at beginning of Dwapur Yuga and definitely ends at the end of Kali Yuga when ‘all souls become karmateet and return home".

Conceptually in BK/vedanta terms, if all souls start out free of karma (karmateet) then chase the origins of a chain of events back down the "cause and effect” route and ask - what happened to set off the good karma- bad karma drama off? I’ll tell you.

Somewhere at the beginning of Dwapur Yuga, someone did something bad to someone else who didn’t deserve it.

Why? What karma motivated that bad action? It’s all nonsense, designed to justify theories of atman and caste and preserve privilege and excuse injustices, the way the church theology in medieval Europe developed to answer its inbuilt contradictions.

Robert Shubow - I knew him when he became a BK and when he left the BKs. His only real skill was as a wordsmith. He was no great thinker. Everything he did was a rehash of others’ ideas. And he learnt from a master how to apply that to creating his own empire of the ego (refer to thread ”Never build ashrams!”).

Neither he nor BKs have anything to offer that cannot find by doing one’s own study and practice. Sure, one often needs someone who has gone before to show a shortcut - but to turn it into a business?
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