Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj & BKism

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post29 May 2017

Pink Panther wrote:There are efforts within the BK world, particularly outside India, to create a BK version of Paulinist revisionism, i.e. to change the original teachings to one that's more universal, less exclusive, less ”Hindu”, less apocalyptic. The difference is, of course, that the vast majority of BKs are Indian ...

They themselves largely being brought up under Pauline Christianity, ie the ex-Catholic BKs you've mentioned before?

What do the majority of Indian BKs think of Western BKs and their revisionism?

Of course, part of that revisionism is now to accept greater truths about the real history of BKism that we have introduced into the discussion (but only so much truth as does not rock the boat enjoy to make it sink!), largely your just talking about marketing, aren't you?

Or are they seriously trying to reinvent BKism into something different ... not just to surplant BKism upon to Hinduism or Taoism but make it fit onto generally spirituality in order to bring all the new agers under their mantel too?

We often read their efforts to be seen as the "source of spirituality", or indeed how their "soul consciousness" is now re-labelled as just general purpose "spirituality".
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post29 May 2017

ex-l wrote:They [the Western revisionist BKs] themselves largely being brought up under Pauline Christianity, ie the ex-Catholic BKs you've mentioned before?

A large percentage are.
What do the majority of Indian BKs think of Western BKs and their revisionism?

I’d say any BK anywhere thinks their understanding is the correct one. Therefore most Indian BKs would see Westerners’ perspective as amusingly exotic misunderstandings of what only a true 84 birth bharatwassi can understand.
Largely you’re just talking about marketing, aren't you?

Largely, yes, but I think they do believe they understand the Gyan better, and they have become adept at rationalising the variations in "Supreme Knowledge” over time (i.e. compartmentalising, selective memory etc).
Or are they seriously trying to reinvent BKism into something different ...

Yes.
not just to surplant BKism upon to Hinduism or Taoism but make it fit onto generally spirituality in order to bring all the new agers under their mantel too?

A bit of both, to make it less embarrassing and more acceptable to the wider community, while at the same time convincing themselves of its exclusivity/superiority premised on the unbalanced lifestyle they lead, which they think proves the superiority of the committed. It’s a different form of religious penitence to prove devotion, commitment, worthiness.
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Arbit

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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

Pink Panther wrote:...while Paul’s success was found in changing the ”message”, leading to his becoming the second most important figure in Christianity ... it was Paul that really made Christianity accepting of non-Jews, and acceptable to non-Jews, by being "all things to all people” ... There are efforts within the BK world, particularly outside India, to create a BK version of Paulinist revisionism, i.e. to change the original teachings to one that's more universal, less exclusive, less ”Hindu”...

What Paul did (and modern-day evangelicals do) was to not change the core message, but to couch it in a language more accessible, familiar, and less threatening to the target audience, who have been clearly marked out for eventual cultural genocide. Evangelicals ensure that the core message, Christ's supremacy, the historicity, damnation, salvation, second coming, etc, is NEVER compromised. This is even specifically stated in their manuals.

Conversion to Christianity works in 4 stages. In the first stage, evangelicals can spend a long time, even a couple of generations, studying the victim culture. In the second stage, they wrap Christianity in aspects of victim's culture, such as rituals, clothing, certain beliefs, etc, to give an appearance that Christianity is not different. Christianity's core message may not be emphasized in initial encounters. This is used to gain trust in the beginning, and slowly, but surely, in the 3rd stage, the core of the victim's culture is replaced by the core of Christianity. Once Christianity's core is firmly planted, in the 4th stage, the victim's cultural aspects are discarded except for a few that they find useful and not against their core message, e.g. 25th December.

BKs are not this organized, calculating, or devious in their operation. After all, Christianity perfected this art over many centuries. But BKs seem to have borrowed a few ideas. They, too, do not compromise their core message: their supremacy, impending Golden Age, etc. They seem to have changed Destruction to Transformation in their message, but Destruction was not the core. So they are softening the hard edges, similar to what Paul did, and using contemporary issues to deliver their message. Eventually they may not even need Transformation.

BKs may be revising their history and delivery style, but they are not revising their core beliefs. They cannot, because that will lead to their disintegration.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

One of the few cultures to rebuff Christianity was Japan ... and it's still hard going for the BKs there today despite it being one of the first places they tried to crack.

When Xavier turn up there from India, he did exactly what you are saying, called his "Deus" "Dainichi" (Vairocana Buddha) in the hope of conning/flattering the Japanese into accept his foothold on the nation.

The Japanese were curious and polite to begin ... they understood India to be the birthplace of their Buddhism and were interested ... with but once they worked out the Christians were talking about an entirely different religion ... and were basically embarking on a 'divine and rule' strategy that include enslaving Japanese (100,000s) ... the Japanese turned around kicked them out and shut the door on them for 250 years. "Deusu" became "Daiuso" (Japanese for "the Great Lie"). Since he had come from India, it is likely that people took the Jesuits to be preachers of some eccentric form of Buddhism ... just as the BKs are prone to sell themselves as some eccentric form of Hinduism.

Sadly India did not manage to do the same (too big a border/land to defend) ... the NE of it, right now, is under an onslaught from American Christian evangelists destroying indigenous culture ... and few to no places, including even Islamic nations, have cottoned on to what the BKs are up to.

Secular France and Russia/East Europe gave them a little bit of a hard time but they held on and suck up to power.

Again, I think what you are saying fits well in the case of the BKs, e.g. "to give an appearance that Christianity is not different ... to give an appearance that BKism is not different" emphasis on "appearance".

The Sindhis (pre-BKs) went out and explored the British Empire and exploited it to set up their own trading networks within it.

The BKs then did the same to the Sindhi diaspora ... they expanded along already established Sindhi networks and upon already established Sindhi roots in foreign countries. It's part of the international, entrpreneurial Sindhi culture, an extension of a Sindhi approach.

I think to understand BKism, one needs to spend a few minutes understanding its roots in the quite specific Sindhi Bhaibund culture.

Hinduism ... Christianity ... Daoism ... you name it ... it's just someone else's goods to be bought cheap, polished up, cherry picked for the best bits and sold high. It's how they started their empire and how the BKs went on, from trading goods to trading ideas; and like good traders, they'll keep changing the product line to suit the market ... a bit of Hinduism ... a bit of Christianity or Daoism there.

Whatever sells. Whatever people are buying, e.g. Brahma Kumaris Shivani doing an "Oprah Winfrey" Lite series about relationship issues.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

I agree with most of your post ex-l, a rare occurrence!

Excellent example of Japan. The Japanese were also smart enough to keep Islam out.

Great summary of what is happening in NE India.

Also, good observation about BK's spread from the Sindhi community.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

Arbit wrote:BKs may be revising their history and delivery style, but they are not revising their core beliefs.

As per my last post, that is true where there is a dominant Indian population - including the UK, but those countries where there is less Indian influence - Australia, the Americas, continental Europe - they would love to ditch much of the ”core” beliefs.
They cannot, because that will lead to their disintegration.

Yes, fully agree, it's what I call their product differentiation. That said, it may lead to a broader appeal and more bums on seats especially outside India, but would it then be ”BK” in name only?
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

Arbit wrote:I agree with most of your post ex-l, a rare occurrence!

The truth should always rises above all divisions ...

I suggest, from the Sakar Murlis, that part of their core sentiments ... and I mean the core sentiments of the core group within BKism (I always separate the leaders or BKs from their adherents or followers) ... is even deeply condescending, manipulative and contemptuous towards "Indians" or "Hindus".

Again, a grosser exaggerations of the relationship between these/those Sindhis (the Bhaibunds) and Indian Hindus as a whole. Remember the old Gujerati saying, "if you meet a Sindhi and a cobra on the road, kill the Sindhi first".

Generally, generalisations and even prejudices have some reason and truth within them. The background to that sentiment above (and it really only applies to the Sindhi merchants first and foremost, obviously they had their scholars and saints too), lies in their attitude and relationship to Indian Hindus ... which is a different topic but related to their attitude towards Christians and Christianity.

These carpetbagger merchants did not produce anything of their own. They were entrepreneurs (literally, "take from inbetween"). They took the crafts produced in one area by other tribes, sold them at a profit to others, and increased profits by avoid paying taxes as much as possible.

What a better way to avoid paying taxes than starting a religion or "charity" in order to to 'serve oneself', e.g. the British BKWSU sending back £500,000 per year to the Indian BK headquarters to do what ... while magically not paying their jet setting British leaders any wages (I wonder where they get their money?).

In my analysis, the Sindhis BK just evolved from trading in others' trinkets, to trading the trinkets of other people's religions and philosophies.

Look at the gross contempt for Christians and Hindus contained within the Sakar Murlis and other original documents that ... allegedly ... "God" was supposed to spout.

It's a mixture of ignorance (at what those societies were/had achieved), jealousy and hate ... but not bad enough to stop them trading in their icons and ideas.

Of course, now the problem is most of the "original Sindhi Jewels" have died off and their influence is waning. The form still exists, and much of their attitude, but their empire is not being over run by Hindus and Christians turning BKism back into their original religions .. and I don't mean the "deity religion".

BKism *hugely* ripped off Krishnaism elevativing its business man god to god Krishna (and god Brahma) status. Perhaps what Christianity begged/borrowed/stole from Vendanta/Krishna worship - and which way the influence went - is a whole other discussion.

From: "Christian Elements In Later Krishnaism And In Other Hinduistic Sects" by Lydia G. Robinson
On the other hand, there exists between Christianity and Krishna-ism an intrinsic relationship which explains the susceptibility of the latter to Christian influences.

Meanwhile, all over India today ... "Hare Krishna ... Hare Krishna ... Hare Krishna ... Rama Rama Rama ... Oh, hold on, it's the BKs! I am confused"

I am confused? The BKs are both confused and confusing of others ... confusing others in order to control and exploit them. Borrowing from others' religion, philosophy, even businessspeak, to use their memes as hooks in order to reel them in.

BK-Hare_Krishna.jpg
Hare Krishna ... Hare Krishna ... Hare Krishna ... Rama Rama Rama ... oh, hold on, it's the BKs! I am confused!
BK-Hare_Krishna.jpg (94.39 KiB) Viewed 1135 times
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post30 May 2017

Something else the Christians learned in the Far East was that the maintenance of the religion depended on the activity of the indigenous priests, hence the ordinations of natives were increased. So too with the BKs and their early "blue eyed, blond haired dolls (both male and female).

The only difference is that, in the case of the Jesuits, they would often return disguised as merchants; whereas, in the case of the BKs, the merchants would return disguised as "yogis".

Clergy and traders went hand in hand. One following the other.

We could examine just how over a historical timeline and see how it matches with the BK timeline, e.g. how long between "giving everything for free" and starting to sell products and fiefdoms.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post16 Jun 2017

I have tried to tabulate the similarities between Christianity and BK philosophy, and contrasted them with Hinduism.
I am happy to make changes if anyone spots issues or provides more suggestions. I will attribute the contribution.
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BKvsChristianity.pdf
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post17 Jun 2017

“All religions serve the same purpose. The end of religion is happiness, and one should pick the religion that makes him feel the most happy. Religion is a tool to better society, to inspire virtuous behavior so that we all get along.”


dc045b2a9df47d8ac55878c479862355.jpg


IMG_20170617_151048.jpg
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post17 Jun 2017

Fearless.soul wrote:“All religions serve the same purpose. The end of religion is happiness, and one should pick the religion that makes him feel the most happy.”

This is a naive view of religions. You'll seldom hear adherents of Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) say this, unless they are trying to proselytize, because they know their own religion well (for a number of reasons) and are aware of differences with other religions.

Non-Abrahamic religions, particularly Hinduism, fall in this "sameness" trap (for several reasons), much to their detriment, as history shows and continues to show.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post17 Jun 2017

Fearless.soul wrote:“All religions serve the same purpose ..."

I do not know but largely they are all tools of imperialism and often supressive social control.

Even dear, sweet, old Buddhism (think Tibet, Ashoka and WWII Japan).

But let's keep on topic here ... thanks. Start a new topic for a new topic.

I don't wish to offend you personally at this time but I think all religions suck now. One you have had a bad cult experiences, or witness a succession of bad cults experiences with the Brahma Kumaris, you begin to see how all religions follow the same patterns and become jaded by the idea.

The BKs are all over the "interfaith world". They are not just infiltrating it, they are taking positions of influence and control within it. At first they sought acceptability ... to re-position themselves as an authentic religion instead of a cult. By now they've learned how to make all the right noises, say the right things, act in a non-confrontational or "royal" manner. They borrowed from what they've seen and heard.

Even in Islamic countries.

It's an old Sindhi principle ... "being like the sugar in the milk".
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj

Post21 Jun 2017

I was reading the piece you wrote. This is not "correction" but discussion. Overall I think it is very good, clear and helpful.

A couple of questions though.

It's strange but I am so far out of religion now - and have seen such cynical abuse of such language by the BKs for so long - that I really don't know what words like "transcendental" and "immanent" mean any more. "Spiritual" for me is just a cynical marketing ploy, a lifestyle market for books and DVDs and comfortable retreats for middle classes.

I am also not quite sure what Christianity teaches these days. It's quite varied. For the most part, I just see it as a tool of murderous imperialism; first at the hands Spanish and Portuguese, then the British, now clueless American missionaries in what far flung developing regions are left to conquerer (in India etc).

You write that God is "transcendental" and "immanent". More simply, he was apparently reduced also to a man. Jesus, in the case of Christianity, and Lekhraj in the case of the BKs. And, we know know that for the first 20 odd years of the BKs, they thought he was god, their divine Father, and they were experiencing a life like the early Christians.

I never quite understood the "3 in 1" element of Christianity. To me, it always felt an inaccurate blurring. I think there are stronger similarities borrowed in BKism with the creation/adoption of Shiva post-1956 being inside Lekhraj Kirpalani at all times and then the ascended "holy ghost" Lekhraj Kirpalani in the Subtle Regions.

Secondly, I think there is a imstake where you say, "There is one central place of knowledge and control (Vatican)". Clearly the Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Coptics, and all the 10,000 independents churches would not agree with that.

Neither would the PBKs who have been caste in the "Protestant" mode within BKism.

The central control of Mt. Abu might be true but other influences exist, including ourselves here. I wish I knew more about the power politics of BKism. I wish insiders would speak about it and document it, eg how Jayanti and Janki in the West relate, how high up "Empresses" like Mohini (USA), Vedanti (Africa) and the woman/Charlie in Australia. What the lay of the land within India is.

True, BKism is a more like the Roman Empire in this aspect. Can we say it is going through its "Reformation" (lit. Renewal) yet? What the Catholics called the "Protestant Revolt" and to which Roman Catholic Church responded first with a war.

It started as a criticizism of the corruption of the clergy as I suppose, to some extent, PBKism or we did.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj & BKism

Post21 Jun 2017

”Transcendental” and ”Immanent” are contradictory terms.

”Transcendental” means ”not here” that is, beyond, above - etymologically means ”climbing over”.

”Immanent” means ”within” or ”pervading each and everything" - or - ”here, there and everywhere, within and without”.

To see God as transcendent falls under one aspect of dualism (here v there) but God as Immanent would fall under monist, or non-dualist, or pantheist, in the spirit of Spinoza.
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Re: Influence of Christianity on Dada Lekhraj & BKism

Post23 Jun 2017

I never really understood the "Jesus is God" line in Christianity, or the Trinity. As a kid I could get the "God in Heaven" idea but not that Jesus (the son) was also God, "God becoming man" - an essential defining doctrine of the faith.

But now we've discovered that there was no "God in Heaven" for the Brahma Kumaris for their first 20 odd years, and Lekhraj Kirpalani was their god, god Father and so on, I can see how such ideas arise as compromises trying to weave together all different parts of their stories and as an attempt at appeasing all different parts of the religion.
    "Yes, it's that, and that, and it's that too".

    "But that does not makes sense".

    "Ah, but God is mysterious and you are just a human being, how can you understand him?"
Also in the document, "History of Jesus Christ is key to the legitimacy of the faith" verus "History of Lekhraj Kripalani is important for the legitimacy of BK knowledge".

Yes, both of these are true, however, we have to define it further and say ... the mythological histories, or the officially sanctioned histories, of Jesus Christ and Lekhraj Kripalani are important for the legitimacy.

Not the actual true ones that raise serious questions and contradict the official version.
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