Karma

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

shivshankar wrote:You know law of thermodynamics? This is the same. The difference is that the energy is of another nature.

Garbage.

Bearing in mind, folks, that "shivshankar" is God speaking through his new Chariot of BK Dimok, I think what he means are the "Laws of Motion" ... specifically the 'Third Law of Motion' ... not the "law [sister in charge] of thermodynamics" as he writes. There are, of course, 3 Laws of Thermodynamics and a possible fourth (Onsager reciprocal relations) but this is par for the course from the best of the BKWSU ...

The difference between any of the scientific laws that the New Age has poetically grasped a hold of, like survivors of a sunken ship to a lifebelt, is that the scientific laws can be expressed in an equation and can be replicated any where and any time identically. This is why they are a Law and not a theory. It is also know through what medium they act and by what mechanics.

There is no "Law of Karma". No one in over two years of reading this forum has bee able to explain how and why it works ... and why it does not work. No one in the 70 years of the BKWS so-called University has put forward a theory to explain it.

The entire theory and discussion, the keystone of BK life, remains purely at the level of superstition and mind control equivalent to "bogey men" for children.

Newton's First Law of Motion:

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.
This we recognize as essentially Galileo's concept of inertia, and this is often termed simply the "Law of Inertia".

Newton's Second Law of Motion:

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.
This is the most powerful of Newton's three Laws, because it allows quantitative calculations of dynamics: how do velocities change when forces are applied. Notice the fundamental difference between Newton's 2nd Law and the dynamics of Aristotle: according to Newton, a force causes only a change in velocity (an acceleration); it does not maintain the velocity as Aristotle held.

Newton's Third Law of Motion:

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

What the last means is that if we step off a boat onto a harbour, as we push our weight towards the harbour, the boat tends to move in the opposite direction.

It does not equate at all to, "if we smack a kid, we have to be reborn again so that kid can smack us back as our parent" nor "if we are sexually abuse at the BKWSU headquarters, that means we must have sexually abuse someone else in our past life".

If you think it does ... please explain how.
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Mr Green

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Yes, I agree. There is no Law of Karma ... how can there be?

It is just control mechanism. It is literally do what we say or you will suffer.
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shivshankar

working towards unification

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

ex-l wrote:Newton's Third Law of Motion: III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Yes, you are right. I had meant this law. So what's the problem? When you perform an action you receive reaction. You also can receive reaction after some time if the object which is influenced by you has some inertia, elasticity (this one doesn't know proper word). The same is with Karma. Karma translates as an action. There are different types of action. There are two main types of action: material and fine.

For example, you punch somebody by your hand. You perform two types of action:

    1) material - making damage to his body,
    2) fine - making damage to his emotions (pain).
In the first case, reaction is some small damage to your hand. In second case, reaction will come later because emotions are another level of material world (one of the fine levels) which are more elastic.

OK, it is wasteful of time to explain something here, because this one doesn't know English well. Translator is necessary. All this issues will be explained in details as I'll get good one.

bansy

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Well does the Law of Karma or for that matter the Law of Dynamics exist in Paramdham ?

There is one law that works and that is Murphy's Law : When you drop a slice of butter toast, it always lands on the buttered side. The resulting karma has a direct correlation ratio relative to the sticky density of the butter used (e,g, if it is crunchy or smooth peanut butter, or simply strawberry jam or low fat margarine), the thickness of the slice, whether it is white, brown or rye, and the thickness and price per meter of the carpet, and the karma exponentially increases when you do it at a friend's or your mom's home. Give it a go this weekend. Or try it out also the next time you arrive in Paramdham :D

bkti-pit

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

ex-l wrote: "If we smack a kid, we have to be reborn again so that kid can smack us back as our parent" nor "if we are sexually abuse at the BKWSU headquarters, that means we must have sexually abuse someone else in our past life".

It is a shame that an organization, that pretends to be an university, promotes this kind of over simplistic thinking and that supposedly spiritually enlightened people use science to try prove their theories whilst having no understanding whatsoever of the scientific law they are referring to.

I would like to point out though that, although Baba himself gives such simplistic examples of the so called "Law of Karma" in the Murlis, such as if one gives donation to build an hospital in one birth that one will have good health in the next birth - correct me if I am wrong - I do not remember him using the expression "Law of Karma" but rather "philosophy of Karma": "Understand the deep philosophy of Karma".

I would say that there are many ways to look at it.

Most will agree that whatever we do, say or think will have a major impact on our life. If I am dishonest, arrogant and selfish, it will definitely impact my interactions with others in a different way than if I am honest, humble and generous. Which do I prefer? Which will ultimately bring me true happiness? How does it affect the way I feel about myself and how does it affect my health?

Our mental habits, our emotional habits, our eating habits ... all impact our life and I believe that to some extent they can be changed and our life improved. Now, one thing is to really change and the other is to suppress and fool oneself ...

One way in which my years as a BK have been beneficial to me, is the strengthening of my conscience and the understanding that one of the most important aspect of the Karma philosophy for me is that I must follow my conscience in order to feel whole and satisfied. It also helped me to increase my capacity to have genuine love from the heart for everyone and this feels really good inside and makes my life easier.

Although I never looked into scientific studies of the influence of the psyche on the body, I think it is well known.

I would not say it is always the case but I know people who could link their cancer to feelings of deep sorrow about their life and somehow unconsciously wanting to avoid life in order to avoid pain. I know others who had serious accidents seemingly resulting from the same type of feelings. I had a very interesting experience with my own son that could illustrate that. I'll try to share it someday when I have more time.

For many years I personally had serious back problems that were keeping me in bed for months. In my late thirties my orthopedist told me that I had osteoarthritis in my spine and that nothing could be done about it. Well, twenty years later I am doing fine and have been so for the last 15 years. Although I can not prove it, I believe that it is a reflection of the inner emotional healing that I experienced through my practice of meditation.

I also had a serious injury a few years ago, a few days after I read the whole E. Romain expose of the child abuse case and his attempt to get the BKWSU to adopt a proper child protection policy. I was in a state of total shock and felt absolutely disgusted by the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the BK hierarchy. It was not the first time that I had been exposed to the true nature of our leadership but it was definitely the most shocking. And it happened at a time when I was already seriously considering stepping out from my present role within the organization.

At that point I had no clue of the extent of the lies that we had been told about the true history of the organization and, based on my experience, I had no reason to doubt that God was the source of this "knowledge". I was thus totally split between what I saw as my commitment to God and my conscience refusing to support the wrong doings of the leadership, and I could not figure out how to position myself internally to make peace with it.

I felt betrayed that I had given my life to this and that this is what they were doing with it! How could I feel that I belonged to something like that? But I was too confused by the whole thing to be able to take a decision. When I accidentally injured myself, whilst going through this state of confusion, I immediately connected the two together: I needed a break from the whole thing, time and space to recover my inner equilibrium. But since I would not make the move out of my own conscious will, my sub-conscious took over and somehow created the incident, which forced me to go back to my home country for a while to get medical treatment.

It is not something that I can prove or explain scientifically, and you may wish to word it differently, but I assume that some of you can relate with my experience.

So, was it bad karma? Although I remain with a permanent handicap, I personally took a lot of benefit from the whole experience and saw it as a gift and as such I would not call it bad.
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dilaram

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Great stuff this and i don't feel there are two many conflicting aspects to this and my understanding of Raj Yoga at least.
paulkershaw wrote:The Intellect, the Conscious Mind, believes it is the problem solver. That it controls what happens and what is experienced. In his book User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down To Size, science journalist Tor Norretranders paints a different picture of Consciousness. He cites research studies, particularly those of Professor Benjamin Libet of the University of California at San Francisco, that show that decisions are made before Consciousness makes them. And that the
Intellect is not aware of this, believing that it decides.

Norretranders also cites research that show that the Intellect is only conscious of between fifteen to twenty bits of information per second out of millions in reaction below its awareness! If not the Intellect, Consciousness, then who’s in charge? 8 February 2005 Memories replaying dictate what the Subconscious Mind experiences. The Subconscious Mind experiences vicariously, mimicking, echoing memories replaying. It behaves, sees, feels, and decides exactly as memories dictate. The Conscious Mind too operates, without its awareness, by memories replaying. They dictate what it experiences as research studies show.

RE: "They teach that the physical world is result of the conscious mind, but this is fairly mainstream thinking in esoteric teachings these days".

In my experience, many are now aware of this in a lokik sense from the "What the bleep" discussions, specifically when tests were done with a subject watching multiple varying images via a TV screen. When a distasteful or viscerally stimulating image was about to be projected the subjects would actually respond physically before the image was screened. This suggests the Trikaldarshi remembering as of course the subject has been viewing the image at that moment for all eternity.

This seems very logical to me again in a Gyani way. The whole offer to me from Baba is to pull us away from being cognitive of our consciousness and sub-consciousness and most importantly it's relationship to the collective consciousness of all souls. In this way rather than us acting or reacting to either the ego or the Id, Baba can perform only beneficial vibrations thoughts; so then also pure very beneficial actions (sukarma), which may be exponentially negating further negative connections that would have ensued. We have our conscious mind, in terms of simplistic negative dendrite patterns to burn away (food, sex, tactile desires), and then there are the vast intellectual subconscious patterns, (royal Maya, injustice, anger etc) we will also react too unless we stay in the higher consciousness Baba pulls us too.

However, we consider these dynamics of drama, as We are the first to influence each other and all non-human matter etc. We are eternally in a structured entropic cascade issuing from a perfect and unblemished Eden. Therefore first souls to be crowned it's master, will naturally be the ones who Baba does the most through because they start the highest and fall the lowest.

So did Brahma Baba make himself the diamond merchant from the urchin ? Did Baba make Him the diamond merchant? Or was it just in the script ?

To me, Baba is Gyan Ishwar (God of all knowledge) sometimes known as Ganesha ... so Baba sermonises he does not influence as such. So how does it work ? Well naturally i can only offer my own sharing of an example. I mentioned in an earlier post Baba/BapDada told me I am the instrument to bring the end sooner. How does that play out then? Well I feel it's just my Sanskaras.

What I mean is when I read in the Murli, a Sakar from the sixties I think, with Baba/BapDada saying things like, "you had so many meetings exhibitions and seminars, but you did them according to what the people wanted, so they said what you did was good but they stayed where the were" and "so now it is time to drop the Godly bomb an your own stage, let their head spin about what you are saying". For me, I have no compunction in telling anyone that wants to know as much Gyan, being as much as an Alokik instrument in accordance with Baba's instructions and hopefully not 36 varieties of food when they only wanted a drink. To me, the most important part of this glorious Diamond age is to know Baba as Baba truly is. Therefore, the best way to do that logically is to want what Baba wants, to help as many as possible as soon as possible, in accord with their own desires.

It's that Janijananhar/Antariani thing. He does not know what we think moment by moment, but the more we follow the recipe for His introduction, be it to another soul or the elements, the more we are in sync with what the laws of the Universe that allow Baba to do ... Bingo the light comes through the white hole and the rubbish disappears down the black hole!

So, in a practical way for instance, we meet a Brother or Sister and we have millions of thoughts words deeds and actions from other parts of The Cycle waiting to be remembered. Those might be satopradhan Maya or revolting Ravanna but there is only One way not to be pulled back into the vibrational echo (in a quantum way); just a plain old, "wow I love him/her" or a "yeuk !" type feeling. Of course, if we do not stay with Baba and re-visit the energy of past relationship, thereby continuing the karmic account, the likelihood of sharing of the experience (gossip etc), then compounds the account.
It is essential to realize that the Soul does not generate experiences of its own. That it sees as memories see; feels as memories feel; behaves as memories behave, and decides as memories decide. Or, rarely, it sees, feels, behaves and decides as Inspiration sees, feels, behaves and decides! It is crucial in problem solving to realize that the body and the world are not the problems in and of themselves but the effects, the consequences, of memories replaying in the Subconscious Mind! Who’s in charge?

What is perhaps most crucial to consider is the only prolem to solve is thinking there is a problem ... Perhaps, Alice, if we look far enough down the rabbit hole, through the looking glass, we will see there are no more problems to solve ... so long as we don't see them!!!

So, like my dear Brother has said, enjoy the difference ... or see the similarities, either way such looking would doubtless come under the akarma category ... or just let Baba show you sooner rather than later how you use your specialities as much as you did last time!!! Personally, I prefer Sukarma to Akarma or vikarma ... but then that's just me!

Om Shanti & lot's and lot's of Godly love. My hope is we all remember asap that happiness is the golden key & the bottom line is ... no doubt ! ;).

john morgan

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

The notion of karma is very helpful for me. An untoward situation occurs and facing it with deep faith in karma enables me accept and to make the best of it. There is no question of blame, just a very practical and empowering "can do" state of being. Gardens are consciously cultivated otherwise weeds become rife.
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shivshankar

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

bansy wrote:Well does the Law of Karma or for that matter the Law of Dynamics exist in Paramdham ?

There are no material laws in Paramdham. Karma is material law, despite it is fine law.
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dilaram

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Yes, true, the laws are not applicable to Paramdham. But they still exist and may therefore be said to be latent within the soul residing within Paramdham, no?
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

bkti-pit wrote:I also had a serious injury a few years ago, a few days after I read the whole E. Romain expose of the child abuse case and his attempt to get the BKWSU to adopt a proper child protection policy. I was in a state of total shock and felt absolutely disgusted by the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the BK hierarchy ... At that point I had no clue of the extent of the lies that we had been told about the true history of the organization and, based on my experience, I had no reason to doubt that God was the source of this "knowledge". I was thus totally split between what I saw as my commitment to God and my conscience refusing to support the wrong doings of the leadership, and I could not figure out how to position myself internally to make peace with it.

I am really sorry that you had to suffer so much, touched and humbled by such sincerity from within the organization. I have never doubted there are good people within it ... I just always count not work out why the callous and idiotic others, the frauds, were left to run amok through people's lives encouraging even more callousness and idiocy.

I genuinely respect each and every BK and PBK that have come on this forum ... even those I have rightly (or less of a case wrongly) knocked heads. But I know that place of shock and utter spiritual disorientation that you are talking off. Its far worse than, for example, the discovery of a lover being unfaithful. All I can say to that is who you will become again once you come out of it will be far more than who you were before you went into it. It is not a death of faith but yet another rebirth to true, light and a greater self.

I would be absolutely wrong of me to deny all the indications that your others are pointing ... but, of course, they are not the unspoken "Laws of Karma". And I think that BKti-pit is correct when they say that the idea does not come from Murli but has been imported in as good Bhakti and good for business on all levels ... from egotism (look at me, I am the all knowing guru and know all the New Age ideas) right down to "the give us your money and we will wash your dodgy tax and conscience karma off" type of service the BKWSU offers mainly to its Hindu followers.

A few thinkers are questioning "Social Karma which is what a few are bringing up; a blend of sociology, psychology and common sense. But those are not mechanical "laws" such as the Laws of Motion. May be we should send the Seniors to science night classes?

Individuals are mistaking poetic analogies and the metaphor, as well as the chest puffing from pseudo-intellectuals, with reality.

    So ... 70 years on, very many multi-millions of dollar and more than a few business class airfares later ... where are the research papers from the so called "Spiritual University".
Its a bit of a joke but the BKWSU (UK) was actually founded as a charity on the basis that it would publish its research findings from time to time.

What has it discovered to explain the limitations and mechanics of karma ... even to the extent of its psycho-sociological experiment in milieu control? How can it be the inspiration for Buddhistic and Advaitist karma philosophy when both Buddhist and Advaitist karma philosophy, not so say "What the Bleep?" is much further developed? So how does your Baba really "remove" your "bad karma"? ... but where is that "karma" and how does it mechanically effect the real world?

    But if we accept "Laws of Karma" exists ... what karma does lying about God bring?
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shivshankar

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

dilaram wrote:Yes, true, the laws are not applicable to Paramdham. But they still exist and may therefore be said to be latent within the soul residing within Paramdham, no?

Laws of material world are not in the soul. Soul comes under influence of them when takes birth in material body.
ex-l wrote:So how does your Baba really "remove" your "bad karma"?

I do not remove bad karma. I remove the habit to do bad actions (karma).
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Speak of the devil ... You are not God, Shivsankar nor is he speaking or typing through you.
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shivshankar

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Re: Karma

Post15 Oct 2008

Boo:).
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post21 Feb 2009

I just wanted to re-vitalise this topic ... again ... now that the forum is freed of much of its burden and in the light of recent discussion.

From the topic, Hi - I am a newcomer and want help with my relationship
sukhi wrote:I have started convincing my self on this but still need some more light and thoughts on - that GOD will not punish me and will understand me for who I am.

I keep asking these same questions. I do not want to know what the theory is ... but what is the "mechanism" ... or the medium through which "karma" theory acts?

Individuals live their lives with a cloud hanging over them called "karma". Karma is not Newton's Laws. Karma is not a scientific law at the mechanical level of nature. We all know what the theory is ... but what is the mechanism or the medium through which it works?

Say making love is "bad karma". How does that "bad karma" come back to you? In two ways, a) how does it mechanically return through the physical universe to cause you sorrow and, b) what return exactly does it have?

How "bad" a karma is it ... bad as speeding in your car ... cheating your taxes ... hitting a kid ... a BK Senior Sister taking a property off a follower ... gassing the Jews ... invading Iraq? I mean, let us know on a scale of 1 to 100 how good and bad it is and what return specifically it is going to bring us. Give us a reliable scale of karmas, good and bad, so we can juggle our account, please.

OK, let's say it is "bad karma" and it will "come back" (which no one in 13 pages so far has been able to explain how yet) ... well, there are a lot people making love tonight. Are they all going to have an identical "bad" reward? If not, why not? Surely every reaction has an opposite and equal reaction and so love making must have too ... can anyone tell me what it is? If not, how do "karmas" add up, mutate, where are they stored whilst we wait for them to come back and get us?

Sounds ridiculous? Yes, I thought so too.

Is good sex worth more or less karma than bad sex? I only asked because some "Shrimat" (highest level of Baba's advice the same as medieval "indulgences"), has been given that although the wife just lies there and does not enjoy the sex, then she does not experience the bad karma. Is that not bad enough karma to have to experience!?!

An entire religion based on karma and no one knows how it actually works ... Used at the level of superstition, a bogey man, to control people's minds, lives and relationships ... to stop them making bonds or relationships beyond the BKWSU ... ultimately to stop them having children who might compete with the BKWSU for attention, maintenance and your inheritance. Yes, back to those whory old bitches again ... money and property.

I am not necessarily saying there is no such thing as "karma" ... I am just asking what do we really, specifically know about it? Nothing?
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frisbee

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Re: Karma

Post21 Feb 2009

"there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so"

"it is better to make a mistake with the full force of your being than to timidly avoid mistakes with a trembling spirit"
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