Karma

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Terry

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

Is satire dead?

How could you take what I wrote seriously Bansy? I was showing you can explain any event in any way you like. As long as you pad it out enough, it can start to sound cohesive. I even put my tongue firmly in my cheek further on to make that obvious.

Law of action in yogic terms is simple. Whether it is breathing, sitting, sh*tting or running an empire - when you do anything, do it properly - or you'll regret it. That's it.

Spinning that out into a sophist's web of self serving morality and cosmology is to catch the gormless, make them someone's meal ticket.

ex-l's contribution to this is (correct me if wrong) - if you are going to use karma as some kind of catch-all then please explain it in in full. I'd like to think my contribution here is the converse of that, and complimentary - a reduction to one simple, commonsense, undeniable fact - what we do affects who we are. The rest is spin.

Mr Green's "bollocks" is very effective. Most BKs and some ex-BKs still hold a reverential attitude to the emperor's illusory clothes. Sometimes they need to hear someone just say "bollocks" to break the spell. Especially if satire gets lost in the crowd. Nuff said.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

cypress wrote:What about the people who do not have money to give? Are they doomed to a lower place on the heavenly, as well as worldly scale?

We had a "semi-official" and representative answer for that from 'mitra' who was also the moderator of the BKWSU Australia's own discussion forum.

There was a gifted young woman called Radhi Pokardas Rajwani who replaced Lekhraj Kirpalani's wife as his working partner and was named Om Radhe. The BKWSU claimed that she is "Eve" (literally) and will take rebirth as Radhe (the number one Hindu god Krishna's girlfriend) and then marry Lekhraj Kirpalani in his future life as that god to become "Empress Lakshmi" (named after the Hindu goddess of knowledge).

She entered the BKWSU/Lekhraj Kirpalani entourage with no money and is, yet, claimed to have risen to the rank of number 2 human being ever, the "mother of humanity" and the first empress of the highest Golden Age.

What mitra said, which reflects a "semi-official" position is that Radhi Pokardas Rajwani had do die in order that she returns "to do service via money". They said that, as "Om Radhe", she had fulfilled the requirements of the "subjects" of "service by mind, service by knowledge, service by body" etc but that she had to come back to fulfil the final subject of "service by money" by giving wealth to the BKWSU.

Rajwanis death, bloated by fat and then by cancer, in 1965 was a huge shock to the movement who was told by their god etc that she would be with them until the end. Then they were told that she would take rebirth in a royal family (speculation generally being Nepalese as it was the last "empire/kingdom" ... before some madcap, druggie prince shot them all to bits with semi-automatic weapons) and come back to lead "The Advance Party" who would physically rebuild Heaven on Earth for the reincarnating BKs.

The more you get into it, the more screwed it becomes ...

Just to answer an earlier question. No, I cannot recollect right now if either the child sex abuses at Madhuban, or Dawn Griggs's ghastly rape and murder, were specifically refered to as "good fortune" because the karmic accounts were cleared even better BECAUSE the bad karma happened on pilgrimage to where God incarnates (according to the BKWSU).

CERTAINLY the child sex abuse was looked upon and refered to a repayment of the child's bad actions, ipso facto that the victim had been a sex abuser in their previous life. That is entirely congruent with BKWSU's Hindu school of thought. Imagine that ... a child victim being looked upon as a sex abuser by "enlightened" people. The mother sharing in that bad karma/association.

What I am doing is applying a principle that I MOST CERTAINLY heard in the BKWSU ... that to experience bad luck on the way to Mount Abu, Madhuban, whilst doing service etc was "good luck" because it meant an even strong purification or paying off of a bad karmic account.

The point I am attempting to make is that if a principle or Law of Karma applies, then it applies universally. You cannot claim the "bad karma" of getting sick at Madhuban is good luck but the "bad karma" of being sexually abuse is not. In the same way, you cannot claim that your mother suffered in a car crash because of her "bad karma" but then deny that you believe the Jews suffered the Holocaust because of their own evil or sin (... as a BKWSU representative is quoted by a national newspaper as saying).

Of course, this is all superstitious straight out of medieval Hinduism where, for example, it is "good luck" to be crushed to death at Kumbh Mela (huge religious rally) or under the wheels of a huge rolling temple (Juggernath) and a sure manner in which to be reborn in heaven. Indeed, it even used to be a regular manner for unwanted or widowed Indian women etc to commit suicide.

So, where are we ... can any BK type explain the mechanics ... and limitations ... of Karma? How does it cause illness but not sex abuse of children ... how does it affect Hindus but not Jews etc?

A "Law" is a clearly stated, universal and provable principle. It is said, "The Law of Karma" not the "The Notion of Karma" (the latter might be more honest and accurate).


There is no such thing as the Law of Karma. Any principles that there may be at the mechanical, quantum or whatever other level there exits ... are thick with a base curry stew of Hindu mental and social conditioning, unchecked superstition and outright manipulation.

Terry

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

I remember a Q&A session in London with DJ & JB discussing karma and the Jewish Holocaust. Believe it or not, a couple of contradictory things came out of that.

1) The Jews suffer through history because they broke God's Laws (Jewish fundamentalists say the same thing - tho' not "karma", more "God's wrath"). The magnitude of the Holocaust was because of how far they had come from their God and his laws.

(So that means Yahweh is god - not a memorial of Shiva's incarnation or whatever?)

2) (Monty Python reference: in yorkshire accent) You call that suffering? We Hindus suffered worse - why, Muslim invasion hit us harder because we're polythingamajig and Muslims hate that - we don't complain about it way Jews do, we understand karma, just get on with it.

(I swear that was said in words not too dissimilar - but in more of a London lilt).
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

Thank you putting aside the Brahma-kumaris's, knowledge and study of history as next to nil (as boasted by Dadi Janki who only studied arithmetic as it is essential for business accounting). You can see how this breaks down even further (... and I am not address you specifically here).

So, can someone explain the mechanics of "collective karma" versus "individual karma". How can I suffer soemone else's karma? You say "the Jews' Karma" ... so where, in which medium, is collective karma stored? How does it "organize" masses of souls all to be in the same place at the same time. Specifically here, for example, why 'Ashkenazi Jews' but not 'Sephardic Jews' ... and why did the most corrupt and godless Jews - from the Brahma Kumari leaders' point of view, the Zionists - instead escape and be positively rewarded?

Someone put it simply, "suffering genocide is the karmic reward of weakness", a point of view similar to your "caveat emptor" rule for BK followers. But boes a Hitler-like killer of a million people have to return a million times to die? You can see how ridiculous it all becomes ... a "Law" or just a simple psychological survival method of "negationism".

The WWII Holocaust killed an estimated 30% of Jews. The Indian Partition pogroms killed at the most under 0.3% of Hindus. Is "worse" measured by number of proportion?

Terry

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:Someone put it simply, "suffering genocide is the karmic reward of weakness", a point of view similar to your "caveat emptor" rule for BK followers.

So you equate

    a) being diddled of your money and my reminder of the ancient warning "let the buyer beware" with
    b) a deliberate mass extermination of a race? I'd say that statement "suffering genocide is the karmic reward of weakness" is more akin to a hardline "survival of the fittest" view of things, which is partly how the nazis self-justified.
Methinks you muddy the waters of your own good arguments.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

Small is beautiful

Well, that depends on the subject in hand. (In some case bigger is nicer. Ooooh, I am on the wrong forum? Ooops. ;) ).

In serious response though; sometimes people/organisations often-times want to be more impressive in their look than what's really on offer; aka the BKWSU. Ego is dominant when there are underlying and hidden agendas. For example, often my clients will walk out with me after a meeting to my car, making small talk as we walk along. I know they really are only wanting to see what car I drive but don't even realise it themselves, but deep down they question the service/product that I offer with 'success' and come out to see if I drive anything they'd like to be driving too. It's just the way of the world as it is.

The same theory stands for many followings/cults and spiritual organisations too. Make a big show, create a big picture and the marketing is done, bring in the bucks. It's karma perhaps?

Also to add: There is an aspect of BKWSU teachings that say, "That which you create, will return" - aren't they seeing that aspect for themselves right now? Look what they created in their followers, look at what happened to those that left the organisation and then watch the dragon being ridden in roller-coaster fashion as they try to maintain their stability.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

terry wrote:So you equate being diddled of your money ... with a deliberate mass extermination of a race.

Yes, both are an extension of the same principle ...

    the "weak" are there to be exploited at one's will by the ruthless ... and not protect
But, again, you belittle the loss of Brahma-kumari followers. To you it is a little "diddling" ... to me I see 1,000s or 10,000s of individuals losing their lives, women their opportunity to have children, deminishing their own and their family's wealth and welfare, even losing properties ... conned by some mediumistic sideshow.

And, again, do you forget what you know from a BK point of view ... the Brahma Kumaris are working up to a "Final Solution" the Nazis never dreamt of. The death of 6,000,000,000 plus so that 900,000 of their faithful followers can enjoy a reich for 2,500 years (expand 900,000 to 330 million if you wish).

Remember, specifically, what is written and said ... they will "give courage to the scientists to use the nuclear weapons" to purify the world etc.

Terry

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

terry wrote: So you equate being diddled of your money ... with a deliberate mass extermination of a race. ex-l replied : Yes, both are an extension of the same principle ...

Recent case here - an 18 y.o. girl sentenced to 3 years for graffiti. Outcry. Appeals judge overturns and places her on good behaviour bond. Outcry - this time from conservative pollies saying literally - disrespect for people and property leads to worse crimes (shadow-attorney general, NSW on radio yesterday), and so on. Is he right? Is one an extension of the other, the same principle?

Another from two days ago - a 24 y.o. man pleads guilty to sexually assaulting a 4 y.o. and is given a 2 year suspended sentence, Walks free. We can debate the comparisons here, but everyone would agree there is a big difference between the two crimes.

In view of what you say - do all crimes deserve the same punishment? or are they equally bad but deserve different punishments?
ex-l wrote:But, again, you belittle the loss of Brahma-Kumari followers. To you it is a little "diddling" ... to me I see 1,000s or 10,000s of individuals losing their lives, deminishing their own and their family's welfare conned by some mediumistic sideshow.

1) Mediumistic sideshow - anyone who has been a BK knows another entity does (or supposedly does) enter Gulzar. You still quibble whether that "spirit" is or is not "god Shiva".
2) "...10,000s losing their lives ...?": You demand accuracy, precision, references from others yet you give yourself license to exaggerate anytime you feel like it.
3) "deminishing their own and their family's welfare" - Think of the hundreds of thousands who've been through the BK doors. Some stay, some go. Some who've moved on are happy enough. Others not. Some feel they have been taken advantage of. Others feel they fooled themselves. many feel they took a lot of benefit (some on this forum have said so). Some think the BK leadership are sincere in their folly, others think they are devious.

Yes, crimes and corruption occur. People have died. The work of getting the BK institution to own its past, to change their policies and protocols so that members current and past are cared for, is something most BKs would agree with. The best way to achieve that is to get them (the Admin) to WANT to change. They will avoid any suggestion of change if they feel threatened, or if it is seen as giving in, or can dismiss their critics as "over the top", "disgruntled former members with chips on their shoulders" and cranks etc. here's where the analogy of Newton's law - action = reaction - may be at work. They push back as hard as you push.

My playing devil's advocate is to partly make sure some perspective is kept. Why? So hopefully any BK readers see some reasoned discussion and choose to investigate further rather than be put off by what seems like confrontational (to their current beliefs) language I have not directly defended or justified any crime (tho' that has been thrown at me).
ex-l wrote:the Brahma Kumaris are working up to a "Final Solution" the Nazis never dreamt of. The death of 6,000,000,000 plus so that 900,000 of their faithful followers can enjoy a reich for 2,500 years

They believe it (but use different words). Sounds like you think they may pull it off. I don't.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

What "perspective"? How more insane can they be? 6,000,000,000 plus dead so that their 900,000 faithful follwers inherit an already overdue heaven on earth ... the inspiration of a holocaust that will consume the world!?!

You are comparing apples and oranges .. those are merely ignorant, impure Kali Yuga shudras (judge and jury a like) ... They are the only true, pure, self-realised top knot Brahmins to whom god has hand picked taught for 70 years. The Court of Indra itself.

Right at the present, World Destruction and undemocratic World Domination for 2,500 years? Probably not.

Some whacko BK following General popping an intercontinental ballistic missile at Pakisthan or, say, airman crashing into a Karachi mosque and the implications that would case ... yes, probably. I could imagine that.

Please bear in mind that "give the courage to the scientists" is exactly the language that has been used (and its equivalents) since the 1930s/40s when they wrote to military marshalls instructing them to invoke military law and practice scortched earth ... as they chewed their way through millions of dollars of followers money, property, families and lives.

As for the "mediumistic sideshow" ... that were merely pander to your own point of view.
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Mr Green

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

Hey Bansy, talk about the pub I'll be a friend ... think you have to stir up ex-bks, not friend ... there's a practical example of karma LOL.

I also never rule anything out. If Karma was real, how could I not accept it, but so far I have only seen people's theories ... which are bollocks and worthless.

Also, Bansy, maybe you should become a BK, because your perception of BK life is way out. I was a fully surrendered teacher, a centre wasi, and I never ever accepted all aspects of Gyan during the whole time I was there ... it was more of a working effort to grasp these concepts and integrate them into my life. It really had nothing to do with what other BKs thought ... maybe some BKs are sheep like, but I was never in that camp.

Also I never said everything is bollocks, I said Gyan and karma are bollocks. I personally come on this forum because I like it and I enjoy the personalities of people here ... including Bansy.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

the inspiration of a holocaust that will consume the world

It's not just the 'inspiration' aspect that worries me, it's also the Image that's created and the fact that so many hundreds of thousands of people bite into that image (and inspiration) and then respons to what it brings up within them. The image created is not Godly but can aso be read about in many scriptures and prophecies shownn around the world - so where does it actually come from?

bansy

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

terry wrote:Recent case here - an 18 year old girl sentenced to 3 years for graffiti ... a 24 year old man pleads guilty to sexually assaulting a 4 y.o.

Well, what would a 4 year old know, eh? (Yes, terry this is to demonstrate that any silly reply can be given to any situation. Because you are not that 18 year old or that 4 year old).

You will not get a decent reply from ex-BKs. You hope you can get a reply from BKs who will give their version and you can then debunk their theory. But unfortunately, BKs are few are far between on this forum now. However, there will be BKs who are perusing, so it is not all lost in thin air.

Folks, see my reply to various folks in, "Who are you writing for?"

Thank you.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post05 Mar 2009

terry wrote:2) "...10,000s losing their lives ...?": You demand accuracy, precision, references from others yet you give yourself license to exaggerate anytime you feel like it.

Actually, I chose "10,000s" because I thought 100,000s might sounds like an exaggeration ... but, frankly, if Destruction fails yet again or the Golden Age does not appears, the answer is, objectively, in the 100s of 1,000s. Perhaps even millions. God, I am relieved not to have that "karma" on my back.

I was limiting my estimate to "teachers/center-in-charges", primarily young women in India, and it is certainly more than "1,000s" as the same scam has been going on for decades. I call it "waste" as I consider the BKWSU to have done very, very little practically positive things in comparison to how much of others time, money and energy they have consumed.

I also strongly concur with the concern over the "thought form" argument paul is offering here and consider that it is relevant to this conversation of how karma "works". My immediate fear would be of a suicidal BK, abused or let down yet again, taking "Destruction" into their own hands. We have had a number of suicides, we will have more, there was the BK-BK stabbing ... its only a matter of time before that emotion is turned without instead of within on a larger scale.

Now we are moving towards areas governed by real "laws" such as entropy and inertia.
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ex-l

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Re: Karma

Post13 Mar 2009

How does "karma" calculate the difference between giving money to a Senior Sister, so that they can continue to fly around the world chasing and giving Lakshmi and Narayan pictures to VIPs, and - say - giving food to a starving child or helping to provide basic education to them?

Or more to the point, how does karma calculate the difference between the two and transfer one to the Golden Age, to be returned as palaces and high status; and transfers the other, to karma bondages in the soon to be destroyed Iron Age? Surely, this must be a very complex but very precise mechanism ... how does it work, where is it?

What if the senior Sisters' travel, and VIP chasing, was a waste of time, e.g. like Dadi Janki and Robin Gibb ... all the time he was being sexually unfaithful to his wife and sleeping with his housekeeper (which is his own business ... but not "Brahmin").

Does that mean the donors to Dadi Janki also share in the wasteful or bad karma? What specifically increased or greater karmic benefit is there in sponsoring Dadi Janki to chase and suck up to VIP Robin Gibb ... and, say, feeding starving children?

Surely, Robin Gibb's suffering (connected to the death of his Brother when he was first courted by Dadi Janki etc) was the fruit of his own karma and so therefore "his own fault"?

Please, Mr Wise, explain this to me.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Karma vs Integrity

Post13 Mar 2009

ex-l :- I'd say that the points you may raise may have more to do with 'lack of integrity' than any understanding anyone has of the "Law of Karma" (who in the first place made this a 'law' anyway?)

Are these two aspects linked, per se?
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