Heaven and Hell

Dear Brother freefall,

Knowledge it is information. May it be true or false. All The Knowledge that comes from human beings to human beings comes after study, they hear, see, etc. through the sense organs information is received and transmited. If we all could have one and the same knowledge .. like for instance we all have internet access, all the information is there. Supposing it does not take any time to receive the information. What will make us different will be our perception. If we can unify our perceptions ...of what is good and what is bad, what is knowledge and what is igorance, what is for certain and what is not sure.

This Supreme Soul gives knowledge without study and we receive it through the sense organs. Truth is said for God. Truth is not equal to reality. It is a moral term. There is truth in fairy tailes, nevertheless they need not be real. Whatever is beatiful is true, whatever makes the world new. "New world is the true world", what does that mean? It means a good world. Souls will be golden there, that means truthful.

For example, a mad man has a different reality. He can even see things which we don't see. This way the soul cannot be seen but we receive The Knowledge about it. We fail to accept it as knowledge because we doubt in the One who has spoken it. Naturally, a scientist has authority, we believe him. This is the Almighty Authority yet we don't believe, because ... we have our own idea which is again taken from somewhere ... We have our own ego ... that's why this knowledge is new. It says, forget everything else. Everything else is old.

Dear Mr. Green,

The Father says, "I don’t come for the perfect ones because it is my task to create them, to make the imperfect ones perfect. I know where I have to come and whom I have to take. My children in their last birth does not have a a single virtue. This is knowledge for the poor, miserable and unhappy people".

I forgot to mention the elements of nature, that they too will be pure in heaven.

And it was mentioned, it is so beautiful ... about daytime; that it will be day all the time. Probably in the limited and unlimited sense.

IMO heaven & hell do not exist as any kind of "afterlife" to be sought or avoided. They are both purely human states of mind on this planet NOW.

Dear Brother,

No, it is not that the ones who have physical comforts and are happy are in heaven and others in hell. No. It is state of the mind that the Supreme Soul causes through His coming, His presence, His knowledge. It is the state of the soul to be in soul-consciousness - that is heaven. Hell is to be in body-conciousness (I suppose). Now we go in heaven and hell (in the conciousenss of the soul and the body). Again and again. Previously, heaven was not here at all. It was only hell. All were in body-consciousness.

We did not have this idea before Shiva had come. Then hell disspears because he causes all souls to reach soul-conciousness and it lasts for long this consciousness. Then it is only heaven. That's why they are separate. But before we can go to heaven in our conciousness we have to go above hell. We go to Shantidham. We become peaceful. Then we become happy.

Knowledge it is information. May it be true or false. .

This statement is false in my opinion. There is a difference between informing and knowing.

But before we can go to heaven in our consciousness we go to above hell. We go to Shantidham. We become peaceful. Then we become happy.

Andrey,

you really ought to state, "I believe that ..." or "BKWSU/AIVV teaches that ..." etc.

You don't know that. I am sorry but it is just a belief. Faith. Just like Bhakti. To keep repeating it as if it is a fact is attempted brainwashing, either of yourself or others weaker than you.

New Improved Bhakti with added extra bonuses, yes I agree. But Bhakti.

No one knows and no one will know until it is all over. Too late.

And I will lay down how ever many Dollars you want as a bet that the BKWSU will re-write its beliefs and "Knowledge" yet again many times. By my standards, the Seniors within the organization really do not care about philosophical integrity and will wholeheartedly mislead newcomers to the religion whilst taking money off them. I predict that they will keep misleading them until the money stops and then change again to keep it coming in.

Dear Brother x- l

Yes, our country is advanced, we even have water-mains sometimes.

But, Brother we choose what to see. Dollars are only in your eyes. Can you not see noble souls in this organisation, noble acts?

Why too late? It is not too late. We know in advance. Of course, it will be proved. That's why the victory is in those who believe. They don't say too late. They don't lose time in useless matters.

Why should this be Bhakti, and not knowledge??? The result of Bhakti is sorrow. The result of knowledge is liberation from sorrow.

And what is changed in The Knowledge? Nothing. The Knowledge is the same old knowledge. Soul, Supreme Soul, drama

Dear Mr. Green,

Yes ther is difference between knowing and informing. One is passive and one is active. The same way the Supreme Soul has, and we too have this spiritual knowledge in us, in the soul in merged form. Souls know it, it never dissapears. It is just forgotten but we cannot remember it by ourselves. That is why the one soul who never forgets it, relates it actively and we receive it. Then we become knowledgful. The difference is no one ever relates knowledge to him to make him knowledgful. He does not study. He teaches.

Dear zukov,

I forgot to mention that Armaggedon can never be avoided. Without it the world cannot become new and beautiful. This Mahabharata War is the gateway to heaven. It opens the Supreme Abode, the Land of Liberation.

Dear Brother ex-l,

Bhakti comes from many and knowledge comes from one. We study. One can study the Murli as Bhakti ritual too, one can study it with understanding. One can wake up early in the morning as Bhakti because some bodily guru has said to one that if one does not wake up early in the morning one will not become a king. Or one can wake up out of love for Baba, or out of understanding. Baba gives the example that if a child of a mother is sick, will she be able to fall asleep? Now the whole world is very sick, it is time of alarm now.

Dear zukhov,

The point for the Armageddon is not a bad point. Destruction is beneficial. For example, we cannot write on the blackboard if we don’t clear it.

Dollars are only in your eyes ...

Why should this be Bhakti, and not knowledge???

I am sorry Andrey but that is misrepresentation ... if you read all I have written and say that the only thing I can see are the BKWSU's financial interest; you brain is operating at about 5% of its capacity. Actually, I am sorry to say this but I would go as far as to say you were writing out of personal antagonism towards me.

Why should this be Bhakti? Because it is a practise based on faith. The future in not "known". You cannot say with honesty, "I 'know' the End of the World will come". THe problem is "Knowledge" takes on a new, different, even inappropriate meaning within the Brahmin world. "Lore" or "doctrine" would be better translations. "Knowledge [tm]" is not knowledge.

You can say honestly, "I am placing my faith in the 'End of the World' coming and acting accordingly ... 'I believe it will happen'".

But believing is not knowing.

In 1960s-odd to 1974/5, Lekhraj Kirpalani the BKs "KNEW" the End of the World was going to come in 1976. It did not. They "KNOW" BapDada is God. The PBKs save face by interpreting this metaphorically, to be the Destruction of a particular consciousness or group within the BKWSU. It was not either. They are still in power.

It may have been the start of Destruction, the faith and beliefs may well come true. But we won't know it until after after it has happened.

There is a very subtle point here to make; someone might well be wearing white, repeating the ideas contained with BK Knowledge, mimicking the behaviour but within their hearts they are still performing those actions at the level of Bhakti. There is a lot of emotional investment, willful forcing of beliefs into one's self or into others to try and make real those beliefs. You do it all the time. It is trying to impress beliefs into others to make them stick. That still does not make them "knowledge". It is all percentage-wise again.

For me, I wish I could see the noble acts. I hope to see them within the honesty and humility of certain PBKs. I hope that the ordinary BKs rise up to demand better answers and better leadership. For me, any that have existed are clouded by too many manipulations of truth, too many wasted lives, too many hurt individuals.

But then what is knowledge? Who can give knowlege? How can we obtain knowledge beforehand and believe. We don't need anyone to state the end of the world, just looking at the circumstances one can guess.

What makes this knowledge knowledge is that it is not about the future only, but also about the past. What makes it knowledge rather than belief is that it is a cycle.

What makes this knowledge knowledge is that it is not about the future only, but also about the past. What makes it knowledge rather than belief is that it is a cycle.

It is a belief in a constantly repeating 5,000 year Cycle. It may or may not be truth. We do not know.

The past is also not know. How long did the dinosaurs last for when they walked 2,500 years ago at the same time as Abraham and the Pharoahs? One year, six months ... ?

Shiva offers a model, it is a neat, symmetrical and simple model which works to stop us asking questions ... but it we do not know it is true.

The old questions, why a neat 157,680,000,000 seconds [excluding leap years and unknowable Heaven solar orbits, how long is a day when he says the Sun shines constantly or whatever was predicted] and how does Shiva know to act to the second?

Why a nice tidy cycle and not a squiggly line, many squiggly lines, with many forks and dead ends?

Best to hold it all quite gently in your mind. "General principles" rather than "absolute truths". Look not so much as what it is, but how it is being used and to what ends.

Its baby food out of the mouth of baby Brahma ...

I agree totally with ex-l here ... you do not know these things, you believe them

The only basis you have for having knowledge is that you have been told these things and they make sense to you and you believe in them and you have cultivated faith in them to the point that for you it is a reality ...

It is the same mind set I personally experienced for many years and I am now breaking free from. It is an extremist type mindset. It becomes real ... Consider the suicide bombers, their faith is similar to yours. They absolutely believe they have become matyrs for what they have done ...

I am not knocking your faith if it brings happiness to you, then fair enough. But I personally find it quite hard now to communicate with people with such strong beliefs.

Dear Brothers,

But what is the result of this knowledge? No one is taught anything bad, no one is told to kill people or harm anyone. We just sit and walk and consider ourselves a souls and try to change our own consciousness. It is so innocent knowlegde.

Brother ex-l for, example, you have pointed that DadaLekraj was from the Vishavis, so maybe that's why The Knowledge is like it is, but it is the other way round. All the other knowledges for any other religion and belief comes out from this one.

Dear Brothers,
But what is the result of this knowledge no one is tought anything bad, no one is told to kill peole or harm anyone. We just sit and walk and consider ourselves a souls and try to change our own conciousness. It is so inoccent knowlegde.

Brother ex-l for example you have pointed that DadaLekraj was from the Vishavis, so maybe that's why The Knowledge is like tis, but it is the outher way round. Al the other knowledges for any other religion and belief comes out from this one.

The BKs have a basic belief that through the power of Raja Yoga and the purification of souls and matter bought about by the power and depth of their Yoga with the Supreme Soul that all souls will be forced to leave their bodies without understanding, that rivers of blood will flow in the streets, that people will experience horror and unnecesary death, all these things are in the Murlis ...

In my opinion, these are bad things to teach and believe. They cause great social damage to the believers and their immediate families ... it is in mind as violent a belief as the Muslim extremists hold in that they feel all the world should come under Shia Law.

They also feel it is God and God's knowledge that they are acting under. They also feel it is beautiful to believe these things, there are many similarities.

But what is the result of this knowledge? No one is taught anything bad, no one is told to kill people or harm anyone. We just sit and walk and consider ourselves a souls and try to change our own consciousness. It is so innocent knowledge.

Again, strictly speaking, we don't know yet. It may just turn out that 100,000s of people had their brains, lives and bank balances sucked away. That is part of my problem with BKWSU. For 50 years, BKs have been mostly 'just sitting doing nothing', teaching others to sit doing nothing ... doing 'look at me' peace marches. Oh, and doing 'talking shops'.

Do you not think that they could not have been "practising soul consciousness AND putting in sewerage systems", or "practising soul consciousness AND digging wells", or "practising soul consciousness AND feeding homeless kids? Andrey, you talk about "noble souls" ... where? I would genuinely love to know. I have no idea what goes on in the one (?) hospital they have finally produced but even that, to me, is tainted by a "look at me" foundation in the name of Dadi Janki. If that it is the best they can do after near 70 years practise ...

Ah, I forgot ... BKs don't do socialwork, there is no point, it is all going to be destroyed in 5 to 10 years anyway.

Brother ex-l for, example, you have pointed that DadaLekraj was from the Vishavis, so maybe that's why The Knowledge is like it is, but it is the other way round. All the other knowledges for any other religion and belief comes out from this one.

Actually, the point I was making here was more subtle. Or dare I say "advanced". We are taught it is the other way around but we really do not know that.

I suggest that in Hinduism*, there are two main schools; on one hand Shaivite and Vaishnavite, on the other hand the "worship" of the formless and the "worship" of the form. (Of course, this is a huge generalisation ... but generally true). The Vaishnavite teach down to the unenlightened masses and offer statutes, icons, physical forms for them to practise their devotion, prayers, begging to God. In their writing of their scriptures, it is said that Gods takes a physical form in order to make it easier for the massess to worship him. These bodily forms are only rarely taught to be symbolic in nature, generally they are taught to be absolutely literal; monkey gods, half-man/half-lions, blue babies, and to question their literal nature - as I am you and some BKs - is to be accused of heresies and attacked.

The priesthood whose primary interest, I would argue, was largely to sustain and defend their position in society, may not actually have been that smart or enlightened. But they did so by forcing their limited visions onto others by social control through fear, repetition, "bribery", using vulnerable moments in individuals' lives such birth death and marriages or in some cases even providing services. They may well have been right, may be abstract concepts are hard for the majority to follow and a little blue baby or a handsome rich diamond merchant is a better icon to make.

Of course, this leads me to suggest that the Vaishnavite model are the BKs and question whether the PBKs are the Shaivite mode. But, no, here also with the PBKs we discover the "bodily form" mode of Yoga. Remembering the formless, Shiva, in the formed, Virendra Dev Dixit. And, indeed, in Shaivitism, "bodily form" schools also arose and exist.

So where is the pure bodiless form, or formless school of Gyan (if for no other reason that for it to exist next Kalpa), e.g. those that have no inhibition or inability to remember a formless (or "seed"-like) form of Shiva? Writing personally, I never had any difficulting in conceiving or relating with the bodiless form. Indeed, I found the idea of "worshipping/remembering" the bodily form, Lekhraj Kirpalani, an obstacle and wonder at PBKs going around remembering Virendra Dev Dixit. I wonder how Gyani the egg is and how far it has actually evolved from the chicken of Bhakti because the human beings are pretty much the same?

Just out of interest, the PBKs talk a lot about the seeds of the different religions in Gyan, pointing a finger at those within the BKWSU as being the seed of the Islamic faith; but who,what or where is the seed of the Buddhist faith?

For a world religion that came number two, Shiva has been awfully quiet about it.

*This generalisation might be true also of the Western school, e.g. Judaism, Christianity and Islam. where the first and last have a formless God and Christianity has Jesus. No coincidence then that the BKWSU goes down well in Christian countries and that BapDada talks fondly of it.

Who are the Christians within the PBK model?

Hi ex-l,

I think the Buddhist element are definitely there in the BK and PBK..root and seed souls respectively.. maybe they are more subdued though so they do not come up in discussion as much.

Its not that they are never talked about however, they are. As for who the seed is in the PBK I am not sure but he was definitely there with the other Islam and Christian seeds. I have not learnt his name or anything and i would not disclose it.

As far as PBKs go who are only remembering the corporeal, there would certainly be some but because ShivBaba is working through this Chariot.. there would be at least some benifit in this at least. Its not the correct way of course but it wont cause you any harm.

Who are the Christians in the PBK model.. how do you mean?