The Lighter Side of Dharamraj

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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bansy

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The Lighter Side of Dharamraj

Post09 Dec 2006

What does the image of Dharamraj conjure up ? A sort of Grim Reaper ? Why is Dharamraj feared ?
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pbktrinityshiva

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Post10 Dec 2006

He's straight up law no love involved..even for his own family. Supreme Justice of the universe residing.. The judges punishments are fair but perhaps its hard for a soul to understand the punishment is for its own good at the time.

We can reform with ShivBaba's love but Dharamraj's there to finish the job and make us pure. Whatever it takes to balance the scales and set things on an even keel again.
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ex-l

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Post10 Dec 2006

pbktrinityshiva wrote:He's straight up law no love involved ...

He's straight up love no law involved ... just an absolutely pure mirror in which to see reflected one's own faults and errors in the absolute light of knowledge.

We punish and reward ourselves!
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Mr Green

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Post10 Dec 2006

Dharamraj is IMHO one of the biggest load of tosh going in the BK philosophy ... I think it was one of Lekhraj's biggest ego trips ... apart from having his face stuck onto all the members of the Trimurti.

It is just another aspect of Hindu philosophy that he had to explain away somehow, it just doesn't make sense. Why bother having the suffering of karmic accounts through the body only to find you've got to go and hang out with this nutter?
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john

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Post10 Dec 2006

I am with ex-l on this one.

It is said punishment is through visions.

I still cannot get my head round why souls would be punished for having a loving intimate relationship. Can anyone throw some light on this? (Only Murli points if it can be backed up with proper understanding and common sense please).
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ex-l

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Post10 Dec 2006

Mr Green wrote:Dharamraj is IMHO one of the biggest load of tosh going in the BK philosophy ... I think it was one of Lekhraj's biggest ego trips ... apart from having his face stuck onto all the members of the Trimurti.

... and, of course, to sounds like a stuck record ... we don't actually know if Lekhraj Kirpalani did have his face stuck or the BKs did. The originals certainly are earlier enough but I do not know if that was him or the children doing Bhakti to him.

It is weird of him to go along with it all though. " Oor Baba is better than your Baba, our Baba is everything ... !"
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pbktrinityshiva

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Post11 Dec 2006

ex-l wrote: just an absolutely pure mirror in which to see reflected one's own faults and errors in the absolute light of knowledge.

We punish and reward ourselves!

Yes, but i think this is why people fear him :). Truth can hurt at the time until the benefit is realised.
john wrote:I still cannot get my head round why souls would be punished for having a loving intimate relationship. Can anyone throw some light on this? (Only Murli points if it can be backed up with proper understanding and common sense please).

If the loving realationship is complete and unadulterated then there is no punishment.

If it is incomplete then there is a need for numberwise punishment through visions and the corporeal form. Not everyone can reform through love 100%. Some children will be reformed with love, some will need law to be reformed or a mix of both numberwise. All have to become pure whether they want to or not :).
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Mr Green

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Post11 Dec 2006

pbktrinityshiva wrote:If it is incomplete then there is a need for numberwise punishment through visions and the corporeal form. Not everyone can reform through love 100%. Some children will be reformed with love some will need law to be reformed or a mix of both numberwise. All have to become pure whether they want to or not :)

I still disagree with this concept. To me, anything that passes itself off as God should have a much better system to work with. Why on earth should a living being be forced to suffer to change it's consciouness? That is just a complete Bhakti based guilt trip thing ... "Oh, of course one has to have retribution for one's sinful actions". !!!!!!!!!!!!

It just doesn't add up. Also they say Lekhraj suffered whilst leaving the body showing clearly if you go with BK version of karmic theory that he still had karmic accounts at the time of death, so why should he become Dharamraj !!!!!!!!!!! ... I think I should be his Dharamraj :lol:.

Come on, surely this is all just fairy stories.
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arjun

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Post12 Dec 2006

Sister Bansy wrote:What does the image of Dharamraj conjure up ? A sort of Grim Reaper ? Why is Dharamraj feared ?

Omshanti. Dharmaraj is not a physical/subtle being who may be in-charge of giving punishments. In Baba's words, Baba himself causes visions in the form of Dharmaraj to all those souls who would not be able to burn their sins through remembrance of God and noble acts performed in soul consciousness. I quote:

" Baba only causes divine visions of the form of Dharmaraj also, isn’t it? And then, he proves that, “Look, you had promised that we will not get angry, we will not cause sorrows to anyone.” But even then, you caused sorrows to him, irritated him. Now you suffer the punishment. I cannot give punishment without causing visions. Proof is required, isn’t it? They also feel that I left Father and committed sins." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 28-5-71 pg-2 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

The above Murli point also throws up another aspect that becoming an ex-BK may not be as bad as committing sins like getting angry or causing sorrows. It is also possible that someone may have become an ex-BK because of such violations of Shrimat by the souls who may physically claim to be Baba's children but behave worse than Ex-BKs/Non-BKs.
ex-l wrote:We punish and reward ourselves!

I agree. This has been said by Baba also in many Murlis.
John wrote: It is said punishment is through visions.

Baba says that the punishment is not just through visions but there is corporal punishment also. I quote:

"Now remember that there is subtle punishment along with corporal punishment. Don’t think that we will suffer the subtle punishments within the mind and exhaust them. No. Subtle punishments are received in subtle form. And these will increase day by day. If you act against the code of conduct (Maryadas), violate the code of conduct, both worldly and Godly codes of conduct, and then such souls will have to experience corporal punishments also." (A.V. 3-5-72,pg-3, published by BKs and narrated through Gulzar Dadiji)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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john

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Post12 Dec 2006

arjun wrote:Baba says that the punishment is not just through visions but there is corporal punishment also. I quote:
"Now remember that there is subtle punishment along with corporal punishment. Don’t think that we will suffer the subtle punishments within the mind and exhaust them. No. Subtle punishments are received in subtle form. And these will increase day by day. If you act against the code of conduct (Maryadas), violate the code of conduct, both worldly and Godly codes of conduct, and then such souls will have to experience corporal punishments also." (A.V. 3-5-72,pg-3, published by BKs and narrated through Gulzar Dadiji)

When you say Baba, then surely following the line of churnings of PBKs and Advanced Knowledge, this is just Brahma Baba(Lekhraj Kirpalani). Also if it said Brahma Baba had a baby intellect, then how can you give weight of authority to what is said in the Avyakt Vani? Unless Brahma Baba is just repeating Sakar Murli, in which case the points will be in Sakar Murlis. This I am not able to understand, I don't see how it can work both ways. Either Brahma Baba does understand or he doesn't?

If Brahma Baba misunderstood 1976 destruction, which would have been spoken about in the 1970's Avyakt Vanis, then how can it be said he understood other points correctly ...

bansy

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Post12 Dec 2006

My understanding of "punishment" is that it not only happens at the time of destruction, but also throughout the duration of the entire cycle. As the drama is fixed, thus your karma, and whilst you go through time, both your rewards and your punishments will subsequently happen throughout your different births.

However, the extent of your punishments depends on the degree of your efforts made during this Confluence Age. Whilst we often consider working for and experiencing for within this final Brahmin birth, actually we are setting the scene for 84 roles. Thus subtle and corporal punishments will happen during the other 4900 years also.

This is my churning.
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ex-l

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Post13 Dec 2006

bansy wrote:Thus subtle and corporal punishments will happen during the other 4900 years also.

I don't know about this whole business ... I am wondering ... Now, it is not just Brahmins or Hindus that talk about Dharamraj. Similar stories comes up in Christianity, Tibetan Buddhism ... other religions. Does that suggest souls of all religions are processed in some way, come the return to Paramdham? Could it be that what is thought to be "Dharamraj" is not the facing of a being but the turmoil and visions in the mind of the soul as it is pulled involuntarily towards the seed stage as it enters the Soul World. Like all the dirt coming out of the clothes during the spin cycle of a washing machine. Another question to ask here is how are the souls all pulled up and out of the physical world to experience this when we presume it must largely be involuntarily.

My guess is that "punishment" here is some sort of processing, the "camel being dragged through the eye of the needle" to have all the extra baggage stripped off it. And the experience in the future would be the ramifications of one's actions but not punishment as such. If it is all true.

But, as ever, I find the messages through Lekhraj Kirpalani lacking in depth and precision. Does he mean BB being strict with the children in the physical when he was alive, they used to hold little "courts" to address complaints of the followers in the Om Mandali. He uses the present tense, "Now, you suffer punishment ..." not, "In the future you will suffer ...". Surely, the corporeal punishment is just karma? To which I would add, the return of bad actions are worse if you KNOW that those actions are bad via Gyan and yet still do them.
arjun wrote:It is also possible that someone may have become an ex-BK because of such violations of Shrimat by the souls who may physically claim to be Baba's children but behave worse than Ex-BKs/Non-BKs.

One of the biggest problems of living outside of a Brahmin society, and this will apply to many PBKs as well, is that one's entire social environment has a different set of values to oneself. In theory, living with a BK society means that all your contacts share the same set of values largely based on the Murli, Sanatam Dharma but to some degree on the unwritten rules of BK Brahmin life. Stepping outside, the soul is confronted with a very different playing field where happiness is sorrow and sorrow is happiness. For examples, to have a relationship is to give happiness to another, not refuse a relationship is to cause unhappiness; honesty and integrity might be considered trouble making and so on. Being "Good" is a weakness and will lead one to being abused; being hard and selfish is rewarded with position. In such an environment, it is often quite difficult to know what is good or bad karma.

There is a general principle that the higher you climb, the harder the punishments are because with position comes responsibility ... but how are the calculation made? A senior BK that exploits another is bound to suffer more but has still also made their own positive efforts. They used to tell us that if the Seniors did anything worng their actions would be taken care of by Baba ... wishful thinking?
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mitra

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Post13 Dec 2006

Om Shanti

If a senior does something wrong, he/she will definitly has to suffer punishment. In many Murli's it is said that souls outside will get more prize i.e. position in the Golden Age than souls inside.

That is, surrendered soul who commit any mistake will be taken very seriously and they have to become servants in the royal palace.

IBHS
MITRA
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john

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Post13 Dec 2006

Mitra wrote:Om Shanti

If a senior does something wrong, he/she will definitly has to suffer punishment. In many Murli's it is said that souls outside will get more prize i.e. position in the Golden Age than souls inside.

Surely that goes without saying are you imlying some BKs believe Seniors to be immune to karma, they are souls like the rest of us.
That is, surrendered soul who commit any mistake will be taken very seriously and they have to become servants in the royal palace.

Or it can mean Baba can see the future parts and is gving hints that souls outside the BKSWU will act greater than souls inside and have better karma.

Surely the greatest sin is to lead souls away from the truth.

bansy

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Post13 Dec 2006

Does the "canopy of protection" protect us from Dharamraj ?
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