Baba's Spoken Language

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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arjun

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Post03 Jan 2007

celtiggyan wrote:Why does Shiv-Baba always speak in Hindi? I heard he spoke the odd word of English but surely the supreme would know all languages? Is he restricted by the brain of the medium?

Omshanti. It is a good topic to discuss. Sorry for the delayed reply from my side. Many members have given valuable inputs on the topic. Freefall has given a good account of the relationship between Hindi, Urdu and Sindhi. I fully agree with him on this aspect.
joel wrote:I understood that the Being spoke in Hindi from the beginning; that the senior Sisters had to learn Hindi to understand the discourses; that the Murlis Dadi read were Hindi language, but written in the Sindhi script to be easier for Dadi to read.

She doesn't (or did not) translate while reading, she was reading directly, as far as I could tell from my cumulative months at the ashram.

It has been a long time since I left BKs, but I somewhat agree with Joel that Dadis used to or may be still read the Hindi BK Murlis printed in Urdu script for them. One thing that I am sure of is that whenever Avyakt BapDada used to narrate Avyakt Vanis at Mt. Abu, the senior Dadis (especially Dadi Kumarka) used to note it down in their diaries in Urdu script and not in Hindi (Devanagari) script. That was in my childhood. I used to be amazed how the Dadis used to write in Sindhi (i.e. Urdu) from the right to left side of the page unlike the English and Hindi languages which are written from the left to the right side of a page.

The BK center that I used to attend for many years was also run by a Dadi (whose mothertongue was Sindhi) and she used to get some Murlis in Sindhi (i.e. Urdu) script which she used to read out in class in Hindi. It proves that the language was Hindi but the script was Urdu.

I have heard many Dadis conversing with each other (and with senior BK Sisters like Mohini Bhen, Eeshu Bhen etc.) in Sindhi language. In the pre-independance days, Urdu language (and script) used to be the medium of education in most parts of India (especially in the Muslim-ruled Princely states).

As regards the use of Hindi by ShivBaba as a medium of narrating Murlis, I have a small Murli quote which is readily available. There may be some other quotes which may be more relevant or exhaustive, but I think the following Murli point also addresses the issue to some extent.

"Baap toh Hindi may hi samjhaatey rahtey hain. Bhashaen toh dher hain na. Interpreter bhi hotey hain, jo sunkar fir sunaatey hain. Hindi aur English toh bahut jaantey hain." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 26.7.05, page 2)

"Father keeps explaining only in Hindi. There are a lot of languages, isn’t it? Interpreters are also there, who listen and then narrate. Many people know Hindi and English." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.07.05, page 2 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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john

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Post03 Jan 2007

OK, am I following the plot correctly, Brahma Baba used to speak Murli in Hindi, though he couldn't fully understand it?

freefall

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Post04 Jan 2007

John wrote:OK, am I following the plot correctly, Brahma Baba used to speak Murli in Hindi, though he couldn't fully understand it?

What makes you say so? There is no reason to believe that he did not understand it.

OTOH, the type of Hindi that he spoke fits very well with his background. It is evident that it is not his mother tongue. At the same time, it is the language that he most commonly would have required for his business activities. The result is very much on the expected lines: a somewhat crude language devoid of any literary beauty; nonetheless, easy to understand.
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john

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Post04 Jan 2007

What makes you say so? There is no reason to believe that he did not understand it.

Nothing, I am just trying to follow the plot here and was asking whether that was correct or not.

So you are saying everything that was spoken in Sakar Murli, would have been easy for Brahma Baba to understand?
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ex-l

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Post04 Jan 2007

John wrote:OK, am I following the plot correctly, Brahma Baba used to speak Murli in Hindi, though he couldn't fully understand it?

I think we are reading that Shiva spoke a sort of lower middle class Hindi and Lekhraj Kirpalani spoke Sindhi. I am supposing Shiva could not read or write. His Hindi was translated into Sindhi or Urdu to be translated back into Hindi or English.

Its a seed bed for the mightiest confusion.

What does Shiva speak through Virendra Dev Dixit? Can one tell by the spoken language when Shiva entered? What happens when he enters the children to help them?
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abrahma kumar

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Post08 Jan 2007

Andrey wrote:God comes in India and speaks Hindi because Hindi is common language in India. He comes in India because of its speciality of valuing purity and unadultery which cannot be seen in any other country.

Thank you for the response Andrey but this answer seems a bit like "corporate speak". Could you or anyone else elaborate? Thank you.

bansy

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The language of the children

Post19 Jan 2007

Whilst there are other threads discussing the language of ShivBaba, what language will be spoken after getting up and dusting ourselves after the destruction, on 1.1.1 when ShivBaba has taken leave of us ?

Would communication all be through "Yoga" only ? If so, then when does language come into play ?
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abrahma kumar

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Post19 Jan 2007

Hi bansy, I wonder if the BKWSU publication VISIONS OF THE FUTURE ?? sheds any light on your question?

bansy

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Post19 Jan 2007

Thanks. I have it somewhere ...

Just skimmed ... Golden Age ... one religion, one language ... Ah ha , (page 57, Visions of the Future) "you will learn language which will be very pure Hindi".
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arjun

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Post23 Jan 2007

Omshanti. Someone had started a similar discussion on the forum of http://www.xbkchat.com regarding the prevalence of Hindi before Sanskrit. He had said that as per the Murlis of Baba the language of heaven was Hindi. But the history says that Hindi has developed after Sanskrit. The language prior to/ contemporary of Sanskrit was Pali, Brahmi etc. We had approached Baba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) for the answer in this regard. The answer received was as follows:

Uttar: sthool Satyug me ishare ki bhasha hoti hai, Hindi se milti julti bhasha hoti hai. Lekin Sanskrit nehi hoti hai.
Vaastav me prachin bhasha Hindi hai na ki Sanskrit, Sanskrit toh Shankaracharya ke baad nikli hai. Jo aatey hai waha aapni bhasha chalate hain . --- mu 21-9-71, p-2

Satyug me sanskrit nehi hoti. Jo-jo jaisa raja hota hai waha apni bhasha chalata hain . Sanskrit bhasha koi rajaon ki nehi hai. yeh sanyasi logon sunate hai....ab Baba koi Sanskrit thode hi sikhlate hain. --- mu 10-10-75 p-2


Answer: In the actual Golden Age there is sign language, there is a language which resembles Hindi. But it will not be Sanskrit.

Actually, the ancient language is Hindi and not Sanskrit. Sansktit has developed after Shankaracharya. Whoever comes develops his own language. (Murli dated 21.9.71, pg.2) Sanskrit will not be in usage in the Golden Age. As the king, so will be the language promoted by him. Sanskrit is not a language of kings. These Sanyasis speak in that language. Now, does Baba teach Sanskrit? - (Murli dated 10.10.75, pg.2)


Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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andrey

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Post04 Feb 2007

Dear Brother,
Whatever is Baba’s language should be the language of the children. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says Hindi is the easiest language in the world. One can learn in few months. It also means words and expressions he uses we should use the same. It is easy Raja Yoga. Lanuage is simple and clear.

We are human beings - use language, have an idea of God. Animals neither use language, nor do they have God nor do they think. God comes in human form for the human beings and uses human language and expresses ideas that can be understood by the human intellect. He says that if he would speak Sanskrit no one would understand. In the Murli it is said – Does Baba knows Maths – He comes to purify the impure why would he need mathemathics for this. It is also said that he does not need to know everything. We have some other ideas of him from elsewhere but we can know him when he introduces himself.

Also he comes for the Bharatvasis specifically because they used to be deities. Deities are those souls who take complete 84 births. India is the oldest and imperishable land. The Hindus start calling themselves Hindus later on, but in the Murli it is said that this naming is not correct because the name of the religion is not based on the name of the country (Hindustan), but the religious founder. (Buddhist, Muslim, Christian), (it is not used American, English to specify a religion). Hindus/deities don’t know their own religious founder who is ShivBaba. If you ask them who created their religion, someone will say Ram, someone Krishna, someone Shankar etc. From this deity religion, the souls are converted to other religions, that’s how other religions grow. Other lands did not exist in the past and will not continue to exist forever. They are perishable lands and religions.

The Supreme Father the Supreme Soul also comes in India because they believe in Him, in reincarnation, in the soul, in the drama, in the scriptures, making devotion to him. In the Murli it is said, "give this knowledge to my devotees" – devotees of Shiva. Just by uttering the name they’ll be glad. Others who have gurus, and people of other religions, will not understand so easily and quickly. They have their own God to believe in – they believe in two – for example Christians believe in Christ and in his Father. The soul of the deity religion don't have a guru in between, but have direct connection. Yes, there is also a mother with the Father. Now he comes and says to stop listening to the human gurus through which the world has gone down and now to listen to only one through whom there is benefit for all. The slogan is in one incorporeal true guru there is salvation. In many bodily gurus there is downfall.

freefall

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Post05 Feb 2007

Andrey wrote:Whatever is Baba’s language should be the language of the children. Baba via Veerendra Dev Dixit says Hindi is the easiest language in the world. One can learn in few months.

All I can see is that Baba is being a language chauvinist. What is his basis for declaring Hindi as the easiest language, anyways? I am a native Hindi speaker and I can assure you that it is not that easy. I live in the US and always speak Hindi in my home. Yet my six year old finds it much easier to speak English than Hindi.

I am sure Hindi is easier for both the Babas, but not for everyone else.
India is the oldest and imperishable land.

Baba continues to make errors after errors. The oldest land is central Africa. Is it not time for Baba to check from his own records the dates when he created these lands?
Hindus/deities don’t know their own religious founder who is ShivBaba. If you ask them who created their religion, someone will say Ram, someone Krishna, someone Shankar etc.

Most of the naturally evolved religions follow the same scheme. If you asked a pagan or a wiccan about the founders of their religions, you would have got the same answer.
The Supreme Father the Supreme Soul also comes in India because they believe in Him, in reincarnation, in the soul, in the drama, in the scriptures, making devotion to him.

Baba had to be from India because India was all he knew about!

There have been thousands of cults in this world with thousands of 'babas'. No 'Baba' worth his salt has ever found it difficult to justify his birth in that particular culture/ region/ country. The logic is simple: A 'Baba' decides to be born in a culture because of inherent 'superiority' of that culture. Now what better proof of superiority of that culture than 'Baba' himself deciding to be born there?!
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andrey

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Post23 Feb 2007

Amongst all the false limited Baba's (via whoever-it-may-be) there is one unlimited Baba (via who-is-he) who is the real one. Others copy him.

Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that it is the body that belongs to this country, this language. We practice maintaining a soulconscious vision, so The Knowledge is for everyone. Baba via Lekhraj Kirpalani and via Virendra Dev Dixit is not only a language chauvinist but also nationalist. He gives preference to a country and people but the most he gives preference to a single soul he adopts as his only child. It is said God is one and his child will be said one. This child is not Christ or Mohammad, but the soul whom both Christ, Mohammad, consider as their ancestor - Adam. God is a grand Father so he is Father to these religious fathers, but this is the human being. According to the soul the Supreme Soul is Father to even this soul of Father so he is grand grandfather. Accounts are such that a body has to have specific features has to reside in specific place, to speak certain language, so these play part here as well for the body the Supreme Soul has to enter.

It is said that the love for the Supreme Soul vanished because of not knowing his name and form - time, place of residence, acts etc. Baba via Lekhraj Kirpalani and via Virendra Dev Dixit also likes the customs and systems in India. Each place has his own customs and systems. One cannot possibly give preference to one customs and systems and at the same time give preference to other customs and systems which are totally the opposite and remain truthful and God is truth. He proves India the oldest land, it used to be Heaven, and will be Heaven again. Although souls there have experienced degradation they have not gone so far away from the original values, whereas the values, customs and systems of other countries are sometimes totally different.

Now the false values are considered true. What is not good is proved good, what is not normal, becomes normal and what is normal becomes strange. These religions that have originated naturally ... they are also one and the same. Originally there is one religion. This religion then falls apart. Scriptures of India with its Gods, very much resemble Greek Pantheon – so Roman Gods and mythology of other cultures. Initially, before the coming of many Gods – Abraham, Buddh, Christ – there was no God. There are then many Gods, and then there is only one God, and everyone remembers such a time.

Of course, your children will rather speak English if they are in contact with English speakers. In what country do they live, what are their friends like, what language do they watch on the tv, in what environment are they ... it proves nothing.
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ex-l

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Post24 Feb 2007

Andrey wrote:Originally there is one religion. This religion then falls apart. Scriptures of India with its Gods, very much resemble Greek Pantheon – so Roman Gods and mythology of other cultures. Initially, before the coming of many Gods – Abraham, Buddh, Christ – there was no God. There are then many Gods, and then there is only one God, and everyone remembers such a time.

Of course, your children will rather speak English if they are in contact with English speakers. In what country do they live, what are their friends like, what language do they watch on the tv, in what environment are they ... it proves nothing.

BKWSU Gyan, at least, although I don't believe it states that Shiva's temple at Somnath was first, before the prophet souls came. Probably they claim that Lekhraj Kirpalani build it.

And historically it is false to say there was only one religion. You cannot prove there was one religion ever. Worship and veneration appears to have arisen from hunting and fertility rites where many gods, spirits, plants (especially psycho-active ones), animals phalluses and yonis were worshipped all over the planet.

Historically the connection between Greek statuary aesthetics and India appears valid, you can thank the Bactrian Indo-Greek kings and the Silk Route for that. But stone gods and godesses statues appear in India from the pre-historic period of 3000-1000 BC. From all around the world, since pre-historic times, there have been statues; Africa, Europe, Australia, China, the Americas each with its own uniqueness.
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admin

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Post24 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:
Andrey wrote:Originally there is one religion. This religion then falls apart. Scriptures of India with its Gods, very much resemble Greek Pantheon – so Roman Gods and mythology of other cultures. Initially, before the coming of many Gods – Abraham, Buddh, Christ – there was no God. There are then many Gods, and then there is only one God, and everyone remembers such a time.

Of course, your children will rather speak English if they are in contact with English speakers. In what country do they live, what are their friends like, what language do they watch on the tv, in what environment are they ... it proves nothing.

BKWSU Gyan, although I don't believe it, states that Shiva's temple at Somnath and the worship of one God as Incorporeal was first, before the prophet souls came. Probably they claim that Dada Lekhraj build it. It may just be metaphorical to the Confluence Age, another misunderstanding.

Historically it is false to say there was only one religion. You cannot prove there was one religion ever. All evidence is to the opposite. Worship and veneration appears to have arisen from hunting and fertility rites where many gods, spirits, plants (especially psycho-active ones), animals phalluses and yonis were worshipped all over the planet.

Historically the connection between Greek statuary aesthetics and India appears valid, you can thank the Bactrian Indo-Greek kings and the Silk Route for that. But stone gods and godesses statues appear in India from the pre-historic period of 3000-1000 BC. From all around the world, since pre-historic times, there have been statues; Africa, Europe, Australia, China, the Americas each with its own uniqueness.
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