Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Mr Green

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Post05 Jan 2007

freefall wrote:People in the US also have knives, they also have necks and they also get mad at others. Does it mean that the murder rate in the US should be the same as in India?

I have no idea what you mean by this. All I am saying is people are people everywhere the world over, they have sex. People owning knives ... I cannot see the correlation.

The world is my family, I think there are good and bad people (maybe you would use ... pure/impure?) everywhere in all countries, it's a reality ... To discuss the purity of one nation over others is elitist nonsense to me ... Next you'll be telling me that people with dark skin are less pure.

freefall

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Post05 Jan 2007

ex-l wrote:On one hand one could, and a few have tried, to analyze the BK movement as a purely socio-psychological reaction, putting down a theory that e.g., Dada Lekhraj had a bad experience of sex, marriage or witnessed a series of terrible sexually movitated crimes as a young man and it emerged that he started a movement.

I think that extreme puritanism of BK movement regarding sex, comes from its circumstances of origin rather than Dada Lekhraj's bad experience of sex. Imagine the earlier days of Yagya. Young Amil women whose husbands used to be away on business for several months of the year, sometimes years. A male guru. And a society where 'honor killings' had social acceptance. (Even now in this part -- which is now Pakistan -- 'honor killings' are sympathized despite legal ban. Nothing arouses here people's passion more than a sexual allegation on there womenfolk -- not even hatred for the US can compare with this). Under these circumstances, even an unsubstantiated whiff of a sexual escapade would have brought most violent kind of reprisals. Yagya would have been physically eliminated before start.

Dada Lekhraj understood this threat quite clearly. Only way to avoid this situation was to adopt an extreme kind of puritanism to pre-empt any charges of promiscuity, which he did.
ex-l wrote: Perhaps it led him to idealize women, their wants and needs. There is obviously the infuence of the 12 unnamed Vallabacharya Gurus. What do we know aout them?

As far as I know, there was only one Vallabhacharya. He was a 15th century saint-philosopher and founder of the path of pure-nodualism called 'pushti-marga'. He was not puritanical. He had a happy married life and had two sons. His philosophy requires an intellectual sophistication that would rule out most of the early participants of the Yagya.
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arjun

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Post06 Jan 2007

ex-l wrote:On one hand one could, and a few have tried, to analyze the BK movement as a purely socio-psychological reaction, putting down a theory that e.g., Dada Lekhraj had a bad experience of sex, marriage or witnessed a series of terrible sexually movitated crimes as a young man and it emerged that he started a movement.

Dear Brother,
I cannot comment on the above aspect as I do not have any access to complete information about Dada Lekhraj's personal life except what has been documented by the BKs. But there are mentions in Murlis about brothels in Calcutta in East India and in Bankhar near Haridwar, a holy Hindu pilgrimage center on the banks of river Ganga. There is a mention of the rich people of Calcutta having extra marital affairs (read 'kothis for the unofficial wives'). There is also mention of VIPs having admitted to Baba about their inablity to control their vision. There is also mention of 80 or 90 year olds giving birth to children.

From the history of Dada Lekhraj provided by the BKs, it appears as if he lead a satisfied family life with many children, but his life compares to that of Mahatma Gandhi, none of whose sons followed his footsteps, unlike Nehru, who inherited the political abilities from his Father and passed on the same to his only daughter and grandsons and great-grandchildren.

And if we PBKs are to be believed, it was not Dada Lekhraj who started the movement, although the divine visions that were caused to him were a precursor for the movement.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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tinydot

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Post06 Jan 2007

arjun wrote:There is also mention of 80 or 90 year olds giving birth to children.

Can Dadis qualify on this? I would love to see them get pregnant by the power of Yoga before they leave their bodies. They started teaching giving birth by the power of Yoga, they should fulfill it. If you start something, you do it from the beginning, middle through the end.
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arjun

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Post06 Jan 2007

tinydot wrote:Can Dadis qualify on this? I would love to see them get pregnant by the power of Yoga before they leave their bodies. They started teaching giving birth by the power of Yoga, they should fulfill it. If you start something, you do it from the beginning, middle through the end.

Sorry, I forgot to specify that Baba was mentioning about males and not females. Even from the medical point of view women cannot become pregnant after menopause (around 50 years I suppose) whereas men can impregnate women till the end of their life. And last year Times of India carried an article of a 90 year old man giving birth to a son. Of course, his second wife, who gave birth to his first son was half his age, while his first wife (who is also alive), a few years younger to him had given birth only to a daughter, that too very late. The reason for his health, he said, was camel's milk and a lot of walking.

Although Dadis probably would not give birth to children through the power of Yoga in this birth (as they aim to become deities in the next birth), but we PBKs have been told by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) that we would get transformed into deities in this birth itself and would give birth to deity children also through the power of Rajyog and through the same bodies, which would of course get rejuvenated after the forthcoming Destruction. As it has already been intimated on this forum that about 2.25 lakh couples would survive that Destruction. The hint for rejuvenation of bodies has been given in the Murlis in the form of repeated mentions of shedding of old skin by the snakes several times in its life.
And if we PBKs are to be believed, it was not Dada Lekhraj who started the movement, although the divine visions that were caused to him were a precursor for the movement.

Nevertheless, we believe that God Shiv played the role of a mother through Dada Lekhraj.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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abrahma kumar

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Post09 Jan 2007

sparkal wrote:Shiva comes to serve all souls and sees not culture, body type, social status age etc. If we are aiming to see Shiva's vision, then we need to leave all that behind before we start ...

Well said Sparkal. I too have taken that ALL to mean ALL
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arjun

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Post12 Jan 2007

ex-l wrote:Just out of interest, has the BKWSU ever attempted to challenge prostitution, child sex slavery and provide sanctuary for women looking to escape prostitution?
• Are the joint forces of evil within the Indian police, Indian government, wealthy Indian landlords, Indian upper-class consumers and Indian mafia males just too powerful for even the Maha Shiv Shaktis to challenge?

• Have they or would they be willing to stake their faith against such an evil?

"Baba says, ‘Prostitutes must also be uplifted. This is a brothel. They have spoiled India’s name. In this mainly the power of Yoga is required. They are completely sinful. One requires undertaking the journey of remembrance to become pure. Now that power of remembrance is very less. If you uplift the prostitutes also by considering them as souls then you will not feel any hatred towards them. All the souls have become degraded, but one feels hatred towards them. They are number one sinful ones. Then they have to become number one pure. Although this birth was good (monetarily) but they are number one sinful isn’t it? So these Ganikas should also be uplifted. Only then will you become famous. If you consider yourself to be a soul and feel that you are explaining to a Brother, then you will not feel hatred. But that stage has not arrived. One must uplift the Ganikas also, isn’t it?

There must by very good experienced mothers who can go and explain. Kanya's (virgins) are not experienced. Mothers can explain, we were like this. Now Father says, ‘Become pure, then you can become the masters of the world. This world will become a Shivalaya (a temple of Shiva). “there’s so much sorrow here People keep diving in the ocean of vice (sex lust). They have a lot of associations. Among the prostitutes also there are numberwise, some are very rich possessing very good houses. You can know everything from the Government. You explain them also. Father says, “Now take up the vow to become pure”. They come out but the body consciousness has not been removed entirely. In order to purify such sinful souls the sword of the power of Yoga should also be very sharp. Perhaps it’s a little late. One should talk to the Government regarding the prostitutes. Those who explain are also number wise.

Prostitutes and Ganikas will also come who will gallop faster then you. They will start singing first class songs and start giving first class lectures. They will rise immediately. If you uplift such fallen souls by explaining (The Knowledge) then you will earn a lot of fame. The prostitutes will say, “these people uplift the prostitutes also to such great heights”. They will themselves say, “we were shudras. Now we have become Brahmin. Then we shall become Deities and then Kashtriya. Prostitutes can also make efforts and become the beads of rosary, because they are very sorrowful. They will start making effort with a lot of vigor. In future you will observe all these things."
[Revised Sakar Murli dated 3/1/74 Pg-1 narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba]

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

worldpeace

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Post15 Jan 2007

I will just post my views as an Indian.

Disclaimer : I, worldpeace, by any means don't intend to hurt any body's personal and national sentiments.

For me India has degraded a lot culturally and socially. And people credit this to the Western influence - modern dresses that expose a lot, disco, pop and all that stuff seems obscene.

My views are primarily of a conservative middle class Indian (the Islamic influence on my views are almost negligible ... remember polygamy is valid in Middle East Islamic countries and is generally disapproved in India ... Islamic value system especially with respect to women is altogether is separate topic).

As long as I was in BK the seriousness of the issues such as rape, prostitution, extra marital affairs, pre-marital sex and others really did not strike me (rather I was a teen then). Now ... I cry at the news that comes everyday in the papers ... internet and blogs ... The value systems are almost intact in the middle class Indian families (300 million - as large as USA) ... but at the bottom and top of the pyramid its worst.

I will say poor people are degraded because of the frustration of being poor and are being forced to live that way by the rich and the powerful, and most of them are idle without job and get in to bad habits at a very young age. It has now become their way of life. And for prostitution ... poverty and poverty is the only reason in 99.9% of the cases. Is this the reason in the Western world for prostitution? I guess it is more because of greed for money or just lust. For me still value systems are better in India than to the developed countries.

In the Western world, women are protected by law. In India, they are exploited by law and protected only by the respect for women. All those statistics in this thread are true ... but given the population of India, it might still compare better than actually what is projected. What people do voluntarily in the West - the openness, happens in India only because of force. So now this leads me to the question;
    Does souls take a single gender throughout The Cycle or take both the genders?
    How does all the crime against women - rape, prostitution, incest, child sex account for the Law of Karma?
    Is not the nature/drama biased against women by making them physically weak?
    If a women is forced in to prostitution by her negative karma and later she does that because she has no choice but enjoys doing that - will this be vikarma or akarma?
    Applying the same logic of butcher whose job is to kill, to the prostitutes whose job is sex, will Dharamraj forgive them?
Whatever ... Given a choice I wont really be a woman .. We need to do something really about this ... Baba ... listening to me? Aren't women your children too?

BKs??

I know, I have typed out of topic ... Kindly excuse me ... its midnight here and I am really frustrated when i see the news - another women raped in Delhi in broad daylight ... darn ... one of them is a police ...
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    abrahma kumar

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    Post15 Jan 2007

    So now this leads me to the question - does souls take a single gender throughout The Cycle or take both the genders?

    Hi worldpeace, As I recall from one of Baba's Murli the answer to that question is NO, the soul does not take a single gender throughout The Cycle.

    However, I remember Baba saying that the soul does NOT take more than 2 consecuitive births in the same gender.

    So we are interchanging male/female roles all the way through The Cycle such that a male role could be followed by a female role and vice versa OR male followed by male or female follwed by female but we will never play 3 male or female roles in a row.

    worldpeace

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    Post15 Jan 2007

    Abrahma Kumar wrote:I remember Baba saying that the soul does NOT take more than 2 consecuitive births in the same gender. So we are interchanging male/female roles all the way through The Cycle.

    So how does the karmic cycle spin - we commit sins as a male and suffer for that as a female?
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    abrahma kumar

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    Post15 Jan 2007

    Nice Question. Could one way of exploring that be based on the fact that our sins are not "gender specific" but more related to the "lessons/truths" that we as souls need to awaken to? Am just throwing this into the gathering as 'point' for exploration.

    If there is any merit in such an appreciation of Baba's Murli point then might it be possible to extrapolate that the soul is the primary vehicle through which our karmic accounts are 'settled'. (I think that if I had more time I could have expressed that more accurately - apologies).

    I am not dismissing the 'fate' of women or in fact men in certain cultures but would need time to explore that angle some more. It could well be that we 'settle' in the way that you surmise.

    I had a dream that was very horrifyingly graphic in Madhuban one time and ever since I cant shake the imagery. Whenever I remember It I feel that it has scope as a powerful service toll but it would be very controversial I think. It seems to play upon a lot of what we are discussing here. Maybe one day ...
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    ex-l

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    Post15 Jan 2007

    Abrahma Kumar wrote:I am not dismissing the 'fate' of women or in fact men in certain cultures but would need time to explore that angle some more. It could well be that we 'settle' in the way that you surmise.

    It also goes against the trent of feminism within the current BKWSU, does not it. is not women's suffering their own fault like all other karma?

    Should not they be encouraged to accept it as fair and natural payment for their excess last life as a man? Should not Brothers be encourages to come forward and be dominant as a balance to their previous submissive life as a women?

    Something does not add up here.

    worldpeace

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    Post16 Jan 2007

    Abrahma Kumar wrote:I remember Baba saying that the soul does NOT take more than 2 consecuitive births in the same gender.

    OK ... if this is in fact true ... then all the souls should take EVEN number of births to maintain the equilibrium ... But as per BKs we take a maximum of 83 physical births, which is odd and 1 divine birth.
    ex-l wrote:Something does not add up here.

    But taking equal number of births as male and female in a cycle seems logical to me. That kind of adds up. But does that really happen?

    worldpeace

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    Post16 Jan 2007

    Dear Admin,

    Should this move this topic in to a new thread called "Gender and Drama" ?
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    abrahma kumar

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    Post16 Jan 2007

    Om Shanti. Firstly Worldpeace I am sure that everyone would extend good wishes to the soul whose experience you refer us to. What does the BKs Raja Yoga offer to men and women such that these 'criminal' tendencies are eliminated. Since we are talking about Karma here I wonder if our 'humitarian' view of these crimes might miss the point somewhat (yes I am being a little provocative) Who knows the karmic entaglement that souls have with each other?

    Ex-I, I would have to revisit my high school maths to see if that Baba's Murli point would result in an even number of male/female bodies in The Cycle. But instinctively I do not think it is necessarily the case but Raja Yoga is not about instinct is it.

    At the time I remember thinking whether that Murli point could explain the manner in which some souls retained very vivid sanskars of the opposite sex although their bodily form had changed. This topic of churning is not something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about but imagine that my previous 2 births or even 1 birth in a male or female body had resulted in 'well-honed' male/female oriented sanskars and then as a girl/boy in my next birth in spite of the social conditioning blah blah I was not able to 'outgrow' the influences of the sanskars acquired whilst in that previous male/female body consequently I displayed a set of attitudes that while not 'gender appropriate' where perfectly understandable given the state of my sanskaras. Madness ...?

    Of course the sanskaras would still be laid down within the soul but perhaps one of the underlying goals of BK Raja Yoga is to develop a set of sanskaras that are not 'consciously' gender oriented but rather wholly grounded in soul consciousness. So that whatever the body we take in Heaven we are devoid of sanskaras influenced by any 'gender bias'.
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