Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

And what of the homosexual activities (if there are any?) Time to get your own house in order BKs instead of looking at others. I don't care if the house in question cost you £10m or £10.

Referring to your other point, having known of some lesbian BKs who have a tough time with all the emphasis on shared accommodation, I am sure we are no more immune from this than the RC church ... but seems it is the great untalked about issue..

I heard from Sisters and happened to notice it myself in Madhuban, passing by a room in training session, that sometimes Sisters indulge in very sensual long massage sessions. 1 to 1, group ones. But usually the bossy one gets massaged, the other one gets benefit possibly in other ways! There was a lot of gossip - it seems - going on about that. In fact, it was not recommended but rules get bent all the time. More things to say about rules. I will in another topic. At some stage there was a sweet, good looking, high class Brother in Madhuban that started massaging lots of Sisters. They had to stand in a line for it, or book in advance. He was professional (not gigolo, I mean, he apparently had some knoweledge as chiropratic doctor or similar). He became very popular. What a backache I have, after the long sitting in the bhatti, can you give me some relief, please? Will Dadi say it's OK? Will I get talked upon and slandered for that??

Definetely what is really inaccurate is trying to take advantage of such activities, and start selling massage oils as this creates karmic bondages with other Brahmins, and this should be avoided. Also lust-related commercial activity is vikarma! Watch out!

Hey, very wierd alladin!

Anyway, I am off to leave y'all in peace for a month (2 weeks Madhubhan; 2 weeks frantic work activity when I return) so have fun and thanks for all the interesting discussion so far .

About the effect sarees have on Brothers, they are generally considered sexier that kurtas (see through, tight, funny way of walking in them). Or there is a deeper subconscius message, example, surrender means in bed also. May be a cotton kurta pijama Sister is less feminine and more difficult to twist around in bed! However, I wouldn't trust someone who desguises herself or wears a "façade". Maybe for a one night stand, but not for a lifetime relationship!! Just joking, OK?

That's a problem with young and mid-aged BKs trying to suppress their sexual needs. They have all sorts of sexual fantasies. Good husband and wife, loving each other spiritually and physically (including sexually) have their needs far more fulfilled than any young Kumaris or Kumars. I guess sexual desires drop significantly only around late 40's for woman and early 60's for man. I am not sure about this cut-off period of time.

The Maryadas pertaining to sexual abstinence are only good for old people. If you are a young Kumar or Kumaris and want to follow the path of celibacy, your only choice is to touch yourself (less sinful so to say) whenever you have the attack of Maya or suppress the urge to release it. How do I know these? I have experienced these suppression, release and regulation of all these sexual desires. Not only experienced them, but also personally informed by the experience of close friends. Their experience were the same. So how can I say there is an exemption? Perhaps, only an abnormal person is an exemption. I have no guilt feelings because I followed and observed at least the path of religious conduct, and moral/ethical means.

My experience has made me more mentally stable and has satisfied a phase in my life.

P.S.
Admin,
Please feel free to move my entire post under an appropriate topic.

About the effect sarees have on Brothers, they are generally considered sexier that kurtas (see through, tight, funny way of walking in them). Or there is a deeper subconscius message, example, surrender means in bed also ... Just joking, OK?

To speak frankly, seeing an attractive woman in a sari--even in BK regulation white--was a turn-on, and daily "hazard" of my BK life, including and especially during Madhuban visits. I can also remember the feminine swishing sound when they would walk. I don't think there is anything the BKs could do to prevent this effect of a clean and well-groomed female on a sexually repressed/deprived male. These effects were intensified by steady eye contact, another BK practice, during which time pupils mutually dilate, and augmented by a warm smile, attractive white teeth.... I wonder if the women knew that I was practically putty in their hands?? I think they did.

Fact is, I am a sucker for any silky, shimmery, shiny fabric, especially when associated with a graceful female form. The living deity exhibits (usually attractive young women in shiny deity garb, who would often stay motionless in their poses for two or more hours) as well as any of the BK cultural program items portraying the Golden Age were a huge turn-on for me.

From what I know now, there was probably just as much attraction the other direction (not necessarily to me, but of women to men) that tends to receive less public acknowledgement.

I heard from Sisters and happened to notice it myself in Madhuban, passing by a room in training session, that sometimes Sisters indulge in very sensual long massage sessions. 1 to 1, group ones. ... At some stage there was a sweet, good looking, high class Brother in Madhuban that started massaging lots of Sisters. They had to stand in a line for it.

Hey!!! Any Sister need some relief??? I will happily ease your pain ...

I heard from Sisters and happened to notice it myself in Madhuban, passing by a room in training session, that sometimes Sisters indulge in very sensual long massage sessions. 1 to 1, group ones. ... At some stage there was a sweet, good looking, high class Brother in Madhuban that started massaging lots of Sisters. They had to stand in a line for it. Definitely what is really inaccurate is trying to take advantage of such activities, and start selling massage oils as this creates karmic bondages with other Brahmins, and this should be avoided.

Amazing. Not just that the BKs can recognize the body needs some maintainance but that they can actually lie there accepting pleasure through it when there are so many souls in the world still to be served!?! Stunning. All those chances to tell the world how much they have suffered but how Baba helped them over come their pain or illness lost because they actualy did someting practical about it!

So, just to give Mr Green complete Maya, are we talking about clothes off, oily Swedish style massage here or clothes on, sitting up acupressure type massage?

I know of one Senior BK herself that has submitted to such pleasurable and practical treatment and so would be in a difficult position to lay Shrimat down to stop it. Honestly, I would be shocked if there were BKs with such skils who were stopped from helping others but I know in the old days of the West it was so. It was quite a shell to crack ... to admit that soul consciousness and rememberance did not fix everything, which was the party line then. Everything else was Bhakti.

My, the Yagya is becoming worldly. If they had any sense, they would be opening up a health spa in Mount Abu (complete with counsellers and psychotherapists).

Well, if they ever invest in making a spa in Mount Abu, they will loose all their money because there's a lot of competition on the planet and many beautiful places one can go to. Even if they use their best marketing skills and personalities, whoever ended up there, would then sue them and ask for a refund.

It's no surprise indians massage each other because in all Asian countries that's the tradition. Japanese children learn very small how to massage aching limbs or backs of their grandfathers. Every ancient culture (even those considered primitive in the West, like Africans) have massage as a natural practise. African women massage their babies a lot.

Why the BK make a big deal about it, I don't know. The real motive must be "controlling others" once again otherwise how do explain exceptions and privileges? When I came in Gyan, I was into Eastern philosophies, martial arts and considering whether to learn Shiatzu. The SS discouraged me from doing that and one Sister I knew, that was a professional masseuse, was ORDERED to discontinue and get herself another job because of the same old reasons about bodyconsciousness ... etc.

She freaked out and soon left Gyan. Not much later though, I noticed some BK were allowed to do anything. So, bad luck if one fell in the fisherman's net, bad timing. The rules area is so blurry and abuse prone.

Well, if they ever invest in making a spa in Mount Abu, they will loose all their money because there's a lot of competition on the planet and many beautiful places one can go to. Even if they use their best marketing skills and personalities, whoever ended up there, would then sue them and ask for a refund.

Oh, I was just thinking tht they could milk all the BKs a little it more. Offer VIP hospitality features, like they do to a certain extent anyway.

Why the BK make a big deal about it, I don't know. The real motive must be "controlling others" once again otherwise how do explain exceptions and privileges? When I came in Gyan, I was into Eastern philosophies, martial arts and considering whether to learn Shiatzu. The SS discouraged me from doing that and one Sister I knew, that was a professional masseuse, was ORDERED to discontinue and get herself another job because of the same old reasons about bodyconsciousness ... etc. The rules area is so blurry and abuse prone.

Again, I can confirm your experiences with my own. That is how it is/was.

How high up did the orders come from? Was it like the Kirpalani Klan ... the Jayanti and Jankis of the BK world, or just a local Sister copying or taking orders from them?

If it was, then I know that the above take massages themselves. But then, "The Rules" are fluid according to the time of the month, weath and status, relationships with the Seniors etc.

To speak frankly, seeing an attractive woman in a sari--even in BK regulation white--was a turn-on, and daily "hazard" of my BK life, including and especially during Madhuban visits. I can also remember the feminine swishing sound when they would walk. I don't think there is anything the BKs could do to prevent this effect of a clean and well-groomed female on a sexually repressed/deprived male. These effects were intensified by steady eye contact, another BK practice, during which time pupils mutually dilate, and augmented by a warm smile, attractive white teeth.... I wonder if the women knew that I was practically putty in their hands?? I think they did.

Joel,

this is a bit of a recurring theme. Its off topic but the personal question is;

were you ever "soul-conscious" during your time with the Brahmakumaris?

The impersonal question is,

is anyone really "soul-conscious" or are they just hypnotized to think that they are on the basis on the freaky psychic experiences they have during "The Honeymoon Period" and for a few trips to see the Holy Ghost in Abu?

I suppose the on topic question is how conscious and deliberate is all this dressing up and where did it all start? The early pictures show the girls in school uniforms. Does it have its roots in the Murlis? Arjuna only ever proves quotes that are general and non-specific to what the Brahmakumaris are doing now.

Hey!!! Any Sister need some relief??? I will happily ease your pain ...

Join the queue Mr. Green. Maybe I missed out on that second visit to Madhuban. Anyway, must dash, I am starting a Swedish massage course tonight.

Definetely what is really inaccurate is trying to take advantage of such activities, and start selling massage oils as this creates karmic bondages with other Brahmins, and this should be avoided. Also lust-related commercial activity is vikarma! Watch out!

I remember ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) telling in one of the clarification Murlis or discussions that we should avoid massages/oil massages as it leads to lustful thoughts and I think it is quite true. A mud bath is more refreshing and beneficial than the massage.

I know of a PBK Brother who is a nature cure doctor. I once visited his hospital. He said that recently a few Sisters and a senior Brother from Mount Abu had stayed at his hospital for treatment. At that time they did not know that the doctor who was giving them treatment was a PBK. I did not ask that Brother the kind of treatments that the Sisters/Brother were given. That PBK Brother was probably given offers to open a nature cure hospital for the BKs, but he feared that if his secret gets revealed then they could harm him. So he declined the offer.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Love to all! ex-l: interesting question about soul-consciousness.

I think it's possible to experience it for real, at different percentages. In fact depends where my focus and time are. Usually, I forget to practise. In the beginning I tried really hard to make it constant. Then it became more natural, so careleness made it's way in. I took it for granted but it's not. It's something so unusual in Kaliyug and subtle (same as Baba's remembrance), that it can slip off easily if we don't protect it. Soul-consciousness is under constant siege from inside old habits and outside bombardments.

I guess Shrimat, and many Maryadas, are meant as a protection. The whole story about attire, physical contact etc ... reminds me of the big Taboo of "familiarity". Since it was very difficult to instill in double foreigners segregational behaviours such as Brothers and Sisters to sit separetely (see where this custom originates from, in India and some arab countries it's common to have separate schools and lines, allocate areas on public transports, beaches, baths, even skilifts etc.), the SS tried as usual not to explain the benefits or go into details but rather frighten us emphatizing the dangers and punishment in case one broke the rules.

It's this medieval method that I dissent from, not so much the instruction, and this system based on fear and repression, as somebody already noted, leads to increase body-consciousness. No wonder Baba says that dreams and desires you never had before would pop up! Anyway, I think full soul consciousnes is a goal, maybe utopian, but not just imagination. The more I practise it, the more I realize its benefits and the difference it makes one can see in practical situations, especially in the interaction with other living beings. Aren't anger, sadness, depression, worries, all connected with body-consciousness whereas peace and lightness do connect with spiritual consciousness!

I don't think this is another BK fraud or propaganda, it's the way the mind works, in simple terms of empiric psychology!

this is a bit of a recurring theme. Its off topic but the personal question is;

were you ever "soul-conscious" during your time with the Brahmakumaris?

At first I found I felt slightly ... ah ... slighted by your question. After all, why not just tell your own story?

I think I am choosing to write about supposedly non-soul-conscious feeling that were an unacknowledged and unspoken part of my BK experience. I did not have a voice for it before. Did not seem acceptable to speak about among the BKs.

It's something so unusual in Kaliyug and subtle (same as Baba's remembrance), that it can slip off easily if we don't protect it. Sc is under constant siege from inside old habits and outside bombardments. I guess srimat and many Maryadas are meant as a protection.

Good post. I agree with the above. In the Advanced Knowledge we PBKs are told and I have also experienced that food and company are two major factors that affect the soul consciousness. As is the food that we eat and as is the company we are in, so is our stage. Of course there can be exceptions in everything. But generally, the soul consciousness is affected by the above two factors besides others. And the more we practice it sincerely, the more benefits we get.

I know of a PBK Brother who is a nature cure doctor. I once visited his hospital. He said that recently a few Sisters and a senior Brother from Mount Abu had stayed at his hospital for treatment. At that time they did not know that the doctor who was giving them treatment was a PBK. I did not ask that Brother the kind of treatments that the Sisters/Brother were given. That PBK Brother was probably given offers to open a nature cure hospital for the BKs, but he feared that if his secret gets revealed then they could harm him. So he declined the offer.

I happened to talk to that Brother today and he told me that the Senior BK Sisters and Brother who came to his hospital had obtained massage treatment also, but from other hospital staff.

He also said that the BKs have opened a (Kerala type) Ayurvedic center, a naturopathy center at the Global Hospital in Mount Abu where massages are also offered as a treatment. But it would be better if any BK confirms this. He said that some surrendered BK Brothers had undergone some naturopathy courses to become qualified to give naturopathy treatment.

He also confirmed that in contrast to massages, the mud baths have an effect of reducing lustful thoughts.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

At first I found I felt slightly ... ah ... slighted by your question. After all, why not just tell your own story?

Let's try and keep it framed within the topic and Alladin's interesting comments about the Maryadas. It was not meant to be a personal attack, just a very honest questioning of an experience we were all meant to be having and selling.

I don't know any more about my experiences nor the group as a whole. I was utterly shocked to find out many years after leaving that other souls that I thought were mainstay uber-yogis, and who in one case were paying the center's mortgages, were having absolutely no experiences at all. I, and others, had interesting experiences sitting, and now and then incidental ones when we were out walking or when BapDada came. They might just be psychic or hypnotic, I have no idea, but we were lead to interpret them as being "soul-conscious" and that being "soul-conscious" would magically remove all ailments immediately. It patently not true. The rest of the time, they were just human beings, following a ritual, making the right noises.

What we are recognizing here is that there is an emphasis on making the right noises and doing the right actions ... from the outside in ... even if they are completely nonsensical and damaging. There are no emperic, before-and-after, "soul-o-meters" test, e.g. "BK Brite" before a massage and after a massage. Are the Seniors really having such a different experience in day to day life? I doubt it. If what we see from the product of Janki 70s years later ... I'd say it was not worth the effort.

And so, within the topic, to miss out on having a back rub, a hug or touching was pretty much a waste of years that made no real difference at all. I, we were living within the limits of their fears, superstitions and cultural baggage. And recognising that the Seniors who were then pushing this rote are now indulging themselves in forbidden fruit, makes me think unprintable comments. Give it a few more years and we might be able to discuss with them what it was all about.

I say we are just honest and start the "shooting period" of the "Left-hand Path" for next Kalpa. Leave the Krishna-Gopi worshipping to BK bhagats, let us go off in the Copper Age and become ash-covered, sky-clad Digambars, meditate on the bellies of graveyard corpse at full-moon and then end up in the Iron Age watching mud wrestling. (This is all metaphorical, you know).

My experience is that I can remember giving a very senior Brother a topless back massage (i.e. he was, I was not) but that I can remember being scared rigid at entering "ambiguous" areas such as Sisters' houses, or centers, at the wrong time of day or in the wrong areas by mistake - never mind entering spaces of human contact. You were not meant to be in a center or Sisters' house when they were likely to be sleeping or showering ... I guess the SS were afraid that you rush in and jump on them out of unrequited lust.

• As an aside, Arjuna, the 'Digamber Jains' came up in the Murli on many ocassions, if they have an Advanced meaning within the BK family for the PBKs, what is it?