Who declared that Shiva has gone back to Paramdham

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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john

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Shiva and Drama

Post30 Sep 2006

If the world drama repeats identically, then is any role needed from Shiva apart from to teach purity and take souls up to their full potential at the Confluence Age. I am thinking that does Shiva need to do anything else?

In other religions, it is taught how God creates the world. The whole Universe even. Yet according to The Knowledge delivered by Shiva, all this is taken care of by the repeating Drama of souls, matter and nature.

What I mean is, is Shiva just a 100% pure and powerful soul who comes into the world Drama to teach us the same and the rest is all preprogrammed? If so then a lot of the abilties attributed to God from other religious teachings are actually just part of the Drama. To understand the true nature of Shiva, I think it's also important to understand what he doesn't or cannot do.

bansy

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Post30 Sep 2006

To understand the true nature of Shiva I think it's also important to understand what he doesn't or cannot do.

Yes, why is He here ... for such a short time ?

I've always wondered why the drama is not simply 2500 years and 1 second and then destruction, so that the world simply remains in bliss. Why have Copper and Iron when can just have Gold and Silver for all eternity. Or simply just Gold, cut The Cycle to 1250 years, parties and dancing forever.

So what does Shiva do for 4900 years, other than watching us, His children, suffer for half that time. Which kinds of leads back to the next basic question after "who am I" is ... "why am I here" ?

Questions questions ... why why ... Wah Wah. To be and not to be. :lol:

freefall

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Post15 Oct 2006

Hey, wait a minute!

Somebody told me that he got a new revelation from Shiva directly that there are in fact six ages including lead and nickle in addition to the four taught by the BKs.

Is there any good reason for us to doubt this new revelation and continue with the old knowledge?
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john

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Post16 Oct 2006

Freefall wrote:Is there any good reason for us to doubt this new revelation and continue with the old knowledge?

None at all, we can believe what we like.

Actually though your post is one of ridicule, there are actually splinter groups (ex-BK) with different ideas of how The Knowledge from Murlis is interpreted.

One being PBKs; http://geocities.com/meditation_bk/advanced.htm

and another being the Vishnu Party; http://www.discoveryofnewworld.com/
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andrey

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Post18 Oct 2006

Dear Brother freefall,
Where would this six age come from? How long will this world continue, how more of suffering, population, violence, starvation, and illnesses. You have just made up this New Age as a new joke. But we have not studied from any human being, is this funny? There are five ages and the one we are now is called the diamond age. Shiva does not give revelations like this to anyone. He comes in one only.

freefall

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Post18 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:Where would this six age come from? How long will this world continue, how more of suffering, population, violence, starvation, and illnesses. You have just made up this New Age as a new joke.

OK. Guilty as charged. But is my new 6-age joke any worse than the old 4-age joke?
There are five ages and the one we are now is called the diamond age. Shiva does not give revelations like this to anyone. He comes in one only.

Again I have disagreement here. We are in Diamond-1 age; not just Diamond. And Diamond-2 age is yet to come.

The point is I can keep on making perfectly illogical (or should I say supra-logical :D ) statements as long as I can decieve people in believing that there is a Shiva Baba who speaks through me!
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andrey

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Post19 Oct 2006

You should convince others that you, yourself, are ShivBaba, not that He speaks through you. He himself comes and speaks. We can believe if The Knowledge is true. Why do you think 4 age is a joke? Everything passes through these four stages, it is logical. If we say there is no karma, then we do whatever we like and nothing matters. it is even more illogical. If there is a karma law of cause and effect, then what is the cause of the first effect and what was this first cause an effect of. /the hen and the egg question/ so it is a cycle and one thing lead to the next to the next to the first, to the second to the tenth to the last, to the first.

By the way the asnwer to the question that if everything is already fixed then why do BKs do effort is that it is because they did in the last cycle. If in the last cycle they have done efferts, then how would they fail to do in this one?
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ex-l

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Post19 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:You should convince others that you yourself is ShivBaba, not that He speaks through you. He himself comes and speaks. We can belive if The Knowledge is true. Why do you think 4 age is a joke?

Andrey,
    does God have a sense of humor at all? Should we not become like him in all ways? For his sake, please lighten up a bit.
I remember one story about BB of how he went up to some Sister and wanted to give her dhristi and toli. After the dhristi he reached out to give the toli but when he dropped it in her hand it was one or two dead flies. Does anyone else remember that or know what the signficance was?
    • Logic and Karma
And it is not logical that if there "is no karma, then we do whatever we like". Individuals have freedom of choice and personal ethics. This is, for example, the position of humanists that believe in neither.

It is a different topic but no one has been able to explain to me WHERE karma is. That is to say, if it exists, where is it and how does it work upon us and drama. Is it external to souls, between two souls in some unspoken spiritual element, held in drama in some unexplained natural element, is it exact and precise or general, how does it work?

Like most of what you write, it is just belief and faith in those beliefs and there is no logical proof of them at all. I am not saying that they may not be true. We do not know. We cannot know, only gamble our lives on illogical faiths. When that illogic is challenged by the clear mirror of reason, we attempt to write all over it in order to hide it.

So pleases, start a new topic and explain the mechanics, not faith, of karma.
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john

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Post19 Oct 2006

ex-l wrote:does God have a sense of humor at all? Should we not become like him in all ways? For his sake, please lighten up a bit.

hear hear!

Anyway some Godly humour:

A Dadi said to Baba, we want you come in the Golden Age because we will miss you.
Baba replied teasingly, when you get there call me and I'll come.

When asked if all will be emperors in Golden Age Baba replied ... how can that happen, will you sit on each others heads on the throne.

freefall

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Post19 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:You should convince others that you yourself is ShivBaba, not that He speaks through you. He himself comes and speaks. We can belive if The Knowledge is true.

And what methodology do you use to decide if The Knowledge is true? It is true because it is coming from ShivBaba; it is coming from ShivBaba because The Knowledge says so..
Why do you think 4 age is a joke?

For the same reason you think that 6 age is a joke.
Everything passes through these four stages, it is logical.

Mere assertion is no substitute for logic. And what do you mean by everything anyways? Give me the logic why everything has to pass through the four stages and I will show you how the same logic can be extended to 6 stages.
If we say there is no karma, then we do whatever we like and nothing matters. it is even more illogical.

Is it? How many people in the world believe in the Law of Karma? Do they just go out and start doing whatever they feel like because nothing matters? You may find it hard to believe but there are many people in this world who are very good human beings despite never having heard of the Law of Karma.
and If there is a karma law of cause and effect, then what is the cause of the first effect and what was this first cause an effect of. /the hen and the egg question/ so it is a cycle and one thing lead to the next to the next to the first, to the second to the tenth to the last, to the first.

Why not use Occam's razor instead? Drop the assumptions that do not help you explain anything. Useless assumptions only create complications down the line.
By the way the asnwer to the question that if everything is already fixed then why do BKs do effort is that it is because they did in the last cycle. If in the last cycle they have done efferts, then how would they fail to do in this one?

Perfectly fine. Now tell me where do you insert the Law of Karma.

You said: "If we say there is no karma, then we do whatever we like and nothing matters." implying that reflecting on Law of Karma helps us to avoid bad choices.

However now you are saying that we don't really have a choice. In that case does belief in karma help me to explain anything? Why add another assumption that does not explain anything?
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andrey

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Post20 Oct 2006

4 stages - of the moon, seasons, human life, the day. If you take 12 than 6 it is more likely thet the digit would fit for explanation.

For me the Law of Karma is connected with the soul and how it is influenced by what he does. It is said that what works in an action is not the action itself but the internal feeling and this is what brings results. Due to these we have made many relationships with many souls in the course of time.

One soul is not bonded by this influence and He comes and teaches the human souls how to get out of these bondages too /beacuse actions are neutral (akarma) in the Golden Age, Silver Age/ It is because when the action is performed in soul conciousness it does not bring any result.

Yes, we have no choice. Choice is already made. We just follow, but due to the course of following if we don't accept, like our role, our actions we indebt ourself with bad karma. We cannot change the world, the drama or our role, we can change the way we play our role. If we see our role as a role, detached, we play OK, then happiness comes. If we like someting more then something else and we don't receive it, we get angry. Why? This is lack of common sense. If we accept drama is good for us, better then we can think and create if for ourself, we live happily. If we deny our role, the drama, The Knowledge, the Soul, the Supreme sou. We just go to wander to palces where we won't find rest. So again it comes to positive and negative mind.

Peace of mind is original religion of the soul. We just reach that and the world becomes OK. What is the aim of philosophy? It is to explain the world so that we may understand it and improve our living, live in harmony. So this is the way. This is the one who brings peace and this is The Knowledge that brings answers.

freefall

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Post20 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:4 stages - of the moon, seasons, human life, the day. If you take 12 than 6 it is more likely thet the digit would fit for explanation.

4 stages of the moon? Really? Kindly enlighten me.

As far as the seasons are concerned, in India you will find three seasons, in tropical 6 will be more accurate. About human life you can break it in 1, 2, 4, or 6 stages or whatever number you fancy.

Yes, we have no choice, Choice is already made. We just follow, but due to the course of following if we don't accept, like our role, our actions we indebt ourself with bad karma.

The contradiction starts here and goes on becoming more and more bizarre at every step. Let us see..

How can we not accept or not like our role if we did so 5000 years ago and vice versa? If we liked it 5000 years ago, we will like it again; if not, we won't this time either.
We cannot change the world, the drama or our role, we can change the way we play our role.

Hello!..How can we change it this time unless we did so 5000 years ago?
If we see our role as a role, detached, we play OK, then happiness comes.

Not at all. You forget that happiness comes because it came 5000 years ago.
If we like someting more then something else and we don't receive it, we get angry. Why?

Easy...because we got angry 5000 years ago..
This is lack of common sense.

There you are! It is complete lack of common sense!!
If we accept drama is good for us, better then we can think and create if for ourself, we live happily. If we deny our role, the drama, The Knowledge, the Soul, the Supreme sou. We just go to wander to palces where we won't find rest. So again it comes to positive and negative mind.

It does not come to positive and negative mind, dear sir. It comes to "5000 years" stupidity.

Think of that -- accepting or not accepting the drama is not in your control. It is repeated exactly in 5000 years cycle. Same goes about wandering places and not finding rest. Now what are you talking here? Forget about acceptance/ non-acceptance and all that BS. It is bound to be repeated exactly. is not it?
Peace of mind is original religion of the soul. We just reach that and the world becomes OK.

Ah, sir!...How can the world become OK ever? It will continue to be repeated exactly like this every 5000 years. Won't it?
What is the aim of philosophy. It is to explain the world so that we may understand it and improve our living, live in harmony.

Any harmony based on falsehood cannot last. World does not care for our invented stories. If we understand the world through stories, then we have not understood anything.

And before I forget...Even as per your stories you cannot bring harmony unless it was already there 5000 years ago.
So this is the way. This is the one who brings peace and this is The Knowledge that brings answers.

Faith is different from knowledge. Faith is emotional conviction of truth. It may provide you a comfortable world view; but comfort of a world view is not sufficient to conclude that it corresponds to the reality.
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andrey

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Post20 Oct 2006

Dear Brother,

We don't know what our role is like, that's why we act in the best positive way. We can also have positive thoughts that our role is the best of all. Can you deny that one can consiously create thoughts? We can create thoughts, is it not? So we create good, positive thoughts about ourselves, the drama etc. There is no loss in this, no true or lie. Would you agree that good thoughts bring good feelings etc. So this is our part.

It was just to add that the first cause then appears the one who is not bonded in the karma and makes others free too.

And there is also this relation that the more one has performed devotion, the more one receives knowledge.

freefall

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Post20 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:Can you deny that one can consiously create thoughts? We can create thoughts, is it not?

I don't deny that ... And that is why I am out of this whole nonsense that tells me that I can have only those thoughts that occurred to me 5000 years ago.
It was just to add that the first cause then appears the one who is not bonded in the karma and makes others free too.

Stories after stories after stories ... you encounter a logical contradiction ... and here comes the story to plug the gap ... which leads to another contradiction. No problem. Here comes another story to plug the gap ... which leads to another ...

Get my point? There is no end to human ingenuity nor human gullibility.
And there is also this relation that the more one has performed devotion, the more one receives knowledge.

Wrong! Completely wrong!!

One performs only that much devotion that one did 5000 years ago and receives only as much knowledge as one received 5000 years ago.

Whom are we fooling here, sir?
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andrey

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Post21 Oct 2006

One performs only that much devotion that one did 5000 years ago and receives only as much knowledge as one received 5000 years ago.

Of course, but then why do some take more knowledge then others? Why does someone makes more effort than others. How do we know who are we - the one who make good effort or slack effort? So these are all subtle signs to know ones part, e.g. souls belonging to a particular category would be having particular qualities, they would have made particular actions in the past. Our aim is to know our part. If we are souls and not these bodies and we have taken one body after another but still remain the same soul, then there should be rememberance for all these parts.

What do you say? That the whole knowledge is a joke or only the four parts of The Cycle? That they are not 4 but more or that there is not cycle at all? Because only saying that it is false is not enough. You should also tell what is true.

For me it is very different from everything. e.g. science has very different approach. It tries to come to know things from a point of view of being ignorant. Here this knowledge comes form an authority who claims himself to be knowledgeful, without study. This is new.

but this way it appears that Baba is very busy, but no he is never busy for his children, he is eager to hear news, how do we do etc ... like the film star likes receiveing letters etc, but here it is even a matter of relationship of children and Father. Baba has said we should never think he is busy...
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