Who declared that Shiva has gone back to Paramdham

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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john

reforming BK

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Post01 Feb 2007

I have to agree with Sparkal. I don't see how that amount of change can be faked.

Freefall, have you actually witnessed the incarnation close up in person?
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ex-l

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Post01 Feb 2007

John wrote:I have to agree with Sparkal. I don't see how that amount of change can be faked.

Even I would agree. I agree 'something' is going, some kind of voodoo or spookery. I will be very happy for my doubt of its nature and intentions to be proven wrong. Even in that case, I think that I will be better rewarded for having taken a critical, refusenik approach to the BKWSU than having unquestioning surrendered to the BKWSU leaders and their perversion of the path.

freefall

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Post01 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:Even I would agree. I agree 'something' is going, some kind of voodoo or spookery.

I grew up in a small village in India. I have personally seen a few incidents where a 'spirit' came on someone and s/he started behaving strangely. A substantial number of village folks claimed that they had seen ghosts or jinns etc. These things were considered 'in'. Did such things really happen? I doubt. Were all of them lying? Probably not. There have been any number of experiments confirming mind's enormous power to delude itself. It is well established that mental delusions can produce convincing somatic symptoms.
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tinydot

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Post02 Feb 2007

I had experienced in my childhood where two of our housemaids were doing some spirit channeling. One day, those housemaids were doing some channelling whilst both of my parents were out of the house for work. Surprisingly, after about fifteen minutes of this "ritual prayer", I saw one maid lost her consciousness and she fell from her sitting position, her back and head hit the hard wooden floor. She collapsed. Then after few minutes, she started reciting some words as the other maid tried to lift her up and made her stand up. She did even recite some prayers and up to now I still remember those words. Though I don't understand the meaning of those phrases she uttered. It was very unusual behavior and I even noticed the transition to getting back to her normal behavior by her facial expression and by communicating to the other maid normally as soon as she got from that "possessed state" after about some 30 minutes. I got really scared being only about 8 years old.

She could have been possessed by some spirit, or as Freefall had said, she could be totally delusional. Both hypotheses for me are valid explanations.
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ex-l

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Post02 Feb 2007

tinydot wrote:She could have been possessed by some spirit, or as Freefall had said, she could be totally delusional. Both hypotheses for me are valid explanations.

Or she could have accessed and be expressing part of herself that normally she and we don't ...
Or she could have accessed and be expressing "something in the ether", some part of the collective unconscious, i.e. something that was not human or another individual entity ...

Just theories, I am sure that all the options have been documented by certain Buddhist or Hindu schools.

This thread is headed off toward the "psychic aspects" thread elsewhere.
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arjun

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Post02 Feb 2007

Sparkal wrote:Why is it necessary to enter a souls body in order to use its mind/intellect?

Although PBKs, like the BKs believe in the entry of souls into others' bodies, but as per the Advanced Knowledge being given by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) it is also possible for a soul to enter into someone's body through mind/intellect, i.e. to control the mind/intellect of other individuals (without actually entering into the body).
There is a change in Gulzar at that time, the whole vibe and air, the manner in which she holds herself, the beaming through the face, and, there is no need for her to fake it anyway, whats the big deal about souls communicating with us through another?

I agree that some or the other soul does enter into the body of Gulzar Dadiji and temporarily controls her body and brings about the same physical changes every time it enters into her body (from 1969 till date, although the frequency has been decreasing regularly). Now, there may be a difference of opinion as to who enters (whether Shiv or Brahma or both), but one thing is sure that some soul does enter.

I have seen her speaking both at the time of entry of Avyakt BapDada and without Avyakt BapDada from close quarters and on many occasions. There is a lot of difference in both the situations. If a BK has resources, he/she can upload a few minutes of the videography of Avyakt BapDada speaking through Gulzar Dadi and a few minutes of the video of Gulzar Dadi speaking on her own (in a BK class or public programme). I think it should not be difficult to obtain these two kinds of videos.

Regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun
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andrey

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Post17 Feb 2007

They say He /God/ is not everywhere, but is Paramdaham a specific place he is in. Is there a corporeal personality he works through right now. If it is said he works through all of us, it is like making him omnipresent. It should be said the one chosen personality he works through. Who is he?

It is said that he is not omnipresent but his rememberance becomes omnipresent. In each soul his rememberance becomes present.
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proy

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Post23 Feb 2007

Andrey wrote:They say He /God/ is not everywhere, but is Paramdaham a specific place he is in.

Only if the He/God you refer to is the BK version of Shiva. This is proof enough for me that the BK Shiva is not in fact God but a Luciferic spirit.
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andrey

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Post23 Feb 2007

So the God you know is everywhere?
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proy

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Re: Who declared that Shiva has gone back to Paramdham

Post23 Feb 2007

Hi Andrey. Sorry, I realise I was off topic here. John's question was
John wrote:Exactly where does it say Shiva has returned to Paramdham after 1969?

So my own feeling of who God or Shiva are is not part of this thread.
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andrey

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Post23 Feb 2007

I was also off topic.

In the Murli it says he returns to Paramdham after establishing heaven. He comes from Paramdham so after Brahma Baba goes away, if there were no visible corporeal Chariot, if they don't accept there could be any other Chariot ... but in the Murli versions it is said that we'll stay together and return together, temporary and permanent Chariot and other things, but if there is no meaning given to these things, what will they say to students. Even if they don't say directly, that he has returned to Paramdham they don't say where is he.

It is said we should not even remember Brahma Baba, but it is only my guess that some may think that Shiva is in the subtle body of Brahma in the Subtle Region, and they can remember that. But in the Murli it is said i don't come in a Subtle Region dweller, but i come in the corporeal and in the ordinary impure body. Based on many of these things it becomes obvious whether one follows the Murli or follows other peoples ideas.

It is only my opinion that the idea that he has returned to Paramdhan has been invented soon or immediately after Barahma Baba leaves. Now also pictures of a point of light are given in the form of God. Whereas in one of the first Avyakt Vanis it is said that he has just changed the palce of service, the same way we do. Now should this be interpreted that he does subtle service in the Subtle Region? It will contradict the Murli. Murlis and Avyakt Vanis don't contradict, because Brahma Baba used to be surrendered, so his versions go along with the versions of the Murli. Clarifications are done to both the Murlis and the Avyakt Vanis.

OK ... the question is who declared it. Was it collective or someone declared first. Maybe no one declared directly, but slowly as things go on the one who sits on the throne - he cannot say he is in me, so he says he is in Paramdham.

When Brahma Baba used to be alive no one would claim at that time that Shiva can work through them The idea that he is in Paramdham can be very easily used to say he can work through anyone. When there is no one in a fixed form, he can use anyone. However He says i don't come as omnipresent - in everyone - but as present in one and this is not Dada Lekraj.
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