The Brahmakumaris' adoption of Bhakti rituals

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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arjun

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Post18 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:• And how does the BKWSU come to terms with Western virtues or intelligence so obviously not born of itself?

Avyakt BapDada has praised many of the virtues of the souls from the foreign countries, the main virtue being transparency, truthfulness. I don't have the exact quotation of Avyakt Vani regarding these virtues, but I do have the following quotation from an Avyakt Vani dated 22.2.84, pg.112 published by BKs in English which is very much relevant to this thread:

"BapDada has special love for his double foreigner children. His love is not selfish love but it comes form the heart. You know the reason why, don't you? You have been told several times before also. BapDada had told you about a very old song, "I have crossed all the big walls..." this is the song of the double foreigners, is not it? Haven't you crossed the big seas as well as the high walls of religions, lands, languages and become the children of the Father? So, this song is for you, is not it? This is why you are loved so much. The Bharatwasis were the worshippers of the deities even beforehand. They had not to cross the big walls. But you double foreigners have crossed these high walls, and that you also did quite easily. This is why BapDada sings the song of the specialities of the double foreigner children from His heart. Sumjha? He does not sing just to please you. Many children entertain themselves by saying that BapDada just wants to please everyone. Does BapDada praise you just to please you? No. He praises you for a reason, not just like that. You can also ask yourself, "Does BapDada really mean that, or is he just trying to please me?" What do you think? Haven't you crossed all the high walls and come here? See after so much labour, you buy a ticket to come here. The moment you return you start to gather money for the ticket. For all the twelve months you gather it. So BapDada is very happy on seing the great love the children have and what methods they use to reach here. Ask those in distant lands how they reach here.Who has made the greatest effort to reach here? BapDada hears all the wonderful stories you tell each other about how you reached here. Don't worry. Baba knows everything."

Regards,
On Godly Service,
Arjun

freefall

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Post19 Feb 2007

I have often wondered what makes westerners get attracted to BK.

In my case, it was not so unusual. I was born in India as a Hindu but lived most of my life outside India. As common among immigrants, I had a sense of rootlessness. Then came BK. It sounded Indian, used Hindu vocabulary and looked vaguely familiar. Getting into Gyan seemed a logical progression for me. For 'double foreigners', everything is alien. Moreover, BK Gyan lacks intellectual sophistication of other Eastern philosphies such as Advaita Vedanta or Buddhism. Add to it, the pointless arrogance of BK Brahmins about India and Hinduism and I don't see any reason why a non-Indian, non-Hindu should get attracted to BK, unless s/he is a confirmed masochist. Maybe people on this forum can throw light on this.

As far as the debate between BK and PBK is concerned, the less said the better. All it boils down to is: "my brand of nonsense is better than yours".
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ex-l

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Post19 Feb 2007

freefall wrote:I don't see any reason why a non-Indian, non-Hindu should get attracted to BK, unless s/he is a confirmed masochist. Maybe people on this forum can throw light on this.

Personally, I thought it WAS classical Raja Yoga, Vedanta or something similar. I had read the Gita, Paramhansa's biography and so on, and was seeking the yogic path. It takes while to realize that it was not. One has no perameters by which to judge and there is the romantic attraction to "The Mystic East" which they exploit. Like you say, the language and culture are Hindu based. To a Westerner, how on earth could we tell if it was not the real thing.

By that time, all the social connections, the love bombing and Honeymoon Period kick in ... until two, three, ten years later you wake up after a fairly long period of denial, finally accept what is really going on. There are also pretty wide divides between the Western and Inida communities, not just geographic or linguistic.

I'd even guess that leaving for Western BKs is harder because of, firstly, that lingering doubt it is "God" and the cultural differences of stepping back into Western Society rather than Hindu society.

Do you think any BKs are caste Brahmins, if so what proportion for which caste?
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abrahma kumar

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Post19 Feb 2007

I'd even guess that leaving for Western BKs is harder because of, firstly, that lingering doubt it is "God"

Worthy point Ex-I as I would also guess that for many Western BK's the teachings attributed to God Shiva via BapDada do - eventually if not from the very outset - become an intrinsic part of their lives. Plus the experiences and realisations through meditating 'on' that Being. The whole issue of the 're-cognition' of God as presented in the BKWSU's teachings must also play a strong part in the 'difficulty to leave' phenomena that some must experience. Where to next if one is/has been searcing for a compelling experience of God in their lives? Then I suppose that for most Westerners there would have been some sort of 'distancing' from the world at large, not to mention the lokik's. How to redress that 'imbalance' especially if one's wholehearted opting into the BK's in the first place had been the cause of family friction? And even if the loved one's may have been fully supportive of the BKWSU take-up it must be a challenge of an altogether different dimension to leave. Jeez!

So all-round in leaving one could find ones-self in a bind. Same must also be true of the Brahatwasis even though the BKWSUs teachings are still somewhat in context with certain aspects of Hinduism etc. All round though the BKWSU ethos does not provide any sort of 'support' for exiters.

I mentioned elsewhere in the forum a Murli point I heard in which leaving was likened to 'taking an axe to one's foot'. The psychological pressure exerted upon a soul by certain teachings contained in the Murli is enormous even though very, very subtle. Imagine if for years one had taken sustenance in personally affirming that such a misfortune would never befall oneself. It must leave one in the most frightening limbo. However once a certain chink appears in the mindset of a BKWSU student then leaving may become inevitable irregardless of how long the process takes. One can hardly discuss these things in-house because the entire set-up is based on progressing deeper and deeper into the BKWSU closed-circuit. But is this different from any other sort of 'powerful club'?

Nowadays i shudder at what a soul who has been part of that organisation for decades - especially if from childhood - must go through once the need to leave becomes a compelling one. Which is why the recent introduction of a 'youth' part of the forum is a great idea.
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ex-l

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Post19 Feb 2007

Abrahma Kumar wrote:I would also guess that for many Western BK's the teachings attributed to God ...

I should have made something more clear ... "God" especially given our all dominating monotheistic religious tradition on one hand, as in;
The Bible it is wrote:"I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me, I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the sins of parents" ... etc.

and our general lack of awareness, until recently, of channelling and trance mediumship. Most of witch [sister in charge] was burned, drowned or ethnically cleansed out in the Middle Ages.

If you put those two together you have a big insecure basis on which to build a new religion. I suspect, but do not know, that within the pluralistic, polytheistic Hindu tradition it is much easier to bail out and mentally deny the BK's god is only one god, or one path to the one God, amongst many.

bansy

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Post19 Feb 2007

I have often wondered what makes westerners get attracted to BK.

Not sure how to answer to this yet. I guess it could be almost similar to why "Easterners" get attracted to Western culture.

I think it is a desire to be "all round", not just to be in your own corner of the world but to look through a telescope rather than a microsope. I haven't got into the BKs as much as others on the forum have, I think it depends on what you value as "richness" in your own worldy culture to be able to also appreciate and experience other cultures.

Many a times I have also heard that fully surrendering would enable you to travel and "see the rest of world" via BK service and giving the message. Hence a true traveller-voyager.

I actually never thought BK was thought to be as "Hindu" or "Indian" as being discussed here until coming onto this forum. Maybe the Indian BKs I've come across never struck me to be to be "very Indian", given their Western sanskars and upbringing. The Indian BKs who seemed to be "Indian" (if that makes sense) are those who cannot speak or have poor English.

freefall

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Post19 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:I suspect, but do not know, that within the pluralistic, polytheistic Hindu tradition it is much easier to bail out and mentally deny the BK's god is only one god, or one path to the one God, amongst many.

You are quite right. Hinduism is more an assemblage of several sects than a unified religion. I think it is inevitable for religions that have evolved (as against revealed) and not based on a single prophet. There are some sects in Hinduism which are monotheistic, some non-dualists, some polytheists and some even atheists. But the majority of Hindus are hardly bothered (and hardly know) about such differences. They will bow in front of anything considered sacred by just anyone.

Just as in your case, I also had approached BK to learn vedanta. I was introduced to a Senior Sister who was a "scholar" of Vedanta. I was told that first I needed to purify my mind before I learnt Vedanta. It was only after I was deeply into BK that she told me that Vedantins had actually screwed up the teachings of Upanishads. She claimed that Advaita Vedanta was invented by Shankaracharya to misguide gullible people and I was fortunate to learn the correct teachings directly from Shiva.
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sparkal

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Post20 Feb 2007

I would like to repeat that Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit is not our guru but our spiritual Father through whom we meet and listen to ShivBaba.

I am not trying to push the PBKs out, but lets not avoid the original question or lose track of the topic. The quote above kind of says part of what I am getting at. If Dixit is your spiritual Father, who is Shiva? I don't think there is any need to talk of people leaving the forum.

Indeed, it merely changes the subject. This thread is not a personal attack on anyone and it is dis respect to myself to think that it is. The question of Indian cults and Gurus is a valid one which needs to be discussed. Me attacking the PBKs (apparently) is another thread. The PBKs just happen to be on hand and I know little or nothing about the Vishnu Party, which kind of justifies this thread. So where is it all going? Many others will be glad to see this thread, I say what others are thinking to some degree. I feel no guilt or shame and owe no one an apology.

Gone are the days of blind innocent, yet ignorant faith. We want to know, and we want to move forward. I reserve the right to stir things up. 8)
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abrahma kumar

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Post20 Feb 2007

Hey Sparkal welcome back and there has been much more on the forum - besides this particular thread - which makes your post and the above quote very, very relevant.
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ex-l

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Post21 Feb 2007

freefall wrote:Just as in your case, I also had approached BK to learn vedanta. I was introduced to a Senior Sister who was a "scholar" of Vedanta. I was told that first I needed to purify my mind before I learnt Vedanta. It was only after I was deeply into BK that she told me that Vedantins had actually screwed up the teachings of Upanishads. She claimed that Advaita Vedanta was invented by Shankaracharya to misguide gullible people and I was fortunate to learn the correct teachings directly from Shiva.

Can I ask you honestly, did what you say happened happen literally as you have reported? Is this how it happens in India?

Its a wonder because you were, in essence, inducted by a lie. A patronising lie at that too.

Knowing them, knowing Gyan, knowing the way the system works, I would not be surprised. I just wanted to hear it for sure.

As we see, most if not all folks coming to the BKs are good people, if in a weak state sometimes. It seems like one by one they are hooked on a variety of lies. And then sustained on a variety of lies. I am not questioning the God aspect here, nor the experience aspect because I know there are experience to be had and there is love form within the community. But the senior BKs, especially through their quite conscious re-writing and editing out of The Knowledge, seem to be sustaining and extending whatever it is they have built on the basis of little lie after lie. This is especially true of their high profile public service. It is all one big lie in my opinion. They will say and agree with anything remotely religious just to sustain and increase their influence and control!

One of the biggest and most regular lies is that BK Raja Yoga is "Ancient Raja Yoga".

This is a quite deliberatley confusing lie that we have seen the 'star' BKs likes of BK Jayanti of London, Mike George, Brian Bacon, Nikki de Carteret all trot out. (Or was because these service plans change seasonally and as we have flagged it up here, they might be removing it and stoping).

We know what they mean. They mean that according to their god, it was taught 5,000 years ago and that 5,000 years is as old as anything can be. But at the same time, as intelligent human beings with an eye for "personal branding", they know it both confuses and appeals to the mind of non-BKs because of the high repute of the 'real' ancient Raja Yoga of Patanjali (200 to 400 BC).

If we analyse this, the BKWSU and its leaders lie to confuse non-BKs to steal an advantage from the work and reputation of someone or something else to promote their own businesses. And in the case of Mike George, Brian Bacon, Nikki de Carteret, these are all businesses. We have seen each one incorporate this into their marketing.

In the case of BK Jayanti, of course, her "business" is her status within the UN etc and the BKWSU family. I call it the family business of the Kirpalani Klan (its a bit confusing to we English speakers because there are Kirpalanis and Kripalanis, can someone confirm if they are the same?) because so many of the leaders all came form the same family bound community Lekhraj K, Janki K, Jayanti K ... how closely related are they?

I ask honestly, what status should be afforded to someone that willfully lies to confuse others to promote a Godly truth and how else would that sanskar manifest?

I would also like to state that I have no personal emnity towards any of thse individuals. I am wholly compassionate towards individual trying to find themselves within a community or system that has become corrupt. They are like children in a corrupt family, what they understand goodness to be is actually corruption and so they follow that. From my own experience, I can imagine the service meetings where it was discussed and agreed to use such marketing.

This is the problem of engaging one's self in a sect or cult-like envirnment. Out of good intent, one attempts to align one's values to those of the cult and those collective values are determined by the leaders' values. As are the kings, so are the kingdoms. In other threads we have examined the morals and values of some of the leaders, especially where coverups of abuse or finances are involved.

The leaders of the BKWSU defend themselves to their followers so easily ... they have pure minds, non-BKs have impure minds. They are the true Brahmins, all non-BKs are ignorant Shudras and ex-BK are the Lowest of the Low. They have total Godly authority, junior BKs have none ... and can be banished if they question too much.

For the Seniors it is perfect, as long as they repeating the Sakar Murlis and keep moving the goal posts, the junior BKs will always be in a position of programmed insecurity and dependency. As long as the Seniors keep feeding the juniors with stories of their "war victories", e.g. what status they have, what famous person they met, what "VIP" they can pull to their conferences that the juniors pay for; the juniors will feel they are part of something important. Its a wonder ...
but it has become a cult.

freefall

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Post21 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:Can I ask you honestly, did what you say happened happen literally as you have reported? Is this how it happens in India?

I do not know if it always happens so in India. I was there on a long vacation and it happened with me.
Its a wonder because you were, in essence, inducted by a lie. A patronising lie at that too.

And mischievous too. I remember how this "scholar" of Vedanta heaped ridicule on Shankaracharya's interpretation of "aham brahmaasmi" (I am Brahman). She argued that if "I am Brahman" then why I was still searching for happiness. She told me that the real meaning of Upanishadic teaching was that Shiva is declaring "I am Brahman".

Anyone who has studied Vedanta 101, knows that her interpretation was a load of non-sense. However, I did not know it. Honestly, by that time, I was so deep in Gyan that I hardly cared what Shankaracharya meant. Moreover, in Hinduism, Shankaracharya is considered an incarnation of Shiva and I thought that I was getting teachings directly from Shiva instead of his incarnation.
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arjun

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Post22 Feb 2007

Sparkal wrote:I am not trying to push the PBKs out, but lets not avoid the original question or lose track of the topic. The quote above kind of says part of what I am getting at. If Dixit is your spiritual Father, who is Shiva? I don't think there is any need to talk of people leaving the forum.

Referring Baba Virendra Dev Dixit as our spiritual Father does not mean that He is the Supreme Soul. Just as the BKs believe that Brahma Baba is the first man or the only child of ShivBaba, we believe that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is going to get revealed as Prajapita (Father of human souls) in the end. So, that way he is our spiritual Father. The term has been used only in comparison to the bodily/lokik Father. As regards Shiva, there is no doubt that He is the Father of all the souls, including human and animal souls.
Me attacking the PBKs (apparently) is another thread. The PBKs just happen to be on hand and I know little or nothing about the Vishnu Party, which kind of justifies this thread.

By the way, I wish to know if you consider BK organization also to be a cult. I am interested just because you write as a BK. :?
Gone are the days of blind innocent, yet ignorant faith. We want to know, and we want to move forward. I reserve the right to stir things up.

Indeed. :D

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post22 Feb 2007

freefall wrote:And mischievous too. I remember how this "scholar" of Vedanta heaped ridicule on Shankaracharya's interpretation of "aham brahmaasmi" (I am Brahman). She argued that if "I am Brahman" then why I was still searching for happiness. She told me that the real meaning of Upanishadic teaching was that Shiva is declaring "I am Brahman".

As evidence of Janki Kirpalani's further step towards Guru-hood, which is entirely contrary to Gyan, see; http://www.iyogi.eu/ where she is listed amongst the good and great.
iyogi wrote:Paramahamsa Hariharananda
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
Dadi Janki
Mother Meera
Amma

Is this really quite right?

Freefall, you must be the first real Brahmin I have met that become involved in the BKWSU. it is very interesting. In the West, BKs is usually a very lower middle class thing with a few working class members or uneducated matas thrown in ... and expected to perform the more menial tasks. (BKs taught in the West, call the caste Brahmin and the soul's element the Brahm or Brahmand).

I wish I knew the psychological terms for these techniques they use put it seems to be to be designed to hurt by attack, seeding an insecurity and then provide a salve for that pain, e.g. her " if you were Brahman ..." slap. I find it fairly ignorant and arrogant. It reminds me of osme of the other posts we get on this forum. Do you know what I mean?

Are they truly happy? I doubt it either. We are all just human beings, some more pretension than others.
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ex-l

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The Brahmakumaris' adoption of Bhakti rituals

Post16 Mar 2007

Hi.

I wanted to ask a question about the "What, Why, Who, How, When and Where" did the Brahmakumaris adopt Bhakti rituals?

In the West, the BKWSU have developed the habit of making festivals, celebrations, service events out of performing Bhakti rituals which, of course, were transformed in a BK way. I understand this also goes on in India, the obvious one being Raksha Bandan where a Senior Sister ties rahki on all the BK family.

They also do Diwali, Krishnajayanti, Shivratri and the old coconut cracking. I also saw Chanukah the Jewish candle lighting ceremony - which I think later developed to be used as a regular yukti with interfaith meetings and VIPs - and Christmas for Double Foreigners. Obviously, these are presented with a symbolic BK interpretation and often a New Age "Avyakt dance" by some white Sister.

From being fairly spontaneous fun and "naughty", e.g. Rakhi was the only right when you got to stay up really late because of the long queues to have one's thread tied, they became quite formalized ... turned back into unquestioned rituals, really.

Now, I am sure that the PBKs will prove that there is no indications to do these in the Murlis and plenty to oppose them. I would like to know the history of when they were started and by whom.
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mitra

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Post16 Mar 2007

8) It is said that whatever Brahma Kumaris do the world follows it. Because BK's are the foundation of the Human Tree.

IBHS
MITRA :)
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