Help with Brahma Kumaris Wikipedia Article

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Mr Green

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Post17 Jul 2007

Hi Friend

I am not Green 108 on wiki (although the BKs do believe we are one and the same). But I do know them personally ... I can pass on any questions you might have for them.

ardhanarisvara

not sure

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Re: ardhanarisvara assists with BKWSU-Article on Wiki

Post18 Jul 2007

Hello Abrahama Kumar!
abrahma Kumar wrote:Your first post is one that I find quite interesting. Given that your profile introduces your current status as one in which you are "questioning your BK beliefs", it appears as if your zeal and enthusiasm are sky high because you seem to have jumped in at the deep end with wiki page editing and all. Good luck.

In fact, it was the other way around. I am currently in the process of challenging my beliefs. And not just my beliefs but also whether the contact with the BKWSU and the (immense) influence it had on me has really benefited me. I tend to think that it did the opposite.

Just a few weeks ago I started looking for information about the BKWSU, outside of the BKWSU. For this I used the WWW. I also found a book with citical information about the BKWSU.

In this process, I came across the English language Wiki page. Only there I found the address of this forum. So I got involved with editing the article prior to ever visiting this board. Had I known of this place, or in fact any other support forum for people in the process of questioning their affiliation with the BKs, I would probably have gone there first.

While with the BKWSU I sensed - in retrospect - that the teachers tend to present a very friendly picture of the belief system and leave out the more darker aspects. Those would be introduced only by time when one had already accepted very much and one's way of thinking had already been changed. This impression was reinforced when I read independent texts that revealed some things that I did not know because I did never get invloved with the BKWSU that far.

I saw this tendency repeated in the Wikipedia article. So I wanted to add something to the article that would make it more balanced.

I think for Christian readers it is an important information that Christian beliefs and "knowledge" of god are seen as less inspired by the BKWSU, and why. I don't think that this is a bad thing per se. Each and every religion sees itself as most inspired, I would think. Otherwise people would probably choose to convert to a more inspired religion. My emphasis was more on the side of why.

But there was also another reason:

I was also told when I first came to the BKWSU that anybody practicing Raja Yoga would be able to still be a Christian, a Hindu or Buddhist or whatever faith she came from. Later I discovered that this was not really true. I did not mind much as I was looking for a religion I could believe in anyway. And now I have read that this did not only happen in my particular centre but seems common practice. In retrospect, I think that I should have been more alarmed by such inconsistencies in what I was told there.

I put myself in the position of a Christian person that came to a BKWSU basic course and wanted to know more about this organisation that she (or he) has come in contact with. I think it would be important for her to know that she has been told something at least not entirely true. And the Wikipedia is the number one online information source for many people.
ardha, care to tell us anything more about yourself as relates to your experiences with the BKWSU?

Yes, I plan to write an introductory post. I just wanted to post what was on my soul first. But I will do it in its own thread, not here. Just quick answers to your questions:
How long have you been a student?

I went to the basic course about three years ago. I have not been a regular student all the time since then, though.
Have you been to Madhuban?

No.
Have you ever had the chance to visit any BKWSU bookstore?

No. Just the books section in the centers that I visited.
ardhanarisvara, what prompts you to share your Wiki experiences here? Is it on the hunch that wiki persona "Green108" is the same as http://www.BrahmaKumaris.info forum member "Mr. Green"? If so, maybe you can send him a private message (pm).

In this forum, I found many people who know about the BKWSU from an inside perspective but are also critical of it. I thought that here I could perhaps find people that had the same interest as me in editing the Wikipedia article and thus helping people to get a better balanced picture of the BKWSU and its belief system. That this thread already existed seemed to prove that. I sought the company of like minded people.

I also thought that maybe there are people here that are more invlolved in this Wikipedia "edit war" and could tell me about their thoughts about the motives of the people editing the article on the Wikipedia.
Also interesting to observe your feedback that some actions may be "counterproductive to revealing the truth about the BKWSU"; and then you go on to imply that your edits were based on "what I (you) learned in the center from the BKs!" and further that, "I (you) just don't have any physical evidence of that". Ardha, given all this uncertainty one would be brave indeed to 'publish' their "unsupported" thoughts on the www.

Yes, maybe it was a mistake to publish in the Wikipedia in such a disputed article. I don't see a problem with posting it elasewhere on the www though, because then it is just from my personal experience point of view and not with the demands of an encyclopedia entry.
Did you have any intention to add a disclaimer to your edits on the wiki page?

No.
Also, your access relevant resource material seems a bit on the "thin" side,

Yes. That is exaclty why I came here. To look for people who might help with that. But I also wonder whether perhaps some points are deliberately left out of the printed material distributed by the BKWSU and only told orally, because they could be cited and that would perhaps shed a bad light on the BKWSU in the eyes of some people?
so one wonders what will be the basis on which you will "set the article right"?

I did not want to set the whole article right. I just wanted to add what I know and help make it less POV. (POV = Point Of View, something forbidden by Wikipedia rules.) Oftentimes the latter is achieved by simple changing an "is" into an "is believed to be". I also realised that I couldn't "set the article right" on my own. That is why I posted here. To get support.
Actually, I am a student with the BKWSU but - for the sheer hell of it - I have to confess I have NO evidence back up any of any of your claims. Maybe one of the other forum members can assist. Any specific info you need?

I'd like to know in this context; what exatly is wrong about my addition to the article from a BK point of view? (Including the correction I made below).
Maybe the BKWSU Thinking Positively course will help you to overcome the affliction of a mind that is not in too good shape?

No thank you. I've already had that one. And I think it, and much of what I learned at the BKWSU and believed and practised, has probably hurt my shape of mind rather than making it better.
Is it this mind inconvenience which leads you to share with us that, "Frankly, I am (you are) not willing to read the lakhs of lines of discussion before ever contributing anything to the (wiki) article."?

Sorry, I don't understand that question. Probably my English is not good enough. What is meant by "mind inconvenience"?
If so, maybe a little time selective reading of forum content may answer some of your questions. You may even be able to avoid reading "lakhs of lines"?

I figured as much. Nevertheless, I wanted to share my experience with the Wikipedia article here, since this is the thread about this very article the process of its edition. And maybe someone here could have explained to me what was going on in this "edit war", who the involved parties are, where the frontlines lie, what has been deleted by whom and why it could not be put back into the article.

Is there anything wrong with that from your perspective?
Hope you get well soon ardhanarisvara.

Get well? Do you think I am ill?
Good luck.

Thank you.
P.S. ardhanarisvara, was it your comments on the wiki page as follows: Therefore Christian Gyan (spiritual knowledge) is seen as being impure while Brahma Kumaris Gyan is seen as the pure truth.? If so, you may also find discussed elsewhere on this site the tendency that the BKs have of arrogantly looking at the world from a viewpoint of their own "oblox". As far as I know there is no such thing as "Christian Gyan". Same tendency cropped up when a BK was discussing a biblical figure reaching the "angelic stage".

You are right. The (in my eyes) correct sentence would have been; "Therefore Christian beliefs about the nature of God, the soul and the world is seen as being impure, while Brahma Kumaris spiritual knowledge (Gyan) about these points is seen as the pure truth."

Could you live with that?

I find it rude of that person Green108 to just delete the whole addition. It would have been nice if he or she would have just explained to me what s/he found to be wrong about it. I would like to use this forum as a place where one could collaboratively find a version of this addition that is correct and backed up with references, if there is in fact any truth to it, which I believe.

Kind regards,

Ardhana.

ardhanarisvara

not sure

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Post18 Jul 2007

Hi Mr. Green!
mr green wrote:I am not Green 108 on wiki (although the BKs do believe we are one and the same). But I do know them personally ... I can pass on any questions you might have for them.

I would like to know what their motivation is. And whether they are BKs, PBKs, ex-BKs or in what other way they are related to the BKWSU.

Thanks,

Ardhana.

ardhanarisvara

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Re: ardhanarisvara assists with BKWSU-Article on Wiki

Post18 Jul 2007

Hello!
ardhanarisvara wrote:Yes, maybe it was a mistake to publish in the WP in such a disputed article. I don't see a problem with posting it elasewhere on the www though, because then it is just from my personal experience point of view and not with the demands of an encyclopedia entry.

I would like to add that I am pretty much uncertain about everything right now. When the very foundation of how you see the world and yourself is rocked that happens.

As I am now very unsure about my beliefs in BK "religion" and as this had become the foundation of my view of myself and the world, this is the case with me. I am also told that this is not uncommon for people leaving a cult. And I am told that the BKWSU is a cult.

Kind regards,

Ardhana.
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ex-l

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Re: ardhanarisvara assists with BKWSU-Article on Wiki

Post18 Jul 2007

ardhanarisvara wrote:I would like to add that I am pretty much uncertain about everything right now. When the very foundation of how you see the world and yourself is rocked that happens.

Welcome aboard ardhana ... I am sorry to hear you feel like that BUT it is just the way it is. Some folks get it really bad and take it takes years to change and so, yes, I think this define the cult-likeness of the way the BKWSU is now. I do not blame them that this was the way it was intended. Only the human beings made it that way. And, yes, it scrabbles your mind at quite a deep level.

Its a wonder that folks keep turning up here with EXACTLY the same experience, nevermind where in the world or when they took Gyan. I think this forum is a great place to work things out with like minds from all sides of the great BK divide.

Be prepared to be shocked by some of the revellations. Your center-in-charge probably does not even know half of it.

The Wikipeida is a mad house, its attracts neurotics and psychopaths. do not take it personally it someone whacks you. It is just like a computer war game for a lot of the folks on there.

But get involved and kick ass back. Use it as therapy and service. I'll get back to you later once I read what you wrote.

Do you have any BK books at home where this stuff was written down, or is it all just the tricky "word of mouth" stuff you mention.
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abrahma kumar

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Thank you ardhanarisvara

Post18 Jul 2007

ardhanarisvara, THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSES 8).

As i read it, it was reply that filled me in on "just where you are at". I am sure that as your footing becomes more certain on whatever path you choose for yourself we will forever appreciate and learn from your contributions on the forum.

The immediate aim in this post is to acknowledge your individuality, honesty and courage; will respond to the clarifications you sought once i am able to spend a little more time on the site.

To share a little bit about myself as relevant to the generality of your post: i confess to taking up a stance amongst the "exiting BK" fraternity. Not yet fully an ex as I am working my way through my own personal challenges. The situations I face (and my currrent capacity to deal with them) mean that I am still "plugged into the organisation", so to speak, but I definitely no longer view the BKWSU through rose-tinted lenses.

I am in no doubt that my very first post on this site - and all others since - signalled a new phase in my life's journey, and although I do not regret coming into contact with the Brahma Kumaris I find that my eyes have opened and what i now see and learn about the BKWSU can not be simply swept under the carpet or left in the margins as "small matters in the great scheme of things".

Om Shanti ardhanarisvara and do enjoy the forum.
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alladin

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hi!

Post18 Jul 2007

Hi Ardhana, welcome on board.

It's been really something for me to shift from thinking, at first, that the BKWSU was a harmless extended welcoming spiritual family, a straightforward meditation school to developing distaste for some aspects of it. Witnessing many wrongdoings, nonsense and inconsistencies, made the thought dawn that it may be a sect, a cult in which I've become involved without even realizing it and which got into my system, into the meanders of my mind like a giant octopus. Slimy, but having a firm grip on the vulnerable spots of its followers. I am sure the Forum will prove invaluable for u as it did for many of us.

So, have a good ride, thank you in advance for sharing your impressions and experiences.
Best wishes.
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Mr Green

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Post20 Jul 2007

ardhanarisvara wrote:I would like to know what their motivation is. And whether they are BKs, PBKs, ex-BKs or in what other way they are related to the BKWSU.

Their motives, my friend, are probably the same as yours, to define the BKs in a balanced way, with all the negative aspects intact.

You see, if you go back far enough in the history of the article you will see how much it has been changed and with how much vigour the BKs have attempted to just whitewash it into a piece of propaganda for themselves.

I am sorry if your piece was deleted, but I assure you everyone who has attempted to contribute there has had their work deleted. I used to contribute myself but as far as I know all of my work has been deleted and all of that was entirely factual.

I no longer have the energy to work on the article because the techniques and attitudes of the BKs just left me feeling sick. Such calculated dishonesty. I would rather spend my time with decent people

Good luck with it, just post anything here if you want a message to get to them, they read this forum too.
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ex-l

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Post20 Jul 2007

Just, get involved and voice your opinions and experience. Don't let anyone, let alone the BKWSU Internet PR Team frighten you off.

At some point the sociologists and cult watch groups are going to make a field day of the BKWSU Wikipedia Discussion pages, which you will have to admit, are quite a remarkable documentation of the mindset of BKs. Those guys still have the tentacles working through their minds. You are right, it is a very gradual slippery, all possessing experience.

I am interested in your experience, how they could be so similar to others and what your opinion is of what is going on?

Please attempt to document your experiences; not out of bitterness, or what the likes of them would call "defamtion" or revenge, but just calmly and objectively so that others can be saved from them and those that are committing them will have their attention drawn to issues that they justify with Gyan or ignore.

For us old timers, you have to understand the disappointment we feel about the way the organization has gone and all the revellations ... the re-writing, the historical revision, the beatings and the banishments, and all this manic PR BS they are investing in.

God Bless BKs that just want to do good and tell it how it is, I hope that they rise up within the organization and put an end to all the above.
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Mr Green

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Post20 Jul 2007

Nice words there.
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alladin

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Post20 Jul 2007

Yes, Mr Green we all eventually get to the point where we realize that it was
Such calculated dishonesty. And that.... I would rather spend my time with decent people

When ex L mentions feelings of bitterness and revenge that some old timers may have felt due to disappointments from the Yagya, I think that the Forum proves being a good instrument to channel these negative emotions in a more constructive direction; sharing, communicating, not feeling isolated, depressed , guilty or frustrated but part of a tribe that has as its main object healing through increased awareness and legitimated open minded queries.

This is so different from being " anti" or defaming!! However, the forum is certainly getting slandered in this way. But no surprise: the BK factory for stickers, stamps, brands, labels, stereotypes and dogmas, is a big one!
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abrahma kumar

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This is so different from being " anti" or defamin

Post20 Jul 2007

alladin wrote:Yes Mr Green we all eventually get to the point where we realize that it was such calculated dishonesty. And that ... I would rather spend my time with decent people. When ex-l mentions feelings of bitterness and revenge that some old timers may have felt due to disappointments from the Yagya, I think that the Forum proves being a good instrument to channel these negative emotions in a more constructive direction, sharing, communicating, not feeling isolated, depressed , guilty or frustrated, but part of a tribe that has as its main object healing through increased awareness and legitimated open minded queries. This is so different from being " anti" or defaming!! However the forum is certainly getting slandered in this way, but no surprise: th BK factory for stickers, stamps, brands, labels, stereotypes and dogmas, is a big one

Nice. Very nice indeed. See what your presence inspires from the party ardhanarisvara? Let's dance! Thanks Alladin. Your vision of the forum as a place in which we can constructively channel negative emotions brings an instant smile to my face. Such darshan taps right into my positive emotions; and i feel no need to resist. Thanks. A decent person indeed you are and I could not agree more. What about this song as an expression of the fruit of tasted by us, Baba's chanellers of negative emotions?

P.S. Really, i do not sit for hours planning this song/lyric oblox that often accompanies many of the posts I make. It just happens and I am sure that I need my head examined. The way that I hear the song that I have linked to - "Flowers" performed by a group called The Emotions - sounds like healing to me. Check out the lyrics you might feel healed too; and if you have the recording in your collection when last you played it?

Who was it on the forum that observed and asked:
abe ...I defy anyone NOT to get the shivers when listening to wholehearted, classic Motown music or soul. What is that and how do we understand it.?

Pure vibes sung, not spoken, by souls that have a lot to rejoice about. Thanks ex-l.
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